More Potential Proof for a Possible Knight of Radiance [Spoilers]

[name_here]

I had a similar theory. Note that even though the experiment only showed that it worked with specific measured numbers, it might be possible to apply it in another manner with the aid of Stormlight.

[marianmi]

I would also like to indicate more clearly what other people already have mentioned. Geranid and Ashir's experiment is very clear that random numbers  - even if it might approximately relate to a specific Spren - have no effect. It has to be the measured value of a specific Spren. 

 

I don't think it's just the value, but also the act of measuring that counts.

[Daishi5]

I don't think it's just the value, but also the act of measuring that counts.

 I wish they would have tried just estimating the size.  I wonder if it happens because of the act of measurement, or the intent to record a property.  

[Aether]

Didn't Ashir suggest imprecise measurements would lock them, but give them a bit of leeway to change parameters within certain limits? Given how most of BS's magic systems works, I think it reasonable to assume it is based on intent rather than the act of measurement itself. So making an estimation would give the Spren leeway to vary around that figure.

 

For example, measuring it to be around 3 inches long would lock it to be approximately 3 inches long, but it would still be able to shift closer to 4 than to 2 and the other way around.

[Argent]

It was an idle thought, a topic of further research. 

[Aether]

It was an idle thought, a topic of further research. 

Sure, but it fits well enough into BS's magic systems that it could be reasonable to assume it is so.

[Argent]

It fits and makes sense, I don't disagree. It seemed like you wanted an answer to your question, so I provided one. But I agree.

 

Though now I want to ask Brandon to tell us how this further research went / would've gone... 

[dionysus]

Didn't Ashir suggest imprecise measurements would lock them, but give them a bit of leeway to change parameters within certain limits? Given how most of BS's magic systems works, I think it reasonable to assume it is based on intent rather than the act of measurement itself. So making an estimation would give the Spren leeway to vary around that figure.

 

For example, measuring it to be around 3 inches long would lock it to be approximately 3 inches long, but it would still be able to shift closer to 4 than to 2 and the other way around.

I think it relates to the error in the measurement device. If the spren is measured to be 10cm +/-1 cm, the spren could fluctate between 9 and 11 cm.

 

BS likes to base his magical systems on physics as much as possible, so psuedo physics if you will. Anyway, the behavior of spren when it comes to measuring them has a resemblance to the Copenhagen interpretation and Schrodinger's Cat in quantum mechanics.

 

From wikipedia, "The Copenhagen interpretation implies that the state of the two systems collapses into a definite state when one of the systems is measured." In essence the flame spren is all size states at the same time until it is measured.

 

Not much use in theorycrafting unless we have more information, but the science nerd in my thinks it is interesting.

Edited November 25, 2013 by dionysus

[Edgedancer]

On Jasnah upholding an ideal with killing the thugs, dosen´t she actually break the first Ideal?

Especially the Journey befor Destination part.

Yes one can argue that it was a good deed because she was making the street safer but her "journey" of going there with the intend of murdering four men she coud have easily captured certainly wasn´t honorable.

 

For the theories on Spren measurment/binding coudn´t it be that the Spren stay in a state because they think they are what others think them to be.

To explain this a bit more: In the same interlude Ashir wonders "Is food there what it seesitselfas being?" (page 884 of the paperback) along whit some other food-Shadesmar-Cognitive realm questions.

Combine this with the idea of Spren being cognitive beings and I get the following theory.

 

Spren don´t normally have a fixed form and change based on what they see. So if they see fire they change into flamespren. The fire flickers so the Spren flicker because they perseive themself as part of the flame at this point. Now when someone measures them they also perceive themself as they was measured. So a flamespren measured at three inches thiks it is three inches tall and stay in that shape.

The reason this only works if the measurment is written down is because spren can´t properly remember thinks so the spren forgets its´ size when the measurment is erased and returns to aligning itself with the fire.

 

This woud fit with both the theorys that Nohadon "fixed" Spren using The way of kings and Syl having made an bond in the past.

KR spren stay as they are because Nohadon fixed them. If they lose theis KRpartner they lose part of what makes them KRspren and they return to a half-consious state where they have to search for a new fitting partner because they can´t change to a new spren form.

