Herald Motivation

[The Count]

Ok, so this is a little extra speculation based on the new information that Honor was suprised by the formation of the KR and that the Heralds were a little bitter with Honor and blamed him for their situation.

 

((Note: I have not heard the reading, only seen this talked about on the boards so if I have misinterpreted, please let me know))

 

This theory makes the assumption that the KR only fought in 1 Desolation (the one that ended in the Prologue to WoK). Obviously I have no evidence of this as we do not know exactly when or how the KR were formed.

 

Basically the assumption is that Dalinar's vision of Nohadon is after the end of the desolation before the one ending in the prologue. In the intervening years, Nohadons writes his book and might (or night not) do some vajazzle with a dawnshard to bind surgebinders to oaths. Ultimately the KR are formed in time to fight in the 'final' desolation.

 

Now, my basic theory goes like this:

 

The Heralds have been dying and being tortured for uncounted generations and are quite bitter about it. They blame Honor (at least partially) for putting them in their current situation. However, generally they know their duty to mankind.

 

Then they return for the desolation and find (much to their suprise) a highly trained, fighting fit, surgebinding paramilitary group ready and willing to fight with them against the forces of darkness.

 

Suddenly the prospect looks less bleak and a crack of hope rises. They start to think that they may finally defeat the enemy.

 

IIRC Kalak comments that despite the fighting being more fierce, less of them (Heralds) died this time. I think Jezrien even argues that the KR will be sufficient in the future.

 

So I think it was (at least in part), the presence of the KR that led to them abandoning their blades.

 

It is one thing to sacrifice your soul and body to defend a nation of farmers who would otherwise be wiped out. Another to do it for a nation of farmers defended by an elite military group.

 

Maybe this is not really new, but for me the information that the Heralds were blaming Honor is really interesting. How must they feel now? Knowing that their actions probably led, ultimately, to his death / splintering!?

 

((Note, I am not saying there is a direct causal link, but I bet that is how the Heralds feel))

 

 

[hoser]

It's probably not vital to your theory, but I believe the radiants were around for more than one desolation. 

 

In the Starfalls chapter, the farmer that Dalinar inhabited expressed faith in the Radiants.  The Radiants commented on the midnight essence being desolation precurser. 

 

According to this theory, the Radiants would never have seen a desolation.  So they wouldn't have been as certain, nor would they have had a reputation. 

[Gloom]

I also believe that the Knights Radiant existed through quite a few Desolations based on the information Hoser supplied, and my own personal beliefs.

 

I also believe that the Knights Radiant did generally defer to the Heralds leadership in regards to fighting their common enemy. The Heralds had faced this enemy many times before personally, while the Knights Radiant generally would have second hand knowledge of what they were about to face. I believe that a Herald is more powerful than a Knight Radiant. If forced to contest of arms, the Herald would be likely to be victorious. An Honorblade is more powerful than a Shardblade, and a Herald has centuries worth of fighting experience to draw upon.

 

Your supposition that the existence of the Knights Radiant made the decision the Heralds made more palatable to the majority of Heralds still holds true regardless of how many times they fought together. In fact the longer the Knights Radiant existed, the easier their defection would have been to justify. This wasn't a fluke occurrence, this was a solid group of warriors dedicated to maintaining their readiness through the centuries of peace until they were called upon once more to face the darkness. The more Desolations that the Knights Radiant were waiting for the Heralds arrival, the more permanent a fixture they would become, and the more comfortable the heralds would be that when the next Desolation arrived, the Knights Radiant would be ready.

[The Count]

Thos eare good points Gloom.

 

In fact, you are right about the consistency of KR being a factor.

 

Each Desolation that the KR were present would make it more likely that the Heralds could justify their leaving.

 

I keept trying to imagine the state of mind of the Heralds...

 

I mean, you are the sacrifice for mankinds survival, your duty to die  and be reborn for the good of everyone. You convince yourself that you can leave the post, abandon your duty, in part because there is a powerful order of knight to take over the mantle.

 

Then 4000 years later (ish), the knights are gone, your God is dead, the final desolation is coming and you just know, somewhere inside you, that it is partially your fault.

 

I bet some of them are seriously unhinged by now....

[Looter]

Thos eare good points Gloom.

 

In fact, you are right about the consistency of KR being a factor.

 

Each Desolation that the KR were present would make it more likely that the Heralds could justify their leaving.

 

I keept trying to imagine the state of mind of the Heralds...

 

I mean, you are the sacrifice for mankinds survival, your duty to die  and be reborn for the good of everyone. You convince yourself that you can leave the post, abandon your duty, in part because there is a powerful order of knight to take over the mantle.

 

Then 4000 years later (ish), the knights are gone, your God is dead, the final desolation is coming and you just know, somewhere inside you, that it is partially your fault.

 

I bet some of them are seriously unhinged by now....

