Jezrien, Shards, and the identity of the Broken One

[Cayden]

Actually does fit in some ways, we know that a person has to be prepared before they can pick up a shard safely from Vin. If she hasnt touched the WoE then it would have harmed or killed her.

 

So you might well be right that taking up the shard put him into a type of coma and that the highstorm is the subconscious mind of Honor, and that is why the highstorm visions hold flashbacks, im not quite sure how much information Harmony could gleam about his shards previous owners but I think it was quite substantial so it seems like shards do carry residual memory of their actions.

 

So what if Honor knew he was dying, and deliberately set it up so that Jezrien took the shard, or the remnants or flat out forced him to take it, in a last ditched effort to save all, even knowing that it would harm him. Jezrien would probably have agreed anyway but it could be an interesting possibility.

[Cromptj]

I always thought that Preservation made it so whoever was to replace him had to be prepared so someone did not pick it up who could not defeat Ruin.

[ccstat]

I agree that "drooling" refers to Jezrien. First, note that Darkness could very well have been speaking metaphorically. He could just be saying, "Jez is senile up in those storms and doing absolutely nothing useful." This interpretation is kind of funny to me because "drooling" might be an oblique reference to the amount of rain that gets dumped by the storms. Oooo, insult!

 

However, I've been been thinking that there are a few ways for his body to still be around to drool mindlessly. One option is the already-invoked different-and-weird-things-happen-when-you-only-hold-part-of-a-shard idea. This seems unlikely to me. Another possibility comes to mind:

Remember that Vin and Sazed took up their shards via the physical realm, while Kelsier did so via the cognitive. What if Jezrien was looking into Shadesmar when Honor died, and he reached out to grab what was left? In this scenario it is possible that Jez's mind could end up directing the shardic pieces while his body got left behind.

 

I'm basing this idea on the interpretation that while everything exists in all 3 realms, spren (and dead crewleaders) are primarily cognitive, while humans (and presumably Heralds) are mostly physical. I think it's reasonable to assume that actions would have a different effect if you are out of your element. Brandon has said it's possible to actually go to Shadesmar, or to simply peer in with your mind.

 

 

Also, since I didn't see anyone else respond:

I've seen these hints about Kelsier before, but I'm not sure what they reference. I read the Mistborn trilogy and AoL, admittedly awhile ago, but I don't remember anything about him obtaining any part of shard. Did I miss something or is it in another book?

No, it's not stated overtly in the books. The relevant WoB quotes are here and here. Also worth looking at the coppermind page on Kelsier.

[FirstSelector]

ccstat, I really like your idea.  Just like ones physical form is taken and vaporized when one picks up a Shard in the Physical realm, perhaps taking up a Shard in the Cognitive realm does the same for one's consciousness.  However, this leaves one's body behind with probably only limited mental capacity.

[Moogle]

ccstat, I really like your idea.  Just like ones physical form is taken and vaporized when one picks up a Shard in the Physical realm

 

Their bodies aren't really 'vaporized' so much as spread-out. They still exist - Ati and Leras' bodies were still there, after all. I'm not really sure if it supports this theory, but it's still interesting to think of Jezrien as being the actual Stormfather. It doesn't feel right, but maybe.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Their bodies aren't really 'vaporized' so much as spread-out. They still exist - Ati and Leras' bodies were still there, after all. I'm not really sure if it supports this theory, but it's still interesting to think of Jezrien as being the actual Stormfather. It doesn't feel right, but maybe.

I hadn't ever really thought about where ati and Laras bodies were before they appeared. Is there a WoB that stated they were just "spread-out"? Could it be the body is pushed more into the cognitive or spiritual realm when a shard is taken up?

[Moogle]

I hadn't ever really thought about where ati and Laras bodies were before they appeared. Is there a WoB that stated they were just "spread-out"? Could it be the body is pushed more into the cognitive or spiritual realm when a shard is taken up?

 

There's this (which was really hard to find, darnit Theoryland):

 

 

Yados

Does Sazed's biological body still exist somewhere? If so, does that body still possess Feruchemical abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it does exist, though kind of...blended-in, so to speak, as happened with the others when they ascended. Yes, it still has his abilities, though they are kind of moot now.

(Source)

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Thanks for that... Though his vague description of it still leaves room for the possibility of that blending in being into the spiritual or cognitive realm. He just doesn't want to give details about the process yet

[alylime]

Perhaps this is why the Emuli worship Jezrien as a god.

 

 

They worship Jezrien, though they don't accept him as a figure from the Vorin religion.  They name him the only god."

