Copper compounding

[Oversleep]

Well, that explains that. Marsh is instrumental in Ruin's plans, Marsh gets many spikes.

 A little offtop, but do we even know why was Marsh so special to Ruin? I don't believe Ruin picked him out because Vin would be more hesitant to kill him - it was stated that Ruin doesn't grasp concepts such as love anymore.

[Voidus]

 A little offtop, but do we even know why was Marsh so special to Ruin? I don't believe Ruin picked him out because Vin would be more hesitant to kill him - it was stated that Ruin doesn't grasp concepts such as love anymore.

Knowledge of Vin and co. I always assumed.

[Edgedancer]

 A little offtop, but do we even know why was Marsh so special to Ruin? I don't believe Ruin picked him out because Vin would be more hesitant to kill him - it was stated that Ruin doesn't grasp concepts such as love anymore.

Given that Ruin was pretty sadisitc I think that "it might make them slightly uncomfortable or worse" seems like a perfectly valid reason for Ruin. Actually, i wouldn't be suprised if in modern times he'd just alter people's post to be the god of internet trolls or something.

[Thermophile]

 

 

• Possibly, the extra power will go towards placing memories in your brain that are contained in copperminds other than the one you burned. (which copperminds is determined randomly in case there isn't enough power to release the info in all of them)
• Alternatively, the power might travel along the spiritual connections you have with other people and retrieve some of their memories (in which case the specific connection(s) might be determined randomly)
• Maybe it's preferential selection according to physical proximity. You get memories contained in the cognitive aspects of nearby objects. Could be used for retrieving info out of a stolen coppermind, for instance (if you haven't got a trueself available).

I can probably think of several more sources of memories for use in compounding, given some time and motivation.

 

I basically just believe that the filter that determines the effect in copper compounding doesn't say 'specific memory A', but just 'memory' (or 'knowledge').

And while I must admit that it is possible that copper compounding will release a clearer/more intent/deeply engraved/whatever other adjective people have used version of the memory, IMO that's just not interesting enough.  I choose to believe that when mr. Sanderson writes a copper compounder, he will do it in a way that wows everyone.

First off: Sazed said that to put something in a coppermind, you had to memorize it to the extent you would remember it for five or ten minutes, and then put it in the coppermind so it would have enough strength to be useful. I believe this is what copper compounding affects.

Second: Copper compounding is something TLR could, and likely did, do. If it involved retrieving data from the cognitive aspects of nearby objects, we would see him be much more aware of some of the stuff going on. And perfect memory is something we're pretty sure he has, but is unexplained sofar.

Third: If copper compounding was,say, useful in an investigation, we would likely have heard about it by now, even if no known copper compounders existed at the time.

Lastly: I disagree with it not being interesting enough. Perfect memory has a variety of uses, beypnd even memorizing every written work known to man.

[Stormgate]

You can put any memory in a coppermind, they just memorize it to make it more useful.

[Thermophile]

Without memorizing, the memory is almost useless, you wouldn't remember it well enough to use it.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

First off: Sazed said that to put something in a coppermind, you had to memorize it to the extent you would remember it for five or ten minutes, and then put it in the coppermind so it would have enough strength to be useful. I believe this is what copper compounding affects.

 

I respect your beliefs and ask you to respect me disagreeing with them.

 

Second: Copper compounding is something TLR could, and likely did, do. If it involved retrieving data from the cognitive aspects of nearby objects, we would see him be much more aware of some of the stuff going on. And perfect memory is something we're pretty sure he has, but is unexplained sofar.

 

We know that TLR had the ability to copper compound, we don't know whether he used it, it could be as uncomfortable as allo-gold for all we know (if it's cognitive data retrieval). I really wish people would stop bringing up the 'perfect memory' bit. Just regular feru-copper would explain the appearance of perfect recall, especially to a society that has no knowledge of the existence of feruchemy, it's also never confirmed that TLR actually has perfect recall.

 

Third: If copper compounding was,say, useful in an investigation, we would likely have heard about it by now, even if no known copper compounders existed at the time.