Sly fits into this. When her old partner died she lost her focus as a honorspren and with it her memories. When she found Kaladin she retuned to being a proper honorspren and her personality came back.

Her fear of change then woud steam from the fact that her having a personality and memories is unnatural for a spren and why she woud turn back if Kaladin dies.

 

Or at least this is my quick spren theory.

[Aether]

You make some good points. It could be worth noting too, that the different kinds of Spren are, according to WoB, determined by what people perceive about things (see his comments upon Dungspren. Can't find the link right now). They are formed and defined by our impressions of them. Flamespren exist, for example, because we have a cognitive relationship with them. It isn't composed out of "Heat-" and "Lightspren" because we do not perceive the flames as composed of those things, but as a combination of those separate things: a flame. By the same token, we have Windspren, and not also "Gustspren", "Typhoonspren", etc. because we view them as all variations of the same cognitive aspect; and we do not have Spren for things which we do not perceive or care about.

 

The act of measuring them and thus locking them into the different states is just a special case of this - as Edgedancer hinted at.

[Moogle]

On Jasnah upholding an ideal with killing the thugs, dosen´t she actually break the first Ideal?

Especially the Journey befor Destination part.

Yes one can argue that it was a good deed because she was making the street safer but her "journey" of going there with the intend of murdering four men she coud have easily captured certainly wasn´t honorable.

 

She probably 'broke' the Ideal, but I doubt it matters. Swearing more Ideals only increases your Stormlight-efficiency. As long as Jasnah doesn't alienate her spren, she'll be fine. And as we know, not all spren are as 'discerning' as honorspren. I think she's fine.

 

It's also possible that the First Ideal is really vague and there are a lot of ways to interpret it, even going so far as to see it in a utilitarian way. I certainly hope all the Ideals are not all vague deontological phrases, and so far as I can tell, they aren't going to be.

[Natans]

About Jasnah breaking the first ideal, I think that if her order have a a secondary ideal like "Do not let the evil take hold" or something in this line she would be fine. Another thing even life before death is a relative thing. The radiant don't seek take life but they can when that are the only way.

 

We don't know what are the ideals of every order, and as she pointed moral is a relative thing, and likewise the others ideals can be. Maybe by killing that thugs she was indeed acting in accordance with the ideals of her order.

 

And, to me she didn't done anything wrong, my humanitary heart don't fell anything when a murder/thief are killed when they are just about to mug/kill/rxxxp "indefese" women, but hey this is just me. 

Edited November 27, 2013 by Ookla the Puro

[Gloom]

Lets put it this way. If these men were arrested for accosting with the intent to rob and kill Jasnah Kholin and Shallan Davar by the guard, who wasn't doing their job, what do you think the sentence would have been?

 

"the city watch," Jasnah said, "has done nothing. Taravangian has sent them several pointed reprimands, but the captain of the watch is cousin to a very influential light-eyes in the city, and Taravangian is not a terribly powerful king. Some suspect that there is more going on, that the footpads might be bribing the watch. The politics of it are irrelevant at the moment for, as you can see, no members of the watch are guarding the place, despite its reputation.

The only real crime here was that the watch gets off without a hitch. In fact, since Jasnah didn't take credit for it, the watch can. So they look good for neglecting their jobs.

 

Jasnah didn't just roam a random dark alley. She was paying a debt to Taravangian through public service. The area where she was accosted was a known problem area where the victims were murdered. The criminals also stated their intent before Jasnah lit into them. In essence, she was protecting the honest people of Kharbranth.

[hoser]

But we know that Mr. T is in fact very powerful and effective.

The only real crime here was that the watch gets off without a hitch. In fact, since Jasnah didn't take credit for it, the watch can. So they look good for neglecting their jobs.

 

Jasnah didn't just roam a random dark alley. She was paying a debt to Taravangian through public service. The area where she was accosted was a known problem area where the victims were murdered. The criminals also stated their intent before Jasnah lit into them. In essence, she was protecting the honest people of Kharbranth.

The question I have is: What does Mr. T gain by letting this go on?  How does it fit in his plan?

It's like where he asks Jasnah to do soulcasting for him when his men do it just to show off to Szeth when giving him the assassination list.  Mr. T's men got in to where Szeth was trying to do the assassination and could have left the same way.  Instead they soulcast a hole in a wall. 