 

 

Yes I agree with this entirely.  I don't doubt that in the intervening years that many of them have deluded themselves into thinking they really deserve alot of bad things happening to them.  Each of the reasons they broke the oathpact seems to have fallen apart or been flat out destroyed, their reasonings having been so long ago each passing year adds more and more to their doubts and recriminations till I would not doubt if several tried to do incredibly dangerous things to punish themselves much as we see Baxils mistress destroying art in a way that seems a little bit personal.

[Argent]

Baxil's mistress, assuming she is Shallash, could be destroying art in order to erase herself from written records - not necessarily because she is ashamed of her betrayal, but maybe because she doesn't want the world waiting for her, or even looking for her.

[hoser]

I still have hopes for the Heralds. 

 

I have this vague unsupported memory of Brandon saying that there was more to the opening scene than was evident.  I think Jezrien may have been working a plan for all these millenia. 

 

Once the final desolation is coming, the equation is different for the Heralds.  Their staying away from the fight will not be putting off the desolations.  Losing might mean torture, but with the Oathpact ending, maybe there is a win condition.  They might as well fight because they have nothing more to lose. 

[Gloom]

I have hopes for some of the Heralds. I have little enough hope for Jezrien himself though. Jezrian was the one who gave leave to the other Heralds to abandon the Oathpact. Yes, they all walked away, except Taln, but Jezrian was the one who validated their doubts. He was their leader, and instead of doing his duty and talking them into going back one more time, he agreed with them. He told them it would be alright, that the Knights Radiant would be enough. I think Jezrien is doomed, and that he will be replaced.

[Cheese Ninja]

I don't think Shalash going around destroying artwork is an attempt to erase herself from written records, it is on far too small a scale.  I think she feels guilty, and finds it cathartic to destroy herself in effigy.  Also, did all of you catch the BS confirmation that she was in fact Jezrien's daughter?  Oddly enough, she's dark-skinned, but no mention is made of Jezrien being dark-skinned, so either her mother was, Jezrien is and that fact was skipped over, or she was adopted.

 

I have this vague unsupported memory of Brandon saying that there was more to the opening scene than was evident.  I think Jezrien may have been working a plan for all these millenia.

I think I know the quote you're talking about, but I can't find it either.  I think the question was something about how Kalak had commented on the fighting be more intense than usual, but also noting that it was odd that only one of them had died in it.  It actually made me think that an internal betrayal was slightly more likely.

[Scott]

I'm hoping that Jezrien and at least some of the other Heralds have more of a plan than just abandoning the fight and walking away.

 

Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. “I was chosen to wait for you. We weren’t certain if you had survived. A . . . a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.”

Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?”

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

...

Kalak shook his head. “He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will.”

“Perhaps.” The king of Heralds offered no further explanation.

 

They must know that breaking the Oathpact will have consequences for Honor, and they also must know that if Odium wins they'll be dead or worse.  I'm sure Odium wouldn't be beyond torturing them for eternity just because.  Abandoning the Shardholder that defends them can't be a decision that they make lightly, although I guess thousands of years of torture could affect that.

 

Maybe they figure that they'll have a better chance to change future events if they aren't impaled on hooks all day?  

[Argent]

For a moment there, when reading "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations," it felt like the Heralds chose not to return to Damnation so they can work against Odium between Desolations. And to avoid torture, of course, but the way he says it, it makes it sound like... like this chance for them to end the cycle of Desolations is the result of them staying out of Damnation with the Oathpact still holding up (because Taln got boned). I am having trouble formulating exactly what I mean, so let me rewrite those two lines of a dialogue in a hypothetical alternative - but more clear for my idea - way:

 

"... It is time for us to take the fight to Odium instead of waiting for the next Desolation. It is time for the Oathpact to end."

"Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. What will that do?"

"Ishar believes that as long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. Enough to hold Odium to his end of the deal. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations by slaying Odium before the next one."

...

 

Kalak shook his head. “He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will.”

“Perhaps.” The king of Heralds offered no further explanation.

 

 

The only thing that bothers me (a little) is the abandonment of the Honorblades. But I think it's possible, even plausible, that those Honorblades were what bound the Heralds to the Oathpact. So they leave the blades, remain in the Physical Realm of Roshar, avoid Damnation and torture, and work towards not just making sure humanity survives the next Desolation, but also making sure the next Desolation - if it has to come and pass - is the last one. Which also ties with the knowledge Kaladin has, that this next Desolation will be the last one, the Everstorm; not because it will be the most powerful of them all, but because humanity will be the weakest*.

 

 * I don't put too much stock in this last argument. It just ties nicely with the rest.

[karaokeang]

Ok, so this is a little extra speculation based on the new information that Honor was suprised by the formation of the KR and that the Heralds were a little bitter with Honor and blamed him for their situation.

 

Can you point me in the direction of this reading or where this information came from?

[WeiryWriter]

Can you point me in the direction of this reading or where this information came from?

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4222-spoiler-new-purelake-reading-info/