Stormlight != Investiture, Invested Oaths, also "Surgebinding" type Zero

[Shardlet he/him]

We don't know for sure, but the biome's adaption to the storms strongly suggests that there were.

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Not to be a buzzkill, but given that Wyndle himself (who may or may not be a splinter...lol) is confused by and cannot explain Lift's situation, I think it is safe to say that attempting to use Lift as an example to explain anything in the Cosmere is a fool's errand...this way lies madness! ;-)

[Oudeis he/him]

Have we seen any evidence of biome adaptation in the past?

 

Not to be a buzzkill, but given that Wyndle himself (who may or may not be a splinter...lol) is confused by and cannot explain Lift's situation, I think it is safe to say that attempting to use Lift as an example to explain anything in the Cosmere is a fool's errand...this way lies madness! ;-)

 

But I like madness...

[Shardlet he/him]

Well, there's the fact the the 'grasses' recede into the ground, the trees lay down, the rockbuds close up, the animals have an exoskeleton to protect them, etc.  It seems to me that all of this is to survive the storms primarily.  So, either they were created that way originally in conjunction with the storms, they were created in some other form and became what they are through natural selection because of the storms (which would take a very very very long time), or they were something else and then the storms came and then the biome was altered to compensate for the storms.

 

As an aside: Here is my final (yeah, right) words on Lift's food to stormlight conversion:  So, the power of Adonalsium (and by extension the shards) is the power of creation.  Presumably the power of creation was used in the creation of much of what we know as the cosmere.  For example, we know that Adonalsium spent some time on Roshar and expended power there.  We know that matter may be converted into energy and energy may be converted to matter.  This suggests to me that either or both of matter  and/or energy may be converted to the power of creation since it seems fairly likely that the power of creation can be converted into matter and energy (i.e., creation using the power of creation).  That being the case, I see no problem at all with the concept of Lift converting matter into stormlight (i.e., investiture, the power of creation).  Nothing is being made, nothing is being destroyed.  It obeys the laws of physics and meta-physics.    

 

Wow! My aside seems to have overtaken my original thought.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Shardlet

[Oudeis he/him]

Well, there'es the fact the the 'grasses' recede into the ground, the trees lay down, the rockbuds close up, the animals have an exoskeleton to protect them, etc.  It seems to me that all of this is to survive the storms primarily.  So, either they were created that way originally in conjunction with the storms, they were created in some other form and became what they are through natural selection because of the storms (which would take a very very very long time), or they were something else and then the storms came and then the biome was altered to compensate for the storms.

 

I think we all know all that... my question is, do we see retracting grass or lying trees in the past? In the prologue or any of Dalinar's visions?

[Shardlet he/him]

My point is, either they were there or they weren't.  I don't see any indication that there was a massive change made to the flora and fauna on Roshar that happened substantially instantly shortly after the storms started.  It seems to me that such a change would have been even more notable than the Recreance.  The Recreance was chalked up to human choice, but such an event as a virtual makeover of the entire continent would be at least as widely noted.  Add to that, Dalinar does not notice any difference in flora or fauna.  Being in an unfamiliar place with vastly different plants and animals would be rather noteworthy.  Consider Rysn's reaction to grass and soil.  So, in light of all this, I would expect that the plants and animals currently known on Roshar were substantially the same back in the day and that the highstorms (in some form) were active during that time. 

Edited December 12, 2013 by Shardlet

[Meg]

I think we all know all that... my question is, do we see retracting grass or lying trees in the past? In the prologue or any of Dalinar's visions?

The visions: From the Recreance-vision:

 

The sunlight did little to dispel the cold, and the weather explained the lack of grass; the blades would be retracted into their holes, awaiting the relief of spring weather.

Okay, this was surely past the Desolations.

But here from the Starfalls-vision:

 

He burst out into violet moonlight. He was in a small lait—a wide rift in the stone with good enough drainage to avoid flooding and a high stone outcropping to break the highstorms. In this case, the eastern rock formation was shaped like an enormous wave, creating shelter for a small village.

