Chasmfiends and the ecological impact of five years of hunting

[Gloom]

I recently read a quote from Brandon mentioning that the hunting on the Shattered Palins would have a serious ecological impact and that we should expect to see signs of this soon. I'm expecting to see at least the start of the impact in the next book. What do you think?

 

So what do we know about Chasm Fiends? Chasm Fiends are massive, they're predatory, and they're carnivorous. We should also assume that they are active hunters since the Bridge Crews had no knowledge of safe times to scavenge, nor do we have any indication that the Alethi high command had such knowledge. We know they ate goats, chulls, and people during the hunt, but what do they eat the rest of the time?

 

I'm of the opinion that we are about to see the regular Chasm Fiend diet consisted of something omnivorous that finds people tasty. That the population of this critter has exploded due to lack of hunting, and that both the Parshendi and the Alethi will soon begin to encounter these critters regularly as these critters spread westward through the canyons. I think these critters may be why the Parshendi can't retreat to the east.

 

I could be totally wrong about how this over hunting will impact the area, so lets hear some other theories if you have them, or reasons why mine is a good or bad one.

 

Edit: I'm directionally challenged

Edited September 19, 2013 by Gloom

[Natans]

I allways was under the impression that, killing the clamsfiends was a good thing because, i think that in the future they could be "changed" by odium into a "voidbringer kind o being", so kill them now in save the trouble in the future .

 

OR

 

The clasmfiend are of cultivation (the rare spren that appear when you tkae out the gemheart is a clue) and the wolrd is in deep trouble if they are killer =) 

 

How knows Mr. Sanderson was the little habit of flip the table unespected =)

[Windrunner]

I don't think that it's necessarily heavily Shard related. Killing of the apex predator of an ecosystem is devestating to the area. All of the creatures it hunts will become overpopulated, outgrow their food source, and then die off.

[Gloom]

I don't think that it's necessarily heavily Shard related. Killing of the apex predator of an ecosystem is devestating to the area. All of the creatures it hunts will become overpopulated, outgrow their food source, and then die off.

 

Or find a new food source that recently moved into the area in large numbers over the past five or six years.

 

Most crustaceans, which is what Brandon based much of the life on Roshar off of, are scavengers. They'll eat anything, plants, animals, dead Chasm Fiends, broken chrysalises, people, it doesn't matter. Sure, some of them are purely herbivorous, and others are pure predators, but most are scavengers, omnivorous. Most of the Chasm Fiends are to the east. They mostly go to the western side of the plains to pupate. Instinct may drive them to pupate away from their natural prey for safety from their prey while vulnerable.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Gloom

[Shardlet]

Food source is probably not an issue right now for the chasmfiends.  One, they are being substantially reduced in numbers by both the Alethi and the Parshendi.  Two, there are a lot of Alethi and Parshendi dead that end up in the the chasms as well as on top of the plateaus.  Seems like the remaining chasmfiends are eating quite well.  I doubt they will feel the need to leave the chasms to hunt humans for food.

 

I think the big ecological impact is that they are not completing their pupating (or rarely so) and so you have a stage of their life which is not being met.  With insects, their breeding cycle takes place after pupation.  This suggests no new chasmfiends.  This means that the species is moving towards extinction and their typical food source (which already has reduced pressure on it as seen in reason two above) will have greatly reduced pressure on it and will thrive like crazy.  Unless of course it is a symbiotic thing where the food source eats chasmfiend excrement or something like that. 

 

In any case, what will be the effect of a population boom of this as yet unknown foodsource?  What other role does the pupated chasmfiend play in the ecosystem?  Would the population spren that normally bond with the chasmfiends be an issue?

[king of nowhere]

Well, I'm thinking that simply the chasmfiendds will start dwindling in numbers, and at some point there won't be enough of them to provide enough gemstones to soulcast food for the armies.

[Gloom]

In any case, what will be the effect of a population boom of this as yet unknown foodsource?

 

Yes, what will be the effect of a population boom for a creature that is deemed worthy prey by the likes of a Chasm Fiend? Not just a population boom from a lack of hunting mind you, but quite possibly a population boom from a surplus of food as well. In the last five years, it is likely that over a hundred thousand Alethi and Parshendi corpses found their way into those canyons, and possibly two or three times that many. Will they make their way through the canyons to the west perhaps? Find entire camps full of those tasty morsels that they've been eating for the past five years?

