Speculation: How has Kaladin's Father changed?

[Colateralwar]

The last we saw of Kaladin's father was the day that Tien and Kaladin were both drafted into the army. At this point he seems completely and utterly defeated, and it is unclear if either of the two had any communication with their parents when they were in the army (we know that Kaladin sent a message telling them Tien had died and that he would not be returning to Hearthstone, but, so far as we know, there was no reply). 

 

Now with Stormlight 3 coming and Kaladin returning to Hearthstone for the first time, the confrontation with both Roshone and his father are two of the highlights (or cringe moments) most readers are expecting. However, I am not sure that Leerin is still there. 

 

I doubt that Roshone ended his smear campaign against Kaladin's father, and with Leerin so completely dejected following the loss of his sons, he probably wouldn't have been able to stand it. An additional stressor--such as the news of Tien's death, Kaladin's enslavement, or something else (perhaps his mother died in the intervening years)--could have pushed Leerin over the edge, changing him into something rather dark. I think he may have gone to Kharbranth, and I think it is possible he has become involved in The Diagram.

 

I don't have any real evidence to support this theory--no references to Leerin, or a man matching his description, were made in any scene involving Taravangian--but given the importance that Taravangian will play in the overall plot of the Stormlight archive I think we are going to start seeing more ties between him and the other characters. Having a family member in his direct orbit would do that. Additionally, it would play well into Kaladin's development: he still has yet to confront and deal with the contradiction of killing to protect. What character better exemplifies this belief than Taravangian and his "silent gatherers"? If his father has become involved in this, it could even lead to another ideal. Something like, "I will protect those I love, even from themselves." 

 

Thoughts? How do you think the reunion (if it happens) will go? How has Leerin changed, do you think?

[maxal she/her]

First of, we do know that both parents are alive.

 

Second of, I for one, have been advocating for a different outcome on the Heartstone reunion. In other words, I do not want to see Roshone keep on being the evil lord and I do not want to see Kaladin's family keeping on being mistreated. This is getting old. Roshone is getting old.

 

How about if, for a change, Lirin did not break? Nor Hesina? What if they continued despite having lost their sons? What if they had another child even? What if Roshone lost his power over Heartstone due to falling health? What if his wife, Laral, is the one now pulling the strings and despite Roshone's perpetual grudge, she does not take it out on the surgeon?

 

Why does the "evil and petty" guy has to keep on being "evil"? Why can't he progress? Roshone may have been a rotten apple, but the fact remains Lirin did steal those spheres and, in his grief, he accused Lirin of having let his son die. To extract revenge, he send Tien to his death: a son for a son. What if he came to regret his actions?

 

Sincerely, I would prefer if Brandon went outside the box for this particular story arc. 

[Grey Knight]

Hmm. I am in the personal opinion that Lirin is not going to like how much of a warrior Kaladin has become. Other than that, I am totally open to whatever happens in SA 3.

 

Also, Colateralwar, you're misspelling Kaladin's dad's name. It's Lirin, not Leerin. Just sayin'.

[DreamEternal]

While I dislike the idea Lirin had another child (how long it was since he lost both of his children anyway?), I think he won't be utterly broken. He has a firm resolution to help his town and all those who come to him, and can put his emotions besides when he needs to. I think Kaladin will find him healing the wounded and holding Hearthstone togheter, perhaps with Laral's help.

Roshone... I don't think he will have any true importance. The world is ending, and if he doens't drop his petty feud to feal with more important matters people will sooner ir later stop respecting his authority and turn towards those who are actualy helping. Maybe he even surprises us by actualy being useful and he and Lirin develop a tense, cold and faint respect for each other.

How Lirin will react to who his son became? Disappointment, I'd say. Radiant or not, officer or not, he would never aprove of his son becoming a killer. Like Dalinar, Lirin is a man who cannot bend. I am not saying that he will hate Kaladin, just that there will be little pride in his eyes when he hears his tale.

[Colateralwar]

Ah, thanks Potato. I listen to the audiobooks, so i am guessing at pretty much all the spelling. 

 

Maxal: I agree with you that something other than expected would be nice. I could buy Lirin (thank you, Potato) remaining a good man--though that would be downright amazing considering the things that have happened to him--but I have a harder time buying Roshone becoming a better man. Its not impossible, and maybe it is a good idea just because it would force Kaladin into even tougher emotional situations (I mean, what do you do when the man that tormented your family and caused the death of your little brother turns his life around?). Still, its hard to credit considering his past.

 

Regardless of how things proceeded with Kaladin gone, though, something needs to be wrong outside of the whole "oh crap the storm is blowing the wrong way and our slaves are starting to look a little evil." Its a book, and the beginning of one to boot; things need to be rife with conflict, physical and emotional, for the story to proceed. 

