Theory: Devotion and Dominion are actually a "Spintered Shard"

[Yata]

 

And that's without getting into Shadows of Self spoilers, which could cast doubt onto whether you could even merge Dominion and Devotion.

Unfortunatly it took months before SoS reach where I am 

 

And I am sorry if my explanation is quite unclear, but when I traslate it to English, I find hard to use the most "linear and clear way to explain".

 

Anyway, my thoughts was about (in a more schematics way):

- D&D splintered by Oduim.

- After X time the Splinter begin to became sentience.

- I don't think they jump from "no mind" to "full sentience beins"

- There are a initial time with Instint-drive Splinter (from now called "bug Splinters XD) based widely on their Shard's Intent

- Some of the Bug Splinters of Devotion and Dominion became to merge, at the beginning I thought about the Unity's Religions. But the Dominion-Devotion complements based on the master-servant interpretation may be better.

- This Group of Bug Splinter continue to "evolve" but its oddly born made it chaotic.

- The Bug Splinters that doesn't merge continue their Evolution and became the Seaon and Skaze.

- Of course the Group is what we call Dor.

 

I am with you when you say that there isn't proofs and I don't want to present my theory lika a Fact of course :-)

[Caevita]

Now, I don't have the quote handy but... I seem to recall the Prince-guy, Raoden, talking about how the Dor was trying to "speak through him?"  I can't remember if that's how he phrased it, and I don't have the book (getting my hands on a copy to confirm this, though).  Something was certainly happening to him involving the Dor becoming attached to him personally.  

 

Only, the last time someone did that, it was Vin with Preservation.  Godhood ensued.

 

I didn't realize that the Dor was confirmed to be both powers, but if it is, I think it is extremely likely that they are going to be finding a new host soon.  And since the Dor is both, yeah.  I am pretty sure "Unity" is going to be a thing soon.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Caevita

[Yata]

Well I suppose that the things are more complex.

The Dor is "strange" also because it is in the "wrong place". Normally the Shard's Investiture is in the Spiritual Realm, but the Dor is in the Cognitive. In the Cognitive the Dor is "compressed" and I suppose that It will Destroy anyone how touch him above the average. I suppose that the Seligh people must before "take the Dor in the Spiritual Realm", only after someone may pick the power and Ascends.

[Yata]

I'm writing this double post because something hit my mind while I ansewered in another topic.

It's about the WoB about (not exact words) "all magic system on Sel are actually manifestation of the same magic system".

And this make me think. All the Shardworld with more than a single shard had multiple magic system (example: Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy from Ruin and Preservation on Scadrial) while Shardworld with a single Shard had only a magic System (Example: Awekening from Endowment on Nalthis).

Therefore if on Sel "there is only a Magic System" may be a proof about the "Dor as a Single Splintered Shard" (or Unity if you like the name more) ?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Yata

[Lilamal]

If now somebody “pick up the Dor” (and I don't know how it could be made), he ascends to became a “Double Class” Shard like Harmony.

No, it would not be a "Double Class" Shard, but it would be more like a Half-Shard(Adonalsium Shard type). Nobody can make a new Shardblade, but they can make something similar called a Half-Shard(Shard-shield type). I suspect that it would be something similar to that

[Yata]

No, it would not be a "Double Class" Shard, but it would be more like a Half-Shard(Adonalsium Shard type). Nobody can make a new Shardblade, but they can make something similar called a Half-Shard(Shard-shield type). I suspect that it would be something similar to that

To be honest I don't understand what you want to say :S

[natc]

While I, as usual, find Yata's word choice weird at times (gives off the "not native language" impression constantly, no big deal really) Lil here just isn't making any sense period to me either.

What do random fabrials and shardblades being impossible to construct (you technically can. Destroy evil much lately?) have anything to do with the concept of Ascension?

[VirtuousTraveller]

Therefore if on Sel "there is only a Magic System" may be a proof about the "Dor as a Single Splintered Shard" (or Unity if you like the name more) ?