(Ch. 55 of WoK)

[Moogle]

Thanks for that... Though his vague description of it still leaves room for the possibility of that blending in being into the spiritual or cognitive realm. He just doesn't want to give details about the process yet

 

Maybe, but that would be really weird. Imagine you're Shallan in Shadesmar, and see this corpse zooming around Shadesmar as the Shard focuses on various parts of the planet. Spiritual... we know next to nothing of the Spiritual, so I can't offer anything there. Of special note is that Surgebinding and summoning Shardblades tends to result in frost, condensation, or cold, and we see no frost on Leras' or Ati's bodies when they are summoned. (Unspoken assumption: Shardblades are kept in the Spiritual; this is because there is a WoB saying you could use Hemalurgy to steal a Shardblade, and there is a note in the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum that Hemalurgy deals with the Spiritual.)

 

The bodies being more spread-out would alleviate some issues there. Not enough information to say, really. I think the theory is something of a stretch because the easiest answer (that makes sense, given the beggar in the prologue) is that Jezrien is a drunkard and constantly drooling, but I like it nonetheless. Jezrien being called the Stormfather and there being a Stormfather that Kaladin sees is certainly suggestive.

[zandi]

Interesting possibilities.

 

 

 However, this leaves one's body behind with probably only limited mental capacity.

 

Exactly. 

 

 

“Have you seen me?” the man asked with slurred speech. He laughed, then began to speak in gibberish, reaching for a wineskin. So it was drink after all.”

 

 

 

It is worth noting that Szeth assumes the "drooling man" is a drunkard because he sees him reach for a wineskin. He does not "know" he is drunk. It could be that if that is Jez that he is not drunk - he just has reduced mental capabilities because the bulk of his thoughts are holding parts of Honor as suggested in the cognitive realm. And he happens to be reaching toward a wineskin...

[Dros]

I always thought that Preservation made it so whoever was to replace him had to be prepared so someone did not pick it up who could not defeat Ruin.

 

It might have been the last gambit of a dying, desperate god. During his vision, he seemed frustrated that he didn't foresee Odium coming after him, perhaps he went to his old champion because he didn't have time to prepare and he thought that was his best bet.  

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I always thought that Preservation made it so whoever was to replace him had to be prepared so someone did not pick it up who could not defeat Ruin.

I'm almost certain I read a q&a somewhere where Brandon talked about how preservation singled out vin from a very early age and was preparing her to replace him. It's one if the reasons ruin took an interest in her, to thwart preservation's plans for her. My brain is too fried from a long day though to scour the web for that interview.

[Bloodfalcon]

I wouldn't be doing my duty as a 17th Sharder if I did not cite the line I just heard in my re[listen]. 

When this theory was posted, I thought it was really interesting, and anyone can tell you that I am all about theorizing a good twist of understanding. Then I questioned it above as I started to think about it, but I still really liked it just for being fun. NOW I heard a quote that is close enough to discredit it in my mind, but that is not to say I don't still appreciate this post enough for my upvote! I'll get at it now, sorry.

In the scene where Kaladin is "riding the storm" and sees Szeth, a voice speaks to him - that big ole head in the storm. I'm not sure if it is Stormfather Jezrien or if it is Memory-Tanavast, but he specifically says "Odium reins." If OP quote didn't use exactly the same word, I would be less sure. But that is dead on. I consider my question about Cultivation answered, and I consider my mind made up that Odium is the Broken One. Looking back, I don't think I can make the argument that the statement would be more significant referring to one over the other, so I wouldn't expect anyone to change their minds if the prefer the Jezrien theory, but I figured I would come give some evidence that countered it for me at least.

[Argent]

I always thought of a Sliver as holding a small amount of the Shard, but larger than a splinter. Do we have WOB stating it is the full shard but for a short time? TLR held it for quite some time, didn't he?

If splinter<Sliver<Shard is true, would Jezrien as the Stormfather be somewhere between Shard and Sliver?

 

A Sliver is a human who has held (most of) the power of a Shard for a short period of time, and has then lost it - see the Lord Ruler and Vin. A Splinter is a "living" construct of a Shard's power - it was never alive, it was created in an animate form. We know this.

[marianmi]

I already proposed this a while ago, so I am repeating myself: What if "3 of the 16 ruled" does not include Odium? What if Odium was on Braize, so there would be Honor, Cultivation + another shard ? My theory in relation to this was that the corners of the surgebinding shard contains "pure" splinter-spren from each shard - Syl honorspren, Wyndle cultivationspren, Cryptics adonalsiumspren, and Stormwarden-spren from the 3rd shard.

 

"Now the broken one rules" - I think the broken one is Adonalsium. Honorspren, cultivationspren and stormspren used to rule Shadesmar, but now Cryptics rule.

Edited January 23, 2014 by marianmi

[Argent]

According to a very old Q&A we had here, however, only three Shards have ever existed on Roshar.

[Vortaan]

Well thought out. I like it. The only thing I would quantify is that Heralds seem to have -limited- immortality. They can get slain, and that makes me wonder if they also need to eat, drink etc. If so, and Jezerin is disconnected from his body somehow, who is taking care of it and where?

[marianmi]

According to a very old Q&A we had here, however, only three Shards have ever existed on Roshar.

 

Yes. But what's to say Odium (or the other 3rd shard) "existed on Roshar"?