[maxal she/her]

While I dislike the idea Lirin had another child (how long it was since he lost both of his children anyway?), I think he won't be utterly broken. 

 

Alethi tend to marry young and Kaladin left Heartstone at 15 years old. If his parents were in their late teens or their early twenties when he was born, they would still be young enough to have decided on a third kid. It's highly unlikely they had a third child following the boys departure, but I'll admit it is a pet theory of mine I am rather found of.

 

 

Maxal: I agree with you that something other than expected would be nice. I could buy Lirin (thank you, Potato) remaining a good man--though that would be downright amazing considering the things that have happened to him--but I have a harder time buying Roshone becoming a better man. Its not impossible, and maybe it is a good idea just because it would force Kaladin into even tougher emotional situations (I mean, what do you do when the man that tormented your family and caused the death of your little brother turns his life around?). Still, its hard to credit considering his past.

 

Regardless of how things proceeded with Kaladin gone, though, something needs to be wrong outside of the whole "oh crap the storm is blowing the wrong way and our slaves are starting to look a little evil." Its a book, and the beginning of one to boot; things need to be rife with conflict, physical and emotional, for the story to proceed. 

 

Well, that's the thing. We don't expect Roshone to do anything worth mentioning, but we shall be recalled Dalinar once was a despicable human being who managed to grow into someone honorable. The predictable track for Roshone is to remain awful and to keep on torturing Lirin. We expect this, which is why I root for another denouement, one where the good side of humanity is shown, one where the "evil" guy does not get the upper hand. Either he gets superseded due to bad health or lost of spirit or simply guilt as he faced his aging years, I want Roshone story arc to take another turn.

 

I also do not want any additional drama twist into Kaladin's story arc. The first two books heavily revolved around Kaladin and his broken past: now I want him to deal with it. I want him to calmly look at Roshone and move one, without any tempest nor trumpets, just a man who consciously chooses to move on to more important things.

 

I may be the only one, but I personally hope for the Heartstone story arc to not be another motor for Kaladin's angst. I want him to learn the value of team play and to realize he is not the only capable individual in this world. 

[Colateralwar]

I get what you are saying about no further emotional twists with Kaladin. His problems have largely been the impetus behind a great chunk of the narrative this far--which is fine, considering he is one of the main characters--but it can become problematic if it is the sole means of movement. 

 

Still, Kaladin has two main issues to address (character wise) I feel, and two ideals left to swear (look at that coincidence, lol): his issue with lighteyes and now being one, and his inner conflict about killing and protecting and the relationship between them. The most obvious way for him to confront either of these is through interaction with his past, and he is now literally going back to confront it. One or the other is likely to come into play in Stormlight 3. I have no problem with him dealing with his past in a non-Kaladin way, but I don't think he is there yet. Because of the third ideal he isn't going to kill Roshone regardless of what happens, I think, but I don't think he has reached the point where he can just accept what has happened either. This is where his father, if he lives and if he is still the same sort of man he was, will come into play. 

 

As for the whole other child thing, that would be interesting. I don't remember any passages explicitly mentioning his parents age, so it is physically possible. It wonder how Kaladin would react to that; I don't think he would be mad, but I don't think he would deal with it well either. 

[king of nowhere]

what if it is a middle ground? maybe lirin has gotten really depressed, but he's still doing his best as the surgeon of heartstone. maybe roshone hasn't become a better man, but he dropped his grudge, feeling he got his revenge.

 

Or what if lirin has been broken, but with the help of kaladin he will put himself back together and will manage to attract a spren? From what I remember he was a very selfless man with a strong desire to help, like the guy who was killed by nalan in one of the interludes. I consider lirin becoming a radiant to be unllikely, but not impossible.

[maxal she/her]

I get what you are saying about no further emotional twists with Kaladin. His problems have largely been the impetus behind a great chunk of the narrative this far--which is fine, considering he is one of the main characters--but it can become problematic if it is the sole means of movement. 

 

Still, Kaladin has two main issues to address (character wise) I feel, and two ideals left to swear (look at that coincidence, lol): his issue with lighteyes and now being one, and his inner conflict about killing and protecting and the relationship between them. The most obvious way for him to confront either of these is through interaction with his past, and he is now literally going back to confront it. One or the other is likely to come into play in Stormlight 3. I have no problem with him dealing with his past in a non-Kaladin way, but I don't think he is there yet. Because of the third ideal he isn't going to kill Roshone regardless of what happens, I think, but I don't think he has reached the point where he can just accept what has happened either. This is where his father, if he lives and if he is still the same sort of man he was, will come into play. 

