A bit of character analysis from the flipside of the fandom...

[Natans he/him]

Oh, my apologies, Natans. Here, I was thinking that the Cosmere fandom was still the best fandom. The tumblr side of the fandom has been handling shipping disagreements with kindness, poise, and maturity for almost a year now. Didn't realize the Sharders don't think they can keep up.

 

Just kidding Madam, but best safe than sorry when playing with fire . And like Sadeas is allways good to have someone to blame from the big mistakes(that's you, sorry =P).

 

That said, I new here and everything thata say, for sure, is just my impressions but the sharders are a nice enough folk  =)

 

Well... can you think of Kaladin not having Syl by his side? Oh, dear... Can you think of her not giving any comments on the matter? Hmph...

 

Well... I don't mind much any shipping with Kaladin. It's just not all of them are funny. And  Tarah-Kaladin doesn't sound like fun.

 

 o.O Now a can !!! LOL

And How heartless of your part, the "Underdog turn Big Gun and romance a previously forbbiden person" is always fun

[Ete'ni]

Natans

Funny and nice girl doesn't give you a lecture on what will burn you out. A funny and nice girl will use a frying pan to cure your head or tease you until you're capable of laughing at yourself again.

 

So, and yeah, I'm a heartless one. Blame everything on Wayne pls

[FeatherWriter she/her]

@Natans: If you abandon me to die on a plateau, I am going to steal all of your attractive Bridgemen and come back to make you miserable. And I'm not as nice as Dalinar, so you're not getting a shardblade out it, either!

[Ete'ni]

Though no girlfriend for Sadeas, FeatherWriter, you agree?

[Natans he/him]

Natans

Funny and nice girl doesn't give you a lecture on what will burn you out. A funny and nice girl will use a frying pan to cure your head or tease you until you're capable of laughing at yourself again.

 

So, and yeah, I'm a heartless one. Blame everything on Wayne pls

 

@Natans: If you abandon me to die on a plateau, I am going to steal all of your attractive Bridgemen and come back to make you miserable. And I'm not as nice as Dalinar, so you're not getting a shardblade out it, either!

 

 Outnumbered and outgunned. I give up =)

 

 

Nay. Just joking.

 

We don't know what happened Dear Aetae, don't be too haste to julge, maybe some frying pan was involved =)

 

And miss FeatherWriter, I let you keep the "attractive Bridgemen" they have no use to me, because I don't like tanned muscular men O.o

 

So let be said that I'm a merceful person =)

 

(I must learn keep my tongue in the mount =) )

[Ete'ni]

Well... I don't mind if you throw at me some quotes on the topic. In the other thread I got a lot of them.

 

And Does it mean we can take all attractive bridgemen? I find tanned bridgemen attactive as well, is it ok to take them too?

[Fistsofrage]

Taking Kaladin's brotherly love for Tien and changing it to suit this view seems very wrong. Kaladin is all about protecting those who resemble Tien. We've been in Kaladin's mind for most of WoK and seen nothing other than the desire to help those people who cannot help themselves. And Kaladin has had several female interests, so I don't really see anything sparking any kind of love for Renarin at all. Especially since Renarin is a lighteyes.

There might be an unrequited love from Renarin's side, but I do not see Kaladin reciprocating it.

Even the idea of Renarin liking guys is iffy since it seems to be mostly based on his weakness. Being thoughtful and intelligent doesn't really convince one of that at all, and Renarin's desire to fight and help his family shows that the only thing that seems to hinder him from doing so is his weakness.

Tbh, I would not really enjoy dedicating myself to a 10 book series only to find out this kind of sexual information later on. If Renarin is into guys I'd like to find out asap so I can make peace and decide how I feel about it.

And Kaladin being into guys could really change everything. Since we don't know much about Renarin, it'd be ok for him, but we've been emotionally invested in Kaladin's journey and progress, and to not mention something important like that when a lot of people's enjoyment of the story is hinged on this character could be seen as a bit of a deception/betrayal and people might lose interest in the story and decide its not worth their time anymore.

[Natans he/him]

Well... I don't mind if you throw at me some quotes on the topic. In the other thread I got a lot of them.

 

And Does it mean we can take all attractive bridgemen? I find tanned bridgemen attactive as well, is it ok to take them too?

