The Masculine Arts

[Kadrok]

So I'm reading Way of Kings for the first time, and I'm very much liking Roshar, its magic and its culture. I've spoiled a fair bit for myself by hanging around with you guys too...

This line struck me: "Wardship to a woman of great renown was the best way to be schooled in the feminine arts: music, painting, writing, logic, and science" (65). Now before I say this you should understand that I am training to be a scholar, have a long love of logic, an artistic bent, write really good essays, and want to do a science degree when I hit my midlife crisis. So it should be no surprise to you that my response was: What?! These are the feminine arts?! That's pretty much all there is! Or at least all that's worth doing! Well, what in the mists are the Masculine arts then?!

So lads and ladies, can someone enlighten me? What are the masculine arts, and would any of them be of interest to someone of my persuasion, or am I doomed to feel immense pity and horror when I finally encounter my gold-shadow who was raised in Vorin society?


EDIT: Is this what women have felt like in our world for centuries?

Edited November 11, 2013 by Kadrok

[cem]

You can either become a stormwarden or an ardent. Both has its downsides.

 

For stormwarden, that's the very real possibility of starving since employment is going to be a little hard to find because of a severe lack of highstorms to predict.

 

For an ardent, it is going to be finding a Brightlord to watch over you so you don't rise above your station. You can completely topple our society if you're not careful. No one wants the Hierocracy, so be careful if you go this way.

Edited November 11, 2013 by cem

[Shardlet]

Masculine arts would be business, soldiery, leadership, dueling, farming, etc.  Farming could appeal to you in a manner of speaking (so long as you were always trying to improve yields or overall efficiency).  As an alternative to the aforementioned stormwardenry  or ardentry, you could shoot for being a surgeon.

[cem]

Wow, yeah. I completely forgot about surgeons. I think that's the job for you Kadrok. Assuming you're not squeamish with blood.

[Voidus]

I had the same problem when I read it, particularly since if I was Alethi I'd want to be an artifabrian
But then again as long as you're not in a Vorin culture you can still learn any of them

[Bloodfalcon]

[bartbug]

Ha, well you could always be an Ardent. Ain't nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind forsaking your wealth (which I assume that you have, if you want a career like that) and becoming someone else property. Every man's dream, right?

[Ete'ni]

Isn't it for lighteyes only. So women take care of everything and men take care of warring and religion? And all the rest is for darkeys. Since they are so not lighteyes.

 

And for one, women would be quite comfortable in our era, I wouldn't say that for men though

Edited November 11, 2013 by Aetae

[Gloom]

Not just for Lighteyes. Look at the book seller in Kharbranth. Actually, I'm not sure if he was a lighteyes or not, but I think the example should hold regardless. The masculine and feminine arts hold sway at all levels of Vorin society to some degree.

 

Yeah, who'd be pushing for woman's liberation in this society anyways? They have all the men wrapped around their fingers in a way. The men are too prideful to acknowledge that leaving all those arts in the care of women or emasculated men is harmful to their own development. Even in business, the man is relegated to the level of senior manager without the ability to manage things below his level of management. This is basically creating a figurehead leader because he is incapable of actually affecting change at a lower level because he lacks the skills necessary to enact those changes.

[name_here]

The ardents are outside of gender roles. It seems like the masculine arts are mostly the things that involve physical labor, plus surgery and being stormwardens. If it involves thinking and is not military, it's usually feminine. So yeah, scientifically-inclined men go into the ardentia.

[Natans]

Now a silly doubt. The Law professions (judge, lawyer, etc) are a masculine or feminine art ?

 

Commerce and physical labor are a masculine. Art and science are femine.

 

But I think that law professions could be masculine or feminine, I can see both genders was lawyers, judges. (The women because of study, and the men because of the power that in entitled). Any thoughts ? 

Edited November 11, 2013 by Natans

[name_here]

I expect that men act as judges while women consult precedents and may act as lawyers.

