Spren Bonding

[Argent]

I've been meaning to post something about this every since I first read Lift's interlude from Words of Radiance.

 

The key observation I wanted to make is that Wyndle's... first encounters with Lift seem very different from Syl's ones with Kaladin. While Syl was attracted by Kaladin's leadership, desire to protect, and sense of honor and slowly bonded with him, gaining heightened consciousness, Wyndle treats his bond more like a... job. He seems to have already been quite knowledgeable about realmatics in general and applications of Investiture on Roshar in particular. 

 

Looking at the other spren that seem to have either bonded or be in the process of bonding with their candidate-Radiants, it seems like Wyndle is an exception. We might be seeing the results of Jasnah's spren's playfulness in the Words of Radiance prologue. Ym's spren is really shy. Shallan is in... a strange position. She definitely sees multiple Cryptics, so we don't know what's going on with her.

 

Originally I was going to make the pseudo-random claim that spren with higher "concentration" of Honor in them are more lost, and it is their Nahel bond that allows them to achieve higher thinking and knowledge; this on behalf of Honor being Splintered. On the other hand, I was going to argue, spren that are more of Cultivation would already be in a state of higher functioning and would probably form their bond much more quickly, as they would be able to teach their Radiants-to-be much faster. Actually, I think I'll still make this argument (I just erased a paragraph full of shaky arguments against this). Pretty much all of the spren that have formed or are forming a bond seem to follow the pattern. 

 

So I'll make the following claim. The reason Syl - and presumably the other four "male" Orders' bondingspren - shows so much less knowledge than Wyndle is because she is not in her "normal" state due to Honor's Splintering. I claim that all (bonding?) spren are supposed to be as knowing and functioning as Wyndle, but Odium effectively crippled half of them.

[Kurkistan]

We have this line from Wyndle: "'I . . . I’m not sure. Mistress, the transition to your side was difficult and left holes in my memory, even with the precautions my people took. I . . .'. This implies that those "precautions" are the reason he wasn't brain-scrambled, not necessarily any innate quality on his part.

 

True, maybe Cultivation!Spren are special in retaining this knowledge/ability and/or a society capable of taking precautions, and maybe Honorspren were cast adrift upon Honor's splintering, or some other eventuality, but "precautions" is the name of the game.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Stormfather]

I concur   Especially since we were posting this at about the same time.  I think that Odium went after Honor and his spren for one of two reasons.

 

a - Honor spren are linked to more powerful orders of the KR and thus he feels more threatened by them.

 

b - Odium knew that taking out Honor would in effect take out Cultivation because she would stop caring, whereas if he took out Cultivation, Honor would still fight and possibly fight harder.

[deddinty]

It does seem likely that the transition to the physical realm has some sort of effect on the spren's memory, but I'm not sure if that's the only reason.  I don't want to attribute everything that's bad directly to Odium, as I could see the argument about Honor's death having a big part of it as well.

 

We haven't really seen as much of the cryptics as other spren, and I'm sure we will see a lot of them, but I wonder if they're following the same pattern as well.  

 

What makes me more curious is about Shallan and Elhokar both seeing cryptics, and Shallan seeming to have bonded with them.  They both are keeping secrets from their Mentors, arguably the person they respect most and want to please. Yet these secrets constitute a betrayal on both their parts.  

 

So my question would be, what attracted the cryptics? The fact that an honest person was holding a tight secret from the one they respect most? Or were they directed like Wyndle in a way, because the spren are gathering around the shattered plains and the Kholin's in particular.  That's too much of a coincidence to not wonder if the "Ring" has something to do with it as well.

 

And another question, do you think the spren will eventually regain all of their knowledge as they bond with their human?  For example, if we say that Jasnah has had her spren for 5 years as of WoKs, could some of her knowledge come from her spren?  And she's trying to prove what the spren has told her as much as discover new information?

[Argent]

The only reason I brought Odium up is because I didn't want to repeat "Honor's Splintering" - for purely linguistic reasons. I didn't mean to imply that all this was his plan. Merely that it could've been an unforseen indirect results of his "assassination" of Honor.

[LightReader]

I was thinking something along the same lines, that Syl's lack of cognitive function before bonding with Kaladin was related to Honor's splintering and Tanavast's death while Cultivation is so far intact and therefore her spren are fully cognizant before bonding. Interestingly, it would seem that the cultivation spren are so far mostly male while the honor spren we've seen are female, opposite their shards' holders. I wonder if that pattern will continue.  

[Stormfather]

It does seem likely that the transition to the physical realm has some sort of effect on the spren's memory, but I'm not sure if that's the only reason.  I don't want to attribute everything that's bad directly to Odium, as I could see the argument about Honor's death having a big part of it as well.

