Stormlight != Investiture, Invested Oaths, also "Surgebinding" type Zero

[Oudeis]

4) show that spren have quite some Cosmere knowledge

 

 

Hence my conclusion: is not really important how exactly this thing is achieved. If a spren, with lots of Cosmere knowledge, does not  really know how, I don't think we are supposed to know also.

 

People conflate two terms a lot, and I realize I'm spitting into the wind here, but I wish people would be more exact.

 

To me, "Cosmere Knowledge" or "Cosmere-aware" should refer to the knowledge that there are other worlds out there, Invested by other Shards, and perhaps the specifics about those worlds, not just their metaphysics but their culture and evolution.

 

People use it on these fora when they mean "realmatically aware," as in, they are aware that three realms exist and how they interact.

 

I realize that there's a connection, because all the worlds have three realms and because you apparently can more-easily travel to them via the cognitive realm than you can via the physical realm, but that's like saying that someone who majors in calculus has an "understanding of philosophy". Sure, there's a connection, and if you squint your eyes and turn your head a bit it's even slightly true, it's just ridiculously misleading and off base.

 

So basically, unless this whole thing started with a WoB, I really wish people would say what they meant.

[Shardlet]

People conflate two terms a lot, and I realize I'm spitting into the wind here, but I wish people would be more exact.

 

To me, "Cosmere Knowledge" or "Cosmere-aware" should refer to the knowledge that there are other worlds out there, Invested by other Shards, and perhaps the specifics about those worlds, not just their metaphysics but their culture and evolution.

 

People use it on these fora when they mean "realmatically aware," as in, they are aware that three realms exist and how they interact.

 

...

 

So basically, unless this whole thing started with a WoB, I really wish people would say what they meant.

 

Here Here!  Hear, hear! I agree both with your interpretation of the terms and the sentiment you put forth.

 

Edit: I stand corrected (Hear, hear!).  Although, I had intended to put in the comma.  Thank you, hoser.  Making errors such as this are a pet peeve of mine.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Shardlet

[hoser]

Wow, Darnam, that's an amazing distinction that I had not thought of before.  Upvote!

People conflate two terms a lot, and I realize I'm spitting into the wind here, but I wish people would be more exact.

 

To me, "Cosmere Knowledge" or "Cosmere-aware" should refer to the knowledge that there are other worlds out there, Invested by other Shards, and perhaps the specifics about those worlds, not just their metaphysics but their culture and evolution.

 

People use it on these fora when they mean "realmatically aware," as in, they are aware that three realms exist and how they interact.

 

I realize that there's a connection, because all the worlds have three realms and because you apparently can more-easily travel to them via the cognitive realm than you can via the physical realm, but that's like saying that someone who majors in calculus has an "understanding of philosophy". Sure, there's a connection, and if you squint your eyes and turn your head a bit it's even slightly true, it's just ridiculously misleading and off base.

 

So basically, unless this whole thing started with a WoB, I really wish people would say what they meant.

That said, and understanding that this is a pet peeve that you are unloading, I have some problems with it.

1. I believe educational pedantry can be more positive than the way you delivered it.
2. The spren are shown to know about their mother, presumed to be Cultivation and a male person presumed to be Honor/Tanavast along with their history.  They know about the surges and that the Nightwatcher has done something to Lift.  To describe the spren as realmatically aware, by your definition, is a significant understatement.  The cosmere is a set of worlds (universe?) with magic from the Shards of Adonalsium, at least.  The spren may even be aware of other planets in the cosmere.  I find marianmi's description of them (cosmere knowledge) to be more accurate than yours (realmatically aware). 
3. We pedants should hold ourselves to a higher standards of accuracy than those who are less concerned with distinctions of not-great importance.

Upvote to marianmi for bravery in posting in a non-native language around people who will go off on irrelevancies of questionable accuracy.

 

Here Here!  I agree both with your interpretation of the terms and the sentiment you put forth.

People conflate two terms a lot, and I realize I'm spitting into the wind here, but I wish people would be more exact.

 

To me, "Here Here" is a common misspelling of "Hear, hear" that ... Oops, never mind.  Hoist by my own petard. 

Edited December 17, 2013 by hoser

[Oudeis]

Wow, Darnam, that's an amazing distinction that I had not thought of before.  Upvote!

That said, and understanding that this is a pet peeve that you are unloading, I have some problems with it.