 

Relating to the thread, the soulcasting that Mr. T asked Jasnah to do seems like a test.  If she didn't soulcast the way people do with the fabrial, then not only is she using a spren, but Mr. T may have suspected it and may now know what she is doing. 

[The Count]

I kind of feel that Jasnah's actions are a counter argument to Nohadon creating the oaths and somehow binding the spren to honourable individuals.

I am not going to debate the honor / morality of the actions Jasnah took. The book makes it quite clear that it is a grey area. I am certain that at least Jasnah's motives were reasonable and she felt that her actions were for the 'greater good'.

But then again maybe Alakavish felt the same?

Taravangian certainly feels that his evil actions are necessary to save the world.

Maybe, rather than binding / changing the spren, Nohadon just created a society where the only path to surgebinding was via the KR.

The silver kingdoms era (as seen in the Starfalls vision) seems to be a world where the common people lead largely simple lives and are insulated from the need for war or battle. The Starfalls windrunner makes it clear that all men who feel the desire for battle should be compelled to come to Urithiru to learn.

So maybe in modern Roshar, as in Nohadon's time... "Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren".

Edited November 28, 2013 by MadRand

[Truthseeker]

I feel that Jasnah is the recipient of harsh judgement around here I personally feel that Kaladin's desecration of the Parshendi dead is a lot worse but gets far less if any criticism.

 

I know this is based less on Jasnah's actions and more on how they will effect any KR ideals but how can this be considered less acceptable than Kaladin's actions?

[Natans]

Kaladin use of the dead parshendi "armors" aren't so bad was killing some thugs. For example, in my country both are crimes, for the first you could get 1 to 3 years, for the second 12 to 30 years, great diference. And like here i think everywhere the second is much more worse than the first.

 

Said this, what Kaladin did was completly necessary for him and brigde 4 survive. When you have two ideal that conflict ( respect of the dead and life) it's necessary to weight both for the most important be preserved. What Kaladin did, to me, was a perfect moral justification given the situation where he was put. 

[Edgedancer]

 

I feel that Jasnah is the recipient of harsh judgement around here I personally feel that Kaladin's desecration of the Parshendi dead is a lot worse but gets far less if any criticism.

 

From what i have seen a lot of criticisem Jasnah gets comes not from the fact that she killed murderers but insted of the circumstences.

Espacially her treating it at least partly as a lesson and still killing them when they were running away.

 

Plus nowadays the bodys of the dead aren´t seem as something as holy as they used to be and Kaladin shows some remorse even if it is mostly directed at Shen.

 

But overall I have to agree with you that Kaladin does get away somewhat scotfree.

Maybe it´s because Sanderson nerver portrais his action as moraly ambigous as he does Jasnahs.

[Moogle]

But overall I have to agree with you that Kaladin does get away somewhat scotfree.

Maybe it´s because Sanderson nerver portrais his action as moraly ambigous as he does Jasnahs.

 

I agree that it's probably this. Shallan makes a huge deal over Jasnah saving lives, but Syl never calls Kaladin out on bribing people or threatening Gaz to make him bridgeleader. If Jasnah killing thugs was written from her point of view, and not that of a scared girl with guilt issues, then I suspect things would be much less morally ambiguous, particularly since we would know Jasnah's motivations.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Moogle

[Aether]

I agree that it's probably this. Shallan makes a huge deal over Jasnah saving lives, but Syl never calls Kaladin out on bribing people or threatening Gaz to make him bridgeleader.

I wouldn't say Syl doesn't call him out - she does voice her disagreement in some instances and shows discomfort at some of the things Kaladin does. However, she does recognize that there are morally grey areas, and that there are instances where reality forces you to do questionable things to achieve necessary goals. Journey before destination, but life before death and whatnot.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Ookla the Omniscient

[Haxors]

I really don't think that Nohadon started or created the KR as in the prelude Jezrien talks about them to Kalak. I've always thought that the breaking of the Oathpact happened well before Nohadon's lifetime

Edited November 30, 2013 by Haxors

[Aether]

I really don't think that Nohadon started or created the KR as in the prelude Jezrien talks about them to Kalak. I've always thought that the breaking of the Oathpact happened well before Nohadon's lifetime

Actually, Aharietiam, the last desolation where the Oathpact was broken, was the last Desolation and happened way after the Lifetime of Nohadon. In Dalinar's vision (chapter 60, you can read it for yourself), he can directly see the aftermatch of a Desolation, and the man presumed to be Nohadon talks about it as well. He muses upon the fact that they are never ready for a Desolation - in fact, it seems to be going worse and worse for humanity - and wants to find a solution to it. This solution is assumed to be the establishing of the Knights Radiant.

