Speculation: How has Kaladin's Father changed?

[Bort]

That's exactly what I mean by "too predictable". We all expect exactly this to happen, we expect Kaladin to save Heartstone and to lead the survivors to Kholinar... Why would they go to Kholinar? They are part of the Sadeas's princedom, not the Kholin one. Why would the people want to move into another princedom? We may know Sadeas is a piece of scum, but back in Heartstone, people probably have a different opinion: just look at how Kaladin used to view Amaram, with awe. 

 

Because Dalinar said at the end of WoR that 'maybe he could stop by Kholinar to see what was happening there' or something to that effect. That's why Kholinar, and not Sadeas' capital.

[Zea mays]

One of the first things Kaladin says to Teft in WOK is "my own brother died because of me". Later we learn that Tien's death was in no way his fault, but that in no way stops him from feeling deeply guilty about "failing" to save him.

Kaladin likes to take responsibility for things.

He gets that from his father.

 

Does Lirin feel deep personal guilt about what happened to Tien? Whether or not it was truly in any way his fault is irrelevant to how he feels. My guess is that when Kal and Lirin eventually meet their feelings will mirror each other.

 

Having an emotional break-through that releases the hero of the festering baggage of guilt he has been carrying like a clingy monkey on his back for years - it doesn't feel like something that happens in the beginning of a book. It's more of a climax or dénouement sort of thing.

Besides, I don't think Mr. Sanderson is done torturing Kaladin quite yet. My prediction is that he will have the cards stacked for maximum angst levels. That means that either:

1) Lirin and Hesina would have left Hearthstone for parts unknown (most likely Karbranth), or

2) Both will still be living at Hearthstone, but, initially, at least, the reunion will not go well.  Lirin and Kaladin will butt heads through out the book before eventually reconciling during the inevitable Sanderson Avalanche^tm . For bonus points, Dalinar and Adolin will go through a parallel struggle.

 

I'm not married to any prediction though. Ask me next week and I'll be thinking something completely different.

[natc]

Well, in a roundabout way Kaladin and Lirin being unable to save Roshone's son (and like any sensible doctor with another urgent patient to work on, didn't even try) is sort of how the grudge escalated to as high as it did. Which prompted sending Tien to the army in revenge.

So it isn't entirely not his fault, if only because he could've just let Roshone die that day. It's still just him being overly self-centered regarding his losses though.

Edited September 17, 2015 by natc

[JayWood2010]

Im just as interested to see how Laral reacts as seeing his parents reaction.  Laral was his best childhood friend as well as being a girl he he started to develop more romantic feelings towards.  Later on she would treat him badly because the guy she was with and eye color.  Now that Kaladin has blue eyes and is pretty much the highest rank you can be Im curious to see how she reacts.  

As for his parents I imagine that there will be some complications but Im not sure of what they will be.  I also am curious to see how Kalidin reacts seeing Rishone again as that is probably worst seeing him than when Kaliden saw Amaram

[mirahound]

Having an emotional break-through that releases the hero of the festering baggage of guilt he has been carrying like a clingy monkey on his back for years - it doesn't feel like something that happens in the beginning of a book. It's more of a climax or dénouement sort of thing.

Besides, I don't think Mr. Sanderson is done torturing Kaladin quite yet. My prediction is that he will have the cards stacked for maximum angst levels. That means that either:

1) Lirin and Hesina would have left Hearthstone for parts unknown (most likely Karbranth), or

2) Both will still be living at Hearthstone, but, initially, at least, the reunion will not go well.  Lirin and Kaladin will butt heads through out the book before eventually reconciling during the inevitable Sanderson Avalanche^tm . For bonus points, Dalinar and Adolin will go through a parallel struggle.

 

I'm not married to any prediction though. Ask me next week and I'll be thinking something completely different.

Ooh, I love the idea of Lirin and Hesina not actually being there! And that might give him more incentive to go searching for them in Kholinar... I don't know if they would be able to make it all the way to Kharbranth.

[maxal]

Because Dalinar said at the end of WoR that 'maybe he could stop by Kholinar to see what was happening there' or something to that effect. That's why Kholinar, and not Sadeas' capital.

 

I did not mean why would Kaladin go to Kholinar, we already assumed he would be going there. I meant why would the survivors of Heartstone follow him there? Even if they managed to be convinced leaving the town they have known all there life is the right choice, they are likely to wish to go to their own princedom's capital, not somewhere else. Besides, has anyone given some thought as to how Kaladin was supposed to "lead" them through a country land he does not know all the way to Kholinar? With the women, the children and the elderly, it would take him weeks to do so while being out in the open most of the time. How are they supposed to find shelter for the Highstorms in the middle of nowhere? 