 

As for the whole other child thing, that would be interesting. I don't remember any passages explicitly mentioning his parents age, so it is physically possible. It wonder how Kaladin would react to that; I don't think he would be mad, but I don't think he would deal with it well either. 

 

That's the problem exactly. Kaladin isn't the only character in this story, but he has occupied most of the narrative for the past two books. I also feel his story arc has become too predictable: hardships, followed by depressive bouts and finally heroic save. I want to see his story take another turn, an unexpected one. 

 

I know Kaladin still has two more oaths to say, but I do not wish for them to occur in a do or die manner. I yearn for something else.... Surprise me Brandon. 

 

As for Lirin, he is still alive. This has been confirmed. I like the idea he may be the motor for Kaladin's future growth. Kaladin has try to deal with whether to kill or not to kill Amaram, Roshone, Elhokar... He even managed to convince himself killing Elhokar was justified to protect people from his bad king ship. Killing to protect, which happens to be the one thing Lirin has always been strongly opposed to. I'd say there is growth potential here and, more interestingly, one that could take place outside the battle field. Let's just say inner growth.

[Colateralwar]

Lirin as a radiant has been proposed somewhere else in these forums, I remember. Not sure where. Personally, I think the idea is worth noting. He is a good candidate from a character perspective, and after the events with his children he very well might qualify on the "broken" aspect as well. The only two real possibilities would be Truthwatcher or Edgedancer--because of the progression surge--but I don't think he really fits in either, though. 

 

The other issue is the one of overpowering characters. Thus far we have Kaladin, Shallan, Renarin, Dalinar, Jasnah, and possibly Elokhar and others as radiants. Adolin seems possible as well (many have speculated that he will "revive" his sword and bond the spren). If he makes any more of his main characters essentially super humans, it could make things difficult down the road. I like radiants, but there is something to be said for non-magical characters as well. Some of the best writing and character development I have ever read has come because the writer couldn't use magic as a fallback to solve problems. I'm by no means saying that Sanderson is guilty of this--he is very good at balancing the costs of magic use in his writing--but we could stand to see a few more main characters that aren't explicitly magical in nature. 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Colateralwar

[mirahound she/her]

That's the problem exactly. Kaladin isn't the only character in this story, but he has occupied most of the narrative for the past two books. I also feel his story arc has become too predictable: hardships, followed by depressive bouts and finally heroic save. I want to see his story take another turn, an unexpected one. 

 

I know Kaladin still has two more oaths to say, but I do not wish for them to occur in a do or die manner. I yearn for something else.... Surprise me Brandon. 

 

As for Lirin, he is still alive. This has been confirmed. I like the idea he may be the motor for Kaladin's future growth. Kaladin has try to deal with whether to kill or not to kill Amaram, Roshone, Elhokar... He even managed to convince himself killing Elhokar was justified to protect people from his bad king ship. Killing to protect, which happens to be the one thing Lirin has always been strongly opposed to. I'd say there is growth potential here and, more interestingly, one that could take place outside the battle field. Let's just say inner growth.

To be fair, I think from the beginning Kaladin was meant to be the "main character" through most of the series. He's the one taking the obvious hero's journey, and I've read in these forums before that Sanderson had considered actually giving him another POV book. While all the other characters are important and can be considered "main characters", I would definitely classify Kaladin as the series' protagonist.

[maxal she/her]

Lirin as a Radiant is a discussion that's been going on and off since the release of WoR. It has been customary to figure out if "potentially broken" characters could be future Radiants. For my part, I prefer to concentrate on characters having the proper attributes to fit within a given order. So far, I have not find such evidence for Lirin, but I may be wrong. However, I disagree his only two possibilities would be the Edgedancers and the Truthwatchers: simply because Lirin is a surgeon does not mean he has to get the surge that heals... 

 

I do not feel every character is overpowered: I feel Kaladin is currently overpowered. Renarin surely isn't and I did not feel the other characters are either. Adolin is interesting as the currently under powered character in a new world on the verge of a massive break down: him reviving his Blade is one of my all time favorite theories. I just WANT Adolin to become a Radiant through the back door because it would make an awesome story arc. However, I want to read about non-magical Adolin evolving in Radianland for a while before that happens. That being said, Elhokar becoming a Radiant is boring, to my eye and Lirin becoming one is too coincidental. Since we are getting non POV characters Radiants, I wish for them to be pick out at random among the lesser characters.

 

As for magic, surgebinding is restrictive enough characters should not be too overpowered. Kaladin's story arc has been so military oriented and focused so much on him being the hero, he does feel unbeatable. I hope to see that flinch. I want Kaladin to be placed in a situation where fighting and being awesomely good won't help him as not all battles are fought with arms. That would help break apart my current impression is too overpowered. 

