Stormlight != Investiture, Invested Oaths, also "Surgebinding" type Zero

[Aether]

I think there could be enough excess power around for Devotion to be reformed without killing the Seons. She/he would be a lot weaker, though.

[Meg]

Ah-ha, yes, I was inexact. I do wonder (and this might well affect what happens), what (if anything) were Seons before they got the Splinters inside of them? What would happen if the Splinter were removed? More to the heart-wrenching point, does Ashe need to die for Devotion to be reformed? omigod i'm gonna cry...

IIRC you're not the only one wondering how Seons were made. Also, we don't know (as far as I remember) whether the Aon-Splinters (all) had been made after Aonas death/Devotions shattering. Like Aether I don't think the Seons -- so Ashe not as well -- have to die if Devotion would be re-builded.

First, because we know that a lot of "unleashed" power (and I think this means power of Devotion as well as power of Dominion) is around on Sel, and then we know for example Endowment who gives away Splinters of herself without dying (neither Endowment seems very weak, but we don't really know).

[cem]

Ah-ha, yes, I was inexact. I do wonder (and this might well affect what happens), what (if anything) were Seons before they got the Splinters inside of them? What would happen if the Splinter were removed? More to the heart-wrenching point, does Ashe need to die for Devotion to be reformed? omigod i'm gonna cry...

You're assuming there were Seons first and Splinters came later. But I think a more probable option is that Devotion, for whatever reasons, created Splinters, those Splinters then gained sentience and intent, and became Seons as we know them.

[hoser]

IIRC you're not the only one wondering how Seons were made. Also, we don't know (as far as I remember) whether the Aon-Splinters (all) had been made after Aonas death/Devotions shattering. Like Aether I don't think the Seons -- so Ashe not as well -- have to die if Devotion would be re-builded.

First, because we know that a lot of "unleashed" power (and I think this means power of Devotion as well as power of Dominion) is around on Sel, and then we know for example Endowment who gives away Splinters of herself without dying (neither Endowment seems very weak, but we don't really know).

I believe there is WoB that Seons did not exist before the splintering of Devotion. 

 

I am aware of the famous quote about the Aons being splinters, but not the Seons.  I wonder whether the definition of splinter has evolved, and whether Brandon would say the same thing if he were asked again today.  Based on the definition of splinter he offered at the Seattle signing, it seems like he might now say that Seons are splinters.  

[WeiryWriter]

Endowment who gives away Splinters of herself

 

Just a friendly reminder that we do not know Endowment's gender.

[Meg]

I believe there is WoB that Seons did not exist before the splintering of Devotion.

*searching, searching*

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

Seons are remnants of a dead Shard.

source (March 2012)

This looks like you're right (and also it kind of supports your following paragraph though the quote is only paraphrased).

But the clarification is more up to date:

 

Viper

SPLINTER. Are the Aons at the heart of Seons SPLINTERS of Aona?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source (February 2013)

I wonder whether the definition of splinter has evolved, and whether Brandon would say the same thing if he were asked again today.  Based on the definition of splinter he offered at the Seattle signing, it seems like he might now say that Seons are splinters.

I wasn't able to find the quote you refer to, might you be so kind and tell me?

edit:

Just a friendly reminder that we do not know Endowment's gender.

Thanks It might be that *cough* I think that "he"s aren't so generous to give parts of them away. *cough* (Sorry )

Edited December 10, 2013 by Meg

[Aether]

Thanks  It might be that *cough* I think that "he"s aren't so generous to give parts of them away. *cough* (Sorry )

Oh, I think you'll find most men quite generous in certain kinds of bodily donations.

EDIT: Neptune's beard, I cannot believe I actually wrote that...

Edited December 10, 2013 by Aether

[hoser]

*searching, searching*

I wasn't able to find the quote you refer to, might you be so kind and tell me?

As you wish

From here:

A splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no…no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

 

It just seems to me that the Seons have self-awareness, but I don't know about the Aons inside. 

Edited December 10, 2013 by hoser

[Meg]

As you wish

From here:

 

It just seems to me that the Seons have self-awareness, but I don't know about the Aons inside.

Thank you.

I've read this part but I don't understand it as a new definition of the term "Splinter". This might come because I should long since sleep. May be others than you and me have thought about this which I can read tomorrow.

[Oudeis]

Thanks It might be that *cough* I think that "he"s aren't so generous to give parts of them away. *cough* (Sorry )

 

Heh heh, that's not what-

 

Oh, I think you'll find most men quite generous in certain kinds of bodily donations.

EDIT: Neptune's beard, I cannot believe I actually wrote that...

 

...Neptune's beard, I cannot believe you beat me to it...