 

If no known copper compounders existed, how would we have heard about it?

If copper compounding is more esoteric than reinforcing memories, it is also likely that the ability is misunderstood (especially given its probable rarity). Remember that the Terris don't even understand all of the base feruchemic abilities (i.e. aluminum and nicrosil).

 

Lastly: I disagree with it not being interesting enough. Perfect memory has a variety of uses, beyond even memorizing every written work known to man.

 

I said 'not interesting', I never claimed it couldn't be useful.

From a storytelling standpoint I just don't see much difference between having a memory permanently stuck in your brain and a memory that can be retrieved at any time from a coppermind. Also, if you squash every written work known to man into a single person's head, his brain would likely explode.

Edited December 28, 2015 by EagleOfTheForestPath

[Voidus]

We know that TLR had the ability to copper compound, we don't know whether he used it, it could be as uncomfortable as allo-gold for all we know (if it's cognitive data retrieval). I really wish people would stop bringing up the 'perfect memory' bit. Just regular feru-copper would explain the appearance of perfect recall, especially to a society that has no knowledge of the existence of feruchemy, it's also never confirmed that TLR actually has perfect recall.

Regular copper couldn't explain flawless memory that can remember someones face for decades, you'd have to comb through every coppermind you had for the faces of everyone you meet all the time, they'd degrade inside of an hour.

 

I said 'not interesting', I never claimed it couldn't be useful.

From a storytelling standpoint I just don't see much difference between having a memory permanently stuck in your brain and a memory that can be retrieved at any time from a coppermind. Also, if you squash every written work known to man into a single person's head, his brain would likely explode.

It allows you permanent access to it all the time without having to relearn it. With the memory stored in a coppermind you have to know that you need the memory in order to access it, it allows for no creative spontaneous use.

It's like the difference between a trained engineer and someone with access to engineering manuals.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

It's like the difference between a trained engineer and someone with access to engineering manuals.

 

Memory ≠ Understanding

[Voidus]

Memory ≠ Understanding

No but it leads to it if you actually retain it, your brain can't form new connections to that memory unless you actually keep it in your head.

[Oversleep]

Regular copper couldn't explain flawless memory that can remember someones face for decades, you'd have to comb through every coppermind you had for the faces of everyone you meet all the time, they'd degrade inside of an hour.

I feel obliged that everything depends on your indexing of memories. There are many ways to organize data structures and some are pretty effective, and with double zinc TLR would have nearly instantaneous access to any memory he wanted.

[Voidus]

I feel obliged that everything depends on your indexing of memories. There are many ways to organize data structures and some are pretty effective, and with double zinc TLR would have nearly instantaneous access to any memory he wanted.

True but faces in particular would be pretty difficult. How would you organize them? Plus even with Zinc that would mean that every time he sees a face he has to sort through a thousand years worth of memories of people.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

True but faces in particular would be pretty difficult. How would you organize them? Plus even with Zinc that would mean that every time he sees a face he has to sort through a thousand years worth of memories of people.

 Sure, because he's likely to meet someone a second time after anything more than half a century...

[Voidus]

 Sure, because he's likely to meet someone a second time after anything more than half a century...

So he's organizing them chronologically? Because then he would need to look through literally every face he's seen in the last generation. Plus while that's unlikely that's absolutely the person he'd want to remember the most since they're either a compounder or a worldhopper.

[Yata]

To me with the right set of index and the help of Feruchemical Zinc... Rashek may replicate "perfect memory" just with Feruchemy.

[Voidus]

To me with the right set of index and the help of Feruchemical Zinc... Rashek may replicate "perfect memory" just with Feruchemy.

He'd have to live pretty much perpetually in incredibly slow motion, which would mean that in his 1000 years of living he's probably experienced something more like 100,000 years. Not saying that that's impossible but I find it unlikely, particularly since the easiest interpretation of copper compounding is that it would perfectly allow for the perfect memory without needing to permanently compound Zinc.

On that topic there's also the question of whether or not he could actually fit that much memory in a coppermind, Sazed used multiple and he's only lived one life and that life has not mostly consisted of devoting absolutely everything he experiences to memory.