And even better:

 

The landscape was rough with boulders and rockbuds, their vines and leaves extended in the cool, wet night.

So there is information about plants from the time of the Desolations.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Meg

[Shardlet he/him]

Excellent work Meg.  It could also be noted that many ancient cities, such as Sesemalex Dar, Kholinar, and Karbranth are situated in locations isolated and protected from the storms.

[Oudeis he/him]

 And even better:

 

So there is information about plants from the time of the Desolations.

 

I should like to point out that only that last one is good evidence that life was used to highstorms even back then. The rest of them are like the time when he said, "It was too dark to see spren, or else he'd surely see fearspren around her." He sees a lack of grass, and since he's used to how grass works in his time, he just assumes "oh, it must be for this reason." I'd still quibble, but yeah, that last one is as solid proof as I could ask for.

 

Thank you!

[marianmi]

Well, there's the fact the the 'grasses' recede into the ground, the trees lay down, the rockbuds close up, the animals have an exoskeleton to protect them, etc.  It seems to me that all of this is to survive the storms primarily.  So, either they were created that way originally in conjunction with the storms, they were created in some other form and became what they are through natural selection because of the storms (which would take a very very very long time), or they were something else and then the storms came and then the biome was altered to compensate for the storms.

 

As an aside: Here is my final (yeah, right) words on Lift's food to stormlight conversion:  So, the power of Adonalsium (and by extension the shards) is the power of creation.  Presumably the power of creation was used in the creation of much of what we know as the cosmere.  For example, we know that Adonalsium spent some time on Roshar and expended power there.  We know that matter may be converted into energy and energy may be converted to matter.  This suggests to me that either or both of matter  and/or energy may be converted to the power of creation since it seems fairly likely that the power of creation can be converted into matter and energy (i.e., creation using the power of creation).  That being the case, I see no problem at all with the concept of Lift converting matter into stormlight (i.e., investiture, the power of creation).  Nothing is being made, nothing is being destroyed.  It obeys the laws of physics and meta-physics.    

 

Wow! My aside seems to have overtaken my original thought.

 

1) I very much doubt that a person can transform dirt into e.g. Breath.

2) Stormlight, which Lift transforms food into, seems particularly tied to Honor (The Stormfather for example was Jez, head of Windrunners (or with the power of a Windrunner); Windrunners seem to be the only ones that have 100% full Honorspren bond). I am not sure stormlight is used to fuel Cultivation's magic *** Stormlight is not the only representation of the power of creation on Roshar (we have the dark sphere which is from another shard)... What I'm trying to say is that she does not convert into "the power of creation" - otherwise Odium would change every rock into power and use it against other shards - but she gains specifically stormlight. Again, my theory here is that she "burns" fat to access stormlight, like allomancers "burn" metals to access the power on Scadrial. There are not many who like my theory though

 

 

*** of course, maybe the surges and stormlight is a mix of Honor + Cultivation, and stormlight is used for both, like the Dor is used for both Devotion and Dominion

Edited December 12, 2013 by marianmi

[Shardlet he/him]

1) I very much doubt that a person can transform dirt into e.g. Breath.

2) Stormlight, which Lift transforms food into, seems particularly tied to Honor (The Stormfather for example was Jez, head of Windrunners (or with the power of a Windrunner); Windrunners seem to be the only ones that have 100% full Honorspren bond). I am not sure stormlight is used to fuel Cultivation's magic *** Stormlight is not the only representation of the power of creation on Roshar (we have the dark sphere which is from another shard)... What I'm trying to say is that she does not convert into "the power of creation" - otherwise Odium would change every rock into power and use it against other shards - but she gains specifically stormlight. Again, my theory here is that she "burns" fat to access stormlight, like allomancers "burn" metals to access the power on Scadrial. There are not many who like my theory though

 

 

*** of course, maybe the surges and stormlight is a mix of Honor + Cultivation, and stormlight is used for both, like the Dor is used for both Devotion and Dominion

 

1) I very much doubt that you (meaning you personally) could change a rock into energy.  But, if you were given the necessary tools, I would expect that you could do it (tools comprising not only equipment, but also the knowledge to properly operate the equipment).