 

There is only two quotes the good one is this:

 

"What would have happened to him, if Tarah hadn't coaxed him out of his single-minded dedication? Would he have burned himself out, as she'd claimed"

 

Sure Miss Aetea, I think that Miss FeatherWriter, could share with you, there is about 30 (blahhh) "attractive bridgemen", more than enough to two people.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Natans

[Gloom he/him]

Taking Kaladin's brotherly love for Tien and changing it to suit this view seems very wrong. Kaladin is all about protecting those who resemble Tien. We've been in Kaladin's mind for most of WoK and seen nothing other than the desire to help those people who cannot help themselves. And Kaladin has had several female interests, so I don't really see anything sparking any kind of love for Renarin at all. Especially since Renarin is a lighteyes.

 

I see Kaladin as an asexual hetero. I believe he finds women attractive, but he obviously doesn't spend much time dwelling on the subject. Then again, he hasn't really been around very many women that we've seen. Still, I don't believe Kaladin is driven to seek physical comfort, and he already has an emotional outlet in Syl. On the other hand, we can be pretty sure that Kaladin has no romantic interest in men. He has been surrounded by men constantly, we have seen how he views them from his own perspective. Any relationship Kaladin has with another man will be strictly platonic. Not deeply emotional, not flirtatious, and certainly not physically intimate. He doesn't seem to care what personal preferences other have towards the matter, but I see his ambivalence more as a matter of disinterest. He could develop a friendship with Renarin, but it would never be anything more than that.

 

I don't really have a good handle on Renarin, but I don't think he is attracted to other men. Even if he was attracted to other men, I don't believe that he would ever acknowledge that attraction due to his social position, his responsibilities, his fathers ideals, and his own hunger to become what his physical infirmities have thus far denied him.

 

So while some may draw up plans for that ship I'd be very surprised if it didn't rot in drydock.

[Greywatch she/her]

First of all, Gloom, I'm not personally disagreeing with you about what Kaladin's orientation may or may not be. It's not unlike my own thoughts on how his character might be developed over the whole Stormlight Archive. 

 

Secondly, a lack of evidence of attraction to men does not equal a lack of attraction to men. More than that, sexuality is a spectrum; it doesn't have to be all one or the other. Sexuality develops all the time and it never stops. 

 

Lastly, while I think it's very important that we all continue to discuss the representation of sexual minorities here, in the smaller field of what shipping actually is, Kaladin's orientation doesn't matter. For example, I personally really like Kaladin/Adolin. I will ship this regardless of what the text shows. If Kaladin and Adolin are confirmed by Brandon to be perfect zeroes on the Kinsey scale (strictly heterosexual), I will still ship it because the ship is unaffected. If the series ends with Kaladin and Adolin romantically involved with other people or with no one at all, it doesn't affect what I ship.

 

I will reiterate what I've said earlier: ships are usually not predictions or expectations or theories for the text. Sometimes they can be, if you want to take another look at how the ship theorizing at the beginning of the topic utilized theories for the characters' personalities and possible future development. But if the ship is nixed in the next book, that doesn't kill the idea of the ship. From my experience in fandoms, what will almost certainly happen is once we have new information, we will incorporate that into the ship and create it new again.

 

Ships are extrapolations and possibilities. One last example... If Shallan and Renarin don't get together, that is not an obstacle, because you can't kill the idea of Shallan and Renarin being good for each other. If Kaladin is shown to be 100% straight, it does not destroy the concept of what he might be like in a relationship with Renarin or Adolin or whoever. 

Edited November 6, 2013 by Greywatch

[Fistsofrage]

I see Kaladin as an asexual hetero. I believe he finds women attractive, but he obviously doesn't spend much time dwelling on the subject. Then again, he hasn't really been around very many women that we've seen. Still, I don't believe Kaladin is driven to seek physical comfort, and he already has an emotional outlet in Syl. On the other hand, we can be pretty sure that Kaladin has no romantic interest in men. He has been surrounded by men constantly, we have seen how he views them from his own perspective. Any relationship Kaladin has with another man will be strictly platonic. Not deeply emotional, not flirtatious, and certainly not physically intimate. He doesn't seem to care what personal preferences other have towards the matter, but I see his ambivalence more as a matter of disinterest. He could develop a friendship with Renarin, but it would never be anything more than that.

 

I don't really have a good handle on Renarin, but I don't think he is attracted to other men. Even if he was attracted to other men, I don't believe that he would ever acknowledge that attraction due to his social position, his responsibilities, his fathers ideals, and his own hunger to become what his physical infirmities have thus far denied him.

 

So while some may draw up plans for that ship I'd be very surprised if it didn't rot in drydock.

 

 

Yeah, I don't really see it as a possible scenario either, and I am very interested in seeing Renarin's growth in this next book.

[Guest Alaxel]

Lastly, while I think it's very important that we all continue to discuss the representation of sexual minorities here...