 

 

To be fair, I think from the beginning Kaladin was meant to be the "main character" through most of the series. He's the one taking the obvious hero's journey, and I've read in these forums before that Sanderson had considered actually giving him another POV book. While all the other characters are important and can be considered "main characters", I would definitely classify Kaladin as the series' protagonist.

 

 

I don't know about that... I do not recall Brandon ever saying one character was more important than the others. The Stormlight Archive first arc is supposed to deal with the return of the Radiants, not just the Windrunners and Kaladin's hero journey. These are only one piece of the overall puzzle. However, they are the first piece we got acquainted with in a 10 book series.

 

I personally think other characters will arise in the following books and Kaladin won't take up so many space.

Edited September 16, 2015 by maxal

[Colateralwar]

Honestly, the only way I can see Sanderson cycling Kaladin back in prominence is by killing him--which I think might be what he is building to in book 5, unfortunately. The whole "force odium to select a champion" thing is where that is going, I think, and right now the three most obvious choices for Odium's champion are Szeth (for obvious reasons), Adolin (because the way his character is going he is either going to end up really really good or really really bad), and Moash (because he typifies the whole consumed by hatred to the point of attacking those he cares about thing). As much as I don't want Kaladin to die, there are only so many ways to back burner a character of this significance, and if Kaladin reaches all five ideals in the next two books then he will be either at or nearing the end of his character development, which for main characters usually means either death or stagnation >.<

[maxal she/her]

Honestly, the only way I can see Sanderson cycling Kaladin back in prominence is by killing him--which I think might be what he is building to in book 5, unfortunately. The whole "force odium to select a champion" thing is where that is going, I think, and right now the three most obvious choices for Odium's champion are Szeth (for obvious reasons), Adolin (because the way his character is going he is either going to end up really really good or really really bad), and Moash (because he typifies the whole consumed by hatred to the point of attacking those he cares about thing). As much as I don't want Kaladin to die, there are only so many ways to back burner a character of this significance, and if Kaladin reaches all five ideals in the next two books then he will be either at or nearing the end of his character development, which for main characters usually means either death or stagnation >.<

 

I personally believe the whole "champion" story arc is a red hearing. We expect it, we speculate on it: but it won't happen. I also don't think Kaladin is more at risk of dying than any other character so far. 

 

Adolin would never be Odium's champion, seriously. Of all characters, he is the least likely. In which world would he ever position himself against his family and his father? No matter how low he'll sink, he will never harm them: he loves them too much for that. Basically all he did in both books was because he loved his father. There is no way his love could be corrupted into hate and he is not power hungry, nor ambitious. There is just no hold on him for Odium to grab. What Adolin has is strong emotions he struggles to control, but they come in halves: there is anger, but there also is love and it is his love that fuels his anger, not the other way around. Seriously I see a lot of posters advocating Adolin is ripe to become Odium's puppet, but I just can't see it. I could also be very cheesy and say love trumps anger 

 

One interesting puppet though would be Elhokar. He is power hungry, he is eager to prove himself and he is at wits end to do so. The perfect recipient for Odium to take hold of. 

 

I don't think Szeth is likely either. Now he is finally rip of his stone, I think he'll try to avenge himself, but I do not believe he would attached himself to an evil entity again, not now he has his free-will back.

 

I have no idea where Moash is going...

[Bort he/him]

If the sample chapter is correct,

the one where Kaladin is travelling back to Hearthstone, then when he arrives, he will be filthy, and will be out of Stormlight. That coupled with the slave brand on his head will make people believe he is a runaway from somewhere. At least, until they get to someone who would recognise him.

 

Then, when he comes face to face with Hesina and Lirin, that is when they discover he has been a slave - remember that Kaladin himself had to send word back to his parents about Tien's death. I seriously doubt that anyone would have notified them that he had been made a slave.

 

With it being during the weeping, Hearthstone will have hardly any infused spheres, so he will only be able to recharge himself when he is brought face-to-face with Roshone. At which point, he steals their Stormlight, does a bit of glowing, and leads the survivors out of Hearthstone to Kholinar.

Edited September 17, 2015 by WeiryWriter
Please put stuff about preview chapters in spoiler tags

[Landis963 he/him]

I personally believe the whole "champion" story arc is a red herring. We expect it, we speculate on it: but it won't happen. I also don't think Kaladin is more at risk of dying than any other character so far. 

