Theory: Dalinar Must Die (Spoilers)

[dyring]

send more he sais. so they sent some, without getting replies.

 

And I bet they would act if the canadians murdered the american president during the celebrations after a new treaty, but its not the same. the canadians are well known to the US.

 

And, given the info we have, it would be better not to go to war. But all the Alethi know is that they met some strange parsmen somewhere that none should be, who they welcomed as friends and who then killed their king, then leaving. They didnt have the info we do. In their position, its way different. You gotto consider things from there.

 

I mean, US and allies have started wars knowing their arguments for said war was false.  Are america an evil empire?

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Being evil and not being justified are two different things. And, sadly, American has done great evil in its past. That doesn't make it an evil nation, but it's not a paragon of perfection either.

 

I never said the Alethi were evil. I merely said their war wasn't justified. Do you think the KR would have started this war?

[hoser he/him]

Being evil and not being justified are two different things. And, sadly, American has done great evil in its past. That doesn't make it an evil nation, but it's not a paragon of perfection either.

 

I never said the Alethi were evil. I merely said their war wasn't justified. Do you think the KR would have started this war?

These last two sentences are nowhere near equivalent. 

 

Using some just war theories including Saint Augustine's, the war is totally justified.

 

If the Radiants were around?  The Parshendi probably wouldn't have started the war like they did.  It gets tricky to change the conditions in mid-scenario and judge only one side on that basis. 

[Natans he/him]

Being evil and not being justified are two different things. And, sadly, American has done great evil in its past. That doesn't make it an evil nation, but it's not a paragon of perfection either.

 

I never said the Alethi were evil. I merely said their war wasn't justified. Do you think the KR would have started this war?

 

Hard to know, when we know so few about then. 

 

If you use the the end justifies the mean aproach like Mr. T defend kill all potential "voidbringer" are a good thing in log run, kill your potential enemy before he can fight you with in force are a efective tactic, but not very moral, give the fact that the enemy aren't doing nothing with you yet, preemptive attack.

 

In all Radiants vision the parshmen never appeared, and given the fact that their prime objective are kill voidbringesr It's possible that they would figth this war.We don't know enough to say that they woudn't.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Using some just war theories including Saint Augustine's, the war is totally justified.

 

If the Radiants were around?  The Parshendi probably wouldn't have started the war like they did.  It gets tricky to change the conditions in mid-scenario and judge only one side on that basis. 

 

Saint Augustine's War Doctrine. All of this four conditions must be met for a war to be justified.

 

1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

      

 Well killing Gavilar upset things, but if the Alethi hadn't gone to war Dalinar and Elhokar might have been able to stabilize things. So the damage may not have been lasting, or grave.

 

So the Alethi are not justified by this point.

 

2.all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

 

Dalinar said in chap 58 : "I would send more envoys and scholars to find out why the Parshendi killed Gavilar.  We gave up on that too easily... If rebels weren't the cause of the assassination, I'd keep asking until I learned why they did it. I'd demand repayment--perhaps their own king, delivered to us for execution in turn--in exchange for granting peace..." 

 

The Alethi did not try all other means of putting an end to the conflict.

 

They are not justified by the second point.

 

3.there must be serious prospects of success;

 

Okay so the Alethi might have this point in their favor.

 

4.the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.

 

Sadeas bridge crews alone make it impossible for the Alethi to meet this condition. Also there is the fact that the Alethi war ethic is worse than the Parshendi.

 

So according the Saint Augustine's Just War Theory, the Alethi war isn't justified.

 

Does that make the Alethi evil? No. But as Kaladin said speaking of his enemy and his army: "They aren't innocent, but neither are we. Not by a faint breeze or a stormwind."

 

However, I think the Parshendi would have still killed Gavilar to prevent the horrible thing that they thought he was going to do even if the Knight's Radient were still around.

 

Hard to know, when we know so few about then. 

