How smart is Odium?

[Landis963]

I've been rereading the two available books of the Stormlight Archive (WoK and WoR, for posterity), and I get the feeling that Odium is definitely a more competent opponent than Ruin.  However, he got caught in the Desolation trap, which makes me wonder how competent he could actually be?  I don't believe for a second that he'd fall for the champion thing, not at face value anyway, but if it was used as misdirection?  If Kaladin was meant to pull things that Odium would write off as distraction?  How would, in your minds, Dalinar and co. defeat Odium?  

Edited September 17, 2015 by Landis963

[StormyAngel]

I think Odium must be much more of a planner than Ruin. I have a sneaking suspicion that he's one of those shards who can see the future pretty well, although i think Cultivation would have him beat. Truth be told, to be smart enough to splinter two shards on their homeground (Dominion and Devotion) without any significant loss to his own power is pretty telling.

 

As for why he fell for the desolations thing, I assume you mean whatever deal it is he made with Honor that bound him to the Rosharan system? I think that was a case of Honor making him an offer that was too good to refuse. The deal was loaded in his favor, what with it being based on a bunch of volunteers that he got to torture until they broke, then follow them back to invade and destroy lots of stuff. Odium probably figured it would all fall apart in his favor at some point, which is why he accepted. All he had to do is sit back and wait and destroy.

 

The "champion" concept will probably work the same way. They're going to have to offer him a ridiculously good deal (hey odium, if you win we'll all just lay down and die right now), and he'll undoubtedly feel pretty confident about however it's set up. They'll have to stack the deck against themselves. On top of that, Honor mentions that before he would even consider it they would have to convince Odium that he might lose. They'll have to make that possibility convincing enough. It can't be a "wait, before you destroy us...one on one duel?" It has to be a "We're going to beat you. 75% odds in our favor. Hows about we make a deal".

 

In the end, I honestly think the fact that Honor and Cultivation ended up on the planet facing Odium is no coincidence. Powerful intents for difficult times. Cultivation's continuing influence makes me think she's at the very least outwitted Odium to some degree, either by hiding or by convincing him that she's harmless.

[Shadowspren]

I think Odium must be much more of a planner than Ruin. I have a sneaking suspicion that he's one of those shards who can see the future pretty well, although i think Cultivation would have him beat. Truth be told, to be smart enough to splinter two shards on their homeground (Dominion and Devotion) without any significant loss to his own power is pretty telling.

 

As for why he fell for the desolations thing, I assume you mean whatever deal it is he made with Honor that bound him to the Rosharan system? I think that was a case of Honor making him an offer that was too good to refuse. The deal was loaded in his favor, what with it being based on a bunch of volunteers that he got to torture until they broke, then follow them back to invade and destroy lots of stuff. Odium probably figured it would all fall apart in his favor at some point, which is why he accepted. All he had to do is sit back and wait and destroy.

 

The "champion" concept will probably work the same way. They're going to have to offer him a ridiculously good deal (hey odium, if you win we'll all just lay down and die right now), and he'll undoubtedly feel pretty confident about however it's set up. They'll have to stack the deck against themselves. On top of that, Honor mentions that before he would even consider it they would have to convince Odium that he might lose. They'll have to make that possibility convincing enough. It can't be a "wait, before you destroy us...one on one duel?" It has to be a "We're going to beat you. 75% odds in our favor. Hows about we make a deal".

 

In the end, I honestly think the fact that Honor and Cultivation ended up on the planet facing Odium is no coincidence. Powerful intents for difficult times. Cultivation's continuing influence makes me think she's at the very least outwitted Odium to some degree, either by hiding or by convincing him that she's harmless.

To me, that in itself shows that Odium is smarter than Ruin. Ruin made the deal with Preservation, but he couldn't seem to fathom why Preservation would make the deal. He thought that everything was in his favor, and he seemed completely surprised when it turned out to be the other way around. I like the idea of Odium being able to see further ahead, but I do agree that Cultivation would hold the upper hand in that regard. 

 

But apparently, Ati was a pretty stand up guy before he became Ruin, and I'm thinking kinda along the lines of because he was a good guy, he didn't have as much experience at being bad. Whereas, Odium is bad to the bone, and seems to have always been so. He is afraid of Harmony possessing two Shards, either because of the power of two shards and/or the fact that Harmony is picking things up pretty quick and once he understands exactly what is going on in the Cosmere he will present a formidable opponent.