1. I believe educational pedantry can be more positive than the way you delivered it.
2. The spren are shown to know about their mother, presumed to be Cultivation and a male person presumed to be Honor/Tanavast along with their history.  They know about the surges and that the Nightwatcher has done something to Lift.  To describe the spren as realmatically aware, by your definition, is a significant understatement.  The cosmere is a set of worlds (universe?) with magic from the Shards of Adonalsium, at least.  The spren may even be aware of other planets in the cosmere.  I find marianmi's description of them (cosmere knowledge) to be more accurate than yours (realmatically aware). 
3. We pedants should hold ourselves to a higher standards of accuracy than those who are less concerned with distinctions of not-great importance.

 

3. I agree that I should hold myself to a higher standard; as I'm about to say, I disagree with your assertion that I didn't.

1. You are right. I could have been nicer. I do hope, @marianmi, that I made it clear I wasn't talking only about you, but that it's a way I see people across these fora talk.

2. ... I agree with almost none of this. First, the specific instance in this case that provoked my reaction wasn't directly about Wyndle's broader knowledge of Adonalsium and his various Shards, it was about interactions between the Physical and Cognitive realms and how energy can be created/transferred/metamorphosed/what-have-you by such an interaction. Yes, I know he knows about things beyond that, but they aren't any more germane to this specific instance than his knowledge of gardening is.

 

Also, while you point out that yes, he also knows about the specific Shards of this world, there is absolutely no reason to assume he knows that other worlds even exist. He makes no mention of any other Shard, not even Odium. For the specific knowledge that marianmi referred to, "realmatically aware" is more accurate, and even for the specific knowledge you now refer to, "cosmerically aware" isn't as appropriate as simply saying he knows of the Gods of this one world. It's a huge leap on your part, unsubstantiated by the text, that he knows anything about the broader cosmere as a whole. It would be like me claiming to know your family, just because I've spoken with you on these fora.

 

Lastly, I see you were downvoted. I wanted to clarify that it was not me who did that, and that I am in fact upvoting you for making good points, for reminding me to be more civil, and for drawing my attention to the fact that I may have inadvertently hurt marianmi's feelings. I am sorry, marianmi.

[Meg]

I apologize for this off topic post.

I admit that it was me who downvoted hoser's post. It happened on impulse when reading this:

 

... around people who will go off on irrelevancies of questionable accuracy.

Perhaps I'm too touchy but I made me sad reading this.

I can't speak for others but I try -- not always successful -- to express myself in posts here as good, and clear, and as near to given definitions/explanations as I can. Call me a pedant or a nitpicker, that's okay. But I need this clarity to be able to understand -- and participate.

[hoser]

@Darnam - Thanks for the thoughtful and positively-toned response. 

3. ... I agree with almost none of this. First, the specific instance in this case that provoked my reaction wasn't directly about Wyndle's broader knowledge of Adonalsium and his various Shards, it was about interactions between the Physical and Cognitive realms and how energy can be created/transferred/metamorphosed/what-have-you by such an interaction. Yes, I know he knows about things beyond that, but they aren't any more germane to this specific instance than his knowledge of gardening is.

 

Also, while you point out that yes, he also knows about the specific Shards of this world, there is absolutely no reason to assume he knows that other worlds even exist. He makes no mention of any other Shard, not even Odium. For the specific knowledge that marianmi referred to, "realmatically aware" is more accurate, and even for the specific knowledge you now refer to, "cosmerically aware" isn't as appropriate as simply saying he knows of the Gods of this one world. It's a huge leap on your part, unsubstantiated by the text, that he knows anything about the broader cosmere as a whole. It would be like me claiming to know your family, just because I've spoken with you on these fora. ...

Now, if I were to be defensive, (which I would never do, as defensiveness is a bad thing) I would point out that I see you quote marianmi using "cosmere knowledge" twice without differentiating between the two instances.  I can see your explanation applying to the second of those instances, but I do not see how it fits for the first, quoted below. 
The first use you quoted seems to me to be in a list of not particularly realmatic things.  While it maybe could have been more specific, I think "Cosmere knowledge" fits better than "realmatically aware". 

Now, what do you think her purpose is in the whole picture? My opinion is that she was introduced to:

1) give more information about Darkness - Darkness is the one that shows up in at least one more interlude (Ym - and maybe Jasnah too), and I suspect Darkness will play a more important role in the future;

2) talk about The Ring - an organization of spren!