[cem]

I expect that men act as judges while women consult precedents and may act as lawyers.

Makes sense. It all depends on what kind of judiciary system we're talking about of course. I can't remember reading anything about courts of law. Maybe whoever is the highest ranking lighteyes in a place gets to act as a judge. Citylord in towns and so on. I'm also guessing darkeyes don't get lawyers at all. Whoever's the authority probably listen to witnesses and decides the verdict.

 

Edit: Oh, I forgot. The duels between lighteyes are officiated by women who are called highjudges. I don't know whether that has anything to do with law or not.

Edited November 11, 2013 by cem

[Scott]

I think the majority of Darkeyes wouldn't get much of a trial, especially when up against the word of a lighteyes, but I think the higher ranking ones have that right.  Lirin tells Roshone something like "I'd win a judgement and you know it" when discussing the spheres.

 

Don't have the book handy, so can't look for the exact quote.

[Natans]

Makes sense. It all depends on what kind of judiciary system we're talking about of course. I can't remember reading anything about courts of law. Maybe whoever is the highest ranking lighteyes in a place gets to act as a judge. Citylord in towns and so on. I'm also guessing darkeyes don't get lawyers at all. Whoever's the authority probably listen to witnesses and decides the verdict.

 

Edit: Oh, I forgot. The duels between lighteyes are officiated by women who are called highjudges. I don't know whether that has anything to do with law or not.

 

Given the nature of Vorin culture they probably must have some kind Common Law system, and if so make sense that the Women acts like laywers. Upvote for you name_here =)

 

I had forget this one about High Judges, and given the fact they take very serious duel, I think that indeed the "Law study" must be a feminine art, after all to apply the rules you must be able to read it LOL =)

 

So in the military the commanders rule the cases, Amaram making Kaladin a slave prove this.

 

And in the civil, a highjudge maybe apply the law.

 

Another thought, Kaladin's father tried to use the law to beat Roshone. So if Roshone "broked" the law they would need call a highjudges to rule the case ? If so indeed almost all the power in Vorin Culture is in the hands of the women.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Natans

[Ete'ni]

I wouldn't woner if men left all the boring stuff to women and just went to play with shardblades instead. I mean, hunting must be masculine art and I know a couple of men that think of it as one. Might be fishing some big, really big fish can be counted as masculine art. Or, some hourse training, racing and neck breaking things

[name_here]

I think the majority of Darkeyes wouldn't get much of a trial, especially when up against the word of a lighteyes, but I think the higher ranking ones have that right.  Lirin tells Roshone something like "I'd win a judgement and you know it" when discussing the spheres.

 

Don't have the book handy, so can't look for the exact quote.

 

As I recall, second nahn came with right of inquest, which was apparently what would let Lirin win a judgement. There are some indications that lower-ranked darkeyes receive some kind of trial, but apparently not a very good one. At a guess, the ranking Brightlord judges and sentences them at his discretion, but there might be some theoretical possibility of appeal, or at least a possibility that their boss will reign them in if they blatantly abuse their powers. Some of Kaladin's scenes imply even the bridgemen can't simply be executed out of hand; I think anyone who wanted to convict a low-rank darkeyes would need to provide about as much evidence as the modern justice system requires to prosecute someone in the first place and the right of inquest guarantees a proper trial before an impartial judge/jury.

 

At the very least, I'm pretty sure Kaladin avoided execution after becoming problematic with bridge four because he'd need to be charged with something first, thus potentially drawing attention. Even if he didn't receive any sort of trial, if the charges were obviously fabricated it would significantly harm the reputation of everyone involved.

 

Also, we actually do see a piece of the legal system after a fashion. Kaladin receives a trial by ordeal when he's tied up in the Highstorm, and we hear about prisoners being chained to rocks for days and let free if the greatshells don't get them elsewhere. I would assume that "facing Stormfather's judgement" is voluntary for people of higher status, and rarely taken because it's essentially a death sentence so it only appeals to people charged with capital crimes. At a guess, prisoners can potentially voluntarily accept a trial by ordeal instead of a standard trial.