 

But unlike Ruin, Odium has had experience dealing with other Shardholders of various power levels, if he knows of Harmony, then he probably knows that Preservation betrayed the pact that Preservation and Ruin made all those years ago, and as such is wary of that happening to him. He understands that Cultivation is probably better at seeing the future and won't get sucked into a challenge unless he guages just how much of a plan his opponents have. To him, he knows an opponent will try and trick him and beat him if they can, and he knows that he isn't invincible... only very very hard to beat. And his acknowledgement of this makes him even harder to beat, I think.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Shadowspren

[natc]

Hoid seems to have personal beef with Rayse, so while to garner such a reputation to two people probably meant he wasn't the greatest of men (plus he likes being pure Odium without other influences), we should probably take everything Hoid says about his badness with a pinch of salt

[Landis963]

Even disregarding Hoid's "personal beef with Rayse," the fact remains that unless Odium was framed for the murder of Aona, Skai, and Tanavast, (a laughable claim w/r/t Tanavast due to testimony directly from the horse's mouth), he's killed 3 shards personally, without suffering apparent injury.  That makes him a fearsome enemy to have.  

 

However, if Aona and Skai had faced him together, it may have been difficult but it probably would have been in their favor (given Odium's fear of Harmony, by WoB, who contains the most contradictory pair of shards we have ever seen).  Hence, there was some schism between the two that either Odium engendered or that he capitalized on.  We don't know the details of Honor's death, but it stands to reason that Odium couldn't pull the same trick with Honor and Cultivation as he did on Sel, whose intents are far more synergistic than Devotion's and Dominion's appear to be.  Which probably means he pulled a "Go look at the distraction!" on Honor.  (obv. far more involved than that, but I'd be willing to bet that it boils down to that)

[kaellok]

 

As for why he fell for the desolations thing, I assume you mean whatever deal it is he made with Honor that bound him to the Rosharan system? I think that was a case of Honor making him an offer that was too good to refuse. The deal was loaded in his favor, what with it being based on a bunch of volunteers that he got to torture until they broke, then follow them back to invade and destroy lots of stuff. Odium probably figured it would all fall apart in his favor at some point, which is why he accepted. All he had to do is sit back and wait and destroy.

 

The "champion" concept will probably work the same way. They're going to have to offer him a ridiculously good deal (hey odium, if you win we'll all just lay down and die right now), and he'll undoubtedly feel pretty confident about however it's set up. They'll have to stack the deck against themselves. On top of that, Honor mentions that before he would even consider it they would have to convince Odium that he might lose. They'll have to make that possibility convincing enough. It can't be a "wait, before you destroy us...one on one duel?" It has to be a "We're going to beat you. 75% odds in our favor. Hows about we make a deal".

The Oathpact is (originally) between only Honor and the Heralds (per WoB.  The "originally" is because that's the way the question was phrased.)  I don't think that there is or was ever any kind of 'deal' offered or made between Odium and Honor.

 

As to OP, how would I go about defeating Odium?  Let's put all of the players on the field of battle, including Nale (aka Darkness.)  Let's say you know the rules of Champions, the Cosmere, and all of that.  I see a three-fold plan.

 

1.  A robust defense/strategy/fight against the main thrust of attacks.  Your "conventional" warfare, or whatnot.  Humans vs. Voidbringers, that sort of thing.  You have to put up a good enough fight that victory for Odium is not a sure thing.

 

2.  Knowing that Champions are a thing, you'll want control of who the Shard is likely to pick as a Champion.  So you make the perfect candidate; you make a Truthless; you make Szeth.

 

3.  Simultaneously work on a fail-safe mechanism to destroy Odium's Champion.  Perhaps a weapon that will consume the Investiture Odium sends their way?  So, rather than being able to use the power to fight off the inhabitants of Roshar, the power is eaten by Nightblood instead, and so Szeth becomes (relatively) easy to fight in comparison.