 

2) Fine, let's call stormlight a flavor of the power of creation.  The fact remains though that the power of each shard is the power of creation (source).  The point is, that it is not unreasonable that Lift was given the ability to freely convert food/fat to stormlight.  As to your theory, I have no real problem with it except that there is no way she could have metabolized the roll to fat and burned that fat to access stormlight that quickly.  Your theory is fine.  I just think it needs a bit of tweaking to make it more complete.

[hoser he/him]

@Shardlet - I am probably misunderstanding something.  Would you please help me understand what you're saying?

Well,...

As an aside: Here is my final (yeah, right) words on Lift's food to stormlight conversion:  So, the power of Adonalsium (and by extension the shards) is the power of creation.  Presumably the power of creation was used in the creation of much of what we know as the cosmere.  For example, we know that Adonalsium spent some time on Roshar and expended power there.  We know that matter may be converted into energy and energy may be converted to matter.  This suggests to me that either or both of matter  and/or energy may be converted to the power of creation since it seems fairly likely that the power of creation can be converted into matter and energy (i.e., creation using the power of creation).  That being the case, I see no problem at all with the concept of Lift converting matter into stormlight (i.e., investiture, the power of creation).  Nothing is being made, nothing is being destroyed.  It obeys the laws of physics and meta-physics.    

 

Wow! My aside seems to have overtaken my original thought.

It seems to me that Odium could then vaporize planets to gain investiture and become so powerful that no other Shard could withstand him. 

 

I've been assuming that Shards have a more or less fixed amount of power, which returns to them after use (unless invested). Do you have a different model?

[Shardlet he/him]

There clearly are limits on what each Shard can do on an individual basis (i.e., Preservation can read minds but not speak to someone's mind. Ruin is the opposite).  Given that, I assume that there are a variety of limitations each Shard has where some of which apply individually and others universally.  Your's is a point to be reckoned with.  I am not simply going to wave my hands to make it go away.  But, for one thing, I don't think Odium's goal is to destroy everything.  He could do much of that (I presume) through manipulation of atomic forces if he wanted to.  The planets likely have uranium or other radioactive materials which could be refined and used to causes atomic explosions.  Ruin clearly had the capacity to destroy Scadrial.  Preservation's power could have been used by Rashek, Vin, or Sazed to send Scadrial on a collision course with its sun.  Point is, if wanton destruction was the goal, most, if not all, Shards have the capacity to carry it out unless their intent directly interferes.  Insofar as we are talking about Odium v. Honor, if Odium has the capacity to convert matter into power, then presumably Honor could have done the same to counter him.

[hoser he/him]

@Shardlet - thanks for indulging my curiosity

There clearly are limits on what each Shard can do on an individual basis (i.e., Preservation can read minds but not speak to someone's mind. Ruin is the opposite).  Given that, I assume that there are a variety of limitations each Shard has where some of which apply individually and others universally.  Your's is a point to be reckoned with.  I am not simply going to wave my hands to make it go away.  But, for one thing, I don't think Odium's goal is to destroy everything.  He could do much of that (I presume) through manipulation of atomic forces if he wanted to.  The planets likely have uranium or other radioactive materials which could be refined and used to causes atomic explosions.  Ruin clearly had the capacity to destroy Scadrial.  Preservation's power could have been used by Rashek, Vin, or Sazed to send Scadrial on a collision course with its sun.  Point is, if wanton destruction was the goal, most, if not all, Shards have the capacity to carry it out unless their intent directly interferes.  Insofar as we are talking about Odium v. Honor, if Odium has the capacity to convert matter into power, then presumably Honor could have done the same to counter him.

The difficulty I had with your original post was that it has seemed that the Shards each had a fixed amount of power.  If Shards can generate excess power by converting non-Shard objects, then their power would not be fixed. 