 

Seriously, I don't even think leaving Heartstone is a good idea at all. The survivors would strike better luck by fortifying their village, organizing patrols and defenses as well as taking in the sole wanderers running away from the Desolation. This is what I wish to see Kaladin do. Help them built back, fight back, not give up and follow him to an endless trek where many would surely die only to clustered tighter into Kholinar knowing full well it is in revolt... People are starving in Kholinar. In Heartstone, at least, they produce their own food. They are farmers. Despite the Everstorm, they may be able to salvage some of their fields. 

 

 

Besides, I don't think Mr. Sanderson is done torturing Kaladin quite yet. My prediction is that he will have the cards stacked for maximum angst levels. That means that either:

 

I may be the only one, but I do not wish to see Kaladin going through another round of torture either physical or psychological. It would seriously become redundant if it happened. 

 

I may also be the only one, but I wish to see Kaladin struggle with other aspects of life, such as learning to do a job while lacking some serious training. Learning not all fights are won on the battlefield. Learning you can't solve all your problems by killing a villain as most problems can't be tied back to one single culprit. I want him to stop separating the world into the people he needs to protect and those who are against him. Basically, I do not want his future hardships to come, again, from being beaten up, betrayed, imprisoned, tortured. I want them to come because he needs to grow up, because he needs to stop thinking the spear is the solution to all issues. 

 

Being plunged into Kholinar's politics would do exactly that. He would be forced to come up with solutions other than killing the evil people. He would be forced to learn something.

 

The last thing I want is Kaladin to go down into another round of rock bottom then bounce back into an epic fight. This is static and I want him to grow as a character. Next phase, I believe, has to happen outside the battlefield and the angst.

[Zea mays]

I may be the only one, but I do not wish to see Kaladin going through another round of torture either physical or psychological. It would seriously become redundant if it happened. 

 

I may also be the only one, but I wish to see Kaladin struggle with other aspects of life, such as learning to do a job while lacking some serious training. Learning not all fights are won on the battlefield. Learning you can't solve all your problems by killing a villain as most problems can't be tied back to one single culprit. I want him to stop separating the world into the people he needs to protect and those who are against him. Basically, I do not want his future hardships to come, again, from being beaten up, betrayed, imprisoned, tortured. I want them to come because he needs to grow up, because he needs to stop thinking the spear is the solution to all issues. 

 

Being plunged into Kholinar's politics would do exactly that. He would be forced to come up with solutions other than killing the evil people. He would be forced to learn something.

 

Um, I must be phrasing my thoughts badly. When I say "I do not think Mr. Sanderson is quite done torturing Kaladin" I do not mean that he intends to place him in a room with white walls, blaring lights, constant barrage of atrocious 'music', electrodes in uncomfortable places, etc... I am merely making a facetious reference to the fact that he likes to write about his main characters going through difficulties and sufferings (and I love to read it, of course). I expect him to "torment" Kaladin in exactly the ways you describe - impossible situations he is not prepared for, difficult moral choices, and personal relationship troubles (any kind of personal relationship, not necessarily romantic ones).

 

I guess I could  point out that Kaladin goes through NO physical or emotional torture during WOR. He was not betrayed or tortured, and his short imprisonment was caused mainly by his own blundering. He mainly has to deal with a new, unfamiliar situation - being in command of ~1,000 men, and being a member of the Kholin faction of Alethkar politics.  His epiphany at the climax of that book was partially about learning that simply killing the "bad king" would not solve any problems. Unfortunately, he did not got a chance to resolve his issues with Elhokar further - he had to run off fly off and fight Szeth immediately.  We didn't see his next meeting with Elhokar, or what details of his involvement  with the assassination attempt (if any) he actually divulged to Dalinar. But I digress. This will eventually have to be addressed in book 3 anyway.

 

 

The last thing I want is Kaladin to go down into another round of rock bottom then bounce back into an epic fight. This is static and I want him to grow as a character. Next phase, I believe, has to happen outside the battlefield and the angst.

 

 

Lawl, an angst-less Kaladin would be something to see read about. I don't think he could get there quickly enough though. He would have to go through a lot of (unfortunately, rather angsty) character development.

So, I guess we... agree?

[natc]

He will finally overcome his angst and have hope in life again . . . just in time to find out the "wicked thing of eminence" that caused the Day of Recreance.

I can see it now.