 

Adolin would never be Odium's champion, seriously. Of all characters, he is the least likely. In which world would he ever position himself against his family and his father? No matter how low he'll sink, he will never harm them: he loves them too much for that. Basically all he did in both books was because he loved his father. There is no way his love could be corrupted into hate and he is not power hungry, nor ambitious. There is just no hold on him for Odium to grab. What Adolin has is strong emotions he struggles to control, but they come in halves: there is anger, but there also is love and it is his love that fuels his anger, not the other way around. Seriously I see a lot of posters advocating Adolin is ripe to become Odium's puppet, but I just can't see it. I could also be very cheesy and say love trumps anger 

 

One interesting puppet though would be Elhokar. He is power hungry, he is eager to prove himself and he is at wits end to do so. The perfect recipient for Odium to take hold of. 

 

I don't think Szeth is likely either. Now he is finally rip of his stone, I think he'll try to avenge himself, but I do not believe he would attached himself to an evil entity again, not now he has his free-will back.

 

I have no idea where Moash is going...

 

Rayse's too smart for the champion plan to work as bait, but if he ignored the champion long enough for them to do some serious damage...

 

Adolin shanked a guy because he'd had enough of their crap.  There's definitely stuff there for Odium to work with.  Now whether such manipulation would work is an obvious RAFO.  

 

Szeth has gotten himself attached to a sword who is very enthusiastic about his job, and has just learned that his countrymen wrongly betrayed him to a lifetime of guilt and slavery.  Again, there's stuff there for Odium to work with.  (Especially with Nalan as an unwitting proxy).  

 

Odium's definitely got his pick of champions.  

Edited September 19, 2015 by Rubix
Please watch the language.

[DreamEternal]

I don't think Odium's "champion" plotline will be that straightforward. First, most people assume the supposed champion will know he is working for Odium, second, they assume it will be an actual duel of champions.

Now, lets look at another battle between shards using mortal minions:

Mistborn Spoilers:

One could make a case for Kelsier being Ruin's champion. His quest was the destruction of the Final Empire by any means necessary, and Ruin granted him the knowledge to do so in the form of Malatium. Had the Empire not fallen, Ruin would remain imprisioned for more one thousand and twenty eight years and TLR would have more time to set up back up plans and find a sucessor for when he exceded the time limit of his Atium imortality.

Of course, Kelsier also helped put Preservation's plan into motion. Leras was very good at plotting.

Possible candidates for Odium's service don't need to be hateful, powerful in combat or willing to serve. They only need to be useful and vulnerable to manipulation. Graves would be a horrible champion, being a small fish just throw into the ocean. Adolin could be useful, if Odium somehow made he think he was protecting his family. Kaladin, had he not reforged his bond with Syl by seeing the error in his ways, would be an optimal candidate. Dalinar is too rigid to be corrupted directly, but if Odium somehow forces him deeper into the path of a tyrant he could divide what he seeks to unite. Shallan has been shown as quick to emotionaly jumping to conclusions while also being capable of ruthless efficacy in her "coldness of clarity".

Honestly, anyone important enough to be a main character is important enough to be Odium's champion

Edited September 16, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Tri]

What ever happened to the stone Gavilar gave to Szeth? He could have been setting himself up to be Odiums unknowing champion. With that in mind, I like the idea of Elhokar being setup for that.

 

He's got this hole self brooding mentality and paranoid fear that his Uncle is setting himself up to be King. Now that Dalinar is the impromptu Radiant leader as a Bondsmith, we probably will see Elhokar's paranoia take a hold of him even more. He'll strive for that power to confirm himself as the actual king, which maybe that black stone is Odium's way of making his own "radiant." At that point in time, we have Odium's champion being the King, which will be a huge hit against Dalinar as his love for his nephew is great.

 

But, this is all too predictable so probably won't happen.

 

All just a tangent.

[Colateralwar]

What ever happened to the stone Gavilar gave to Szeth? He could have been setting himself up to be Odiums unknowing champion. With that in mind, I like the idea of Elhokar being setup for that.

 

He's got this hole self brooding mentality and paranoid fear that his Uncle is setting himself up to be King. Now that Dalinar is the impromptu Radiant leader as a Bondsmith, we probably will see Elhokar's paranoia take a hold of him even more. He'll strive for that power to confirm himself as the actual king, which maybe that black stone is Odium's way of making his own "radiant." At that point in time, we have Odium's champion being the King, which will be a huge hit against Dalinar as his love for his nephew is great.

 

But, this is all too predictable so probably won't happen.

 

All just a tangent.

 

I've been wondering when that stone is going to come back into play. It seems to me to be something like Voidlight. I think that just as the Highstorms fill gemstones with Stormlight, the Everstorm will fill them with this new kind of power. What exactly its going to do, and how it might play into the Voidbringers powers are another matter. But I am interested to see where it shows up again and how it comes into play. 