 

We haven't really seen as much of the cryptics as other spren, and I'm sure we will see a lot of them, but I wonder if they're following the same pattern as well.  

 

What makes me more curious is about Shallan and Elhokar both seeing cryptics, and Shallan seeming to have bonded with them.  They both are keeping secrets from their Mentors, arguably the person they respect most and want to please. Yet these secrets constitute a betrayal on both their parts.  

 

So my question would be, what attracted the cryptics? The fact that an honest person was holding a tight secret from the one they respect most? Or were they directed like Wyndle in a way, because the spren are gathering around the shattered plains and the Kholin's in particular.  That's too much of a coincidence to not wonder if the "Ring" has something to do with it as well.

 

And another question, do you think the spren will eventually regain all of their knowledge as they bond with their human?  For example, if we say that Jasnah has had her spren for 5 years as of WoKs, could some of her knowledge come from her spren?  And she's trying to prove what the spren has told her as much as discover new information?

 

I personally think the Crytics are more related to cultivation because they still dwell in the cognitive realm.  And Wyndle seemed very familiar with them.  I think you are right that someone having something to hide or some great truth buried deep down could be what attracts them.  It seems like each order has some dominating factor that gets the spren to notice you.

 

I don't like chalking everything bad to Odium either, but I think when it comes to this it just makes sense and would be a clever tactic. I don't think the memory thing is direct effect of Odium, but it could be an unanticipated concequence that helps him more.  If the spren are cut off from their shard then they lose more and more of their function as time goes on, and it could be that Cultivation's spren keep their memories because she brought them into the cognitive realm, whereas Honor could not save his and they were trapped. 

[Kurkistan]

Something worth keeping in mind:

 

Source:

Q. Okay, so Syl, she’s been around for at least a few thousand years, right?
Brandon: Yes.
Q. How does she forget her memories? Is it in connection to humans that makes it so she remembers things?
Brandon: Yes.
Q. And she’s what, a Bonding Spren?
Brandon: You will find out. She [says she’s] an Honorspren, but you will find out.
Zas: Is that bond the Nahel bond?
Brandon: [Nervous grin on Brandon’s face] [laughter] There is a certain amount of... It is a symbiotic bond that is gained by Syl. And things gained by the person bonding. And the stronger presence in the physical realm, and the ability to think better in the physical realm is a part of that bond. She is mostly getting [something] of the physical realm. Without the bond, it is very hard for her to think in this world.
Q. Because she’s windspren.
Brandon: That’s part of it. That’s part of something else.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[11thorderknight]

Well, Brandon's said multiple times that in the Cosmere, all things exist in all three Realms. However, Wyndle talks about his "transition" to the physical realm, and how it was difficult and left holes in his memory, even with precautions. So, my theory is that the Nahel bond allows spren to transfer their consiousness to the physical realm, and it also allows humans (at least in some circumstances) to transfer their consciousness to the cognitive realm. 

[Shardlet]

Kurks quotes are very on point to this question, I think.  Here is my basic idea on bonding spren using Syl and Wyndle as examples.  Both quotes that Kurk provided were the foundation of this idea so it was terribly convenient that he provided them.  Just a note, I lifted this forthcoming paragraph in it's entirety from a post I made in the What spren is Wyndle thread:

 

I personally suspect that bonding spren are basically a base-type spren with extra umph on the side.  So, Syl is a windspren as her base-type, but an honorspren because of the extra.  This extra bit gives her heightened self-awareness with a distinct personality as well as the capability to bond with a person and provide them with enhanced ability via some symbiotic relationship.  From Wyndle's comments, it seems he retained his full self-awareness because he came directly to Lift from the cognitive to initiate the bond.  It is even conceivable that the first stages of bonding were accomplished while Wyndle was in the cognitive realm.  In contrast, Syl has apparently been floating around the physical for quite some time and slowly regained her self-awareness and knowledge as her bond with Kaladin progressed.  She manifested initially as a windspren (her base-type) because she needed that bond to access those portions of herself that make her more than a windspren.

[cem]

We know Cryptics and Wyndle stayed in the Cognitive Realm and they have their memories. We know transitioning into Physical Realm causes a spren to forget. I think it was staying in the Physical Realm without being bonded to someone that made Syl and Ym's spren lose their memories.

 

Maybe Honor's Splintering left some of the sprens unable to cross to the Cognitive Realm. Or maybe they knew they had to stay in the Physical Realm and they chose it. Remember Brandon said spren act like a release valve so there is not as much uncontrolled power in Roshar as in Sel. Radiant spren are Splinters so they have a lot more Investiture than regular spren.