[maxal]

Um, I must be phrasing my thoughts badly. When I say "I do not think Mr. Sanderson is quite done torturing Kaladin" I do not mean that he intends to place him in a room with white walls, blaring lights, constant barrage of atrocious 'music', electrodes in uncomfortable places, etc... I am merely making a facetious reference to the fact that he likes to write about his main characters going through difficulties and sufferings (and I love to read it, of course). I expect him to "torment" Kaladin in exactly the ways you describe - impossible situations he is not prepared for, difficult moral choices, and personal relationship troubles (any kind of personal relationship, not necessarily romantic ones).

 

I guess I could  point out that Kaladin goes through NO physical or emotional torture during WOR. He was not betrayed or tortured, and his short imprisonment was caused mainly by his own blundering. He mainly has to deal with a new, unfamiliar situation - being in command of ~1,000 men, and being a member of the Kholin faction of Alethkar politics.  His epiphany at the climax of that book was partially about learning that simply killing the "bad king" would not solve any problems. Unfortunately, he did not got a chance to resolve his issues with Elhokar further - he had to run off fly off and fight Szeth immediately.  We didn't see his next meeting with Elhokar, or what details of his involvement  with the assassination attempt (if any) he actually divulged to Dalinar. But I digress. This will eventually have to be addressed in book 3 anyway.

 

This is exactly what I envisioned when I read your first post       without the white walls and the music... I basically envisioned Kaladin being physically beaten up again, being imprisoned again, being injured again which I felt was getting redundant.

 

In WoR, Kaladin had his arm sliced as he has, of course, to be the character to experience reviving a Blade injured member.... He was also thrown into prison which lead for several chapters of dark thoughts as he was "tortured" again by the evil lighteyes, even if it was his own doing. He is the one who falls into the chasm, single handily defeated a chasmfiend and gets horribly injured. He nearly gets killed trying to defend Elhokar and had to make a push for Syl while being on the verge of death.

 

Forgive me, but I thought it was much, too much. I am all for hurt and comfort stories: I adore hurt and comfort stories, but Kaladin did not read as one. It just reads as the main protagonist who's life just keeps going from bad to worst, but hey he gets to have an epic fight. It worked for me in WoK, but after WoR, I feel the recipe is growing old. It has gotten to a point where each time Kaladin is involved in an action, I know he will succeed and kill whoever is opposing him. His last fight with Szeth was completely emotionless for me as the outcome was obvious to me.

 

The fight between Dalinar, Adolin and Szeth though was much more powerful and emotion filled, in my personal humble opinion.

 

For all of those reasons, I wish for Kaladin's story arc to take a different path. 

 

I agree we do seem to agree with the core of it.

[mirahound]

This is exactly what I envisioned when I read your first post       without the white walls and the music... I basically envisioned Kaladin being physically beaten up again, being imprisoned again, being injured again which I felt was getting redundant.

 

In WoR, Kaladin had his arm sliced as he has, of course, to be the character to experience reviving a Blade injured member.... He was also thrown into prison which lead for several chapters of dark thoughts as he was "tortured" again by the evil lighteyes, even if it was his own doing. He is the one who falls into the chasm, single handily defeated a chasmfiend and gets horribly injured. He nearly gets killed trying to defend Elhokar and had to make a push for Syl while being on the verge of death.

I dunno, Kal's arm healed in, like, a minute. Tops. I wouldn't consider that "torture", just a way to show how powerful he is with Stormlight. And, Shallan also fell into the chasm. He wasn't the ONLY one. She helped defeat the chasmfiend. Let's not forget our lovely Radiant ladies. I honestly think Kaladin's plot-line through WoR had more to do with him learning how much his actions can affect other people in a negative way. He was willing to kill Elhokar without considering how it would affect the rest of the kingdom, he gave his Shards away to his "best friend" even though he knew how unstable he was, and he KILLED Syl. I think the first book was about Kaladin being hurt by others; in WoR, I think it was more about him unintentionally hurting his friends. I wouldn't say they were redundant.

[maxal]

I dunno, Kal's arm healed in, like, a minute. Tops. I wouldn't consider that "torture", just a way to show how powerful he is with Stormlight. And, Shallan also fell into the chasm. He wasn't the ONLY one. She helped defeat the chasmfiend. Let's not forget our lovely Radiant ladies. I honestly think Kaladin's plot-line through WoR had more to do with him learning how much his actions can affect other people in a negative way. He was willing to kill Elhokar without considering how it would affect the rest of the kingdom, he gave his Shards away to his "best friend" even though he knew how unstable he was, and he KILLED Syl. I think the first book was about Kaladin being hurt by others; in WoR, I think it was more about him unintentionally hurting his friends. I wouldn't say they were redundant.