 

If you use the the end justifies the mean aproach like Mr. T defend kill all potential "voidbringer" are a good thing in log run, kill your potential enemy before he can fight you with in force are a efective tactic, but not very moral, give the fact that the enemy aren't doing nothing with you yet, preemptive attack.

 

In all Radiants vision the parshmen never appeared, and given the fact that their prime objective are kill voidbringesr It's possible that they would figth this war.We don't know enough to say that they woudn't.

 

I'm not sure the Knights Radiant would make a preemptive attack on mostly innocent people. I don't think most of the Parshendi fighting this war had anything to do with how Gavilar died. Because of their codes, the Knight's Radiant would not kill the innocent to punish the few guilty among them.

 

However, I admit that I don't know enough about Roshar, the Knight Radiant, or the Parshendi to know what they would do if the Knight's Radiant of the old days were still around. However, I don't think they would go to war for the same reasons the Alethi did.

Edited January 17, 2014 by eveorjoy

[hoser he/him]

One point is that asking "What would the Radiants do?" in the middle of the situation is nowhere near the same as saying the war is unjustified.  They are two entirely different perspectives.

 

As for the war being justified, I analyze it differently. 

 

Actually, I was wrong.  I looked into it early in the debate and my memory did what it does, or doesn't do, in this case. 

 

Augustine came up with the just war concept, but Aquinas first defined it. 

 

Per Wikipedia:

Thomas Aquinas

 

Nine hundred years later, Thomas Aquinas — an immensely influential philosopher and theologian in the tradition of scholasticism — used the authority of Augustine's arguments as he laid out the conditions under which a war could be just:^[13]

• First, just war must be waged by a properly instituted authority such as the state. (Proper Authority is first: represents the common good: which is peace for the sake of man's true end—God.)
• Second, war must occur for a good and just purpose rather than for self-gain (for example, "in the nation's interest" is not just) or as an exercise of power. (Just Cause: for the sake of restoring some good that has been denied. i.e., lost territory, lost goods, punishment for an evil perpetrated by a government, army, or even citizen population.)
• Third, peace must be a central motive even in the midst of violence.^[14] (Right Intention: an authority must fight for the just reasons it has expressly claimed for declaring war in the first place. Soldiers must also fight for this intention.)

1. The Alethi King - check

2. punishment for an evil perpetrated by a government, army, or even citizen population - regicide - check

3. this one is iffier - Elhokar and Dalinar would certainly accept a surrender and might be willing to negotiate if the Parshendi would be open to it, but a negotiated settlement seems impossible with the Parshendi refusing to communicate.  Certainly Sadeas and some other highprinces lack right intention.  I imagine many soldiers also.  I'm not sure how reasonable this one is. 

 

What you quote resemples the Catholic Catechism per Wikipedia

1. lasting, grave and certain damage - Gavilar still dead - check

2. All other means impractical or ineffective - scholars and envoys sent, communication refused, Parshendi went to a secure bastion - check

3. Prospects of success - the Parshendi and Alethi both think so and you agree - check

4. Use of arms creates greater evil - Bridgemen probably don't like it, highprinces find it worthwhile, how evil are the Parshendi?  Given how forthcoming the Parshendi are, the Alethi could call this one any number of ways.  They have to make a judgement once Gavilar is killed, but they don't have the information they need.  - this one is debatable

[+eveorjoy she/her]

One point is that asking "What would the Radiants do?" in the middle of the situation is nowhere near the same as saying the war is unjustified.  They are two entirely different perspectives.

 

As for the war being justified, I analyze it differently. 

 

Actually, I was wrong.  I looked into it early in the debate and my memory did what it does, or doesn't do, in this case. 

 

Augustine came up with the just war concept, but Aquinas first defined it. 

 

Per Wikipedia:

Thomas Aquinas

 

1. The Alethi King - check

2. punishment for an evil perpetrated by a government, army, or even citizen population - regicide - check

3. this one is iffier - Elhokar and Dalinar would certainly accept a surrender and might be willing to negotiate if the Parshendi would be open to it, but a negotiated settlement seems impossible with the Parshendi refusing to communicate.  Certainly Sadeas and some other highprinces lack right intention.  I imagine many soldiers also.  I'm not sure how reasonable this one is. 