 

I love this theory - the idea of a Unity shard just seems so clear from reading Elantris.  What isn't clear, however, is the timeline for me.  Here are some facts we know:

• We know Aona and Skai came to Sel together, and we know that they, separately, held the two shards of Devotion and Dominion.
• We know that hundreds of years prior to the events of Elantris, Odium/Rayse came to Sel and killed both Aona and Skai and "that which they held has been splintered" (according to The Letter in tWoK)

What doesn't quite add up is how these facts match up with the timeline of the major religions on Sel:

• The Jesker religion (Duladel), viewed as an ancient religion, worshiped the Dor as a great overspirit of the land, present in all things.
• Keshu (a man from Jindo) preached about "Unity," but then his two followers "splintered (my word)" this original idea into two competing religions with unity as a focus, but through two different means (Devotion - Shu-Korath; Dominion - Shu-Dereth).

So, what was it?  In ancient times, were there two divine forces (Devotion and Dominion) or one (Overspirit/the Dor/Unity)?  Did two separate shards with two different intents exist separately when Odium appeared to splinter them?  I don't think so.

 

I can imagine that the scenario of two shards working opposed to one another (like Preservation and Ruin) would have a natural opposite - two shards working directly, in full communion, with and as a part of one another (one god in two parts).  I think that Aona and Skai, originally through their intense/romantic commitment to one another, somehow combined their powers into one overarching force (i.e. Unity; the Dor), but then when killed/splintered by Odium, the original intents of their shards resurfaced in odd ways (the Seons and Skaze, for example).

 

(Random aside, I don't understand what makes the Skaze evil - it doesn't seem to me from what we know that Skai was a bad person; perhaps the idea of dominion over others, without a moral compass, is what makes them bad.  They confuse me greatly, especially as Hoid refers to them as a "synthetic" race in the postscript of the 10th anniversary edition of Elantris).

 

So here's the timeline I propose:

• Adonalsium is splintered into 16 shards (including Devotion and Dominion, separately)
• Aona and Skai, as romantic lovers, take these two shards and become Vessels.
• Aona and Skai travel to Sel and through their love, combine the shards into one super shard (or two shards working in perfect unity), creating the Dor, which exists in all things by nature.
• Because their (Aona and Skai) idea of Unity not being the true Spiritual Realm power of their original shards, the Dor as a power exists in the Cognitive Realm (where two divinities create a reality through the ideal of "unity"), which is a mess once the two minds that held it together are killed by Odium/Rayse.
• Odium/Rayse appears and splinters "that which they held," (the word "that" being singular perhaps?), causing the Dor, originally fueled by the Unity of two shards, to lose itself into not only the original intents of Devotion and Dominion, but splinters of its original unity.

Anyone in a relationship realize that the relationship itself, separate from the two people in it, exists as its own separate entity.  Not two people as they literally are in the real, physical world, but how they envision themselves at their best, where shared dreams, goals, and desires exist.  Where does such a thing exist?  In the cosmere, the Cognitive Realm seems like the right place for this kind of magic to happen =)

 

Does this line up with what you're thinking Yata? =) It's amazing how stories like these can bring people together, no matter where we live around the world!

Edited May 24, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Yata]

The problem with the Selish Religions's Story is that we don't know if is hystory or mithology.

The Aona and Skai murder happened probably thousands of years before Elantris not only hundreds (or Elantris was really early in the Cosmere Timeline) because Odium killed them before being trapped in Great Roshar and five thousands of years before WoTK Odium was already trapped there.

 

I think the Dor came just after the D&D's Splintering... Nevermind if D&D was enemy or friends... we saw that Shards' Investiture may work together pretty well with some control. They have no need to push their power in the Cognitive (and probably they would fel this kind of change quite like a limitation).

 

Returning to the main point. Probably popolations on Sel "discovered the Dor" and some phylosopher/magic user/worldhopper/scholar (Keshu) explored its nature and with this knowledge he began his religion.

Other peoples (related to him or not) may want to stop his knowledge pushing to D&D again... this may be caused by Odium's Agent left on Sel, people who simply saw in "Unity" a murdered of the morals, and other possible causes.