[DreamEternal]

The Champion: everyone assumes a champion means a duel, but I believe in pratice it means just a chief agent of Odium that is unwillingly or unwittingly central to his plans, and in order to be useful gets some powergul knowledge or abity that could be used against Odium if it goes wrong. Convincing Idium he can lose could very well be using a very good bluff: putting everything in the line and making he think you know something he doens't.

And what exactly did the Almighty tell Dalinar to do? Something that Nale thinks is a stupid idea? Recreating something the very people who were part of it destroyed?

For some reason, refounding the Radiants will put humanity at risk. But if they learn this and refuse to break their oaths like in the past, because it is the right thing to do, them Odium will think they did it because they know something he doens't. And he will go all in and name a champion.

[StormyAngel]

The Oathpact is (originally) between only Honor and the Heralds (per WoB.  The "originally" is because that's the way the question was phrased.)  I don't think that there is or was ever any kind of 'deal' offered or made between Odium and Honor.

 

I'm woefully ignorant of may of the WoB's out there, so I thank you for bringing this forward. However, I avoided calling that deal I described the Oathpact specifically because I believe that Honor must have made some kind of deal with Odium to get him to play along. It was either in conjunction with the Oathpact, or entirely independent of it. My suspicion is that when the heralds broke the Oathpact, Honor could no longer meet his end of the deal, and had to allow Odium to kill him.

 

This is all pure speculation on my part though though, since as you say there is no mention of any such deal. The one thing that hints at it (to me) is in the letter in Book 2 that talks about how Odium is restricted to the system "whether it was Tanavast's design or not".

[Patrick Star]

I've been advocating this plan for a while.

 

How would I beat Odium?

 

Easy, use Nightblood to eat him.

 

That may cause some extra problems, but it has to be better than Odium... right?

[Landis963]

I've been advocating this plan for a while.

 

How would I beat Odium?

 

Easy, use Nightblood to eat him.

 

That may cause some extra problems, but it has to be better than Odium... right?

 

How would you get Odium into the same room as Nightblood, exactly?  How would you get Odium into a singular room in the Physical Realm to begin with?  

[Patrick Star]

How would you get Odium into the same room as Nightblood, exactly? How would you get Odium into a singular room in the Physical Realm to begin with?

Kaladin would fly to braize. Or a stoneward would build a rocket ship. Or both.

[DreamEternal]

Kaladin would fly to braize. Or a stoneward would build a rocket ship. Or both.

A rocket ship... how in Braize would a stoneward know how to build one of these?

[Landis963]

Kaladin would fly to braize. Or a stoneward would build a rocket ship. Or both.

 

 

A rocket ship... how in Braize would a stoneward know how to build one of these?

 

There's that problem, and also the problem posed by "singular room in the Physical Realm."  The only lip service that Preservation ever gave to the Physical Realm (at least by the era of the Final Empire) was the presence of the mists, and that was all he needed to Snap people and keep an eye on things.  (Not to mention, of course, that Odium is already present on Roshar, via his hatespren and the Everstorm)

[kaellok]

I'm woefully ignorant of may of the WoB's out there, so I thank you for bringing this forward. However, I avoided calling that deal I described the Oathpact specifically because I believe that Honor must have made some kind of deal with Odium to get him to play along. It was either in conjunction with the Oathpact, or entirely independent of it. My suspicion is that when the heralds broke the Oathpact, Honor could no longer meet his end of the deal, and had to allow Odium to kill him.

 

This is all pure speculation on my part though though, since as you say there is no mention of any such deal. The one thing that hints at it (to me) is in the letter in Book 2 that talks about how Odium is restricted to the system "whether it was Tanavast's design or not".

There's a whole lot of WoB out there, so it's incredibly easy to miss them, not be aware of them, etc.

 

I don't see Odium willingly entering into any kind of agreement or deal.  I think of it more as an agreement by a bunch of people that may have other interests that it's still in all of their interests to contain/bind Odium somehow.  Similar things happen all the time (price-fixing from corporations still totally being a thing even tho illegal being just one example.  The customer isn't involved in any way, shape or form with the agreement, they're just the ones affected by it.)

[Patrick Star]

A rocket ship... how in Braize would a stoneward know how to build one of these?

 

Well, take a Stoneward.  If their powers work like I think they do, they'll have the ability to build it.  The only problem is them finding out that they can, and a worldhopper could fix it.

 

Not saying it'll happen, just that it sort of could.  Which would be awesome.

[StormyAngel]

A rocket ship... how in Braize would a stoneward know how to build one of these?

 

The lightweaver scientists will design it of course. The windrunners man it, and the bondsmiths make everyone work together during the construction. The truthwatchers plan the course and time of the launch. Then the other orders of the knights radiant all sit on their hands because I don't know enough about them yet to include them on this whimsical course.

 

Oh and @kaellok. I can see where you're coming from, and I think the odds are probably in your favor on this one. My speculations are just the thing I find most likely. We'll have to wait and see for more information.

[ParadoxicalZen]

There's that problem, and also the problem posed by "singular room in the Physical Realm."  The only lip service that Preservation ever gave to the Physical Realm (at least by the era of the Final Empire) was the presence of the mists, and that was all he needed to Snap people and keep an eye on things.  (Not to mention, of course, that Odium is already present on Roshar, via his hatespren and the Everstorm)

 

I now want to see Nightblood unsheathed in the Everstorm.

[natc]

HoA Spoilers:

On the one room thing, Preservation's Mist sure managed to zero in on their newly chosen holder rather quickly just because they had the ability to absorb the Mist. We're talking about Empire-wide radius here.

Edited September 19, 2015 by WeiryWriter
this is not the mistborn forum

[Landis963]

I now want to see Nightblood unsheathed in the Everstorm.

 

... I really want to see that too.  

 

HoA Spoilers:

On the one room thing, Preservation's Mist sure managed to zero in on their newly chosen holder rather quickly just because they had the ability to absorb the Mist. We're talking about Empire-wide radius here.

 

But that was a deliberate choice on Preservation's part.  Which in turn suggests that one needs the right bait (and the right predictors of how Odium will react).  

Edited September 19, 2015 by WeiryWriter
this is not the mistborn forum

[natc]

HoA Spoilers:

Preservation had been dead several chapters prior to the second-to-last Ascension.

Edited September 19, 2015 by WeiryWriter
this is not the mistborn forum

[Landis963]

HoA spoilers:

Preservation had been dead several chapters prior to the second-to-last Ascension.

 

HoA Spoilers:

Oh, right.  I'd forgotten about Leras' body a few chapters before then.  But then isn't it more of a cohesion thing?  Vin tapped into the mists, and drew on enough of them that she basically ascended right there on the spot (although not before making a mushroom cloud out of Kredik Shaw), and as she drew on the mists, they pulled on the rest of the mists with them, with the effect of "mists rushing toward Luthadel."  No conscious control.  

Edited September 19, 2015 by WeiryWriter
this is not the mistborn forum

[Ari]

HoA Spoiler:

Landis is correct, Vin was attuned to Preservation already as she had been a Sliver of Preservation previously, and had even burned the mists once before then. The attunement is why all the mists were attracted to her- she was ready to take Preservation's place as soon as she lost her earring and started burning them.

 

On the original topic, I'm very firmly in the "Odium is smarter than Ruin" camp. I think much of this has to do with his intent as well- Ruin is a rather simple process, focused on the present, and saw every action as entropic, but didn't have much foresight for preservation's real plans.

 

I agree it's likely that Odium is trapped as part of a deal that he saw as an opening to kill Honour. (I imagine Honour offered the deal knowing he would die as it was the best chance to contain or kill Odium, and probably thought of his own sacrifice as a necessary step after watching what Odium did to Aona and Skai) I expect that deal necessitated the Oathpact between Honour and the Heralds, and is why Odium gets to torture the Heralds, and is what has Odium trapped on Braize, and is why Odium has invested his power so heavily in Roshar- the deal was probably that Odium accepts magical constraints on him that won't go away until he "wins" his desolations, and Honour does something that opens himself up to splintering.

Edited September 19, 2015 by WeiryWriter
this is not the mistborn forum

[WeiryWriter]

Okay friendly reminder to tag your spoilers.  This is the Stormlight forum, Mistborn spoilers should be tagged.

[Landis963]

Okay friendly reminder to tag your spoilers.  This is the Stormlight forum, Mistborn spoilers should be tagged.

 

Apologies.  

[Ari]

Likewise, apologies! Too used to the Cosmere Theories forum.