 

What you quote resemples the Catholic Catechism per Wikipedia

1. lasting, grave and certain damage - Gavilar still dead - check

2. All other means impractical or ineffective - scholars and envoys sent, communication refused, Parshendi went to a secure bastion - check

3. Prospects of success - the Parshendi and Alethi both think so and you agree - check

4. Use of arms creates greater evil - Bridgemen probably don't like it, highprinces find it worthwhile, how evil are the Parshendi?  Given how forthcoming the Parshendi are, the Alethi could call this one any number of ways.  They have to make a judgement once Gavilar is killed, but they don't have the information they need.  - this one is debatable

 

I withdraw my point about what the KR would do, admitting we don't know enough yet for them to be an example.

 

Still, even by your examples, the Alethi war is not completely justified. I don't think it was supposed to be shown as justified in The Way of Kings, but perhaps Words of Radiance will shed more light on the issue.

[hoser he/him]

Kumbaya!

 ... I merely said their war wasn't justified. ...

Perhaps an overstatement?

 

...

Using some just war theories including Saint Augustine's, the war is totally justified.

...

Inaccurate WRT Augustine, definitely an overstatement on my part.

 

...

So according the Saint Augustine's Just War Theory, the Alethi war isn't justified.

 

Does that make the Alethi evil? No. But as Kaladin said speaking of his enemy and his army: "They aren't innocent, but neither are we. Not by a faint breeze or a stormwind."

...

If all the people involved have to be perfect or even innocent, can a government ever take action?

 

...

Still, even by your examples, the Alethi war is not completely justified. ...

I hope we can agree that the war is somewhat, but not totally justified and that asking what the Radiants would do is an somewhat different question.

 

It is tribute to Brandon that he can create an ambiguous enough situation to be interesting.  May your firstevery reading of WoR be rich and enjoyable!

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Kumbaya!

 

Indeed.

 

Are the Alethi within there rights to defend themselves from harm, including killing their king? Yes. However their war is not for defense. It is for revenge. Revenge is harder to justify, though it makes sense. The desire to punish someone who harmed you or the ones you loved in someway is understandable. None the less, when Jack Ruby shot and killed Lee Harvey Oswald for killing John F. Kennedy, he was still not justified for that action and was put on trial for murder.

 

I think people defend the Alethi's choice to go to war because they like Dalinar so much. A good man can make a bad mistake, a mistake that even Dalinar admits to.

 

 

 

If all the people involved have to be perfect or even innocent, can a government ever take action?

 

You're talking to a Libertarian, so politically I would prefer if government took as little action as possible, but that's the ideal not real life.

 

Governments more often than not take action when it is necessary and usually justified. Sadly, however, governments will take action for reasons that are not justified, such as greed or vengeance.

 

I hope we can agree that the war is somewhat, but not totally justified and that asking what the Radiants would do is an somewhat different question.

 

 

I was using the Radiants as the ideal for justified war. They may not fit that ideal. So you're right, I should not have used them as the example.

 

It is tribute to Brandon that he can create an ambiguous enough situation to be interesting.  May your firstevery reading of WoR be rich and enjoyable!

 

 

Indeed. May yours as well.

[TwistedMisting she/her]

I actually don't believe the war is justifiable, but within the context of Alethi culture, I can understand why they did it. After all, their entire culture glorifies war. And not even a 'just' war. Just war for the sake of it. This is undoubtedly a reprehensible attitude. However, we have to see that Dalinar is trying to change this. In his conversation with one of the highprinces, he points out that this isn't a game. The other highprince quotes the Sunmaker, saying that it is a game, with real lives the pieces (can't quote exactly off the top of my head)

 

I find that attitude really callous. And I pity Dalinar, as he's trying to refute a deeply ingrained idea, which is in many ways the very soul of his nation's culture. His actions are completely contrary to his nation's values. No wonder he's having such trouble figuring out how to do this. I don't think I even know how one would go about it.

