Shallan Memory - Surge Connection??

[The Count]

Ok so following on from the totally awesome new information we got for the KR chart I have made a few connections....

 

Shallash is Herald of the Lightweavers

Shallash is destroying statues of herself (particularly the eyes!!)

Shallan is a Lightweaver

Shallan has perfect memory / artistic ability beyond 'normal'

Lightweavers have 'Light' and 'Transformation'

Eyes are all about the perception of light by humans

Eyes are the 'window to the soul'

 

Memory - Drawing - Eyes - Light - Lightweaving

 

I can't help but think there is a connection here, it is too perfect!

 

IIRC, WoB said that Shallan's memory / drawing is not a Surge power, but also has a magical aspect to it...

Edited October 15, 2013 by MadRand

[cem]

Personally, I think all Orders have a passive ability. Kaladin and Szeth don't need to breath while holding stormlight. We haven't seen that in members of other Orders, though we saw very little up to this point.

[skaa]

Ok so following on from the totally awesome new information we got for the KR chart I have made a few connections....

 

Shallash is Herald of the Lightweavers

Shallash is destroying statues of herself (particularly the eyes!!)

Shallan is a Lightweaver

Shallan has perfect memory / artistic ability beyond 'normal'

Lightweavers have 'Light' and 'Transformation'

Eyes are all about the perception of light by humans

Eyes are the 'window to the soul'

 

Memory - Drawing - Eyes - Light - Lightweaving

 

I can't help but think there is a connection here, it is too perfect!

 

IIRC, WoB said that Shallan's memory / drawing is not a Surge power, but also has a magical aspect to it...

 

 

Hi MadRand. Would you mind providing a link to the source of that WoB? Anyway, the eyes are one of the ten Body Focuses associated with the Essences. I've always thought that the Body Focuses were integral to how humans access Investiture on Roshar, and we see Shallan deliberately blinking her eyes when taking her Memories, so I think she's actually performing a Body Focus-based Investiture when doing that.

 

Personally, I think all Orders have a passive ability. Kaladin and Szeth don't need to breath while holding stormlight. We haven't seen that in members of other Orders, though we saw very little up to this point.

 

I've theorized before that each Surgebinder has access to the abilities of two Orders, even if they can only join one Order. I'm not even talking about Orders that share the same Surge... For example, Kaladin can heal his wounds, which based on the table of the Essences is likely an ability of the Edgedancers (Vev Order/Lucentia), even though we see him Windrunning (Jes Order/Zephyr) most of the time, and those two Orders do not share Surges. So Kaladin has access to both Zephyr and Lucentia powers. If my theory is correct, Shallan probably has access to an additional Essence aside from Blood, and perhaps that's where her Memory ability comes from.

 

Edit: Found something in the Interlude-That-Must-Not-Be-Discussed that contradicts my theory. Oh well.

Edited October 15, 2013 by skaa

[The Count]

Hi MadRand. Would you mind providing a link to the source of that WoB? Anyway, the eyes are one of the ten Body Focuses associated with the Essences. I've always thought that the Body Focuses were integral to how humans access Investiture on Roshar, and we see Shallan deliberately blinking her eyes when taking her Memories, so I think she's actually performing a Body Focus-based Investiture when doing that.

 

From the Portland Steelheart signing in the link below:

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4273-portland-steelheart-signing/

 

Q: Are Shallan's "memories" a form of surgebinding?

A: Good question! Shallan has something besides pure physiology aiding her when taking a memory. (some magic is involved, but would not say yes or no to surgebinging in particular)

 

So I may have misinterpreted a little. It still could be a Light Surge power.

Edited October 15, 2013 by MadRand

[Argent]

Moreover, @skaa, I am fairly confident Kaladin's healing is just a result of him holding stormlight.

[The Count]

Personally, I think all Orders have a passive ability. Kaladin and Szeth don't need to breath while holding stormlight. We haven't seen that in members of other Orders, though we saw very little up to this point.

 

Don't forget also that the body focus relating to Jezrien is Inhalation and the essence is Zephyr.

 

I always assumed that the breath holding / stormlight inhaling for windrunners was linked to this.

 

I knw we have not really seen many other orders use Stormlight (only windrunners and Soulcasters) but I am willing to bet that no other order has to inhale the stormlight and hold their breath to keep it in.