I was not suggesting that Odium wanted to destroy things, but building on the understanding that Odium wanted to be at a power level greater than any other being. 

So. if investiture is the power of a Shard, then Lift creating investiture suggests that Shard power levels are not fixed.  If Lift is converting or transferring investiture somehow, then it would fit the "Conservation of Investiture" model.  Your previous post seemed to suggest that you thought the "Conservation of Investiture" model was not accurate. 

[marianmi]

@hoser - I tried to phrase the same doubt. If Lift can do this thing, a gift from Nightwatcher - presumably Cultivation - then Shards should be able to do it, too - then one of them could become very powerful just destroying stuff (e.h. unhabitated planets).

 

Let's not forget there is also "native investiture" - humans have it for example (different from Breath). Like you, I like to think the Shard's power a closed system, with a fixed amount of power. I don't think a shard can "absorb" a human's "native investiture" (and become more powerful), and I don't think Lift "converts" native investiture (from food) into Shard-compatible investiture (like stormlight). My opinion, expressed too many times, is that , burning fat, she "transfers" stormlight - maybe from the same place stormlight exists when there is no Highstorm.

Edited December 15, 2013 by marianmi

[hoser he/him]

@hoser - I tried to phrase the same doubt. If Lift can do this thing, a gift from Nightwatcher - presumably Cultivation - then Shards should be able to do it, too - then one of them could become very powerful just destroying stuff (e.h. unhabitated planets).

 

Let's not forget there is also "native investiture" - humans have it for example (different from Breath). Like you, I like to think the Shard's power a closed system, with a fixed amount of power. I don't think a shard can "absorb" a human's "native investiture" (and become more powerful), and I don't think Lift "converts" native investiture (from food) into Shard-compatible investiture (like stormlight). My opinion, expressed too many times, is that , burning fat, she "transfers" stormlight - maybe from the same place stormlight exists when there is no Highstorm.

@marianmi - yes, I know that part of what you were questioning was that Lift could "create" investiture.  I did not want to be in the position of interpreting your writings. 

The other issue for me is that while I agree with your "closed system" concept and think it is similar to what I was trying to express with "conservation of investiture", you seemed very certain about the mechanism.  I believe that she is getting investiture from somewhere, but have only speculations about how it works. 

Shardlet made the point that there wasn't really time for digesting a roll to fat and then using the fat to transfer stormlight.  In this respect, I see a reasonable point.  There may be such a mechanism, but I see the need for an additional pathway for Lift to access investiture quckly from food if we are to explain the interlude in question. 

[marianmi]

Maybe her stomach is a point of leaking stormlight into the physical, and she's not using fat, rather her stomach acids are creating a mini "highstorm" in there that brings on the Awesomeness... Or maybe she's burning "food" like metals, not "fat" - so she only needs something in her stomach...

 

The exact mechanism does not really matter. There is only one Lift interlude in WoR, and there is no guarantee we shall see Lift again, and I very much doubt we shall see someone else with her ability. And I'm not sure we'll get a WoB about the exact mechanism, so we are all left with guesses, and your guess or Shardlet's is as good as mine. I see the point about "conservation of Sharding power" being more important here.

 

By the way  ... speaking of food...

 

Edited December 15, 2013 by marianmi

[Meg]

*** of course, maybe the surges and stormlight is a mix of Honor + Cultivation, and stormlight is used for both, like the Dor is used for both Devotion and Dominion

Would you please be so kind and explain, what you mean with "is used for" in this case?

If I understand it right, the Dor as well as the Stormlight are the "fuel" (I'm not happy with this word) the Shards "magic systems" (the AonDor on Sel and the Surges on Roshar).

I apologize if I (again) didn't understand you right.

[Shardlet he/him]

@hoser - I tried to phrase the same doubt. If Lift can do this thing, a gift from Nightwatcher - presumably Cultivation - then Shards should be able to do it, too - then one of them could become very powerful just destroying stuff (e.h. unhabitated planets).