[Moogle]

I find that attitude really callous. And I pity Dalinar, as he's trying to refute a deeply ingrained idea, which is in many ways the very soul of his nation's culture. His actions are completely contrary to his nation's values. No wonder he's having such trouble figuring out how to do this. I don't think I even know how one would go about it.

 

How is Dalinar fighting against the Alethi cultural desire for war by starting up the war in earnest against the Parshendi? Or were you referring more to Dalinar trying to make war serious?

[TheShogun he/him]

Here's an interesting school of thought on the Justification of War:

"School of Salamanca[edit]

Growing from Aquinas arguments was the School of Salamanca, which expanded on Thomistic understanding of natural law and just war. Given that war is one of the worst evils suffered by mankind, the adherents of the School reasoned that it ought to be resorted to only when it was necessary in order to prevent an even greater evil. A diplomatic agreement is preferable, even for the more powerful party, before a war is started. Examples of "just war" are:

• In self-defense, as long as there is a reasonable possibility of success.
• Preventive war against a tyrant who is about to attack.
• War to punish a guilty enemy.

A war is not legitimate or illegitimate simply based on its original motivation: it must comply with a series of additional requirements:

• It is necessary that the response be commensurate to the evil; use of more violence than is strictly necessary would constitute an unjust war.
• Governing authorities declare war, but their decision is not sufficient cause to begin a war. If the people oppose a war, then it is illegitimate. The people have a right to depose a government that is waging, or is about to wage, an unjust war.
• Once war has begun, there remain moral limits to action. For example, one may not attack innocents or kill hostages.
• It is obligatory to take advantage of all options for dialogue and negotiations before undertaking a war; war is only legitimate as a last resort.

Under this doctrine, expansionist wars, wars of pillage, wars to convert infidels or pagans, and wars for glory are all inherently unjust."

 

(All from Wikipedia)

 

On one hand, the Alethi war is certainly "to punish a guilty enemy." 

 

On the other, they haven't undertaken all options for negotiation; Dalinar himself says so. Also, while the Shattered Plains fighting isn't entirely for glory, glory is a good amount of the reason it happened. 

 

Which brings up the question of whether we have to view Alethi wars in a different code of ethics: they have been commanded by their God (at least according to Modern Vorin Theology) to be good at it, so that they can retake the Tranquiline Halls. 

 

 

 

EDIT: Also also most of our theories about justification of war mention something about chance of success being necessary. While that is certainly the case on the Shattered Plains, doesn't it really go against the Ideals of the KR? "Journey before Destination" and such?

Edited January 19, 2014 by TheShogun

[Matrim he/him]

How is Dalinar fighting against the Alethi cultural desire for war by starting up the war in earnest against the Parshendi? Or were you referring more to Dalinar trying to make war serious?

 

Are you ignorant of the internal struggle Dalinar is having with this war? I do not believe he desires war any longer... he is trying to end it. This is in direct contrast to the idea held by the other highprinces so it is painted quite clearly. 

[Moogle]

Are you ignorant of the internal struggle Dalinar is having with this war? I do not believe he desires war any longer... he is trying to end it. This is in direct contrast to the idea held by the other highprinces so it is painted quite clearly. 

 

I think it's quite clear that he's trying to turn the competition between highprinces to obtain gemhearts into a real war. This is where the conflict between highprinces arises. The highprinces don't want him to take away their games. I don't think Dalinar desires war or is bloodthirsty as he was, but surely you have to agree that he's taking steps to start one back up in earnest again? This is not him "trying to end it". He literally says he's going to unite the highprinces and force them into fighting the Parshendi.

 

If you think he's having issues ramping up the war effort, please provide quotes stating that he is. I know of none. The closest I can think of is him being disgusted at killing hundreds of Parshendi, and this certainly didn't stop him from pressing full-ahead to start up the war with the Parshendi again.

