Theory: Kaladin meant to to wield a Shardblade? (Spoilers)

[Punter]

I'm sorry if this all comes out as rambling, it goes against several other theories about shardblades, and may be a bit weak, but I'm sort of just building off something I came up with.

 

*Spoilers follow*

 

We know from the Well of Ascension plot twist, that Brandon Sanderson likes a good plot twist, especially in relation to corruption, so is it possible we're meant to have one here?

 

The Knights Radiant wielded shardblades given to them by the heralds (agents of Honor) in the last desolation, but yet Syl (and Honorspren) in referring to Dalinar's forfeited shardblade remarks:

 

"It just feels wrong to me. I hate it. I'm glad he got rid of it. Makes him a better man"

 

Now is it just me, or is hate a fairly strong emotion, an emotion that would be more at home with someone affiliated with Odium rather than Honor? Now I understand that Odium provokes hatred from others, so if the Shardblades are of Odium, they would provoke hatred from someone affiliated with honor, like Syl and like Kaladin when he passed up on the blade earlier. But in the alternative could Odium seek to triumph on Roshar by corrupting the now splintered Honor to make the spren of the Knights Radiant 'hate' the shardblades the Knights Radiant so effectively wielded, and separate the Knights Radiant from their weapons.  

 

 

[hoser]

Welcome! Upvote for first post thread-starting and creativity!

 

Just wanting to understand your theory. Is it the following?

Odium has corrupted the Nahel Bond spren to hate the Radiantblades that are fine and essential to victory in order to prevent resurgent Radiants from using them. 

Edited January 2, 2014 by hoser

[Colby Jack]

If Kaladin is destined to be a KR, then he must have a shard weapon to compliment his powers and position. He probably won't pick up one of the abandoned shardblades though. I like to think they're contaminated, like if you cracked an egg and leave it to sit for... oh, a couple thousand years. Maybe the corruption can be reversed if a real KR or someone with Honor's powers touches them, but there has to be a way for new shards to be created to replace the old.

On that subject, just how cool would it be for Kaladin to just spontaneously create a Shardblade out of thin air? In front of everyone? A little bit of poetic justice for Sadeas and the little quip he made at the end of the Way of Kings. Man, I can't wait for the next book.

 

[ReaderAt2046]

I personally suspect that the problem Syl has with the Shardblades is that they are being wielded by people who have not yet (in the best cases)/never will (in most cases) earn them. If I'm right, only a full Radiant, who has sworn all five Oaths, is supposed to bear Shards. Therefore, all Shardbearers (even Dalinar and Adolin) are using weapons and armor that they have no right to.

[IllNsickly]

IMHO, the reason Fabrial Science hasn't been able to recreate Shardblades is because they aren't BUILT... they are created by the bond between a Spren and its bonded person after that person has spoken all of the Ideals respective to their Orders.

If you are in possession of an Abandoned Blade, you: have no right to it and are in possession of something that has most likely been corrupted by Odium or his influence since the Recreance.

A few more of my pennies to the pile.

[Gloom]

A Knight Radiant without Shards is doomed in my opinion. Fighting Thunderclasts without Shards would be very similar to fighting a Shardbearer without Shards, except you probably can't take it down with a dagger to the eye. To kill a Thunderclast without a Shardblade appears to require blunt instruments such as hammers.

 

This, along with the fact that Tanavast instructed Dalinar to restore the Radiants and the Shards they once bore leads me to believe that Kaladin will bear Shards in the future.

 

That being said, it was an interesting theory.

[vikorr]

Hi Gloom, how did the world fight prior to the Knights Radiant?

 

That question brings me to one of the most intriguing quotes in tWoK - found in the Prelude to Book One, Part One "The stone ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted out sections where surgebinders had fought. Less frequently, he passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free..."

[Punter]

Yes hoser! Thanks for getting that in a nutshell!