[Yata]

He'd have to live pretty much perpetually in incredibly slow motion, which would mean that in his 1000 years of living he's probably experienced something more like 100,000 years. Not saying that that's impossible but I find it unlikely, particularly since the easiest interpretation of copper compounding is that it would perfectly allow for the perfect memory without needing to permanently compound Zinc.

On that topic there's also the question of whether or not he could actually fit that much memory in a coppermind, Sazed used multiple and he's only lived one life and that life has not mostly consisted of devoting absolutely everything he experiences to memory.

Well I suppose that his "perfect memory" was a mix of Copper+Zinc, mystification of his real ability (He was "God" for the people after all) and of course a bit of acting.

[natc]

He'd have to live pretty much perpetually in incredibly slow motion, which would mean that in his 1000 years of living he's probably experienced something more like 100,000 years. Not saying that that's impossible but I find it unlikely, particularly since the easiest interpretation of copper compounding is that it would perfectly allow for the perfect memory without needing to permanently compound Zinc.

On that topic there's also the question of whether or not he could actually fit that much memory in a coppermind, Sazed used multiple and he's only lived one life and that life has not mostly consisted of devoting absolutely everything he experiences to memory.

Well Sazed's copperminds are supposed to house the entirety of the fruits of Keeper research, right? Even if he never reads most of it. Sincd it's obviously not all religion. So it's probably got a lot of stuff in there he can't feasibly collect in one lifetime.

[Voidus]

Well Sazed's copperminds are supposed to house the entirety of the fruits of Keeper research, right? Even if he never reads most of it. Sincd it's obviously not all religion. So it's probably got a lot of stuff in there he can't feasibly collect in one lifetime.

Well he collected it by hearing someone else recite theirs so it may be difficult to acquire in that age but that doesn't make it take up any more space than storing a similar length conversation.

[Thermophile]

of course a bit of acting.

Why would he lie about perfect memory? It didn't seem he was lying about being a perfect lie detector, since with emotional allomancy and various mental compoundings, he could get the truth from just about anybody. I think he'd be much more likely to lie about that than perfect memory, which is why I think he does have it.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Thermophile

[Yata]

Why would he lie about perfect memory? It didn't seem he was lying about being a perfect lie detector, since with emotional allomancy and various mental compoundings, he could get the truth from just about anybody. I think he'd be much more likely to lie about that than perfect memory, which is why I think he does have it.

To add more element to his "divine" status. Or at least is what I thought.

[Thermophile]

If that's what he was doing, he'd have lied about a lot more. The only thing we know he lied about was being God, and even that wasn't very far from the truth. He wouldn't have claimed to have something as disprovable as perfect memory if he didn't actually have it.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Shouldn't someone just ask mr. Sanderson whether TLR's "reputation for being able to remember things" (annotations Ch.6) was due to him compounding copper or just a clue to him secretly being a feruchemist (i.e. regular feru-copper)?

 

Arguments can be made for either side, and both sides plainly refuse to accept the arguments for the other (and yes, I'm not enough of a hypocrite to not include myself in that). I'm starting to believe we're not going to get anywhere without a WoB.

[Voidus]

Shouldn't someone just ask mr. Sanderson whether TLR's "reputation for being able to remember things" (annotations Ch.6) was due to him compounding copper or just a clue to him secretly being a feruchemist (i.e. regular feru-copper)?

 

Arguments can be made for either side, and both sides plainly refuse to accept the arguments for the other (and yes, I'm not enough of a hypocrite to not include myself in that). I'm starting to believe we're not going to get anywhere without a WoB.

I doubt he'd answer, questions on compounding are pretty routinely RAFO'd. Hopefully something comes up in BoM that opens up questions on it.

[hoidhunter]

Gotta Necro this...there is a WoB out there (that I haven't been able to find) about copper compounding that doesn't specifically say what it does...but simply states that it doesn't do exactly what you'd think it would.  My pet theory is that compounding copper makes memories that are not only permanent...but are immune to Ruin's manipulation...