 

I believe what I do in Dalinar due mainly to what he says his plans are at the end of TWoK:

 

“We’re going to make something of Alethkar, nephew,” Dalinar said softly. “The highprinces gave their oaths to Gavilar, but now ignore those oaths. Well, it’s time to stop letting them. We’re going to win this war, and we’re going to turn Alethkar into a place that men will envy again. Not because of our military prowess, but because people here are safe and because justice reigns. We’re going to do it—or you and I are going to die in the attempt.”

“You say that with eagerness.”

“Because I finally know exactly what to do,” Dalinar said, standing up straight. “I was trying to be Nohadon the peacemaker. But I’m not. I’m the Blackthorn, a general and a warlord.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Moogle

[Matrim he/him]

I think it's quite clear that he's trying to turn the competition between highprinces to obtain gemhearts into a real war. This is where the conflict between highprinces arises. The highprinces don't want him to take away their games. I don't think Dalinar desires war or is bloodthirsty as he was, but surely you have to agree that he's taking steps to start one back up in earnest again? This is not him "trying to end it". He literally says he's going to unite the highprinces and force them into fighting the Parshendi.

 

If you think he's having issues ramping up the war effort, please provide quotes stating that he is. I know of none. The closest I can think of is him being disgusted at killing hundreds of Parshendi, and this certainly didn't stop him from pressing full-ahead to start up the war with the Parshendi again.

 

I believe what I do in Dalinar due mainly to what he says his plans are at the end of TWoK:

 

Him ramping up the war effort is not evidence against, it is evidence for. He wants the war to end one way or another. Granted the other would, imo, be the better of the choices, but I think Dalinar believes this will bring about his end. Regardless, the war is going on and he WANTS to end it. He did not start the war back up, it was already going on. His attempt to change the focus, what you phrase as 'starting up in earnest' is his attempt to END the war. You are mistaking his means as his end. 

 

“Elhokar,” he said softly. “It may be time to ask ourselves some difficult questions.” 

“Such as?”

“Such as how long we will continue this war.”

Elhokar started. He turned, looking at Dalinar. “We’ll keep fighting until the Vengeance Pact is satisfied and my father is avenged!”

“Noble words,” Dalinar said. “But we’ve been away from Alethkar for six years now. Maintaining two far-flung centers of government is not healthy for the kingdom.”

“Kings often go to war for extended periods, Uncle.”

“Rarely do they do it for so long,” Dalinar said, “and rarely do they bring every Shardbearer and Highprince in the kingdom with them. Our resources are strained, and word from home is that the Reshi border encroachments grow increasingly bold. We are still fragmented as a people, slow to trust one another, and the nature of this extended war—without a clear path to victory and with a focus on riches rather than capturing ground—is not helping at all.”

 

Elhokar was incredulous. “Uncle, I can’t believe I’m hearing this! You aren’t seriously suggesting that I abandon the war, are you? You’d have me slink home, like a scolded axehound?”

“I said they were difficult questions, Your Majesty,” Dalinar said, keeping his anger in check. It was taxing. “But they must be considered.”

[Moogle]

Him ramping up the war effort is not evidence against, it is evidence for. He wants the war to end one way or another. Granted the other would, imo, be the better of the choices, but I think Dalinar believes this will bring about his end. Regardless, the war is going on and he WANTS to end it. He did not start the war back up, it was already going on. His attempt to change the focus, what you phrase as 'starting up in earnest' is his attempt to END the war. You are mistaking his means as his end. 

 

The issue here is what "ending the war" means. When I say that I want Dalinar to end the war, I mean that I want him to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing of Parshendi. When you say he wants to end the war, what you mean is that he wants to win the war and kill all the Parshendi so that the Alethi can go home.

 

You said "I do not believe he desires war any longer". Well, yes, if he didn't desire war, he could sue for peace. Dalinar, to his credit, brings up this option, though he promptly abandons it when it meets the first hint of resistance from Elhokar and the highprinces.