 

We know that something has happened to the relationship between the KR and the shardblades, but I was just thinking what if the corruption or the change wasn't necessarily in the blades themselves but the way that they were perceived. If odium refers to intense hatred, if Rayse had somehow acted to induce hatred in such formidable weapons, it would be consistent with the words of Syl.

[The Count]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Syl a Splinter of Honor?

 

I am not sure Odium would have the power to change the nature of such a being. Although I admit that this is merely a supposition.

 

My own feeling is that it is the use to which the Shardblades have been put that Syl is reacting to.

 

We know that on Roshar actions are significant and that spren (bond spren in particular) react strongly to the actions of individuals. In that light I could definitely see Syl reacting to the horrors that have been committed by the blade since it was abandoned by the Radiant who wielded it.

 

Her reaction to Dalinar's blade is a 'gut feeling' for her, she cannot explain why she feels like she does. Maybe she unconsciously senses Odium's hand in the use to which the blade was put. A symbol of hope and protection used as an implement of status and ego, war and power. Maybe her choice of words (the use of the word 'hate' in particular) is also an unconscious expression of these feelings. 

 

My point is, I guess: Both the Blades and the Spren are very highly invested. I am not sure that corrupting the nature of either one would be easy, even for another Shard. Much easier to corrupt people and the way they see the world than to target highly powerful objects / beings.

 

Once Tanavast was out of the way, he would be pushing against an open door.

Edited January 2, 2014 by The Count

[Scrutiny]

Could the shard blades be formed as part of the Nahel bond? 

 

This could be why they stopped glowing during the Recreance.  As the KR abandoned the shards the spren also abandoned the shard thus it stops glowing and becomes a shard with no spren investiture.  An unsponsored blade could be similar to a Parshman that has no form.

[Kier]

Could the shard blades be formed as part of the Nahel bond? 

 

This could be why they stopped glowing during the Recreance.  As the KR abandoned the shards the spren also abandoned the shard thus it stops glowing and becomes a shard with no spren investiture.  An unsponsored blade could be similar to a Parshman that has no form.

 

I find this likely and along the lines that I was thinking. 

 

I think that the Nahel bond and becomeing a KR requires you to make your own blade and plate. I think the unique factor of shardblades attests to that fact. I think they are created from the bond and house a bonded spren, or at least did. 

 

That leads me to an interesting question. Did the KR stop being Surgebinders when they left there plate and blade on the day of Recreance? although Brandon will probably just RAFO that. Did they put down there bond with their spren too? 

 

We know its possible because Syl says she can leave Kaladin. mmmm.

[Gloom]

Hi Gloom, how did the world fight prior to the Knights Radiant?

 

That question brings me to one of the most intriguing quotes in tWoK - found in the Prelude to Book One, Part One "The stone ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted out sections where surgebinders had fought. Less frequently, he passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free..."

 

Poorly. Ninety percent of the population was killed, and this was with the help of the Herlads. We don't even know when surgebinders appeared, but we know that while they may have made a difference, they certainly didn't provide an overwhelming advantage. After the Knight Radiants were founded though, Jezrien felt that they would be enough should another desolation occur. A new desolation without Knights Radiant or Heralds would likely mean annihilation.

 

The quote you listed was from the prequel IIRC, and while Kalak said surgebinders, we know that Knights Radiant existed at that time. They were almost certainly included in that statement, but in the event that not all Surgebinders were Knights Radiant, using the word surgebinders lumps them all together into one group.

 

The question then is were there free ranging surgebinders unaffiliated with the Knights Radiant, or were the standards of the Knights Radiant such that unless you have attained your Shards you were not considered to be a Knight Radiant regardless of your bond?

Edited January 2, 2014 by Gloom

[Aether]

The question then is were there free ranging surgebinders unaffiliated with the Knights Radiant, or were the standards of the Knights Radiant such that unless you have attained your Shards you were not considered to be a Knight Radiant regardless of your bond?