 

Unless it is something unique to Cultivation's skillset.  It may also require something that Shards themselves do not have (i.e., a digestive system or some other apparatus).  In other words, I can make or tweak an apparatus to perform a function which I myself cannot do.    

[marianmi]

 

*** of course, maybe the surges and stormlight is a mix of Honor + Cultivation, and stormlight is used for both, like the Dor is used for both Devotion and Dominion

 

Would you please be so kind and explain, what you mean with "is used for" in this case?

If I understand it right, the Dor as well as the Stormlight are the "fuel" (I'm not happy with this word) the Shards "magic systems" (the AonDor on Sel and the Surges on Roshar).

I apologize if I (again) didn't understand you right.

 

I think you did. Let me rephrase:

 

Of course, maybe [...] stormlight is a mix of Honor + Cultivation and stormlight is used for fuelling both Honor and Cultivation's (shared) magic system.

 

 

Unless it is something unique to Cultivation's skillset.  It may also require something that Shards themselves do not have (i.e., a digestive system or some other apparatus).  In other words, I can make or tweak an apparatus to perform a function which I myself cannot do.    

 

Of course! Unless even Cultivation cannot do it herself, and can only award it to humans. Unless, there are 1000's "unless".

But truly now, how probably do you think Cultivation has the unique ability to convert native investiture into *other shard's investiture*? Nothing can stop me from saying she can also gift someone the ability to drink water and create Dor out of it, because why not?. And you can't prove me wrong. Currently, nothing is impossible and you can invent whatever works for you, but why invent some unique ability, instead of fitting it with something that is there already, and also used similarly in Brandon's other works? Are you arguing just for the argue sake here?

Edited December 16, 2013 by marianmi

[Shardlet he/him]

Of course! Unless even Cultivation cannot do it herself, and can only award it to humans. Unless, there are 1000's "unless".

But truly now, how probably do you think Cultivation has the unique ability to convert native investiture into *other shard's investiture*? Nothing can stop me from saying she can also gift someone the ability to drink water and create Dor out of it, because why not?. And you can't prove me wrong. Currently, nothing is impossible and you can invent whatever works for you, but why invent some unique ability, instead of fitting it with something that is there already, and also used similarly in Brandon's other works? Are you arguing just for the argue sake here?

 

I'm neither arguing a point or even saying that you are wrong in any way.  I was merely addressing concerns that you put forth with the idea that I put forth.  

 

Edit:  If you would be interested in hearing them, I can offer reasons why I hold your theory in doubt.  But, all I did was answer criticisms you offered of my theory.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Shardlet

[marianmi]

I would be glad to hear reasonable concerns. Saying that Cultivation can have a special shardic ability to create stormlight is, to me, given the existing knowledge of the cosmere, something very very improbable, and just looks like arguing for the sake of it.

[Shardlet he/him]

I would be glad to hear reasonable concerns. Saying that Cultivation can have a special shardic ability to create stormlight is, to me, given the existing knowledge of the cosmere, something very very improbable, and just looks like arguing for the sake of it.

 

Whatever. I don't get it marianmi.  You jump all over me for arguing when all I have done so far is answer points of criticism that you have raised to my idea.  How can you criticize someone's idea and then criticize them for answering your criticism?  It sounds like you are the one having a problem.

 

So here is my first and last addressing of your theory.  If you want to know, here is why I think your idea doesn't work.  Brandon has said that allomancy works the way it does is because the molecular structure of each individual metal acts as a filter for the power of Preservation.  You have offered that Lift's fat acts in a similar manner.  Well, what kind of fat?  There are a variety of fats within a person's body.  Each one has a different molecular structure.  Then you get to her eating food and then gaining stormlight moments after consumption.  Well, what fats in that roll corresponded to fats within her body?  It doesn't appear to matter what she eats, the effect is the same.  There is no way her body can process those foods into any kind of fat in a matter of seconds.  On top of that, Lift gets a general form of investiture that she can use for any of her surgebinding abilities.