 

 

The curious thing is what's going on with Shallan and Cryptics. First, she is not particularly honest or even that creative. She's more scholar than an artist really even though she can draw amazing pictures. The second why is she interacting with multiple spren? In every other instance we've seen, the spren chose a person then made the Nahel bond. With Shallan, it's like she's appealing the Cryptics to give her Surgebinding.

 

I find Shallan to be a very weird girl.

[Argent]

We know that honorspren are Splinters of Honor - this is by no means a guarantee that the other nine... I shall call them radiantspren... are of similar nature. 

 

But I do agree with you on Shallan's peculiarity. If I were to try to normalize her experience - and I am not sure I want to - I'd say that two theories come to mind:

• Shallan does see a single spren. However, due to the Cryptics' nature, this singular spren appears as if it had multiple bodies, sides, aspects. Interesting (to me), but not terribly well supported.
• What's slightly more likely is that she sees something similar to the Ring Wyndle refers to. A group of spren deciding whether she will receive a spren to bond with, and if she will - which one. It's been a while since I've read those particular chapters in full, but I seem to recall that Shallan hears only one voice asking her for a Truth. 

[cem]

We know that honorspren are Splinters of Honor - this is by no means a guarantee that the other nine... I shall call them radiantspren... are of similar nature. 

Oh, come on. One of the radiantspren is a Splinter but the other 9 aren't? That doesn't make any sense. Why would the Windrunners be any different from other Orders? I know it's not guaranteed but it seems like a very safe assumption to me.

 

• What's slightly more likely is that she sees something similar to the Ring Wyndle refers to. A group of spren deciding whether she will receive a spren to bond with, and if she will - which one. It's been a while since I've read those particular chapters in full, but I seem to recall that Shallan hears only one voice asking her for a Truth. 

I think this is more likely too. Though it still doesn't explain the peculiarities. The Cryptics remind me of the Finn from Wheel of Time, honestly. They aren't interested in a person being honest in her life so much as they want to hoard secrets or something.

[Shardlet]

The cryptics are the loose end to my spren theory.  Because I don't think that they are in the cognitive realm.  They do not apparently manifest when Shallan goes to Shadesmar even though they were right there near her in the physical.  So, the jury is still out for me on the cryptics.

 

 

We know that honorspren are Splinters of Honor - this is by no means a guarantee that the other nine... I shall call them radiantspren... are of similar nature. 

What's slightly more likely is that she sees something similar to the Ring Wyndle refers to. A group of spren deciding whether she will receive a spren to bond with, and if she will - which one. It's been a while since I've read those particular chapters in full, but I seem to recall that Shallan hears only one voice asking her for a Truth. 

 

Well, they are splinters.  They are not just of Honor though.  They are splinters of Honor and Cultivation jointly.  I surmise that each type of bonding spren has a different composition of Honor and Cultivation.

 

As to the voice of the cryptic.  It is so far unclear whether a single cryptic is speaking each time or whether one time it is one cryptic while another time it is a different one.  (I suspect it is one, but it is unclear nevertheless).

[Meg]

Syl was around on Roshar for thousands of years, lost, unbound, stuck in the Physical Realm as a mere windspren, cut off her consciousness (which is in the Cognitive Realm), floating around, always (unconsciously) searching for someone to again bind with. (That sounds quite theatrically, bear with me. )

 

 

deddinty, on 22 Oct 2013 - 23:24, said:

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And

another question, do you think the spren will eventually regain all of their knowledge as they bond with their human? 

 

We only have information about Syl regarding this question:

 

Mike

Has

Kaladin's windspren Syl reached the epitome of her consciousness or will we see a smarter spren in future books?

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Syl has recovered everything of her personality. There are things she doesn't remember, and things she can still learn to do, but she has recovered her personality in full.

source

 

 

I see that the question was not exactly the one you, Deddinty, were throwing in, but the quote seems interesting anyways. So if the (bonded) spren recovered their personality, they still have wholes in their memories but they still can learn.

 

I think there are more spren like Syl that (which?) got “lost” in the Physical Realm when the KR gave up their “KR-y-ness”. I also think that the bit of consciousness left in Syl forced her to look for a new bond-partner. Or may be it's kind of an instinct.

 

Other than Syl there might be spren that never totally lost their connection to the Cognitive Realm. Like the truthspren (which BS lately called cryptics). Those spren seem to mostly stay (exist) in the Cognitive Realm and are able to “touch” the Physical Realm wittingly.  (edit: This is contrary to your post, Shardlet.)

 

And then there is Wyndle who was sent by 'the Ring'. He must have been (existed) totally in the Cognitive Realm, otherwise there wouldn't have been the need for a “transition”.

 

Also I'm not sure if every ever bonded spren is to be bound again. Perhaps Wyndle (for example) is one that is "new to this job".

 

 

Sorry for the messed posting, I've written it offline and even plain-text-pasting didn't heal all issues.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Meg

[b4dave]

As I think Wyndle is a cultivationspren, it could be that with his bonding, its his job to cultivate his bonded partner to become what she needs to be. Syl on the other hand was drawn to Kaladins honour, being an honorspren. I think she has a small part of cultivation in her, allowing her to cultivate his honor to make him what he needs to be.

[Argent]

We know all honorspren, and by extension Syl in particular, are Splinters of Honor. I've always taken this to mean that they are Splinters exclusively of Honor, not "mostly Honor."

[Satsuoni]

I think this quote:

. I was a gardener. A wonderful gardener! Cryptics and honorspen alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world. Now this. What have I become?

Is very interesting. In general, I support Meg's idea, above - about spren that were forcibly severed from their minds when KR gave up.

The quote seems to suggest that Wyndle: a. Coexisted with Cryptics and Honorspren in the same place - thought the time frame is not given, I assume he was like that before the bond, so up to, at most, 12 year before. Which suggests that the Honorspen with their minds intact are still there. b. Harvests minds of our world and uses them as fertilizer? Or just seeds them with crystals? I am not sure. Anyway, we don't know if Shadesmar is all of Cognitive realm (or there is another place with gardens), and that spren manifest in the same way (they might have been those floating flames) in both realms.

I also think that Shallan is bonded to one Cryptic, but that allows her to draw all of them due to similarity (all spren are essentially one):

That’s not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me.

Note the singular (though the spren can possibly all speak with the same voice) - though she addresses them in plural, only one, apparently, answers.

[EDIT] SOmething strange just happened with the site and my post disappeared after being marked as posted. Huh.

[blackmagic3]

I have always thought that some radiant spren where either all honor, or all cultivation or a mixture of both. In other words Syl could be entirely of honor but Wyndle could be entirely of cultivation.

Edit:Spelling

Edited October 23, 2013 by blackmagic3

[marianmi]

Interesting... There is Wyndle, a cultivationspren (I am sure he is 100% cultivation). Then we have a reference to honorspren, Syl being one of them.

I wonder how would a mixed spren would be created. Because right now I tend to think cryptics are Adonalasium spren.

I can't see why else Wyndle would only talk about honorspren and cryptics visiting his garden.

 

Also, there can be multiple types of honorspren - windspren honorspren being the spren of the Windrunners.

Make sense?

[Scott]

Cryptics being Adonalsiumspren would make sense.  The only confirmed honorspren we've seen is Syl, and she's attracted to Kaladin because of his actions.  I'm pretty sure Wyndle is a cultivationspren and he's assigned to a young girl so that "we can mold her" as he says.  That sounds pretty cultivation-y to me.  

 

The cryptics seem to be something else entirely, and yet don't seem to be related to Odium at all.  They seem very cold and logical, almost devoid of emotion.  Maybe that's the result of them being Adonalsiumspren and uncoloured by any specific Shardic intent.  

Edited October 24, 2013 by Scott

[Argent]

Sure, it makes sense. It's one of the those core arguments - or theories - that everyone has an opinion on, and since none of us can prove the others wrong, we all just stick to what we believe to be the case.

 

I am intrigued by your proposal that the Cryptics might be of Adonalsium, however. There do seem stranger than any other spren we've encountered...

[Oudeis]

 

Also, there can be multiple types of honorspren - windspren honorspren being the spren of the Windrunners.

Make sense?

 

Hrm... but keep in mind that Nohadon specifically said, it's too bad not all spren are as choosy in their nahel bond as honorspren. So it's possible there is more than one kind of honorspren, but unlikely that all ten (and i realize it's technically speculation to assume there are ten) of them are.

[Arook]

Cryptics being Adonalsiumspren would make sense.  

 

The cryptics seem to be something else entirely, and yet don't seem to be related to Odium at all.  They seem very cold and logical, almost devoid of emotion.  Maybe that's the result of them being Adonalsiumspren and uncoloured by any specific Shardic intent.  

 

Extremely unlikely that adonalsiumspren exist they would have to have been made before the adonalsium was broken. As such we should see their influence across all the shard worlds.

 

cryptics could be honor spren that keep secrets (that has honor).

 

Cryptics do seem to exist in the cognative realm almost completely. Why they are able to alter the physical realm is a mystery.   

 

Edit spelling

Edited November 20, 2013 by Arook

[WeiryWriter]

Extremely unlikely that adonalsiumspren exist they would have to have been made before the adonalsium was broken. As such we should see their influence across all the shard worlds.

 

Adonalsium-invested spren do exist, its WoB.  Spren are very much a Roshar thing so they wouldn't appear on the other shardworlds.

 

I am very skeptical though about adospren being involved in Surgebinding, it just feels wrong to me.