Did Odium exist on Sel? Who was ruling on Roshar if/when Odium existed on Sel? Still 3 of the 16?

This "3 shards ever existed on Roshar" can be interpreted in different ways. Maybe 3 shards existed all the time - one left, another came ... still 3 existed.

 

 

EDIT: also, my main point was that The Broken One is Adonalsium, and the quote was referring to Cryptics, spren of Adonalsium, being the current rulers of Shadesmar.

Edited January 23, 2014 by marianmi

[don_karma_II]

I believe that Jezrien is the storm father.The voice in the storm calls Kaladin 'child of honor, one long since gone' or something like that. So it can't be memory of tanavast. It can't be odium either as again it says 'odium reigns'. Hoid says he came to roshar to find someone but instead he is forced to hide from him. Hoid probably came to convince Jezrien to refund the knightsradiant again.

[don_karma_II]

I believe that Jezrien is the storm father.The voice in the storm calls Kaladin 'child of honor, one long since gone' or something like that. So it can't be memory of tanavast. It can't be odium either as again it says 'odium reigns'. Hoid says he came to roshar to find someone but instead he is forced to hide from him. Hoid probably came to convince Jezrien to refound the knightsradiant again.

[Guest Alaxel]

Very cool theory and good thinking, but I just can't get on board.

We have WoB that the Heralds are human. We also have very strong circumstantial evidence that the Stormfather is a super powerful spren. In the WoR pre-release chapters, Syl tells Kaladin that she is the only honorspren to have crossed from Shadesmar to the Physical Realm and that she defied the Stormfather to do it; honorspren are forbidden to make the journey. Shadesmar is the realm of the spren. So if the Stormfather hangs out in Shadesmar and is a big shot-caller there, Occam's Shardblade would suggest that the Stormfather is a powerful spren, not a Herald.

We have WoB about Kelsier preventing a bad time by managing Preservation while it had no holder. We also have WoB that spren serve as a release valve for all the extra power on Roshar. I propose that a spren took up the bulk of Splintered Honor and that transformed it into the Stormfather.

Actually my theory is essentially identical to the OP. Just replace Jezrien with a spren.

EDIT: Also, a wild and baseless speculation: the face in the highstorm was addressing Syl, not Kaladin.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Alaxel

[Bloodfalcon]

Very cool theory and good thinking, but I just can't get on board.

We have WoB that the Heralds are human. We also have very strong circumstantial evidence that the Stormfather is a super powerful spren. In the WoR pre-release chapters, Syl tells Kaladin that she is the only honorspren to have crossed from Shadesmar to the Physical Realm and that she defied the Stormfather to do it; honorspren are forbidden to make the journey. Shadesmar is the realm of the spren. So if the Stormfather hangs out in Shadesmar and is a big shot-caller there, Occam's Shardblade would suggest that the Stormfather is a powerful spren, not a Herald.

We have WoB about Kelsier preventing a bad time by managing Preservation while it had no holder. We also have WoB that spren serve as a release valve for all the extra power on Roshar. I propose that a spren took up the bulk of Splintered Honor and that transformed it into the Stormfather.

Actually my theory is essentially identical to the OP. Just replace Jezrien with a spren.

EDIT: Also, a wild and baseless speculation: the face in the highstorm was addressing Syl, not Kaladin.

Id rather it be a spren than Jez, but humans can go to Shadesmar, and Heralds would know all about travel in and out of there if only though talking to the Orders that could do it. I imagine most have done so. 

[Aleksiel]

So if the Stormfather hangs out in Shadesmar and is a big shot-caller there, Occam's Shardblade would suggest that the Stormfather is a powerful spren, not a Herald.

 

 I propose that a spren took up the bulk of Splintered Honor and that transformed it into the Stormfather.

Actually my theory is essentially identical to the OP. Just replace Jezrien with a spren.

I am not convinced on this Stormfather=spren theory. First, Syl didn't really say she came from the Cognitive realm or that the Stormfather was there. Even if he was in Shadesmar, that doesn't prove he is spren since human can access Shadesmar after certain circumstances are met. Second, nowhere has it been stated that Splintered Shard can be picked up by a non-human. All Shardholders we know of were in fact human.

[dionysus]

I already proposed this a while ago, so I am repeating myself: What if "3 of the 16 ruled" does not include Odium? What if Odium was on Braize, so there would be Honor, Cultivation + another shard ? My theory in relation to this was that the corners of the surgebinding shard contains "pure" splinter-spren from each shard - Syl honorspren, Wyndle cultivationspren, Cryptics adonalsiumspren, and Stormwarden-spren from the 3rd shard.

 

"Now the broken one rules" - I think the broken one is Adonalsium. Honorspren, cultivationspren and stormspren used to rule Shadesmar, but now Cryptics rule.

 

I can't fully support your theory but I do agree that Cryptics are adonalsiumspren and the Broken One could refer to Adonalsium and be a reference for Cryptics in Shadesmar.