3) details about how a spren bonds - in this case that spren can choose or initiate a bond, not just mindlessly "become attracted", like Syl

4) show that spren have quite some Cosmere knowledge

5) other small details about spren and the Cosmere, e.g. that they chose Lift because she visited the Nightwatcher. This has impact on the main story, i.e. Dalinar also visited the Nightwatcher.

That said, I am overall delighted with you and Shardlet's constructive responses to my challenging post.  I feel grateful beyond upvotes (but those too). 

 

@meg - thanks.  I often don't know why I am being downvoted.  Reading what you were reacting to helps me understand that my choice of "go off on" was unnecessarily strong.  FWIW, I generally see your posts as questioning and seeking clarity, not informing about what seem to me to be minor distinctions.  My generalizing to "people" when I "went off on" Darnam was meant to indict only myself and Darnam (perhaps wrongly in Darnam's case), not you. 

Edited December 17, 2013 by hoser

[Shardlet]

I can see your explanation applying to the second of those instances, but I do not see how it fits for the first, quoted below. 

The first use you quoted seems to me to be in a list of not particularly realmatic things.  While it maybe could have been more specific, I think "Cosmere knowledge" fits better than "realmatically aware". 

 

I think I agree with Darnam on this one, hoser.  I look at cosmere awareness being an awareness not necessarily of worlds beyond the present setting, or even knowledge of a Shard or Shards which are particularly pertinent to the present setting, but more as an awareness of the fact that there are more Shards beyond the one(s) pertinent to your world and that they are/were all part of a greater whole.  So, while the Kandra knew a fair amount about Ruin and Preservation, I would not put them very high on the scale of cosmere awareness because they don't seem to place any significance to Ruin and Preservation beyond Scadrial.  The same goes for Wyndle, he is rather familiar with Honor and Cultivation (and presumably Odium based on Syl's reaction to hearing Odium's name), but there, so far, has been no indication of any knowledge of any significance beyond their pertinence to Roshar.

 

Now, that is not to say that he has no cosmere awareness.  He and presumably other spren are more cosmerically aware than anyone that we met on Sel.  There was no apparent knowledge (though the seons, and by extension, the skaze, may be excepted from this) of Dominion or Devotion much less any knowledge of anything beyond Sel.  On the other end of the spectrum, of course, you have Hoid and the Shards who each have a rather complete knowledge of things of cosmeric importance.

[marianmi]

@Darnam - I don't think I have seen the distinction until your post. And I totally agree it should be done - even if they have things in common, they are different things.

 

Also, about pedantry.... sometimes I am in a hurry to post a reply and I am not careful to see if I am using the right terms. It makes sense in my head, but reading it later (and after several replies asking for clarifications ) I can see how other people can understand something else.

 

That being said, in all my posts I am trying to stay away from generally accepted terminology, for a couple of reasons:

1) make my posts understandable to those that are not Cosmere-aware (or not so much realmatics-aware)

2) some terminology is confusing, and even Brandon changes it from time to time (e.g. splinter definition). 

 

Now, just to clarify what I mean by spren "cosmere-aware" - I was, in that context, indeed referring to "realmatics-aware". However, it's my opinion that spren are also much cosmere-aware, and that they know about the existence of other shards and worlds. It is my impression that also the people on Roshar had some cosmere knowledge in the past (they def were more realmatics-aware) - and not just the KR (in one of Dalinar's vision we have a curse involving the "three gods"). Edit: (so everyone was more cosmere-aware, and KR were also very much realmatics-aware).

 

 

Lastly, I see you were downvoted. I wanted to clarify that it was not me who did that, and that I am in fact upvoting you for making good points, for reminding me to be more civil, and for drawing my attention to the fact that I may have inadvertently hurt marianmi's feelings. I am sorry, marianmi.

 

Erm, I found your post very to the point, and made me try to explain better and hopefully more careful to my terminology in the future

 

 

ANOTHER EDIT: @Darnam: Syl is very aware of Odium, and it would make sense to me that Wyndle is aware too.

Edited December 18, 2013 by marianmi

[hoser]

@Shardlet - Well, my objection to Darnam's objection may have been overprotective.  I do think that the creator of a post saying a number of things can't always (well, I don't, anyway) get everything exactly right, and is entitled to some impreciseness of expression along the way.  I was delighted to hear Darnam's thoughts on the distinction between Realmatic and Cosmeric, as I had not associated Realmatic and realm (yeah, I'm dumb). 

However, I think there is a greater obligation on the person objecting to a detail to be precisely correct than someone placing a detail in a larger exposition. 