 

The war is going on, but the casualties are not particularly enormous for either side. Only some of them die every day in fights for gemhearts. Dalinar is ramping up the war effort and is going to increase those rates. Dalinar is not fighting against an Alethi desire for war, here, as you've said. He's going to try and kill more Parshendi than they are now, not less. This is not seeking an end to the fighting, this is him wanting to do a lot of fighting now so he doesn't have to do any later.

 

Your quote about Dalinar considering peace comes from the middle of the novel, where Dalinar is uncertain about his state of mind and has been troubled about the Thrill. He undergoes a lot of character development in the next half of the book, and it ends with him being certain that he wants more war, not peace. I don't think your quote is evidence that Dalinar wants peace as of the end of the novel, because he literally says that he is going to fight and win the war in his last PoV chapter.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Moogle

[dyring]

Sueing for peace is impossible thou. The "end the war" option would be simply leaving, as the Parshendi have refused to talk to them. It would also mean giving up on the gemhearts, their only source of giant gemhearts.

 

He´s propably going to try to send envoys again thou, since the Alethi seemingly gave that up after a while(to early according to Dalinar). Or, he could attempt to contact Eshonai in battle, but thats unlikely as hes not going to go on them it seems.

Edited January 21, 2014 by dyring

[Matrim he/him]

The issue here is what "ending the war" means. When I say that I want Dalinar to end the war, I mean that I want him to stop the bloodshed and stop the killing of Parshendi. When you say he wants to end the war, what you mean is that he wants to win the war and kill all the Parshendi so that the Alethi can go home.

 

You are right in the distinction. I want the same as you, but it is an end either way.

 

You said "I do not believe he desires war any longer". Well, yes, if he didn't desire war, he could sue for peace. Dalinar, to his credit, brings up this option, though he promptly abandons it when it meets the first hint of resistance from Elhokar and the highprinces.

 

I think this is the biggest proponent of your argument. He does, too easily imo, give up the other means of ending this war. Why? Who knows, but it is definitely evidence towards his lack of conviction for a peaceful end. That being said, I want to believe that, should Elhokar say, "Lets ditch this joint!" then Dalinar would hop aboard that crazy train. Unfortunately I have no evidence to support that. 

 

The war is going on, but the casualties are not particularly enormous for either side. Only some of them die every day in fights for gemhearts. Dalinar is ramping up the war effort and is going to increase those rates. Dalinar is not fighting against an Alethi desire for war, here, as you've said. He's going to try and kill more Parshendi than they are now, not less. This is not seeking an end to the fighting, this is him wanting to do a lot of fighting now so he doesn't have to do any later. Your quote about Dalinar considering peace comes from the middle of the novel, where Dalinar is uncertain about his state of mind and has been troubled about the Thrill. He undergoes a lot of character development in the next half of the book, and it ends with him being certain that he wants more war, not peace. I don't think your quote is evidence that Dalinar wants peace as of the end of the novel, because he literally says that he is going to fight and win the war in his last PoV chapter.

 

I would still like to believe that, even at the end of the book, Dalinar would abandon the war should Elhokar suggest it. Again, no evidence, I just feel he is more committed to the genocide in order to end the war as opposed to appeasing Alethi nature. 

[Moogle]

I think this is the biggest proponent of your argument. He does, too easily imo, give up the other means of ending this war. Why? Who knows, but it is definitely evidence towards his lack of conviction for a peaceful end. That being said, I want to believe that, should Elhokar say, "Lets ditch this joint!" then Dalinar would hop aboard that crazy train. Unfortunately I have no evidence to support that.

 

I think you're right. I think he doesn't really care about killing the Parshendi either way (though he might prefer it for vengeance), he just wants the war over so he can work on uniting Alethkar. The Parshendi are just an obstacle in his plans. If Elhokar was willing to abandon the war, I think Dalinar would would join him.