 

Anyway I have to thank you for your kind words... I will think again at the whole theory with the new Informations we obtained in the meantime (I wrote this quite 10 months ago)

[VirtuousTraveller]

The Aona and Skai murder happened probably thousands of years before Elantris not only hundreds (or Elantris was really early in the Cosmere Timeline) because Odium killed them before being trapped in Great Roshar and five thousands of years before WoTK Odium was already trapped there.

 

I hadn't considered their murder and splitting being so ancient.  It's insane to think that thousands of years may have occurred since then on Sel, as that makes any of this irrelevant on the beginnings of the religions of Shu-Keseg hundreds of years in the past.

 

I think the Dor came just after the D&D's Splintering... Nevermind if D&D was enemy or friends... we saw that Shards' Investiture may work together pretty well with some control. They have no need to push their power in the Cognitive (and probably they would fel this kind of change quite like a limitation).

 

I'm still pretty convinced the Dor was the result of the intentional fusion of Aona's and Skai's power, and has existed since the beginning of time on Elantris.  The most ancient religion we know, Jesker, views the Dor as existing in all things, as an overseer of all things.  It's not that everyone on Sel has a little Devotion or a little Dominion in them, but rather they all have the Dor in them left over from the joint creation of the Unity shard-power (like Preservation pouring himself into all living things in the creation process on Scadrial).

 

Probably popolations on Sel "discovered the Dor" and some phylosopher/magic user/worldhopper/scholar (Keshu) explored its nature and with this knowledge he began his religion.

 

I never considered Keshu to be a worldhopper...this would make a lot of sense, especially if knowledge of the original power of creation (the Dor) had been destroyed thousands of years before his time.  Perhaps this religion/history would make more sense if we knew what sort of information was recorded in the Do-Keseg!

 

 

Other peoples (related to him or not) may want to stop his knowledge pushing to D&D again... this may be caused by Odium's Agent left on Sel, people who simply saw in "Unity" a murdered of the morals, and other possible causes.

 

Odium's agent(s) on Sel...you mean the svrakiss? =) Perhaps these are related to the Skaze somehow, which Brandon described as "evil seons."  Evil matches up with the idea of svrakiss and Odium, but these creatures still confuse me greatly!

[Yata]

They may be the infamous Svrakiss or really some people don't relate to Odium who don't want the Unity of Sel (for more mundane reasons).

 

Anyway I think you take as a fact a thing without proofs. We don't know if the Selish people (not magic user...the average people) have some Innate Investiture from D&D (neither the Dor), the Selish human may predate the Shattering and not being created by D&D.

 

The problem with your idea of the Dor predate D&D's death is about its position in the Cognitive. I may accept that D&D putted some power together and use it to "make shardic things"... But this "power" can't be the Dor for his position.

The only example we have for massive Shardic power outside the Spiritual, is about the Splintered Shards. And if I don't remember wrong is stated that worldhopp to Sel is extremely dangerous for the Investiture in Sel's Cognitive Realm left from D&D's murder

[VirtuousTraveller]

Anyway I think you take as a fact a thing without proofs. We don't know if the Selish people (not magic user...the average people) have some Innate Investiture from D&D (neither the Dor), the Selish human may predate the Shattering and not being created by D&D.

 

The problem with your idea of the Dor predate D&D's death is about its position in the Cognitive. I may accept that D&D putted some power together and use it to "make shardic things"... But this "power" can't be the Dor for his position.

 

The only example we have for massive Shardic power outside the Spiritual, is about the Splintered Shards. And if I don't remember wrong is stated that worldhopp to Sel is extremely dangerous for the Investiture in Sel's Cognitive Realm left from D&D's murder

 

All of this will be a theory until we get facts to prove otherwise :-P I'm basing the idea of Innate Investiture existing in all people on Galledon's explanation of Jesker, that the Dor exists in everything.  Since Jesker is an ancient religion, I'm thinking its mythos reaches all the way back to the beginning of life on Sel.  Check out my new theory on this over here!