I think I agree with Darnam on this one, hoser.  I look at cosmere awareness being an awareness not necessarily of worlds beyond the present setting, or even knowledge of a Shard or Shards which are particularly pertinent to the present setting, but more as an awareness of the fact that there are more Shards beyond the one(s) pertinent to your world and that they are/were all part of a greater whole.  So, while the Kandra knew a fair amount about Ruin and Preservation, I would not put them very high on the scale of cosmere awareness because they don't seem to place any significance to Ruin and Preservation beyond Scadrial.  The same goes for Wyndle, he is rather familiar with Honor and Cultivation (and presumably Odium based on Syl's reaction to hearing Odium's name), but there, so far, has been no indication of any knowledge of any significance beyond their pertinence to Roshar.

 

Now, that is not to say that he has no cosmere awareness.  He and presumably other spren are more cosmerically aware than anyone that we met on Sel.  There was no apparent knowledge (though the seons, and by extension, the skaze, may be excepted from this) of Dominion or Devotion much less any knowledge of anything beyond Sel.  On the other end of the spectrum, of course, you have Hoid and the Shards who each have a rather complete knowledge of things of cosmeric importance.

I am not aware of a canonical definition of Cosmere awareness.  The one you offer (cosmere awareness being an awareness not necessarily of worlds beyond the present setting, or even knowledge of a Shard or Shards which are particularly pertinent to the present setting, but more as an awareness of the fact that there are more Shards beyond the one(s) pertinent to your world and that they are/were all part of a greater whole) makes sense as yours and informs your point of view.  All good, so far. 

My point is that as I read the first usage that Darnam apparently objected to, it seemed arguably correct.  It's fine for us to have definitions that don't match, but I think posters deserve some slack about word choices in a longer post.  We apparently knew what marianmi was trying to say and where a vague term like Cosmere knowledge is concerned, posters should be free of having to match nuances of our individual definitions. 

To be honest, though, it did bother me that Darnam quoted marianmi twice when he made his objection, but only defended the one usage that seemed more defensible.  His post was generally exemplary, however, so I'm stopping now. 

[Oudeis]

Wow you guys posted a LOT while I was at karaoke. I'm going to reply to what I feel is the one biggest point of contention left, maybe one-and-a-half, then go to bed, and when I wake up I'll re-read this all and perhaps have more thoughts to share. Also, I call "group hug" for how much we're all clearly caring about each others' feelings.

 

I'm just gonna say, I think that "cosmere-aware" means "aware of the cosmere." I wonder if the cosmere itself is the word we're having trouble defining. I don't think the cosmere refers to the three realms, I believe the word for that is "realmatics". I think the cosmere is basically the name of this specific galaxy. It is a system of several stars with a total of ten (important) planets, each of which hosts a fragment (or more) of a single specific God. I think just knowing about the other planets is technically cosmere-awareness, but true cosmere-awareness is to know at the very least that there's a connection between the divine driving forces of all the planets. Someone like Hoid, obviously, is even more cosmere-aware than we, the readers.

 

As to why I think I was justified in pointing out the first of marianmi's uses of the term, I still thing I was correct. In context, she was specifically saying what the Lift interlude itself tells us. I don't think there's anything in that specific interlude that reveals that Wyndle knows one thing about the cosmere as a whole. He doesn't mention one other planet, any Shard not from Roshar, or any other system of Investiture. In fact, the fact that Lift's trait is so at least cosmetically similar to allomancy, and yet he says he's never seen anything like it, speaks to him being cosmere-unaware.

 

I've seen a few people point to Syl's recognition of Odium as proof that Wyndle is cosmerically aware, and I have two things to reply to this. First, even if true, the post I was referring to said that this interlude showed cosmere-awareness, and Odium wasn't mentioned here. Whether something from a different chapter of a different book might imply something else isn't what's being debated; the point is we were talking about the impact of what was introduced in this chapter, specifically. Second, Odium is a huge force on Roshar. Knowing his name, knowing he's here to destroy, knowing he killed Tanavast and Splintered Honor, none of that makes anyone cosmere-aware, as those are all things that pertain to Roshar. If someone were to know he came from a different planet, or that he's slain other Gods, or that Harmony is Ruin and Preservation combined, would make someone cosmere-aware.

 

And, I suppose most importantly (and maybe I should have led with this), I think that marianmi has said that she never intended to suggest that Wyndle knew of worlds beyond Roshar. She used the term when she meant that he knew of the different Realms. She used the term at the time that she thought was appropriate, and in my opinion she thought that because she's seen it elsewhere on this forum, because I've seen it used to mean that elsewhere, too. I happen to think it's an improper definition is all, and I wanted to point it out in the hopes that people will stop using it, so the next person like marianmi who comes along trying to learn terms won't learn them wrong.