[maxal she/her]

Stormlight 3 Spoilers:

With it being during the weeping, Hearthstone will have hardly any infused spheres, so he will only be able to recharge himself when he is brought face-to-face with Roshone. At which point, he steals their Stormlight, does a bit of glowing, and leads the survivors out of Hearthstone to Kholinar.

 

That's exactly what I mean by "too predictable". We all expect exactly this to happen, we expect Kaladin to save Heartstone and to lead the survivors to Kholinar... Why would they go to Kholinar? They are part of the Sadeas's princedom, not the Kholin one. Why would the people want to move into another princedom? We may know Sadeas is a piece of scum, but back in Heartstone, people probably have a different opinion: just look at how Kaladin used to view Amaram, with awe. 

 

I thus yearn for a different plot line.

 

 

Adolin shanked a guy because he'd had enough of their crem dung.  There's definitely stuff there for Odium to work with.  Now whether such manipulation would work is an obvious RAFO.  

 

OK.

 

Shallan killed her parents. While she may have admittedly be right about killing her father, she did not have to strangle her father with the chain he gave her while signing a creepy lullaby...

 

Jasnah slaughtered thugs, worst she seek the out with the intent purpose to kill then, she never challenged them for their wrongs, she never gave them the opportunity of a second chance even more terrible she still killed them as they flee... 

 

Dalinar has killed we don't know how many innocents, but we have enough quotes to believe he was a bloodthirsty warlord. 

 

Elhokar is responsible for the death of countless of his subjects through seer incompetence and never once made amends for it.

 

Adolin killed a man who admitted he would never stopped trying to undermine his father and would not shy out of open war if need be. Adolin has tried to deal with Sadeas through legal means and failed. He has also given the man the chance to make amends, to change his ways, but he reinforced his position. Adolin has done everything he could have done and failed. He thus "shanked" him as you say, but sincerely he is far from the only character who "shanked" someone. Even better, on a scale of one to ten in terms of good reasons to "shank" someone, Adolin ranks much higher than most other so-called Radiants.

 

I just don't get the recurrent talk about Adolin going to Odium simply because he killed Sadeas... Sure he was an emotional nut job at the time, but he is an emotionally driven person. He needed anger to prompt him to break every single rule his father placed on him, however simply because it was anger, too many people associate it with Odium... 

 

Adolin loves his family. He would never take arms against them. He'd ram his own Blade into his own guts before he raise hand against those he loves.

 

 

Possible candidates for Odium's service don't need to be hateful, powerful in combat or willing to serve. They only need to be useful and vulnerable to manipulation. Graves would be a horrible champion, being a small fish just throw into the ocean. Adolin could be useful, if Odium somehow made he think he was protecting his family. Kaladin, had he not reforged his bond with Syl by seeing the error in his ways, would be an optimal candidate. Dalinar is too rigid to be corrupted directly, but if Odium somehow forces him deeper into the path of a tyrant he could divide what he seeks to unite. Shallan has been shown as quick to emotionaly jumping to conclusions while also being capable of ruthless efficacy in her "coldness of clarity".

Honestly, anyone important enough to be a main character is important enough to be Odium's champion

 

I tend to agree with this. Adolin is the only person Dalinar actually listens to and, more importantly, the only person capable of changing his mind. He could be manipulated into trying to manipulate his father, but it would be an emotional war, not one fought with arms. Odium would then lose the opportunity to use his pond as a military asset. Adolin's use would be greatly reduced as I cannot see how he could be manipulate into harming his loved ones.

 

Elhokar is more likely. He is the king. He is useful. He has private access to Dalinar, even better, Dalinar has a very soft spot for him. He also is very vulnerable in his desire to achieve fame/good kingship/competence/power/respect. By offering him want he seeks, Odium could manipulate Elhokar. He is the easiest choice.

 

 

 

But, this is all too predictable so probably won't happen.

 

Actually, it is not so predictable. The larger part of the fandom expects Elhokar to become a Radiant due to the sprens he sees in the mirror. Most people expect Elhokar to redeem himself, so I would not say it is entirely predictable.

Edited September 17, 2015 by WeiryWriter

[DreamEternal]

@Maxal: Adolin wouldn't need to be forced into harming his loved ones, only into harming those he sees as threaths against them, as long as it weakens humanity in the long term. Remember, the journey is hate and the destination is damnation, but it doens't matter who is the one being hated or why. And if Adolin starts seeing others like he saw Sadeas...

Elhokar... If he screws up too badly, Dalinar will just force him to follow his orders until things are fixed. The most he could do for Odium, assuming he does not simply start having people assassinated, is forcing Dalinar to decide to depose him and take the throne, wich turns back to Dalinar as an indirect champion.