 

I am also willing to lay odds on that full KR Windrunners do not even need to hold their breath to retain stormlight... that is all speculation though.

[Scott]

I knw we have not really seen many other orders use Stormlight (only windrunners and Soulcasters) but I am willing to bet that no other order has to inhale the stormlight and hold their breath to keep it in.

 

Would that mean other KR orders need to rely on gems for their stormlight?  Maybe this is why all of the Shardplates have slots for gems inside, because the other orders would need to have a ready supply close to hand.

[cem]

Would that mean other KR orders need to rely on gems for their stormlight?  Maybe this is why all of the Shardplates have slots for gems inside, because the other orders would need to have a ready supply close to hand.

Not really. It just means they would have a different way of absorbing and holding stormlight. Windrunners do it by inhaling it and holding their breath. But the others don't seem to do it the same way. Shallan or Ym certainly didn't breath anything in.

[Scott]

Shallan and Ym used the stormlight from Spheres that they were holding directly.  I don't remember what happens when Shallan soulcasts the goblet, but when she enters Shadesmar beside Jasnah she's holding a dim garnet.  Here's the part where Ym heals:

 

“Nothing,” Ym replied, reaching into the drawer of his table. The light spilling out was just from five diamond chips. Every urchin who had come to him had seen those and so far, Ym had only been robbed of them twice. He took out some antiseptic in one hand and sphere in the other. The medicine wasn’t going to be enough, not with the boy unable to stay off his feet. Lying in bed for weeks to heal, constantly applying expensive medication. That was not something he could expect the boy to do.

Poor child, it must hurt something fierce. The boy should probably have been laid out in bed, feverish, but every urchin knew to chew [rich]bark to stay alert and awake longer than they should.

Nearby, the sparkling light spren peeked out from underneath the stack of leather squares. Ym applied the medication and hummed softly to himself, holding the foot. The glow on his hand vanished. The rotspren fled from the wound. When he removed his hand, the cut had scabbed over, the color returning to normal, signs of infection gone.

So far, Ym had used this ability only a handful of times and had always disguised it as medicine. It was unlike anything he’d ever heard of. Perhaps that was why he had been given it, so the Cosmere could experience it.

“Hey,” the boy said, “that feels a lot better.”

“I’m glad,” Ym said, returning the sphere and medicine to his drawer. The spren had retreated. “Let us see if I have something that fits you.”

 

 

He palms the sphere the whole time, and when he uses Regrowth the sphere goes dark.  Even Jasnah uses gems, as we see her cracking the gem in her soulcaster to remove the chunk of rock even though the soulcaster is a fake.  

 

Only Kaladin seems to be able to transfer the Stormlight to himself as an intermediate step, and benefit from it while infused.

[skaa]

So I may have misinterpreted a little. It still could be a Light Surge power.

 

Ah, yes. I read that interview last week. So, we still don't know whether or not the Memory ability is from a Surge. I'll just stick to my assumption that it is, since that seems like a simpler explanation.

 

Moreover, @skaa, I am fairly confident Kaladin's healing is just a result of him holding stormlight.

 

Maybe. Though, it kind of feels weird to think that healing is just a Stormlight side-effect. Do you have WoB on this? I'd like to think that, given what we've seen so far, the effect of holding Stormlight differs for each type of Surgebinder. Anyway, barring any evidence to the contrary, I'll hold on to the idea that Kaladin's healing is a form of Regrowth, even if he doesn't have Edgedancing's other abilities.

Edited October 15, 2013 by skaa

[Argent]

No WoB on this, no. Teft (was it Teft?), however, was not terribly surprised that Kaladin was chugging spheres' stormlight like shots after he survived the highstorm, and I don't think he (at the time) had a way of guess which order Kaladin would fall under. Because he suspected something like that was going on. Moreover, every Surgebinder we've seen seems to experience an accelerated metabolism when holding stormlight - quicker reflexes, more energy, high strength levels; accelerated healing could easily fall under that umbrella.

[cem]

Shallan and Ym used the stormlight from Spheres that they were holding directly.  I don't remember what happens when Shallan soulcasts the goblet, but when she enters Shadesmar beside Jasnah she's holding a dim garnet.  Here's the part where Ym heals:

 

 

He palms the sphere the whole time, and when he uses Regrowth the sphere goes dark.  Even Jasnah uses gems, as we see her cracking the gem in her soulcaster to remove the chunk of rock even though the soulcaster is a fake.  