I've been trying to find the relevant WoB on this for the last 30 minutes, but alas! I cannot locate it.

 

But there is a WoB stating that, while all 10 KR Orders had access to Shardplate and -blade, some of them did not usually use them at all. This seems to suggest that the KR were defined by more than just their shards.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

I personally suspect that the problem Syl has with the Shardblades is that they are being wielded by people who have not yet (in the best cases)/never will (in most cases) earn them. If I'm right, only a full Radiant, who has sworn all five Oaths, is supposed to bear Shards. Therefore, all Shardbearers (even Dalinar and Adolin) are using weapons and armor that they have no right to.

Not nearly consistent with WoK. Sylphrena explicitly states that the shard makes him a worse man somehow, although she cannot explain how or why. She likes Dalinar for his honour, and giving it away made him a better man, as he does not possess a shardblade anymore. This is contrary to your suggestion.

Maybe the shardblades are not the radiantblades of the visions, and have either been swapped or corrupted. They are no longer operable honourably, if they ever were. If they were, I believe they never will be so again.

[Scrutiny]

OK maybe this is far fetched but the original purpose of the shards was to kill voidbringers (creatures of hate) right?  And if you look at the way a shardblade kills it literally cuts out the life force of the being it hits.  And since the blades we see now are no longer used to kill only void bringers but rather humans and other lives they have become corrupted by that hate.  That is why Syl hates them as a creature of honor and despising Odium as well.

 

So maybe the original purpose of KR shards was not to kill the corrupted life force but rather kill the corruption in the soul itself.  thus leaving the shell of the human, or parshman or ?  alive but kill the corrupting force within it. I do not want to add WoR spoilers to this thread but there are supporting arguments to this on the Front or back cover description about how magic can fill a soul, but couldn't corruption do that as well?

 

Just a theory but....

[Dysphoric Kitten]

Okay, let's assume all the information you supplied is true. Why would blades that kill humans be suddenly filled with an emotion? Why hate? And if it is simply the emotion (and not some part of Odium), and that is why Sylphrena despises and avoids it, how come she does not avoid, despise, or whatever, Kaladin when he says "lighteyes"?

[Scrutiny]

I never used the word emotion, but remember upon the Recreance these blades went dark.  There must have been something that made them glow, a spren, or piece of honor? that was no longer there. We now have a powerful yet empty weapon just waiting to host something new, why not a corrupted spren or a piece of odium.  The first use of these hollow blades was greed of the humans that first possessed them, couldn't this have opened up these shards for corruption? 

[Kier]

I never used the word emotion, but remember upon the Recreance these blades went dark.  There must have been something that made them glow, a spren, or piece of honor? that was no longer there. We now have a powerful yet empty weapon just waiting to host something new, why not a corrupted spren or a piece of odium.  The first use of these hollow blades was greed of the humans that first possessed them, couldn't this have opened up these shards for corruption? 

 

This is a good point. Its my theory that the blades/plate did house the bonded spren of the KR. Or something very similar. Maybe they could store stormlight in the blades and plate? I dunno, that thought just came to me. 

 

And we have to remember that Intent has a Huge roll in the magic system. and the Blade and Plate are pieces of the magic system. So its not that far fetched that once they were discared by the KR they were ready to be filled, with a different Intent. 

[Aether]

This is a good point. Its my theory that the blades/plate did house the bonded spren of the KR. Or something very similar. Maybe they could store stormlight in the blades and plate? I dunno, that thought just came to me.

While it seems likely that the KR could store Stormlight in their armour, I highly doubt they could do the same with Shardblades. Shardblades seem to be impervious to damage, and they seem to be completely independent of any outside source of fuel, neither of which a Shardplate is. While they might have a similar origin, they function rather differently.