[hoser]

I've been wondering this myself and am looking to see what we can come up with or (with the Steelheart tour) tease out of the Source.

 

I like Shardlet's idea that they are generally no longer breeding. 

Other possibilities include that the Chasmfiend young could be a food source or have a symbiotic relationship with something else. 

 

The smokespren also no longer have adult hosts/symbiotes.  If the smokespren or something that depends on them have an ecological impact, then that might be the mysterious ecological impact.

[Crysanja]

maybe the chasmfiends were bound to honor spreen, and the result of hunting them was that Kaladin could meet one if the first place.

 

idk i guess bridge 4 would have fould the creatures which gets eaten by chasmfiends, but nothing at all - this is actualy very odd.

i dont think a cashmfiend can hunt in silence. so maybe an ambush hunter?

 

i kind of dont think they were eating inside the shattered plains before - we would have heared/seen the pray.

so maybe they went outside the shatterded plains to hunt, but dont have to now, with all the bodies of the war.

 

 

i guess thouse chasmfiends have to eat something like 100-500kg of food a day(ok i dont know much about large predators and how much they eat.), actualy the size of them would suggest that they eat plants(or a bit crazy stone/dirt), because there is no large pray which they could hunt.(atleast we know of)

[Gloom]

Food source is probably not an issue right now for the chasmfiends.  One, they are being substantially reduced in numbers by both the Alethi and the Parshendi.  Two, there are a lot of Alethi and Parshendi dead that end up in the the chasms as well as on top of the plateaus.  Seems like the remaining chasmfiends are eating quite well.  I doubt they will feel the need to leave the chasms to hunt humans for food.

 

I really wasn't questioning whether the Chasm Fiends had enough to eat. I was questioning what their prey had to eat after entering a population boom, and how aggressive that prey may end up being towards humanity when there is a food crunch.

 

I kind of dont think they were eating inside the shattered plains before - we would have heared/seen the pray.

so maybe they went outside the shatterded plains to hunt, but dont have to now, with all the bodies of the war.

i guess thouse chasmfiends have to eat something like 100-500kg of food a day(ok i dont know much about large predators and how much they eat.), actualy the size of them would suggest that they eat plants(or a bit crazy stone/dirt), because there is no large pray which they could hunt.(atleast we know of)

 

I would hypothesize that the Chasm Fiends generally hunted on the eastern side of the Shattered Plains, and possibly in the western part of the Unclaimed Hills. The western side of the Shattered Plains may not be ideal for their prey due to the flash flooding and lack of available shelter.

 

Most predators either eat often or eat something that is their own size or larger. Now terrestrial crustaceans don't require as much food as a warm blooded animal of the same size, but, I think it's safe to assume that Chasm Fiends eat fairly often. The question is what are they eating? How big is their prey? It could theoretically be something in a size relationship of a human to a crawfish, but I find this unlikely. I would think that a Chasm Fiends normal prey is at least man sized, probably bigger. They are predatory, so we can reasonably assume that, at least before pupating, they eat meat. Their prey could be something as docile as chulls, but then again, it could be something as opportunistic a crab as well. If it is an opportunistic omnivore, it may begin to disperse into the western half of the plains in search of additional food. This prey animal may not be as formidable as a Chasm Fiend, but I wouldn't be surprised if it could still kill humans fairly easily.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Gloom

[Satsuoni]

Actually, the large one we have seen has already pupated, so there is a possibility that they are predatory *after* pupating. Still, I lean towards omnivore diet - rockbuds, shalebark, smaller shell beasts (including younger members of the species), Stormlight as additional energy source - rather than exclusive predators. As mentioned above, there are Chasmfiends in the chasms, but not much in the way of prey - and I don't think all of them were lured there by the bodies, since part of their lifecycle includes pupation on the plateaus. Brandon compared overhunting to whaling, so the things might be content in eating a lot of small things, like whales.

The consequences then may be many - population growth of rockbuds leading to increased erosion, smaller shelled beasts mutliplying less Stormlight retained in ecocycles (no gems), etc.

 

Did anyone think about what do Reshi islands eat? I am pretty sure not humans

[Crysanja]

i think a moving chasmfiend is like an earthquake, propably sounding like a rockslide.

so whatever they hunt will know long ahead.

small things could easely hide away, with that much warning.