 

I am sorry for the tone of this post, but I am very frustrated by your comments and your criticism of me for answering your criticism of my idea.

 

Edit: Not actually my first addressing of your theory.  I did touch on it in post #61 to say your theory was fine and I pointed out an aspect which I thought should be addressed for completeness.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Shardlet

[marianmi]

I don't have any problem with you defending your idea. But making up shard's special unique abilities to explain your idea is just silly

 

Your point a few posts back was that she can't process food into fat that fast. I totally agree with that. This is why I said (or tried to) in an earlier post that probably it's not fat. And I also said that it does not really matter the exact mechanics (if it is fat, food, spit, gastric acid or whatever). And I will repeat here why:

1) Lift is the only one that has this ability, and the chances of anyone else having it are very slim.

2) In WoR, there is only one interlude with Lift, the one which we already read. This means that, from the entire WoR book, we will not get any new information about Lift or Wyndle.

3) Lift may or may not appear in future books. This means that, in the best case, we shall see her again towards the end of 2015, in the worst case - never.

 

Now, what do you think her purpose is in the whole picture? My opinion is that she was introduced to:

1) give more information about Darkness - Darkness is the one that shows up in at least one more interlude (Ym - and maybe Jasnah too), and I suspect Darkness will play a more important role in the future;

2) talk about The Ring - an organization of spren!

3) details about how a spren bonds - in this case that spren can choose or initiate a bond, not just mindlessly "become attracted", like Syl

4) show that spren have quite some Cosmere knowledge

5) other small details about spren and the Cosmere, e.g. that they chose Lift because she visited the Nightwatcher. This has impact on the main story, i.e. Dalinar also visited the Nightwatcher.

So, having a person that can eat and produce stormlight is not really the important thing here. Hence my conclusion: is not really important how exactly this thing is achieved. If a spren, with lots of Cosmere knowledge, does not  really know how, I don't think we are supposed to know also.

 

The important point of contention here was: is it possible to "create" stormlight? Does she "creates" stormlight out of food, or does she uses food to "transfer" stormlight in her body? 

 

To the point of everything being invested at creation by Adonalsium, I have explained what I believe about "native investiture" - that is, shards cannot use native investiture or convert it into investiture that they can use (like stormlight). This would be just silly, since one shard could just start eating worlds to grow in power. Hence, I presented my belief that there is a closed system, with each shard having a fixed amount of power. The power can be invested in an object, making it unavailable for a time (like the power in Plate or Blade), or can be used to perform magic, thus being consumed and transferred back in a state that the shard can make use of again (like stormlight, after being consumed after a lash, gets back in the shard's ... pool let's say).

 

To this, you have replied (my interpretation of your words):maybe Cultivation has a special ability that no other shard can have (?!), that is to create stormlight (?). And since she does not have a digestive system, she needs to make others do it, like Lift (!?).

Edited December 17, 2013 by marianmi

[Shardlet he/him]

Maybe her stomach is a point of leaking stormlight into the physical, and she's not using fat, rather her stomach acids are creating a mini "highstorm" in there that brings on the Awesomeness... Or maybe she's burning "food" like metals, not "fat" - so she only needs something in her stomach...

 

 

I'm not the only one producing unusual concepts as possible mechanisms.  I don't see my rationale as being any more reaching than what you tossed out there.  

 

My whole point is that Wyndle is our best source on what is going on with lift.  You have chosen to discredit his information and supply an alternate means instead.  You call my idea fanciful.  I was not looking to prove it, but only to give additional plausibility to Wyndle's account.  I provided evidence of unique shard capabilities in defense of that support and extrapolated further to answer other queries.  If the mechanism doesn't matter to you, then why did you discount Wyndle's information and supply your own mechanism?  I agree that it will be a while before we hear more about Lift.  We may have to get WoB on it after WoR comes out.  If it is not a plot point, I would be somewhat surprised if Brandon was not accommodating   I suspect that, at least eventually, we'll find out how it works.  In the mean time, I don't see any reason to not trust Wyndle on the issue.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Shardlet