[Yata]

All of this will be a theory until we get facts to prove otherwise :-P I'm basing the idea of Innate Investiture existing in all people on Galledon's explanation of Jesker, that the Dor exists in everything.  Since Jesker is an ancient religion, I'm thinking its mythos reaches all the way back to the beginning of life on Sel.  Check out my new theory on this over here!

Yeah I understood your point.

But if Galladon's words are true (It may be simple doctrine without solid bases) may talk about the Dor that fills the Cognitive Realm and the Cognitive Realm is quite "everywhere".

[The One Who Connects]

I know that there are rules about bringing back older topics, but at the moment, getting smited for making a new topic with the same base idea sounds less appealing.

Firstly, a few points.

Quote

Jaddeth is the name of the Derethi God. He is said to slumber in the earth, waiting for a time when the whole world worships him to return and rule the world.  Source

Quote

Skaze: The Skaze were "evil Seons" and were related to Skai. They had a large amount of influence in the politics of Fjordell and strongly influenced the Dakhor.  Source

 

Secondly, the connections that can be made:
1. Skaze -> Skai = Dominion
2. Skaze -> Shu-Dereth -> Jaddeth
3. Jaddeth -> Worship = Dominion?

Jaddeth will return when the whole world worships him.
This feels either (a) too easy to be right, or (b) blatant enough to get overlooked.

 

While I like the earlier idea of the Elantris Aon taking up the Dor, it is quite possible that Fjordell may have a plan of their own.

Edited August 21, 2016 by The One Who Connects
Links

[Djarskublar]

Thanks for necroing, I didn't know about this thread before. I like your point about ruling the world. I would rephrase it slightly, as there may have been corruption of the phrase by the priests. I would say "when he has Dominion over the whole world." it sounds better that way

And on the subject of extremely large Aons... Death star?

Semi-serious joke aside, I like the idea of a large Aon collecting the Dor into a state where it could be called a Shard again. Although another thing to consider is that if the Dor is sentient, then you could have the power struggle of the ages trying to Ascend.

On the subject of the Dor grooming Raoden for Ascension, one point of evidence is that he is a king with Dominion over many, but he is also Devoted to serving their interest. A solid mix for taking up Unity.

[Yata]

In my idea probably some specific Shard may unsplinter them with a lot of time and the right Intent. Of course this is the case IF the Investiture is in the rightful place (Spiritual Realm) while the Dor is compressed in the Cognitive Realm and maybe has no chance naturally of be still and develop a higher mind.

Of example the way to create a Seon/Skaze may be to separate a specific Splinter to the ravaging Dor and leave it the time to slowly develop a Mind (to be there is more, but this may be the core part of Seon's creation)

PS: This theory for the one who read it today, it's quite old...without some relevant information discovered in the last year, I have to upgrade this theory. At the moment I am busy with another Cosmere mistery 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Yata

[Jondesu]

 

9 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

On the subject of the Dor grooming Raoden for Ascension, one point of evidence is that he is a king with Dominion over many, but he is also Devoted to serving their interest. A solid mix for taking up Unity.

Definitely, Raoden would be in a very interesting position to try to reassemble the Shard(s?).  My headcanon has been that Honor will be reassembled eventually (and I know many here share that opinion), but if Brandon were to unsplinter any Shards, I think reassembling Devotion and Dominion (as Unity) would be a more powerful story, and Raoden being the one could be amazing.  I think if Sarene didn't become an Elantrian herself and died of old age or something else, Raoden would be willing to give up his mortal life and risk traveling into the Cognitive to somehow direct the Dor back to the Spiritual Realm (assuming it does truly belong there and doesn't instead just need to be controlled somehow).  That could be an amazing scene to visualize, though I'm not sure exactly what it would look like.  Raoden in the middle of a storm of Dor, threatening to rip him apart, yet gathering and directing it through a rift he opened between the Realms… I'm getting chills imagining it myself.

jW

[Djarskublar]

55 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

 