 

I would also like to add that the ideas you're having here, that there might be a "vacuum" of sorts left within the shards when the KR abandoned them which could then be filled with something else. I would however like to point out that, while something changed when they were left behind, we have little if anything at this point to go on when trying to divine the nature of the shards.

[Moogle]

I never used the word emotion, but remember upon the Recreance these blades went dark.  There must have been something that made them glow, a spren, or piece of honor? that was no longer there. We now have a powerful yet empty weapon just waiting to host something new, why not a corrupted spren or a piece of odium.  The first use of these hollow blades was greed of the humans that first possessed them, couldn't this have opened up these shards for corruption? 

 

I'm not so sure Plate/Blades glowed because of Honor. Cultivation was likely just as involved with the Knights Radiant and their powers, to the degree that I almost wonder if Shardblades were of Honor and Shardplate was of Cultivation.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

I never used the word emotion, but remember upon the Recreance these blades went dark. There must have been something that made them glow, a spren, or piece of honor? that was no longer there. We now have a powerful yet empty weapon just waiting to host something new, why not a corrupted spren or a piece of odium. The first use of these hollow blades was greed of the humans that first possessed them, couldn't this have opened up these shards for corruption?

Please use the name Odium then, and not the emotion hate. When you say hate, it is completely different from a piece of Odium.

So, why would pieces of Odium attach themselves to blades at all, and why just them in particular, not the plate?

I'm not so sure Plate/Blades glowed because of Honor. Cultivation was likely just as involved with the Knights Radiant and their powers, to the degree that I almost wonder if Shardblades were of Honor and Shardplate was of Cultivation.

I like it. Seems just... fitting. Assuming the blade is actually of Honour and not Odium.

While it seems likely that the KR could store Stormlight in their armour, I highly doubt they could do the same with Shardblades. Shardblades seem to be impervious to damage, and they seem to be completely independent of any outside source of fuel, neither of which a Shardplate is. While they might have a similar origin, they function rather differently.

Are we sure that the blades cannot harm one another? This may well be how 4.5 millennia later, we barely have any more shards.

[Daishi5]

One thing kind of bothers me about the shardblades.  Syl says she is an Honorspren, and she says that she binds things.  Her pranks were always about making things stick together.

 

Shardblades sever things.  They sever whatever bonds any material, and when they hit a person they sever the bond between the physical and the spirtual. 

 

The way a shardblade behaves seems completely the opposite of what Syl says Honorspren do.

[Kier]

One thing kind of bothers me about the shardblades.  Syl says she is an Honorspren, and she says that she binds things.  Her pranks were always about making things stick together.

 

Shardblades sever things.  They sever whatever bonds any material, and when they hit a person they sever the bond between the physical and the spirtual. 

 

The way a shardblade behaves seems completely the opposite of what Syl says Honorspren do.

 

 

mmmm. This is an intersting point. Good job. 

[Aether]

Are we sure that the blades cannot harm one another? This may well be how 4.5 millennia later, we barely have any more shards.

I think we can quite confidently assume so. We have several examples of battles between Shardbearers, and at no point is it ever alluded to any potential damage to any Shardblade, while the effects of the duels upon the Plate is described meticulously. And in chapter 52, "A Highway to the Sun", where Dalinar is witnessing the first moments of the Recreance, at no point does he include the destruction of Shardblades as a possible reason to why there are so few Blades left in modern times.

 

There might be a way to destroy a Shardblade but I propose that - if it is indeed possible - it is exceedingly hard or difficult to do, or at least that most people are ignorant of how to do it, and that this would thus mean that it practically never happens.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

You are right, Aether.

One thing kind of bothers me about the shardblades. Syl says she is an Honorspren, and she says that she binds things. Her pranks were always about making things stick together.

Shardblades sever things. They sever whatever bonds any material, and when they hit a person they sever the bond between the physical and the spirtual.

The way a shardblade behaves seems completely the opposite of what Syl says Honorspren do.

When I get onto my computer, I shall upvote you. That is a great point.