[marianmi]

Marianmi, I think you are getting caught up on the word "creating" regarding investiture. This is understandable if English is not your native language. I think you are trying to say that Lift is "converting" food into stormlight, rather than "creating" stormlight from food. Does that help?

 

Well, I was trying to saying that she's not "creating" In the end, converting food into stormlight directly or spending food as key in gaining access to stormlight (like metal in allomancy) is practically (even if not technically), the same thing. You have food/metal, you can do magic. 

 

 

I think there could be enough excess power around for Devotion to be reformed without killing the Seons. She/he would be a lot weaker, though.

 

I don't think Devotion can be reformed, since the Dor presumably is Devotion + Dominion's power. Rather, a new shard may be created from the Dor (if somebody has the knowledge, of course). And since there is enough power around, the seons and skaze can stay, I guess...

 

 

Just a friendly reminder that we do not know Endowment's gender.

 

I was under the impression (from one of the threads here) that Endowment was identified as a "he" (can't remember his name). Just a remnant of a remnant of a memory

[hoser]

Thank you.

I've read this part but I don't understand it as a new definition of the term "Splinter". This might come because I should long since sleep. May be others than you and me have thought about this which I can read tomorrow.

My understanding of splinter has been based on the idea that Seons are not splinters, but the Aons inside them are.  With the recent definition and the idea that spren are splinters, it seems to me that Seons may "be" splinters, despite the old interview where Brandon said they are not.  So it may not be a new definition to you, but it seems like it to me.  Does that make sense?

[marianmi]

We can't really compare spren yet....

 

Splinters are:

 

* Divine Breath - which is combined with a dead person to make the Returned.

* the aon in seon - which is combined with an aon-less seon (which is a new thing that did not exist before) to make the seon.

 

So in both cases, you have a splinter and a splinter-bearer, like shard and shard-bearer. A BOND.

 

Maybe then the spren is the splinter - like the aon in seon, and the Divine Breath in the Returned, and you have a person as the splinter-bearer, via the Nahel bond (vs the Returned Bond vs. the Seon Bond)? Maybe the seon gains his "consciousness" from the human, heavily altered by the "intent" of the splinter - like the Returned draw their "consciousness" from the dead person in the Returned "bond".

 

I think it's too early to speculate, but this may be a good possibility.

 

EDIT: my 300th post, yay!

Edited December 10, 2013 by marianmi

[hoser]

We can't really compare spren yet....

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I believe that there is WoB to the effect that bonding spren like Syl "are" splinters

 

 

Splinters are:

 

* Divine Breath - which is combined with a dead person to make the Returned.

* the aon in seon - which is combined with an aon-less seon (which is a new thing that did not exist before) to make the seon.

 

So in both cases, you have a splinter and a splinter-bearer, like shard and shard-bearer. A BOND.

I used to believe that based on some old interviews.  But consider this definition:

 

A splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no…no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

Where is the self awareness of the Aon inside a Seon? 

Where is the self-awareness of the breath inside a Returned?  We have had Lightsong POV and I am not aware of any consciousness other than Lightsong's.  Until we get a POV from the Returned superBreath or word of Brandon, I don't know that it has self-awareness.  I can't prove that it doesn't, but I now have an open mind to the idea that the Returned and Seons are splinters.

[marianmi]

Yes, that quote contradicts even something else what Brandon said.

 

And according to this  "definition", where is then self-awareness in the Returned? 'cause looks to me the awareness and personality comes from the (dead) person.

[hoser]

Yes, that quote contradicts even something else what Brandon said.

 

And according to this  "definition", where is then self-awareness in the Returned? 'cause looks to me the awareness and personality comes from the (dead) person.

Excellent point.  There are some fixes, but your thoughtful approach helps me understand other issues. 

 

Is the Returned a person? If not, then the power of Adonalsium (the divine breath) could have "attained" the self awareness from the previous occupant of the body sent by the Shardholder.

 

If the Returned is a person, then look at the definition.  It says that it is a term from "certain people in the cosmere".  Maybe the "certain people in the cosmere" haven't run into the Warbreaker world.  If they meet people from the world of the returned, they will refine the definition. 

 

Who are these "certain people in the cosmere, anyway?  The 17th Shard? The Elantrians? Shardholders?

 

[Oudeis]

I was under the impression (from one of the threads here) that Endowment was identified as a "he" (can't remember his name). Just a remnant of a remnant of a memory

 

In case anyone cares, for brevity's sake, from now on my pronoun for Endowment is "she". I realize that this isn't confirmed, but I'm not going to type "he/she" every time, and I'm not going to respond when people call me out on it. My gut reaction is that she sounded like a she. If I'm wrong, I'll change it when it's confirmed.