 

In the vision, Nohadon refers to Surgebinders, but not KRs. It is also well known that "The Way of Kings" was central to the teachings of the KR, but was not written before the end of Nohadon's life. We can quite safely draw the conclusion that Nohadon heavily influenced the creation of the Knights Radiant - if not establishing them himself.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[junior]

Maybe it´s because Sanderson nerver portrais his action as moraly ambigous as he does Jasnahs.

 

I don't entirely agree with this.  Kaladin himself is uncomfortable with a lot of what he does - including, as it turns out, fighting the Parshendi.  But the difference is that pretty much everyone around him would happily do all of the more questionable things that he does without even thinking twice.  So we don't get the moral objection that Shallan provides.  Syl might object - and does from time to time - but likely has settled on the idea that Kaladin's in a situation in which you sometimes need to do unpleasant things just to stay alive.  As long as he stays away from the really bad things (as opposed to the merely unpleasant), she'll keep her protests to a minimum.  Note, though, that while she doesn't complain about many of the things Kaladin does, she *does* try to learn why he's doing those things.  And she's hardly a saint herself.  Some of the stunts that Kaladin pulls might very well amuse her.  As for the armor?  Who knows?  Kaladin isn't removing the "armor" to take trophies or do something obscene with the body parts.  Plus, they're already dead.  Disturbing dead bodies is usually seen as objectionable, but it doesn't make the dead people any more or less dead.  This might be why Syl doesn't object when Kaladin does what he does to the Parshendi corpses.

 

Finally, Kaladin versus Gaz is the plucky underdog versus his cowardly jerk of a boss.  It's an archetype situation that we recognize, and we already know which side we prefer.

 

As for Jasnah, she killed people.  And while the killing of at least some of them was legimately self-defense, she intentionally provoked their attack.  In other words, she appears to have hypocritically abused a legal technicality of the law in order to side-step the claim of murder when she killed people that she appears to have wanted to kill even before they attacked her.  If the would-be assailants hadn't been Bad Guys, then there'd be no question that she'd committed murder.  It's only the fact that her victims were muggers that provided any moral ground for her to stand on.

 

And one last item, only semi-related.  Some of the comments on the previous page about how Jasnah's actions might square with the presumed oaths of the order her surge-binding would put her into caused me to consider one possible point.  She makes a bit of a deal about the debt that she owes King Taravingion (even if he himself is seemingly unaware of the debt).  It's possible that one of the oaths of the order she falls under involves that very thing.

[Arondell]

As for Jasnah, she killed people.  And while the killing of at least some of them was legimately self-defense, she intentionally provoked their attack.  In other words, she appears to have hypocritically abused a legal technicality of the law in order to side-step the claim of murder when she killed people that she appears to have wanted to kill even before they attacked her.  If the would-be assailants hadn't been Bad Guys, then there'd be no question that she'd committed murder.  It's only the fact that her victims were muggers that provided any moral ground for her to stand on.

 

Actually police use the same methods to catch criminals all the time.  I believe the slang term is a "sting".  Set up the circumstances that seem tempting to a potential criminal and then arrest them.  I also feel Jasnah's moral ground isn't based on the attackers being muggers.  It's that they were obviously intending to assault, rob, and based on prior history, murder Jasnah and Shallan.

 

Obviously Jasnah is in some ways not a nice person.  Its implied that she has suffered some injustice in the past and it has likely affected how she views these things.  She hasn't done anything I could honestly call evil but she can be quite ruthless.  Which I think is the real objection here.  Her methods didn't endanger anyone except the Bad Guys but they were unseemly.

[Haxors]

Thanks Aether, can't believe I missed that, guess I need to do another read through sooner than I planned