 

i cant see chasmfiends activle hunting, maybe ambushing.

 

 

but go after alered pray? will be alot of running for each kill. <- hunting like this in the chasms? sounds impossible.

 

 

maybe they need very little food, and get alot of ther energy from stormlight.

[Oudeis]

They hunted the greatshells of Aimia to extinction, yes? Could there be a clue in what happened there?

[IceBaka]

I think Chapter 24 "The Gallery of Maps" has some relevant information:

"The eastern section of the map grew less detailed until the lines vanished.  In the middle was the contested area, the section of plateaus where the chasmfiends most often came to make their chrysalises.  Few came to the near side, where the permanent bridges were.  If they did come, it was to hunt, not to pupate." (Kindle location 7390; p. 352)

This suggests three important things.  First, the Alethi really don't know much (geography, flora, fauna, etc.) about the eastern portion of the plains, which means we don't either because we haven't had any viewpoints from there.  Second, chasmfiends primarily range in that unknown eastern part; that must be where they are "coming" from to hunt and/or pupate.  Third, coming to the western edge is for hunting (pupating largely occurs in the middle of the plains).

 

These support the basic ideas that Gloom is working from but don't necessarily support his conclusions.  The primary prey of the chasmfiends could be, as Gloom suggests, an omniovorous, potentially man-eating, animal that could cause trouble for the humans.  Or it could be an herbivore that might serve as another food source for humans.  Either way, it's probably on the verge of a population explosion because predation pressure has been dramatically reduced.  The problem is that the what and how of chasmfiend hunting hasn't really been addressed, although I provide some minimal speculation below.  So we are left to wonder, when chasmfiends come to the western portion of the Shattered Plains are they scavenging, hunting humans (Sadeas' can't be the only one sending search crews into the chasms), hunting something we haven't seen yet, or some combination of the above?

 

Also in Chapter 24:

"A second sheet of parchment...listed each highprince and the number of gemhearts he had won." (Kindle 7398; p. 352)

"The Parshendi usually brought a large force to the Tower, and they had rebuffed the Alethi assaults twenty-seven times now." (Kindle 7404; p. 352)

"Hardly a week goes by without a couple of clashes with the Parshendi." (Kindle 7418; p. 353)

"There were a good number of scratches next to his name, noting gemhearts won." (Kindle 7420; p. 353)

It's too bad the only definitive number here is the number of victories, and presumably amount of gemhearts won, by the Parshendi at the Tower (27).  But there are ten highprinces all collecting enough gemhearts to finance their military operations AND the Parshendi are winning some of the battles.  That's a lot of chasmfiends being killed while they pupate.

 

The wiki says there 100 weeks per year (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Roshar), so if there are two battles per week as Roion says to Dalinar, in other words two pupating chasmfiends killed each week, then hundreds of chasmfiends are being harvested every year.

 

Given their large body size, chasmfiends probably have low reproductive rates and slow maturation times.  Given their apparently solitary behavior, they probably have low population densities.  We don't really know population size or growth rates, so it's hard to speculate what the current trajectory is, but it wouldn't surprise me if chasmfiends are hunted to extinction in the next book or two.

 

It may be that the loss of chasmfiends (and their gemhearts) is the ecological consequence Brandon is referring to.  However, the ecological damage is likely to be more widespread, even if it does not directly affect the humans.  Take a real world example.  When wolves were extirpated from the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming), elk numbers increased and they began moving into habitats with less cover.  Both of these changes lead to elk feeding on aspen sprouts and buds to such an extant that there was very little new aspen growth for several years.  Many smaller animals rely on aspen for food and cover, and they experienced population declines.  That was one of the main reasons for the push to reintroduce wolves to Yellowstone.

 

 

i think a moving chasmfiend is like an earthquake, propably sounding like a rockslide.

so whatever they hunt will know long ahead.

small things could easely hide away, with that much warning.

 

i cant see chasmfiends activle hunting, maybe ambushing.

 

 

but go after alered pray? will be alot of running for each kill. <- hunting like this in the chasms? sounds impossible.

 

 

maybe they need very little food, and get alot of ther energy from stormlight.