[Shardlet]

I think that the key take-aways from these two conversations are:

1) Wyndle is our best source for info currently and he indicates that Lift is metabolizing food/fat into "stormlight", when she uses her surgebinding she is consuming/spending "investiture", and she eats food to restore her depleted store of investiture.  Couple this with the WoB that stormlight is investiture (this smacked more of the short answer rather than a placeholder answer), our best information is that stormlight is at least a form of investiture.

 

2) We have old quotes from Brandon indicating that Returned Breath (not Returned) and the Aons within Seons (not Seons) are splinters.  We have newer WoB that indicates that splinters are portions of the power of a shard (i.e., the power of creation) which have been left without a guiding intelliigence and subsequently attained self-awareness.  This means we should seek clarification of the old in light of the new.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Shardlet

[hoser]

I wonder whether the first issue could benefit from some more analysis.

I think that the key take-aways from these two conversations are:

1) Wyndle is our best source for info currently and he indicates that Lift is metabolizing food/fat into "stormlight", when she uses her surgebinding she is consuming/spending "investiture", and she eats food to restore her depleted store of investiture.  Couple this with the WoB that stormlight is investiture (this smacked more of the short answer rather than a placeholder answer), our best information is that stormlight is at least a form of investiture.

The issue, as I see it, is that Lift is described as converting food to stormlight/investiture, but even a Shard can only move investiture around, not create it.  Now, the food from the planet may be slightly invested, but it doesn't seem like there should be very much investiture in a random dinner roll. 

I wonder whether the solution is in the Nightwatcher's intervention.  We know that Lift can touch spren, which Wyndle finds surprising.  Wyndle thinks that this means that Lift is linked to the cognitive realm.  Maybe the Nightwatcher messed with Lift's SDNA, allowing her to exchange the food for investiture from the cognitive realm using her unique connection to the cognitive realm.

Another possible solution lies in her developing surgebinder/Radiance.  It is not clear to me that the Radiants had to rely exclusively on stormlight left over from the last highstorm.  What if Radiants are able to access stormlight more directly?  Maybe Lift is doing this somehow.  The huge surge of stormlight that Kaladin experienced when he spoke the second oath was not from gems or a highstorm.  Where did it come from?  What else is accessible to advanced Radiants? 

[Aether]

I don't think Devotion can be reformed, since the Dor presumably is Devotion + Dominion's power. Rather, a new shard may be created from the Dor (if somebody has the knowledge, of course). And since there is enough power around, the seons and skaze can stay, I guess...

First of all, when I was talking about "excess power", I was not talking about the Dor. The Dor was already in place when Aona and Skai were splintered, and was presumably set up by them together. There is a WoB on this; I'll edit it in when I find it.

 

And a splintering is not permanent:

Mason Wheeler

You've said that Splintering a shard is essentially the same thing as the shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

<source>

Chaos

Is Splintering a Shard permanent?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

<source>

Edited December 11, 2013 by Aether

[Meg]

I hope I don't annoy anybody when I come back to the "Splinter-topic" once more. 

 

At first: There's a general problem with the ambiguity of a lots of terms used, because often there are no real definitions available and because a lot of WoBs can be interpreted in different ways.

This quote:

 

A splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no…no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

is a good example. Another good example is the use of the word "Shard". It's used for:

- Shard of Adonalsium (the "power"), like Ruin, Preservation etc.

- Shard of Adonalsium (the person holding the power), like Tanavast etc.

- sometimes "Shards" is used abbreviated for Shardplate and -blade.

Though "we" tend to call the person holding a Shard of Adonalsium a "Shardholder", Mr. Sanderson himself doesn't improve this.

 

BS:

7. I think "Shardholder" would get confusing alongside "Shardbearer." Basically, in the Cosmere's terms, when someone holds a Shard of Adonalsium, I call that person a Shard of Adonalsium. They are imbued with the power of that Shard, but they also become the Shard. Fans can use whatever terminology they wish, but this is how I term it.

source

So Mr. Sanderson calls the person the same name as the power.

And we mess it all up .

But now back to the Splinters.

Hoser -- please bear with me, I really don't want to sound offensive, but you're my victim here -- interprets the quote from the Seattle signing much more strict way than I do.

 

A splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no…no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

I interpret it more generally:

Some people in the cosmere use "splinter" if they talk about power (not "the") of Adonalsium which isn't cared by a person and "which has attained self-awareness".

I don't think this quote isn't an absolute (new) definition for "Splinter".

Those refer to Splinters that are not given by a Shard of Adonalsium.