Edited September 17, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[mirahound she/her]

Shallan killed her parents. While she may have admittedly be right about killing her father, she did not have to strangle her father with the chain he gave her while signing a creepy lullaby...

 

Jasnah slaughtered thugs, worst she seek the out with the intent purpose to kill then, she never challenged them for their wrongs, she never gave them the opportunity of a second chance even more terrible she still killed them as they flee... 

 

Dalinar has killed we don't know how many innocents, but we have enough quotes to believe he was a bloodthirsty warlord. 

 

Elhokar is responsible for the death of countless of his subjects through seer incompetence and never once made amends for it.

 

Adolin killed a man who admitted he would never stopped trying to undermine his father and would not shy out of open war if need be. Adolin has tried to deal with Sadeas through legal means and failed. He has also given the man the chance to make amends, to change his ways, but he reinforced his position. Adolin has done everything he could have done and failed. He thus "shanked" him as you say, but sincerely he is far from the only character who "shanked" someone. Even better, on a scale of one to ten in terms of good reasons to "shank" someone, Adolin ranks much higher than most other so-called Radiants.

 

I just don't get the recurrent talk about Adolin going to Odium simply because he killed Sadeas... Sure he was an emotional nut job at the time, but he is an emotionally driven person. He needed anger to prompt him to break every single rule his father placed on him, however simply because it was anger, too many people associate it with Odium... 

 

Adolin loves his family. He would never take arms against them. He'd ram his own Blade into his own guts before he raise hand against those he loves.

 

I think the difference people are seeing between Adolin and the others is that everyone else killed someone who was, at that point, a very immediate threat. Shallan's father had just murdered her stepmother and was on his way to killing her brother. And it can be argued that her strangling him was an act of self-preservation to keep him from telling everyone what she tried to do (though I will agree the lullaby was probably a very creepy bit of spite on her part). While Jasnah did go out with the intent to kill those men, she also waited until they attacked. Elhokar... is oblivious. He is a terrible, weak ruler at this point, but I'm not sure whether or not he ever actually meant any harm (as far as we know, he never got to Moash's parents because he didn't know what to do with them and just kept procrastinating. Not condoning this in any way shape or form, just pointing out the possibility). I think people consider Adolin as a potential for Odium's champion because he attacked Sadeas first, while Sadeas was doing nothing more than threatening (if he had attacked while/just after Sadeas was attempting to abandon the Kholin army, it would be a different story). In addition, during this act he completely, knowingly betrayed the moral structure his father had set up for him. While he would do anything for his family at this point, guilt does strange things to people. Who knows what he'll do with the fall-out of his actions?

 

Personally, I don't see Adolin's story arc going in this direction. While it would definitely be an interesting arc for him, I think there are too many other things being set up for him (like reawakening his Shardblade  ). However, I can definitely see why many consider this a viable theory. It makes sense in a lot of ways.

 

As far as Lirin goes, I think he'll be overjoyed to have one of his sons back. I think the joy at seeing Kal home safe will override his horror at the idea of Kal as a soldier, or even a slave, and I think that if others from Hearthstone question Kal's authority as a Radiant and a member of the Kholin army (or whatever he counts as when he's a bodyguard outside of the normal hierarchy), his father will be the first to come to his defense.

[maxal she/her]

@Maxal: Adolin wouldn't need to be forced into harming his loved ones, only into harming those he sees as threaths against them, as long as it weakens humanity in the long term. Remember, the journey is hate and the destination is damnation, but it doens't matter who is the one being hated or why. And if Adolin starts seeing others like he saw Sadeas...

Elhokar... If he screws up too badly, Dalinar will just force him to follow his orders until things are fixed. The most he could do for Odium, assuming he does not simply start having people assassinated, is forcing Dalinar to decide to depose him and take the throne, wich turns back to Dalinar as an indirect champion.

 

The problem I have with associating Adolin with hate so much is the fact he is not, deep down, a angry person. He does not hate for the sake of hating, but he does react with anger when those he loves are threatened. The sole reasons he kept on seeing Sadeas is such a hateful way was because he kept on attacking his father. He wanted to do something about it, but was prevented to by Dalinar himself. Anger is the emotion Adolin channels each time he is confronted by an unexpected situation for which he sees a potential course of action, but can't act for reason pertaining to legal or honor issues. 

 

Hate is not the journey when it comes to Adolin because underneath the anger, there is quite a bit of love. Without his love, there would be not anger.