 

I misquoted myself. I loved WoR. I understand the plot line we had and I loved it when I read it. I may however suffering from over-exposure right now as every single thing that irked me is currently growing out of proportion due to lack of new material to discuss about... 

 

That being said, I meant I would feel book 3 would get redundant if it presents us a similar story arc for Kaladin which is why I advocate for a different approach to his future growth. You make interesting point though... I am not annoyed at all Shallan fell into the chasm: I am annoyed Kaladin did. Strange.

[mirahound]

I misquoted myself. I loved WoR. I understand the plot line we had and I loved it when I read it. I may however suffering from over-exposure right now as every single thing that irked me is currently growing out of proportion due to lack of new material to discuss about... 

 

That being said, I meant I would feel book 3 would get redundant if it presents us a similar story arc for Kaladin which is why I advocate for a different approach to his future growth. You make interesting point though... I am not annoyed at all Shallan fell into the chasm: I am annoyed Kaladin did. Strange.

Not all that strange. Kaladin does tend to be the butt-monkey on Roshar. 

[maxal]

Not all that strange. Kaladin does tend to be the butt-monkey on Roshar. 

 

   

 

But I am still annoyed Kaladin fell into the chasm     

[The Honor Spren]

But I am still annoyed Kaladin fell into the chasm

But why? The chasm scenes had some great character development!

[ParadoxicalZen]

I'm of the opinion Roshone will be dead or is close to dying when SA3 hits. And as stated earlier in the topic, Kaladin will be ragged and exhuasted and most likely taken for runaway slave. The rest of the town will most likely be scornful/loathing but given the current situation it could be demoted to a trivial thing. I'm still hoping Jasnah comes along and marshals everyone into order.

 

Really eager to see when Lirin and Hesina see Kaladin...you will definitely hear the penny drop

[maxal]

But why? The chasm scenes had some great character development!

 

I detested it. It felt too contrived as if the author decided Kaladin and Shallan needed to get into a relationship. He thus trusted them down into the chasm so they would be allowed all the latitude to yell at each other without any interference until, oh suspense, Kaladin gets injured just so they could cuddle into a small hole while a storm raged outside. They then, oh double surprise, they start to share their trouble broken past which enables them to see each other into a new light. The rest is just epic really as, of course, the second they open up, it is love at first sight.

 

Beurk. I felt as if I was into a bad 80s movie. And Kaladin killing a chasmfiend almost on his own? COME ON. Alright, he got injured, but he still manages to climb 80 feet on a bleeding leg? And the next morning, he can climb back down and walk to the camp? COME ON.

 

So see I hate the chasm scenes. Too forced, too contrived, too implausible and more importantly way too cliche.

[mirahound]

So see I hate the chasm scenes. Too forced, too contrived, too implausible and more importantly way too cliche.

Well, some things are cliched for a reason. There are worse things to do. I think it was well-written. And honestly, the two of them had to talk on their own eventually. I think they're the only two that can really understand each other's pain, and therefore start the healing process.

[maxal]

Well, some things are cliched for a reason. There are worse things to do. I think it was well-written. And honestly, the two of them had to talk on their own eventually. I think they're the only two that can really understand each other's pain, and therefore start the healing process.

 

 I disagree they are the only ones able to understand each other. Their ordeal has nothing in common, they way of dealing with it neither. The only thing they share is the fact they have had hardships, but it is highly wrong to think only those who suffered are able to understand pain. 

[Landis963]

At the very least, Kaladin needed someone to jar him out of the rut he was in, and the only way to get him to listen was to appeal to commonality.  The rest of Bridge Four don't count, because they all idolize him, which is not exactly conducive to him being told what his mistakes are.  Shallan has the connection necessary to get through to him, and the gumption to tell him where exactly to stow his crem dung.  (Also, the Stormfather laying out the consequences of breaking his oath, and telling Kaladin in exacting detail that yes, he did break his oath, was a big part of it)  

Edited September 23, 2015 by Landis963

[AerionBFII]

I thought a few of the scenes from the chasm were a little corny but they at some point did need to be with each other outside of the Bodyguard and Brightness status quo. When their lives were hanging in the balance and they had to move past their initial minor distrust of each other and worked together they couldn't not bond a little, it's what shared experiences do to people. Kaladin needed to open up and vent, he also needed to move past his hatred and suspicion of all Lighteyes and Shallan needed to stop hoarding all of her secrets and trust a little. They were and are in similar positions, both broken and hurt discovering and trying to control their powers on their own.

 

I think in general that helped them a great deal in character development. They both found qualities that they respect in each other and i think they were a little infatuated with each other but i do not think it will really turn into a romantic relationship. Kaladin would not steal Adolins girl and Shallan needs the Kholins.