 

Only Kaladin seems to be able to transfer the Stormlight to himself as an intermediate step, and benefit from it while infused.

Do you have a Steelhunt code? It is not only Windrunners that hold stormlight in them.

[Scott]

Do you have a Steelhunt code? It is not only Windrunners that hold stormlight in them.

 

I do, but I'm not sure what we can discuss, so I try to forget it for the sake of most discussion

 

That being said, the method of acquiring the stormlight is probably unique in that case, so I'm not sure we can use her as a reliable data point.  I'd look at her more as an outlier.  The "constable" seems to know a lot about orders and surges and stormlight, and he doesn't know what's happening, so I'd assume it can't be too common.

 

e: Not saying it's not possible, I think It's certainly possible that all people with bonds can learn to hold Stormlight, but I don't think we have any really compelling evidence yet.  We have little enough as it is...

Edited October 15, 2013 by Scott

[hoser]

Consider the starfalls vision.  The stoneward seems to infuse also.  We have multiple non-adjacent orders that can infuse. 

 

I do think healing is a stormlight infusion side effect, as Szeth narrates in the Gavilar assassination scene, but there is a Regrowth ability that the Stoneward uses a fabrial for that is faster and can be applied to others.

[Scott]

Guess I was getting ahead of myself  Looks like many of them have the ability, so it's reasonable to assume that all of them do.

 

I agree about the Stormlight healing.  I think Teft says (in the battle of the tower?) that Stormlight enhances things that already exist like body healing, speed, dexterity, etc.  I'll try to find the quote when I get home.

[Gloom]

I'm inclined to believe that some orders, including Wind Runners, but not exclusively Wind Runners can hold Stormlight directly, while others, like Light Weavers and the new Order from the link above, draw Stormlight directly from storage points such as gems. It seems to me that those Orders capable of holding Stormlight directly are more combat oriented based on this fact alone. I would hypothesize further that they will be the ones most inclined to front line melee while the other Orders will be more likely to take supporting roles. This isn't to say that the other Orders won't have people on the front lines in the heat of battle, but that they will be more inclined to act in supporting roles (ie: ranged attacks, medics, etc.). I could definitely see Jasnahs' Order on the front right behind the combat Orders Soulcasting Voidbringers into stone.

[11thorderknight]

Regarding Shallan's Memory - am I the only one that thinks the Nightwatcher is involved here? It's obviously a neurologic effect, and we know from Steelhunt that people who have visited the Old Magic are prime candidates for a Nahel bond. 

[Argent]

and we know from Steelhunt that people who have visited the Old Magic are prime candidates for a Nahel bond. 

 

We do?

[Shardlet]

Yeah, i didn't really pick up on that.  I can see why you might go there 11th, but I think that that is a bit of a leap at this point.

[cem]

We do?

We sort of know it can potentially be a factor. Maybe.

Edited October 15, 2013 by cem

[Argent]

We do?

[cem]

We do.

[Scott]

Potentially everything can be a factor, maybe

 

It's like saying "Save up to 15% or more!" (http://xkcd.com/870/)

[Looter]

/>Potentially everything can be a factor, maybe

It's like saying "Save up to 15% or more!" (http://xkcd.com/870/)

This is so true.

As to the nightwatcher I think Shallen has something that is based on the magic system on roshar which the nightwatcher can manipulate but is not controlled entirely by her. I think it is much like Kaladin and his spear his bond and abilities enhances and perfects, but it is not a grafted on power.

[11thorderknight]

@Shardlet - I don't want to go quoting Steelhunt text on the forum since I'm not sure whether the quoted part was included in one of Brandon's readings. Let's put it this way - one of the characters in the Lift Interlude talks about how Lift got chosen to receive her bond. He could be accused of sounding whiny when he does this....wink wink, nudge nudge.

 

It's explicitly stated that the Old Magic was a consideration.

 

Alternatively - Do we know for sure that "Light" is the canonical name for Surge 5/6? Because Lightweaving magic, at least as we've seen Hoid use it, could easily be based on something a bit more abstract, like Perception for example, which could make Memory a derivative power of this Surge. So far, we don't know of any other Radiant order that shares a name directly with one of their surges.