 

Just one man's opinion.

[Shardlet]

Your point, hoser, that some leeway should be given to people when using mushy terminology (Note: Not the case here with marianmi. I am speaking generally), I wholeheartedly agree with.  There is somewhat of a learning curve here with what we do here.  However, knowingly using such terminology when there is more accurate and precise terminology available (again, not the case here since we have not yet, as a community, established accepted definition and differentiation between cosmere-aware and realmatically-aware) does little more than sow confusion and misinformation.  Obviously we should avoid speaking in an exclusionary way, but the means are there for people to learn terminology.  I was able to learn fairly quickly what realmatics was and that is about the most ivory-tower-type terminology that we have.  Other things like fMetal or aMetal and our many many many acronyms are generally easily gathered via context (the acronyms I have a more difficult time understanding are the net-speak ones. I still haven't figured out FWIW ).  One of the more confusing ambiguities I have seen is using the word shards to refer to plat and blades.  While TWOK indeed uses that term, it is confusing for it to be used in that manner.

 

I think my next project is going to be to begin a 17S glossary of terminology where the first post is an ever-expanding glossary and the overall thread is a means for establishing agreed upon conventions.  Maybe we can avoid confusion in the future as well as establish a useful tool for new sharders.

[hoser]

I am so pleased with the general tone and content of these posts that I refuse to argue any longer.  Stepping aside from being right about the past (a failing of mine), I wonder whether part of the issue is the terms we have.  We have realmatic and cosmere, but these spren know realms and local Shards.  They may know about more worlds and Shards, but we can't really tell.  It is easier to type cosmere or realm than, more precisely, realms and local Shards.  So our beloved jargon encourages imprecision in addition to the learning curve issues you allude to.  That said, I endorse your project and appreciate your persistent efforts to communicate (including helping you overtake zas). 

Your point, hoser, that some leeway should be given to people when using mushy terminology (Note: Not the case here with marianmi. I am speaking generally), I wholeheartedly agree with.  There is somewhat of a learning curve here with what we do here.  However, knowingly using such terminology when there is more accurate and precise terminology available (again, not the case here since we have not yet, as a community, established accepted definition and differentiation between cosmere-aware and realmatically-aware) does little more than sow confusion and misinformation.  Obviously we should avoid speaking in an exclusionary way, but the means are there for people to learn terminology.  I was able to learn fairly quickly what realmatics was and that is about the most ivory-tower-type terminology that we have.  Other things like fMetal or aMetal and our many many many acronyms are generally easily gathered via context (the acronyms I have a more difficult time understanding are the net-speak ones. I still haven't figured out FWIW ).  One of the more confusing ambiguities I have seen is using the word shards to refer to plat and blades.  While TWOK indeed uses that term, it is confusing for it to be used in that manner.

 

I think my next project is going to be to begin a 17S glossary of terminology where the first post is an ever-expanding glossary and the overall thread is a means for establishing agreed upon conventions.  Maybe we can avoid confusion in the future as well as establish a useful tool for new sharders.

FWIW=For What It's Worth

These net acronyms can just be googled, FWIW. 

[Shardlet]

FWIW=For What It's Worth

These net acronyms can just be googled, FWIW. 

 

Lol.   Thanks.  I know, I have googled many.  I just had not cared enough yet to google that one yet.  

[Iarvos]

On the other end of the spectrum, of course, you have Hoid and the Shards who each have a rather complete knowledge of things of cosmeric importance.

What is Sazed's level of Cosmere knowledge? I believe it is implied that he knows of other Shards, probably enough to be very aware of which are threats - but how aware is he of history? Has he had conversations with other non-hostile shards?

[WeiryWriter]

What is Sazed's level of Cosmere knowledge? I believe it is implied that he knows of other Shards, probably enough to be very aware of which are threats - but how aware is he of history? Has he had conversations with other non-hostile shards?

 

I don't really know the answer but he is "aware" of what is happening on Roshar.

 

 

Q: Is Sazed going to show up in the Stormlight Archive?

B: I’m going to give you one of these… He is aware of what is happening.

Edited December 24, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Shardlet]

I think his cosmere awareness is steadily increasing (probably at a relatively fast rate).  I think he did not have any immediate knowledge just after he took up Ruin and Preservation.