 

Elhokar is the king. Technically, Dalinar can't make him obey his orders unless he is willing to depose him. However, deposing Elhokar would put Dalinar back on the track of tyranny while causing a serious rift within the Highprince. Besides, after spending so much time trying to defend Elhokar's authority, Dalinar would be ill at ease to push him aside now. We must also keep in mind how Dalinar wears blind googles when it comes to Elhokar, ignoring his weaknesses and seeing him for more than he is. The ploy could work and Elhokar does have the right persona.

 

 

I think the difference people are seeing between Adolin and the others is that everyone else killed someone who was, at that point, a very immediate threat. Shallan's father had just murdered her stepmother and was on his way to killing her brother. And it can be argued that her strangling him was an act of self-preservation to keep him from telling everyone what she tried to do (though I will agree the lullaby was probably a very creepy bit of spite on her part). While Jasnah did go out with the intent to kill those men, she also waited until they attacked. Elhokar... is oblivious. He is a terrible, weak ruler at this point, but I'm not sure whether or not he ever actually meant any harm (as far as we know, he never got to Moash's parents because he didn't know what to do with them and just kept procrastinating. Not condoning this in any way shape or form, just pointing out the possibility). I think people consider Adolin as a potential for Odium's champion because he attacked Sadeas first, while Sadeas was doing nothing more than threatening (if he had attacked while/just after Sadeas was attempting to abandon the Kholin army, it would be a different story). In addition, during this act he completely, knowingly betrayed the moral structure his father had set up for him. While he would do anything for his family at this point, guilt does strange things to people. Who knows what he'll do with the fall-out of his actions?

 

Seriously, Jasnah purposefully seek to meet those thugs, she provoked them, she put herself into a position of weakness just so she could justify slaying them with the sole intent to teach a lesson. Her actions have been highlighted by Brandon himself as being much worst on the scale of morality than Adolin and much darker. I thus disagree Jasnah had good reasons: she created those reasons. 

 

Elhokar is not only responsible for Moash's parents death, he is also responsible for the death of 50 good soldiers during the chasmfiend hunt which only happened so he could have an excuse to call himself a leader. These are the only book examples we have been given: we get extrapolate there may have been others.

 

Sadeas was not doing nothing, he was launching a near open war threats. Adolin had the chance to walk away and take the chance with the future or do something, now. We know Sadeas would have carried on, we know he would have kept on plotting, we know he still had allies and we know he would have create havoc. There would have been causalities. There would have been death. There would have been consequences and Adolin was fully aware of this, worst he just had he confirmation his worst fears were about to become true. How could acting now suddenly make him a recipient for Odium? As for disobeying Dalinar's moral structure, I disagree. It is not Dalinar's moral structure, but Dalinar's honor structure. Dalinar does not care about morality, he does not care if a course of action is morality right or not: he cares if it is deemed honorable by the Way of Kings.

 

Who knows what he'll do? I agree, we don't, but I sincerely doubt it would involve him going evil, but I do see him becoming very misguided and confused as to what he should do and what he should not do. He could probably be manipulated for darker hands as gets more and more vulnerable, but I don't see him turning into the champion of hate. 

[Landis963 he/him]

We keep saying "recipient for Odium" as though he's going to suddenly stick a spike in them and puppet them around, like Ruin did with his champion, and I don't buy that.  The level of hate one has shouldn't matter to Odium - in fact, more raw hate might be less useful, especially if it gets in the way of their utility as a manipulated pawn.  Take Dilaf, for example - his raw, all-abiding hate for Elantrians, not to mention his sadism and callous disregard for his underlings, would have made him a terrible pawn of Odium's.  Unless of course a bludgeon was the right tool for the job, and even then he would be manipulated into a lethal trap the moment he became more trouble than he was worth.  And unlike Hrathen, Odium would have no qualms about doing so.  

[DreamEternal]

We keep saying "recipient for Odium" as though he's going to suddenly stick a spike in them and puppet them around, like Ruin did with his champion, and I don't buy that. The level of hate one has shouldn't matter to Odium - in fact, more raw hate might be less useful, especially if it gets in the way of their utility as a manipulated pawn.

That is what I mean. Odium doens't need to have someone hateful. As far as we know, he only needs someone vulnerable who is prone to act on negative emotions. If we look at Lin Davar, and possibly Elhokar, we can see that he just can inject hate into people, or amplify their hate.

What I said about the journey being hate was meant to apply to how Odium uses his champion, not why the poor, miserable champion fell so far. Love, of all things, can inspire great hatred, if it is resticted to only a few or broken by loss.

Not that I think Adolin will be Odium's champion. Or that ge will go evil. Just pointing out it is possible.

Actualy, I think Odium's champion will be the one who will defeat him by pulling a Marsh moment at the right time .

Edited September 17, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern