Shallan Memory - Surge Connection??

[hoser]

I wasn't there for that part, so I am not sure if light is the canonical name, but I think the surges are loosely based around the ideas of physical forces.  So light would make sense as an interpretation of electromagnetism.  I wonder if knights with that surge can Zeus it up with some spicy lightning bolts?

[Gloom]

I would say that different spren use different methods to select whom they bond with. Sylphrena didn't appear to need a committee to choose Kaladin. She didn't even have any memories until she chose him. The Cryptics are another kind of spren, and while they appear to associate with each other to some degree and retain a strong grasp on the cognitive, we don't know they are as democratic as the spren type that Lift bonded to. So I wouldn't say we know that they give especial consideration to those who have visited the Nightwatcher. I also don't know when Shallan could have found the time in her cloistered life to go on a pilgrimage to the Nightwatcher.

[Morsk]

I think her mother visited the Nightwatcher during her pregnancy, and ended up with a boon for Shallan and a curse for herself. I agree that Shallan is too innocent and inexperienced leaving her home for someone who visited the Nightwatcher.

My big problem with it being a Radiant ability is that Shallan is comfortable with it and takes it for granted. She never even credits her artistic talent to the power, instead thinking she learned it from books. If it were a Radiant thing, wouldn't it only have showed up in the last year?

[Bloodfalcon]

I think that's a cool theory Morsk.

[The Count]

I think her mother visited the Nightwatcher during her pregnancy, and ended up with a boon for Shallan and a curse for herself. I agree that Shallan is too innocent and inexperienced leaving her home for someone who visited the Nightwatcher.

My big problem with it being a Radiant ability is that Shallan is comfortable with it and takes it for granted. She never even credits her artistic talent to the power, instead thinking she learned it from books. If it were a Radiant thing, wouldn't it only have showed up in the last year?

 

I don't know, we already have some instances of surgebinders visiting the Old Magic and if we get another one then it starts to seem a bit too much...

 

Not saying it isn't, but I remain to be convinced.

Edited October 16, 2013 by MadRand

[Looter]

Yeah I am voting with madrand on this. Coincidences kinda suck as plot points.

[Bloodfalcon]

Considering a popular theory here is that the Nightwatcher is basically Cultivation, I don't see how it becomes coincidence when people who interact with the Nightwatcher gain abilities. Remember, we are talking about magic powers here that are directly associated with the Gods on this planet.

[Looter]

/>Considering a popular theory here is that the Nightwatcher is basically Cultivation, I don't see how it becomes coincidence when people who interact with the Nightwatcher gain abilities. Remember, we are talking about magic powers here that are directly associated with the Gods on this planet.

The coincidence would be that all these awesome people who could be radiants just because they are awesome all actually only can be capable because the nightwatcher made them so. It changes them into tools for the nightwatcher. And still it would be a plot of coincidence and convenience which would be lame.

[Bloodfalcon]

The coincidence would be that all these awesome people who could be radiants just because they are awesome all actually only can be capable because the nightwatcher made them so. It changes them into tools for the nightwatcher. And still it would be a plot of coincidence and convenience which would be lame.

I have a hard time agreeing that in a story that has any plot at all, it is more entertaining that "awesome people" just randomly become powerful than it is for certain people to be chosen by evaluation of a God to take up the mantle of protector of the people. In Mistborn they were chosen and guided to certain fates, and it has been stated that Vin was really not chosen for any unique reason as much as it just working out. Stormlight Archive so far does not establish that all of these people were awesome before anything, so right now you are making a fairly large assumption to fuel your assumptions. (The latter assumptions being that they would necessarily be "tools" for the Nightwatcher, and that that in itself wouldn't be "awesome")

[Looter]

/>

I have a hard time agreeing that in a story that has any plot at all, it is more entertaining that "awesome people" just randomly become powerful than it is for certain people to be chosen by evaluation of a God to take up the mantle of protector of the people. In Mistborn they were chosen and guided to certain fates, and it has been stated that Vin was really not chosen for any unique reason as much as it just working out. Stormlight Archive so far does not establish that all of these people were awesome before anything, so right now you are making a fairly large assumption to fuel your assumptions. (The latter assumptions being that they would necessarily be "tools" for the Nightwatcher, and that that in itself wouldn't be "awesome")

Actually they apparently were all chosen for awesomeness, Dalinar was the Blackthorn whom in nearly every way was eclipsed by his elder brother whom he helped conquer alethkar and was overcoming his guilt to be just about the last truly honorable highprince in that nation before he started to receive his visions.

Kaladin was a gifted surgeons apprentice before he volunteered to go with his beloved younger brother to war to protect him and ultimately failing in a devastating way that truly forged him into the man he has become.

Shallen was a pampered daughter of a nobleman whom was seemingly a step away from the throne, until he was killed, by his pampered daughter who then took his shardblade and shortly left to save her family from debts her father had accrued. Her plan? Steal one of the most valuable artifacts in the world from one of the most power and smart people in the world. She succeeded.

All these people are awesome before we see them get their magic powers. In a world of dead gods, false and broken saviors, and all encompassing magic forces to have these people be chosen for these very aspects of who they are to lead, as the fight for their world comes quietly to the forefront.

If this is all the nightwatcher then this is a lame version of accrual but instead of one champion that seemed to have had power from a young age and being fought over by both gods. Instead we have them spammed out and abandonded in such a way only Dalinar even mentions it.

This is early into a series and have thousands of years of back story to tell to get to a point where we have better knowledge of the goes and why's. I still believe that the nightwatcher as the reason they have their powers just turns them into convenient tools instead of the heroes they are.

[The Count]

Actually they apparently were all chosen for awesomeness, Dalinar was the Blackthorn whom in nearly every way was eclipsed by his elder brother whom he helped conquer alethkar and was overcoming his guilt to be just about the last truly honorable highprince in that nation before he started to receive his visions.

Kaladin was a gifted surgeons apprentice before he volunteered to go with his beloved younger brother to war to protect him and ultimately failing in a devastating way that truly forged him into the man he has become.

Shallen was a pampered daughter of a nobleman whom was seemingly a step away from the throne, until he was killed, by his pampered daughter who then took his shardblade and shortly left to save her family from debts her father had accrued. Her plan? Steal one of the most valuable artifacts in the world from one of the most power and smart people in the world. She succeeded.

All these people are awesome before we see them get their magic powers. In a world of dead gods, false and broken saviors, and all encompassing magic forces to have these people be chosen for these very aspects of who they are to lead, as the fight for their world comes quietly to the forefront.

If this is all the nightwatcher then this is a lame version of accrual but instead of one champion that seemed to have had power from a young age and being fought over by both gods. Instead we have them spammed out and abandonded in such a way only Dalinar even mentions it.

This is early into a series and have thousands of years of back story to tell to get to a point where we have better knowledge of the goes and why's. I still believe that the nightwatcher as the reason they have their powers just turns them into convenient tools instead of the heroes they are.

 

What he said...

[Bloodfalcon]

Actually they apparently were all chosen for awesomeness, Dalinar was the Blackthorn whom in nearly every way was eclipsed by his elder brother whom he helped conquer alethkar and was overcoming his guilt to be just about the last truly honorable highprince in that nation before he started to receive his visions.

Kaladin was a gifted surgeons apprentice before he volunteered to go with his beloved younger brother to war to protect him and ultimately failing in a devastating way that truly forged him into the man he has become.

Shallen was a pampered daughter of a nobleman whom was seemingly a step away from the throne, until he was killed, by his pampered daughter who then took his shardblade and shortly left to save her family from debts her father had accrued. Her plan? Steal one of the most valuable artifacts in the world from one of the most power and smart people in the world. She succeeded.

All these people are awesome before we see them get their magic powers. In a world of dead gods, false and broken saviors, and all encompassing magic forces to have these people be chosen for these very aspects of who they are to lead, as the fight for their world comes quietly to the forefront.

If this is all the nightwatcher then this is a lame version of accrual but instead of one champion that seemed to have had power from a young age and being fought over by both gods. Instead we have them spammed out and abandonded in such a way only Dalinar even mentions it.

This is early into a series and have thousands of years of back story to tell to get to a point where we have better knowledge of the goes and why's. I still believe that the nightwatcher as the reason they have their powers just turns them into convenient tools instead of the heroes they are.

I don't think I worded what I was saying correctly before. My point was that all of these scenarios are not necessarily "before" they are chosen. You are looking at it in an assumed context from the start when it could easily be a matter of perspective. For example: Shallan did all those awesome things, but if Morsk's theory is correct, Shallan would already have been considered by the Nightwatcher. Who is to say which caused the powers when that event precedes all of her accomplishments. 

Also, you described a pampered murderer as being naturally awesome, and the a surgeons apprentice as well. I too think they are awesome, but I don't think those descriptions have would play a roll in the universe considering them candidates for powers. Also, I'm not trying ot convince you of anything really, other than to be open to the possibility of other theories than your own being entertaining. I like these forums a lot, but there is a tendency for users on here to theorize themselves into a state that refuses to consider other options. I don't care about Morsk's feelings so much as I care about those people not being disappointed when their assumptions are incorrect, and they have a sour view of the story because it is something they previously considered "lame".

[Gloom]

Well, a lot of people have visited the Night Watcher. Sure, we're talking about a relative few in regards to the population of the world, but plenty of people in regards to picking future Surgebinders. Cultivation can see the future better than Honor could, so her marking an unborn child isn't that huge of a stretch, but I don't think Shallan would have been marked for greatness, so much as she would have been watched for it. Even Shards have less than perfect precognition. Shallan could have strayed far a field from the future that was glimpsed for her had things worked out differently.

 

So while I will grant that the Night Watcher may be involved in choosing who receives a bond either directly, or indirectly, I will only grant that this is so for those spren that are closest to Cultivation. I don't believe that Cultivation has any influence at all on spren like Sylphrena. How can you influence something that has no memory? Additionally, it's unlikely that Kaladin or his parents went to visit the Night Watcher. I believe that Honorspren are outside of Cultivations influence. They will choose for themselves who they wish to bond with.

 

Cultivations influence on those bonding spren that fall within her sphere of influence does make sense though. It's too much of a coincidence that so many of the main characters, of whom many are related, have acquired or are in the process of acquiring spren bonds.

 

I don't believe that Cultivation has been directly responsible for Dalinars visions, or should he begin attaining a spren, his bond. Dalinar is firmly in Honors camp. I will grant that Cultivations tampering may have made Dalinar easier for Tanavasts Ghost to locate.

[Bloodfalcon]

I agree, Gloom.

Although, there are theories that this entire process is done through considerable teamwork by Honor and Cultivation. In addition, I don't think there is anything crazy in the theory that those family bonds could be a huge factor in this. Consider Mistborn, Elantris, and Warbreaker all having bloodlines be tied to magic systems. And they don't necessarily have to be of the same Order either, as evidenced by Shallash being the daughter of Jezrien. 

Jeez, there is just so much we don't know. Can't wait for WoR.

[Gloom]

Honor is splintered, so while it's possible that some splinters or slivers of Honor are working with Cultivation, I doubt they have enough power to influence Honorspren. Any combined efforts by Cultivation and Honor ended upon the Splintering. I'll grant that Cultivation and Honor may have added to the spren native to Roshar in a combined effort before the splintering, but that doesn't mean that Cultivation has any sway over those spren who are mostly of Honor, or any new Honorspren that were created as a result of the shattering.

 

We have WoB that investiture on Roshar is NOT hereditary. That being said, those spren most closely related to Cultivation appear to travel in groups. They appear to be mostly of the cognitive realm and appear to be capable of remembering and socializing amongst themselves. This may lead them to choose people who are associated with each other, people who hold important positions that are aligned with their goals or people who may be influenced to align with their goals. As Nohadon said, Not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren. This could just as easily explain why many of the major characters who are related appear to be developing Nahel bonds as genetics would, while not conflicting with the authors word.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Gloom

[Natans]

I have a classic opinion about this.

 

To me is basically like Sly said. The sprens, in a rough way, are atracked by certain virtues and when they find someone that REALLY live they lives by this virtues they make a bond (nahel bond) with this person, that ultimately give that person a specific surgebind power.

 

In a cosmere aproach I would think that when the spren bond with a person they turn in a kind of escape valve/hack of the cognitive realm. The spren make possible to a person have acess to certain forces(surges), in a similar way that a Elantrian(and only a Elantrian) have acess to the investidure of their world when them draw Aon to create a certain effect.

 

Think in this way, a spren is like a len(focus) that when a person cast a light(investidude-stormlight) create a specific spectrum of light (effect-surge).

 

In Elantris something similar occur, but the difference is that there the raw investidure(energy) is all trapped inside of the cognitive world and in roshar the investidure naturally leaks in what is known was highstorm.

 

And in Elantris what make possible a person able to acess this power is the reod. In Roshar is the nahel bond with a spren.

 

Two very similar magic sytem =)

 

PS: Another thing to meis that the highstorm are in reality a BIG HOLE in the phisical world thar leaks the investidure present in the cognitive world diretcly in form of energy in Roshar. Together with this hole come the sprens "cognitive being" that are kind of sucked in the phisical world.

 

What made this hole, Honor death. Before him die only a small part of investidure that are used by him and cultivation existed(fewer spren existed), after him the things gonna KABUM =)

Edited October 17, 2013 by Natans

[Bloodfalcon]

Honor is splintered, so while it's possible that some splinters or slivers of Honor are working with Cultivation, I doubt they have enough power to influence Honorspren. Any combined efforts by Cultivation and Honor ended upon the Splintering. I'll grant that Cultivation and Honor may have added to the spren native to Roshar in a combined effort before the splintering, but that doesn't mean that Cultivation has any sway over those spren who are mostly of Honor, or any new Honorspren that were created as a result of the shattering.

 

We have WoB that investiture on Roshar is NOT hereditary. That being said, those spren most closely related to Cultivation appear to travel in groups. They appear to be mostly of the cognitive realm and appear to be capable of remembering and socializing amongst themselves. This may lead them to choose people who are associated with each other, people who hold important positions that are aligned with their goals or people who may be influenced to align with their goals. As Nohadon said, Not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren. This could just as easily explain why many of the major characters who are related appear to be developing Nahel bonds as genetics would, while not conflicting with the authors word.

Like. Upvote.

[11thorderknight]

Regarding Investiture not being hereditary - the United States presidency is not a hereditary office, yet in our relatively short history we've had two instances of father/son presidents, one instance of cousins, and came fairly close (and may yet get there) of a husband/wife pair.

 

A person has to develop the attributes for the Nahel bond on their own, but on a medieval world, relatively few people have the opportunity to spend much time developing such attributes. The average person is fairly tied up with subsistence farming and hiding from highstorms.

[Gloom]

I have no doubt that we will see Surgebinders from all walks of life before very long. It makes sense that those spren who can remember and think independently are figuring out that they will have a greater chance of quickly re-establishing themselves if they make a power block in a noble house. I believe that is what is happening with House Kholin. The King is seeing cryptics, his sister may have already bonded to a cryptic, his sisters ward has bonded with a cryptic. This looks like a power play by the cryptics to establish themselves in a noble house. I would hardly find it surprising should Navani start seeing cryptics as well. I believe that Dalinar would also be chosen by a cryptic eventually were it not for the fact that his current investiture would almost certainly interfere.

 

I believe Sylphrena has led us to under estimate bonding spren as a whole. I am beginning to believe that cryptics are a very cunning type of spren.

 

This is what I believe they are doing.

 

We know that Ardents have told the world that the Knights Radiant became corrupt and betrayed mankind. I won't get into who was responsible for this, but there are several places in TWoKs that ardents are either reported to have said this, or said this in person. There is also a reason to suspect that Surgebinders are being killed before they can get very far along in their ideals. So the cryptics make a plan. The choose the kings sister, which works for them because she is a good candidate for a bond, and let her reach a point in her bond where they feel she can defend herself adequately. Once she has reached that point, another cryptic starts the processes of bonding to the King of Alethkar, Jasnahs brother. This should, theoretically, give Elhokar a better chance of attaining a strong bond with his spren before someone manages to assassinate him if Jasnah teaches him what she knows. By making the King of Alethkar a Surgebinder, the crytics are raising the stakes. Now should Elhokar succeed in surviving to the point where he is a competent Surgebinder those who are trying to keep the KR from rising again will be forced to take greater risks in order to remove him, or to show their hand and denounce him.

[11thorderknight]

Umm.....I think WoK made it pretty clear that Jasnah's bond is NOT to a Cryptic. That being said, we know by WoB that "honorspren" is a loose and somewhat ill-defined category, and that there is some method to the madness of who gets bonded. 

 

The big mystery at this point, in my opinion, is this: are the Cryptics simply the specific spren that bond to Lightweavers? Or, are they a class of spren that exist in parallel to honorspren and grant bonds to surgebinders or any order (in which case, the order is determined by the bondee's Ideals/personality etc)? If the latter is the case, do those surgebinders who bond Cryptics still qualify as Radiants, or are they on the road to something else?

Edited October 19, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[Shardlet]

I agree, Jasnah's reaction to Shallan's Cryptic drawing strongly suggest to me that Jasnah has not personally seen one.  I interpret Jasnah's reaction as her initially thinking that Shallan's power set was the same as her own and being momentarily confused by the cryptic because it did not fit her initial expectation.

[Gloom]

This doesn't change much. Elhokar is still seeing a cryptic, and a cryptic has chosen Shallan. I would find it hard to believe that the cryptics aren't aware of Jasnah having a Nahel bond. It does mean this isn't a long ranging plan they've concocted, but it doesn't mean they aren't taking advantage of an opportunity to advance their cause.

[gjustice99]

I started a separate thread about this same thing not realizing that this was here and so I guess I'll post my theory about this here. My theory is that Shallan's memory taking and artistic ability comes from Cultivation because of this quote from TWOK:

 

 

 

When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page.

 

I really don't think it is a coincidence that Brandon specifically used the word cultivation to describe this. I think it was to hint that her skill has to do with Cultivation.

Edited November 25, 2014 by gjustice99

[dvoraen]

My personal take on it is this:

 

- The Nahel bond emulates both the Honorblades and -- this is my pet theory -- any special abilities that Cultivation (likely) gave to the Heralds*.  In other words, the spren are duplicating both traits.  For Lightweavers, it's "ocular mnemonics".  I'll wager that Shalash has the exact same Memory-taking ability, and possibly more (but it still sources in the eyes).  I think Lightweavers also have a more instinctual ability to perceive someone's Cognitive blueprint, if you will, and can manipulate that on a subliminal level, via their artistic sense and Illumination.  Words of Radiance (both in-world and our book) corroborate the idea.

 

 

* I say likely because the man claiming to be Nale/Nalan'Elin is seriously giving me a 'modified'/'augmented'/'talented' vibe in how he detects something with both Lift and Jasnah.  The man claiming to be Taln (assuming he is, for the moment) could very well have been given extensive physical talents, like being a massive dude with crazy agility.