In my experience, discussing any view about sexuality is extremely shaky ground.  It's so easy to offend someone, no matter how much care you take to be polite, respectful, and informed.  That being said, while it's fun to create these ships and discuss your ideas with others, this is not a romance novel.  That being the case, every relationship, whether romantic or otherwise, will exist solely to further the plot in some way.  Representing sexual minorities just for the sake of representing sexual minorities will detract from the story, rather than add to the story. I know that this usually doesn't have any bearing on shipping, because the purpose of shipping is not to divine the future but rather to explore the possibilities of good relationships.

 

However, I think that you still need to include the circumstances a character is in, from the text, as well as their personality types when you decide who would be good for whom.  For example, Kaladin and Renarin.  They could secretly be soul mates.  But they are social creatures with other obligations and aspirations besides finding romances.  There are social barriers that would prevent them from becoming romantically involved.  Renarin is worried that people think less of him due to his inability to participate in the masculine arts.  That's a fundamental part of who he is. A romantic relationship with Kaladin would likely make him a laughing stock in Alethi society.  The son of a Highprince, in love with a bridgeman slave?  It would destroy Renarin's already small reputation.  I wouldn't be surprised if other Highprinces sent him a Kholin uniform tailored to have a safehand sleeve if Renarin did that.  Imagine the pain this would cause Renarin.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that while some characters might be perfect for each other out of the context of the text, within the context of the text a relationship between those same characters would bring unhappiness to them. The circumstances that characters are in are a LARGE part of what defines them, and you cannot remove them from those circumstances in order to make a relationship without compromising the integrity/authenticity of the character.  And there is far more to consider in a relationship than just feels.

 

Understand that I in no way discriminate against anyone of any sexual orientation.  *braces for downvotes anyway*

Taking Kaladin's brotherly love for Tien and changing it to suit this view seems very wrong. Kaladin is all about protecting those who resemble Tien. We've been in Kaladin's mind for most of WoK and seen nothing other than the desire to help those people who cannot help themselves. And Kaladin has had several female interests, so I don't really see anything sparking any kind of love for Renarin at all. Especially since Renarin is a lighteyes.

There might be an unrequited love from Renarin's side, but I do not see Kaladin reciprocating it.

Even the idea of Renarin liking guys is iffy since it seems to be mostly based on his weakness. Being thoughtful and intelligent doesn't really convince one of that at all, and Renarin's desire to fight and help his family shows that the only thing that seems to hinder him from doing so is his weakness.

Tbh, I would not really enjoy dedicating myself to a 10 book series only to find out this kind of sexual information later on. If Renarin is into guys I'd like to find out asap so I can make peace and decide how I feel about it.

And Kaladin being into guys could really change everything. Since we don't know much about Renarin, it'd be ok for him, but we've been emotionally invested in Kaladin's journey and progress, and to not mention something important like that when a lot of people's enjoyment of the story is hinged on this character could be seen as a bit of a deception/betrayal and people might lose interest in the story and decide its not worth their time anymore.

Why was this downvoted?  Fistsofrage expressed his opinion in an informed, considerate manner.  As I understand it, upvoting is for quality posts, and downvoting is for inappropriate, hostile, or irrelevant posts.  The downvoting mechanism isn't meant to be used just because someone doesn't share your opinion.

 

So while some may draw up plans for that ship I'd be very surprised if it didn't rot in drydock.

Gloom.  If I could upvote that a thousand times, I would. That was fantastic on so many levels. By far the best pun I've seen in months.

[Gloom he/him]

First of all, Gloom, I'm not personally disagreeing with you about what Kaladin's orientation may or may not be. It's not unlike my own thoughts on how his character might be developed over the whole Stormlight Archive. 

 

Secondly, a lack of evidence of attraction to men does not equal a lack of attraction to men. More than that, sexuality is a spectrum; it doesn't have to be all one or the other. Sexuality develops all the time and it never stops. 

 

Lastly, while I think it's very important that we all continue to discuss the representation of sexual minorities here, in the smaller field of what shipping actually is, Kaladin's orientation doesn't matter. For example, I personally really like Kaladin/Adolin. I will ship this regardless of what the text shows. If Kaladin and Adolin are confirmed by Brandon to be perfect zeroes on the Kinsey scale (strictly heterosexual), I will still ship it because the ship is unaffected. If the series ends with Kaladin and Adolin romantically involved with other people or with no one at all, it doesn't affect what I ship.

 

I will reiterate what I've said earlier: ships are usually not predictions or expectations or theories for the text. Sometimes they can be, if you want to take another look at how the ship theorizing at the beginning of the topic utilized theories for the characters' personalities and possible future development. But if the ship is nixed in the next book, that doesn't kill the idea of the ship. From my experience in fandoms, what will almost certainly happen is once we have new information, we will incorporate that into the ship and create it new again.