Definitely, Raoden would be in a very interesting position to try to reassemble the Shard(s?).  My headcanon has been that Honor will be reassembled eventually (and I know many here share that opinion), but if Brandon were to unsplinter any Shards, I think reassembling Devotion and Dominion (as Unity) would be a more powerful story, and Raoden being the one could be amazing.  I think if Sarene didn't become an Elantrian herself and died of old age or something else, Raoden would be willing to give up his mortal life and risk traveling into the Cognitive to somehow direct the Dor back to the Spiritual Realm (assuming it does truly belong there and doesn't instead just need to be controlled somehow).  That could be an amazing scene to visualize, though I'm not sure exactly what it would look like.  Raoden in the middle of a storm of Dor, threatening to rip him apart, yet gathering and directing it through a rift he opened between the Realms… I'm getting chills imagining it myself.

jW

Well, he is an Elantrian, and if she doesn't become one, he will far outlive her... He could totally do this after she dies of old age.

[Yata]

15 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Well, he is an Elantrian, and if she doesn't become one, he will far outlive her... He could totally do this after she dies of old age.

This last part may be really untrue. I explain myself better:

An Elantrian have an infinite lifespan and in this you have right. But Brandon said that be an Elantrian is a stressful life and after a while it's too much for an Elantrian. When this happen he simply left himself die (as Galladon's Father). Unless Sarene died young, they will have at least 30-40 years together.... Maybe Raoden may reach his limit before of her.

PS: About this stressful way, I imagine it's caused by the constanct stream of Dor in their body and some form of Savantism who made the stream powerfull with the time.

[Djarskublar]

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

This last part may be really untrue. I explain myself better:

An Elantrian have an infinite lifespan and in this you have right. But Brandon said that be an Elantrian is a stressful life and after a while it's too much for an Elantrian. When this happen he simply left himself die (as Galladon's Father). Unless Sarene died young, they will have at least 30-40 years together.... Maybe Raoden may reach his limit before of her.

PS: About this stressful way, I imagine it's caused by the constanct stream of Dor in their body and some form of Savantism who made the stream powerfull with the time.

Okay fair enough. I would bet that he would last as long as her at least though. He did survive his ordeal as a fallen Elantrian after all... well mostly. He could wait till she died and then immediately go try it. If he dies, he doesn't have her any more anyway. If he manages to ascend, then fantastic!

[Yata]

Yes man, I didn't mean you was wrong. But only that he wasn't sure he may outlive her 

[Djarskublar]

Okay yeah. Agreed. Is this thread done now? Or is it going to move back on topic now that I'm done derailing it?

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Okay yeah. Agreed. Is this thread done now? Or is it going to move back on topic now that I'm done derailing it?

I wouldn't say that it's done, but there is/was a decent wait until Elantris 2 and 3. Which Brandon may or may not have changed for this year's State of the Sanderson.

Also @Yata, I like the Dor Influx = Savant concept. I never thought of it that way
Perhaps that would make him a bit more Dor Resistant... Oh sorry, now I'm derailing

[Jondesu]

Alright, so I avoid resurrecting threads of course, but since this is one of Yata's espoused theories and there is new information pertinent to it, I think it's appropriate. I stumbled across this WoB from a few months ago:

Quote

QUESTION

So I got a bit of a Shard-related question. So, the entity that Harmony is, all the other Shards that we’ve had named so far, are any of them combinations, or are they all--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, good question. The only one I would count as a combination is the Dor, right? But it isn’t even a full Shard. So everything else--single holder only when we talk about it okay? That’s an excellent question. Or they’ve been Splintered completely.

This would seem to indicate that the Dor is indeed mixed to the point of being truly combined, but of course those Shards aren't whole. I think it lends a lot of credence to this theory!

Edit: it's the very last WoB on this page: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='harmony'

Edited March 21, 2017 by Jondesu

[Thanatos]

Good theory.

My opinion on Skaze is that their like Voidspren in that their contaminated by Odium.

pretty sure theres a WoB saying the Seons and Skaze were not around until after the shattering and Skaze are more malevolent than Seons

Edited March 21, 2017 by Thanatos