Other Splinters are, for example, the Divine Breaths though it seems not to matter whether the person or the power does the Splintering seems not to be relevant here, see Endowment).

I don't really see a contradiction here.

Splinters are parts of parts of the Power of Adonalsium (I use here: Power of Adonalsium == Shard of Adonalsium in opposite to "Shardholder", the person).

Some of those Splinters are given by the Shards of Adonalsium (Endowment, Adonalsium itself (the spren that were around long ago on Roshar) etc.).

Others are the results of the Splintering of Shards of Adonalsium (person dead, power splintered) {some spren, I think, for example Syl, the power that floats around on Sel unleashed.

Mr. Sanderson onces said that Roshar doesn't have the problems with unleashed power as it occurs on Sel, because the (some?) spren work as release valves for this power. Might it be, that those spren are able to do this because they are such a sort of Splinters (that attained self-awareness)?

I'm really sorry. I began this posting roughly two hours ago and despite of having break I got disturbed frequently. And I have to continue working so I dare send this babbling-post without proof-reading it.

[Shardlet]

I don't really see a contradiction here.

Splinters are parts of parts of the Power of Adonalsium (I use here: Power of Adonalsium == Shard of Adonalsium in opposite to "Shardholder", the person).

Some of those Splinters are given by the Shards of Adonalsium (Endowment, Adonalsium itself (the spren that were around long ago on Roshar) etc.).

Others are the results of the Splintering of Shards of Adonalsium (person dead, power splintered) {some spren, I think, for example Syl, the power that floats around on Sel unleashed.

 

I agree with you Meg that some distinction may be in force for splinters which are voluntarily created (Divine Breath) and those which are not (Seon Aons).  Personally I think that spren like Syl are voluntarily created splinters.  In contrast, I think that most of the more mundane spren resulted from the splintering Honor.  As to splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar, for everyone's edification here is the full quite from Seattle:

 

 

Wetlander: Please explain what you will about shards and splintering and slivers.

 

A: An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces.  And 16 people took up that power.

 

Q: People?

 

A: I call all intelligent species people.   If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that’s been stretched and then the air is let out.  I call that a sliver; based off of TLR calling himself the Sliver of Infinity.  TLR is someone who held the power and then released it.  And so, current slivers are TLR, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it.  A splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no…no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

 

Wetlander: So is that like the mists and the Well?  Are they…

 

A: They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness.  But, the Seons are self-aware.  So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there.  Those were already splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own.  So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense?  You have seen other splinters.

 

Wetlander: Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor? (Brandon spoke over the word Honor in starting his response)

 

A: The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. (also affirmed the well as being similar).  You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.

 

The quote seems to me to indicate that the Adonalsium spren developed their sentience independent of any will of Adonalsium though the power was intentionally left behind.  

[marianmi]

Shardlet - I tend to think the same about sprens.

 

Now, since the Highstorms are more related to the mists, which are power w/o sentience ... I am inclined to believe after the splintering of Honour, some power became spren, and some power is left behind on its own, surfacing during highstorms - the stormlight.

 

If the above assumption is true (and it's a reasonable one), I think an important thing here is that stormlight is Honor's power (in case there were doubts). The black sphere probably contained Odium's power, and we are yet to see what's the reflection of Cultivation's power.

 

Also, from another WoB about gemhearts - one conclusion that can be drawn is that they are a shard's "body". Since they are able to store stormlight, I would say that they are Honor's body.

 

There are some old spren that have bonded with big animals - like the Reishi islands. Since they are not like honorspren, I would then tend to believe those are the Adonalsium spren. But here is the interesting bit - does that mean that the Reishi Islands are sentient / intelligent - in Brandon's words - "people"?

[Shardlet]

Point of clarification,I don't think it is accurate to characterize the mists as power left untended.  They were/are power that was at least specifically programmed to perform a specific function (which it did/does).  If it were just loose power, then it would be expected to form splinters, neh?

 

I also don't see any reason at this point to believe that the highstorms did not distribute stormlight during the desolations (i.e., when Tanavast was alive and Honor unsplintered).

 

I personally am more inclined to think that spren like Cusicesh are adospren.

[Oudeis]

Point of clarification,I don't think it is accurate to characterize the mists as power left untended.  They were/are power that was at least specifically programmed to perform a specific function (which it did/does).  If it were just loose power, then it would be expected to form splinters, neh?

 

I also don't see any reason at this point to believe that the highstorms did not distribute stormlight during the desolations (i.e., when Tanavast was alive and Honor unsplintered).

 

I personally am more inclined to think that spren like Cusicesh are adospren.

 

I honestly cannot remember... do we know for sure there WERE highstorms way back then?