 

Ships are extrapolations and possibilities. One last example... If Shallan and Renarin don't get together, that is not an obstacle, because you can't kill the idea of Shallan and Renarin being good for each other. If Kaladin is shown to be 100% straight, it does not destroy the concept of what he might be like in a relationship with Renarin or Adolin or whoever. 

 

I agree that everything you've said is potentially possible, but we obviously see Kaladin very differently. I do think Kaladin is passionate, but that passion doesn't run towards individuals, his passions are in his ideals. I don't ever really see Kaladin as someone who will pursue a relationship with another person. He may be pursued, and he may even be caught, but I see his focus directed elsewhere. Because of his focus and his world view, I don't believe he would bother to acknowledge feelings of intimacy directed towards him by a member of his sex. I believe that in order to capture Kaladins affection, his prospective partner would need to be patient and persistent. In other words, very much like Navani is towards Dalinar. Men aren't patient and persistent. We may be one, but we are rarely both. Adolin is neither.

 

I could see Adolin having feelings for Kaladin, but I could never see Kaladin reciprocate those feelings.

 

I am willing to respect the representation of sexual minorities, but I'm also aware that they are minorities. I don't think it's reasonable or realistic to ship multiple same sex relationships in a book where it isn't the cultural norm. I'm also aware that Brandon isn't comfortable that he could write such a relationship realistically. Obviously your free to write whatever you desire, but I feel obligated to respectfully argue against such a ship in a forum that is primarily centered on probabilities and theories because those ships, as pleasant as they may be for you to imagine, are highly unlikely to occur.

[Guest Alaxel]

Well said, Gloom.  Exactly what I tried to say just more...articulate.

[Ete'ni]

Natans

Yeah, that I one I've found. It's hard to tell, what'll happen. I just think that that woman is older than Kaladin. At least. Actually, I thought of her having grown up kids and being like mortherly character to him. Again, it was my impression of her. And she's obviously more experienced in such matters. I'd pass. Seriously, I like Kaladin that much as to wish a nice romantic affair for him with an actual feeling of being airsick. An it's been clear that he like Syl-type girls. And who is caring and sarcastic?

[Argent he/him]

Bah! This serious talk bores me. 

 

It's about time we shipped Syl and Wyndle. Sylyndle, engage!

[Ete'ni]

Emmm... and the result would be what?

[Argent he/him]

Hell if I know. Can spren touch each other in Shadesmar?

[marianmi]

Sylyndle, engage!

 

I read that as "swindle"...

[marianmi]

Emmm... and the result would be what?

 

I think the result would be a certain type of anime where you have a vine that .... i'll stop now.

[Ete'ni]

Hell if I know. Can spren touch each other in Shadesmar?

Why do you ask? research!

 

I can't but think that poor Kaladin would be forced to listen to all babbling about that... might be fun

[Zizoz he/him]

While this forum does seem to primarily focus on theories, I don't understand it to be a requirement. Thus, I think we should accept other ways of engaging with the books, such as shipping even when one doesn't expect the ship to become canon, rather than insisting on ships being treated as theories.

 

But insofar as we are talking about homosexuality, ships as theories, and ideas from outside 17th Shard, I'd  be interested to know what people's thoughts are on the idea presented in this old post on Westeros. Relevant part:

 

 

Two, did anyone else come away with the impression that King Gavilar was gay? More specifically, that he was in a secret relationship with Sadeas? Here is what makes me believe this:

1.) Navani did not love him. She was fond of him and considered him a good man, but clearly there was no passion between them. Yet she also says that he was aggressive in courting her, and that he was the kind of man who took what he wanted. So what happened? She said that he gave her ample reason to be unfaithful to him, but she wasn't. Was he cheating on her, shunning her bed? If so, why?

2.) Gavilar was supposed to have retired to his chambers when Szeth went to kill him. Yet Sadeas was presumably already in Gavilar's chamber when Szeth started his attack. Why? Sadeas was also the one who ran out the room as a decoy, unarmored. Dalinar says that is one of the bravest things he has ever known a man to do. Sadeas did that, really? Why would Sadeas do something so selfless? Very odd. 

3.) Sadeas genuinely seems loyal to Elhokar, even Dalinar notes this. I think a relationship between Gavilar and Sadeas would explain why he is so protective of Elhokar. Plus, Sadeas admittedly looovves fashion. Hint hint? /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />

I've always kind of liked this idea. Although I realize that, representation-wise, a dead king and a major antagonist might not be the best representatives...

[Natans he/him]

I see Kaladin as an asexual hetero. I believe he finds women attractive, but he obviously doesn't spend much time dwelling on the subject. Then again, he hasn't really been around very many women that we've seen. Still, I don't believe Kaladin is driven to seek physical comfort, and he already has an emotional outlet in Syl. On the other hand, we can be pretty sure that Kaladin has no romantic interest in men. He has been surrounded by men constantly, we have seen how he views them from his own perspective. Any relationship Kaladin has with another man will be strictly platonic. Not deeply emotional, not flirtatious, and certainly not physically intimate. He doesn't seem to care what personal preferences other have towards the matter, but I see his ambivalence more as a matter of disinterest. He could develop a friendship with Renarin, but it would never be anything more than that.

 

I don't really have a good handle on Renarin, but I don't think he is attracted to other men. Even if he was attracted to other men, I don't believe that he would ever acknowledge that attraction due to his social position, his responsibilities, his fathers ideals, and his own hunger to become what his physical infirmities have thus far denied him.

 

So while some may draw up plans for that ship I'd be very surprised if it didn't rot in drydock.

 

I must disagree:

 

1- When he was a boy he was a crush for Laral

2- In Amaram amry there is Tarah ( I could bet taht in this pond there is fish)

3- He blushed when the looked to the expoded safe hand of the courtesean in Sadeas army.

 

Maybe he hadn't many chances to look for this kind of thing but now, in this new position this could change fast. 

 

 

Natans

Yeah, that I one I've found. It's hard to tell, what'll happen. I just think that that woman is older than Kaladin. At least. Actually, I thought of her having grown up kids and being like mortherly character to him. Again, it was my impression of her. And she's obviously more experienced in such matters. I'd pass. Seriously, I like Kaladin that much as to wish a nice romantic affair for him with an actual feeling of being airsick. An it's been clear that he like Syl-type girls. And who is caring and sarcastic?

 

 

Nothing to say. I gonna wait and see =)

Edited November 7, 2013 by Natans

[Ete'ni]

Natans

Oh, did I drive you speechless? so fast? I'm improving.

 

Zizoz,

I think Gavilar was just womanizer and probably bullied his brother, knowing that he loved Navani. the joke just went too far. Then again Sadeas is just as bad as Gavilar in bulling and courting matters. But go ahead and draw some fiction on the matter.

[EHyde she/her]

Why was this downvoted?  Fistsofrage expressed his opinion in an informed, considerate manner.  As I understand it, upvoting is for quality posts, and downvoting is for inappropriate, hostile, or irrelevant posts.  The downvoting mechanism isn't meant to be used just because someone doesn't share your opinion.

Taking Kaladin's brotherly love for Tien and changing it to suit this view seems very wrong. Kaladin is all about protecting those who resemble Tien. We've been in Kaladin's mind for most of WoK and seen nothing other than the desire to help those people who cannot help themselves. And Kaladin has had several female interests, so I don't really see anything sparking any kind of love for Renarin at all. Especially since Renarin is a lighteyes.

There might be an unrequited love from Renarin's side, but I do not see Kaladin reciprocating it.

Even the idea of Renarin liking guys is iffy since it seems to be mostly based on his weakness. Being thoughtful and intelligent doesn't really convince one of that at all, and Renarin's desire to fight and help his family shows that the only thing that seems to hinder him from doing so is his weakness.

Tbh, I would not really enjoy dedicating myself to a 10 book series only to find out this kind of sexual information later on. If Renarin is into guys I'd like to find out asap so I can make peace and decide how I feel about it.

And Kaladin being into guys could really change everything. Since we don't know much about Renarin, it'd be ok for him, but we've been emotionally invested in Kaladin's journey and progress, and to not mention something important like that when a lot of people's enjoyment of the story is hinged on this character could be seen as a bit of a deception/betrayal and people might lose interest in the story and decide its not worth their time anymore.

 

I'm not responsible for any of the downvoting, but I would assume that it's because this post comes across as pretty homophobic. It's one thing (a perfectly reasonable thing!) to read Kaladin as straight, but saying that revealing Kaladin as not straight would feel like a betrayal and would prevent people from being able to enjoy the story as much--when from everything we've seen romance is not a major part of the story at all--really makes it sound like he thinks non-straight characters are lesser/not worth his time even when their orientation doesn't affect the story at all. 

 

And saying that, were Kaladin not straight, his brotherly love for Tien would have to be reinterpreted, really has some unfortunate implications. It... really comes across like he's saying that gay people can't love their siblings without it being some incestuous pedophilic thing. I really doubt that's what Fistsofrage meant to imply, but you can see why people would find that insulting and offensive!