The fact that the chasmfiends do indeed hunt, as evidenced by their attraction to bait and various in-world quotes, suggests to me that eating is important and they do not derive most of their energy from stormlight.  I envision chasmfiend hunting to be similar to how male lions (not lionesses) hunt: mostly single predator ambushes with short chases.   Any potential prey species will probably have evolved mechanoreceptors that detect approaching chasmfiends via soundwaves through either the air or the ground.  But if the movement of chasmfiends is indeed as loud as you suggest (like a rockslide or earthquake), then it may be too loud for the prey to determine the location of the source, which could actually aide the chasmfiend in an ambush-type hunting style.  After all, if you're in a chasm it isn't like an open plain with many possible escape paths.  You've only got two options for a direction to run, at least until the chasm branches.  If the movement is so loud you can't determine where it's coming from, you might just run toward the predator.  Easy lunch.

 

To conclude a really long reply, I think that chasmfiends are nearly extinct from harvesting and their primary prey (whatever it may be) will experience a population surge (pun intended) soon.  However, I don't think that prey species will in turn hunt humans.

[Isomere]

The ecological impact is likely to cause trouble, but I'm also by interested in the metaphysical impact. Consider this quote.

VIPER

Ok. The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way Atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's similar. The pits are an area where there's like a leak from the spiritual realm into the physical. That's what happens there.

This seems to be suggesting a Shard is tied up with the Greatshells somehow, and I'm worried that killing them off will weaken Cultivation or the remnants of Honor.

[Gloom]

A couple of things.

 

If Chasm Fiends were extremely loud, I can't see how one could have snuck up on Elhokar's hunting party. Yes, the main characters were a plateau away, but it emerged practically right on top of the civilians who were unaware of its presence until it had crested the lip of the canyon. It may be a massive creature, but it does have fourteen legs upon which to distribute its weight. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are stealthy, but I don't think they are walking avalanches either. Heck, even Kaladin had a close encounter in the Chasms. He just got lucky that it was moving in the other direction.

 

Chasm Fiends are a type of Great Shell. They are quite obviously not the only type of Great Shell, as several others have been mentioned in TWoKs and an even larger Great Shell was mentioned in the readings of WoR. Until this war, Chasm Fiends were rarely hunted by the Alethi, if I remember correctly. What this tells me is that they are far from the only source of gemstones. If they were even one of a few sources of gemstones they would have been hunted more regularly prior to the war.

 

I personally find it doubtful that Chasm Fiends will be hunted to extinction. I don't doubt that serious harm has been done to the species though. Consider, that they Alethi have contested pupating Chasm Fiends about twice a week for five to six years. They mentioned at some point in the book that it was only recently seeming to slow some, or maybe that was in the reading for Eshonai. I'll agree they are likely slow to reach full maturity, so it's very possible that there are still quite a few roaming the eastern part of the Shattered Plains and the Unclaimed Hills. It seems pretty obvious that Chasm Fiends were modeled off of crustaceans, so live birth is unlikely. Egg batches are very likely. This gives the species good odds of recovering eventually.

[IceBaka]

I agree on the noise issue.  I never thought the chasmfiends would be natural disaster-level loud.  I was just pointing out that even if that were the case, it would not necessarily preclude them from being effective predators.

 

I disagree that having large batches of eggs is what will save the chasmfiends from excessive harvesting.  A large number of eggs may indicate great potential reproductive success, but it is rarely realized.  In fact most species that lay large numbers of external eggs do so because they have very high mortality rates in early life stages.  In other words, only a very small percentage of those eggs survives to adulthood.

 

There are several examples of real world species undergoing population decreases even though they lay many eggs.  The average clutch size for burrowing owls (depending on location and subspecies) is around 9 eggs, much higher than the typical range of most other owls (2-5 eggs).  However, the average number of young that survive to adulthood from each burrowing owl nest is only about 3.  In much of their range, at least in North America, burrowing owl populations are decreasing.

 

More extreme examples include many of the amphibian and aquatic reptile species, especially sea turtles.  Sea turtles often lay multiple clutches per season, each with > 100 eggs, but many eggs are not viable, some clutches are depredated before hatching, newly hatched turtles face heavy predation from aerial and terrestrial predators before they reach the sea, and small turtles are exposed to even more predators in the sea.  The few that do survive to adulthood are subject to anthropogenic threats, both intentional (hunting for meat) and incidental (chemical pollution, boat strikes, etc.).  With one or two exceptions, sea turtle species are internationally recognized as endangered or critically endangered.