 

The social and religious structure would also seem to support trial by combat, since Highprinces are meant to be military commanders and hold religious authority over everyone else; this could potentially be taken to mean that the Almighty shows his favor through victory in battle and so the victor in a fair duel concerning a legal matter is the correct one. Then again, the Alethi might not agree with that logic. If there is a trial by combat option, I expect it has to be invoked by the defendant, and probably there are some rules involving selection of champions by one or both parties, so as to prevent egregious abuse. If Dalinar could potentially represent whichever side he believes is correct, I don't think people who can't win a fair trial would invoke it very often.

 

Now for some unfocused rambling prompted by reading a bunch of medieval law codes for school lately. The Alethi may or may not have state prosecution; that is, if someone is murdered then the local government might or might not be obligated to investigate and punish the perpetrator. Without state prosecution, the victim's family or someone else considered to be an injured party would have to file suit; the local lord might be obligated to assist them in gathering evidence and seeking witnesses or might not. I'm guessing that people don't get public defenders. It's fairly likely that trials of lighteyes, and thus probably second or first nahn, are before a court comprised of some set of brightlords; at a guess, all the vassals of the lowest-ranked person who holds authority over both parties.

Edited November 11, 2013 by name_here

[Maximus]

I believe Brandon stated somewhere that the safehand custom grew out of the idea that feminine arts were those that could be done with one hand while masculine arts required two.

[Argent]

I believe Brandon stated somewhere that the safehand custom grew out of the idea that feminine arts were those that could be done with one hand while masculine arts required two.

 

Source

[Kurkistan]

You could probably get away with being an architect, if you're feeling artistic. Also note how "mathematics" was not included on the list (which lets stormwardens do their statistical shenanigans), so that opens up a number of fields.

[Kadrok]

You could probably get away with being an architect, if you're feeling artistic. Also note how "mathematics" was not included on the list (which lets stormwardens do their statistical shenanigans), so that opens up a number of fields.

Lol. I'm probably below average at maths by now (though I can number crunch pretty well thanks to my time as a croupier). If someone had bothered to explain what Maths was for during high school, maybe I'd have been more interested (I'm kind of a big picture guy... likewise, if someone had explained that science was essentially magic, I wouldn't have been waiting till my midlife crisis to do a science degree).

 

Wow, yeah. I completely forgot about surgeons. I think that's the job for you Kadrok. Assuming you're not squeamish with blood.

Lol. I am squeamish with blood. I have assiduously avoided medicine in our world for this very reason.

 

Isn't it for lighteyes only. So women take care of everything and men take care of warring and religion? And all the rest is for darkeys. Since they are so not lighteyes.

This gets the biggest "lol" because I've just realised that my dark brown eyes aren't going to give me the best start in life on Roshar* (though they occasionally shine with a green light, so there's hope for me I guess...). Maybe I'll just stick to Scadrial...

 

*Wait, can dark-eyes become Ardents?

[Gloom]

Yes, you can be an ardent with dark eyes. I believe in one of Kaladins flashback chapters his options were laid out for him. He could be a surgeon, a Stormwarden, or and ardent. It's likely that a dark eyed ardent would find it more difficult to rise in the ranks of the Ardentia, and it's likely that as a dark eyed ardent you would start off as the equivalent of a friar traveling from village to village rather than being placed in a nobles household or something of a similar nature.

[Guest Alaxel]

The most Masculine of all the Masculine Arts:

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.

[EmagSamurai]

The most Masculine of all the Masculine Arts:

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.

Awesome! As bad as it is, I still love that movie!

[Gamma Fiend]

Crazy how you've held off reading for so long while browsing the forums. Has to be a unique perspective, knowing all the Cosmere and spoiler-y stuff, but actually reading it for the first time.

Definitely wouldn't mind hearing some of your thoughts or insights you get from the read-through.