 

As a side note... If the primary prey of adult chasmfiends is indeed carnivorous or omnivorous, it could turn out to be a predator of chasmfiend eggs or young.  If the prey population increases because of the massive loss of chasmfiend adults, then that would add to the predation pressure on eggs/young.

 

Even with Isomere's reminder, I'm completely ignoring the magical (i.e., stormlight & gemhearts) side of this.  Depending on how that fits in with chasmfiend life history, it could rescue them or push them over the edge.

[Gloom]

When we're talking about egg batches from crustaceans, were talking about thousands of eggs. Now, this doesn't change the fact that these eggs are still subject to predation, or that the larval and juvenile forms aren't also at risk of predation, but it does mean that there is a greater chance of genetic diversity in each pod of eggs.

 

This is of course depending on whether or not Brandon is calculating reproductive rates based on earth crustaceans. If he is, then perhaps some real world numbers might be useful. When a sample of four fertilized female coconut crabs were sampled, the females carried between 51,000 and 138,000 eggs each. This is the largest crustacean on our planet that has been discovered. Other crustaceans have varying amounts of eggs from a couple of thousand on up. If Brandon isn't basing reproductive rates based on real world crustaceans, then any numbers are meaningless outside of his notes. The predation on these eggs, larva, and juveniles is always high, which is why so many eggs are hatched. In the event that too many reach maturity, most free roaming crustaceans will fight and kill competitors to provide them with food and reduce competition for prey.

 

I'm going to go ahead and speculate that gem hearts store energy for their symbiotic spren which is what allows a creature supported by an exoskeleton to survive growing to extreme sizes such as those seen in Chasm Fiends based on the quote below.  I'll also speculate that any of his crustaceans that grow past the point of where they could naturally survive the planets gravity need a gem heart or will be crushed. This would mean that any creature capable of defying the laws of physics in some way would need a gem heart to do so...

 

 

Observer

What are the smoke-y spren that appear around a dead chasmfiend?

Brandon Sanderson

They are in a symbiotic relationship with the chasmfiend, and are part of what allow the creatures to grow to the size they do with an exoskeleton. (Along with a high-oxygen, lower-gravity world.)

 

Isomere may be correct, but this is my theory on why they need the gem hearts, and why they have them in the first place.

[The Count]

As people have said, the ecological impanct could be 'magical' rather than food chain related.

 

I am sure it is said somewhere that the highstorms are getting more violent and powerful, what if this is related to the fall in the number of pupating chasmfiends?

 

RANDOM THEORY TIME... YAY!

 

What if the chasmfieds pupation acted as a sort of release valve for the stormlight in the highstorms so that by the time the highstorm got passed the shatterend plains, the storm was diminished slightly due to the pupating chasmfiends.

 

Therefore, as the chasmfiends are killed (and not pupating) they are not taking any stormlight out of the storms and therefore the storms are feeling more powerful once they hit the rest of the continent.

 

In this theory, the population of the chasm fiends is proportional to the ferocity of the highstorms.

 

Of course this assumes that:

 

1. There is a finite amount of stormlight in a hightorm

2. That the ferocity of the highstorm is proportional to the amount of stormlight in it.

3. That the highstorms are not actually getting more powerful, it just appears that way.

4. That the stormlight required to pupate the chasmfiend is pretty massive (enought to affect the total amount in a highstorm) 

 

I quite like thiss though. It seems like a pretty good adaptation for a species living closest to the origin, where the storms are strongest.

Edited September 26, 2013 by MadRand

[Gloom]

I like this theory as well. It could even be expanded a bit. If gemstones siphon power from highstorms, then it wouldn't matter what state the gemstone was in. A gem heart in a chrysalis may siphon more power than a normal gem of it's size since it would be primed to use that power immediately, but all gemstones would siphon energy to some degree. Each gemstone left exposed to the highstorm would trap a tiny bit of energy causing the storm to weaken as it went by.

 

Shinovar is surrounded by mountains. If those mountains were rich in exposed gems, it could explain why the highstorms fizzle at that point. Highstorms have to have to be powered by stormlight or they would fail long before they reached Shinovar. I couldn't even imagine a storm that could maintain that much power crossing an entire super-continent, replete with mountain ranges but tectonically stable, that was driven by natural forces, and yet wasn't strong enough to tear those mountains down.