TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 If I had one wish (and I didn't wish for world peace or something sensible), I would wish that Europe had been enclosed by an invisible barrier from around 1000 BCE, so that everywhere else could grow in relative peace. I might wish that, instead of "Back, ye heathen savages! Speak no more of thy foul religion!" the European settlers had told the Native peoples they met, "Fascinating! Tell us more about your faith. Your values and ours aren't so different, after all." I think it would've kept a lot of tragedy from unfolding. 3
Delightful Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Darn it humanity. This is why none of the aliens in the galaxy want to talk to you. This is why you don't have any friends. You're the weird kid who sits around muttering about killing things while pulling the legs of grasshoppers. You mean Nan Balat? :/And to add to the horribleness of it all, it took till like 2010 for the government to actually apologise for it. Apparently no PM wanted to do so before hand because that could mean paying something for compensation *gasp*. Not that you can possibly compensate for basically destroying a nation and a culture by stealing all the children away from their parents and raising them as second class citizens because "they'll have a better life with white people". 4
Kobold King he/him Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 You mean Nan Balat? :/ And to add to the horribleness of it all, it took till like 2010 for the government to actually apologise for it. Apparently no PM wanted to do so before hand because that could mean paying something for compensation *gasp*. Not that you can possibly compensate for basically destroying a nation and a culture by stealing all the children away from their parents and raising them as second class citizens because "they'll have a better life with white people". To add further to the horribleness of it all: for all western society talks now about having advanced beyond this, for all the governments of the world repent and apologize for destroying traditional cultures, those cultures are still not allowed to live as they traditionally did any more. I have in my ancestry people who raised their children in huts and hunted deer with bows and arrows in the forests their own ancestors had grown up in. If I hatched a family and tried to raise my own kids out in nature in such a way, I'd either be arrested for hunting/fishing without a license, arrested for violating a property law somewhere along the line, or I'd have CPS take my children for being in an "unsafe" environment. (By which they really mean "not compliant with superior Westerner dwelling design.") Western civilization steamrolled over the native cultures they came across, and it's not even possible to revive those cultures because Western laws will have you locked away to rot in a cell for not living in a suitably Western manner. I'm with Elbereth. Let's find ourselves a genie and banish medieval Europe into an alternate dimension. 1
+Slowswift Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Things like this just make me want to crawl into the fetal position and beg for the Second Coming to happen already. 3
Delightful Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 To add further to the horribleness of it all: for all western society talks now about having advanced beyond this, for all the governments of the world repent and apologize for destroying traditional cultures, those cultures are still not allowed to live as they traditionally did any more. I have in my ancestry people who raised their children in huts and hunted deer with bows and arrows in the forests their own ancestors had grown up in. If I hatched a family and tried to raise my own kids out in nature in such a way, I'd either be arrested for hunting/fishing without a license, arrested for violating a property law somewhere along the line, or I'd have CPS take my children for being in an "unsafe" environment. (By which they really mean "not compliant with superior Westerner dwelling design.") Western civilization steamrolled over the native cultures they came across, and it's not even possible to revive those cultures because Western laws will have you locked away to rot in a cell for not living in a suitably Western manner. I'm with Elbereth. Let's find ourselves a genie and banish medieval Europe into an alternate dimension. I know nothing about this and deeply apologise if this is an offensive question; I'm asking out ignorance. Aren't the Reservations supposed to be a place where you can do that? It's obviously non-ideal, but is it theoretically something?
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 I know nothing about this and deeply apologise if this is an offensive question; I'm asking out ignorance. Aren't the Reservations supposed to be a place where you can do that? It's obviously non-ideal, but is it theoretically something? Theoretically. But they're often in areas with few natural resources suited to such a lifestyle, and they're often so small that the people living there couldn't sustain a lifestyle like that. Not to mention that IIRC, the US government has passed laws sneakily restricting things that come along with a pastoral lifestyle. 1
Orlion Blight he/him Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 I know nothing about this and deeply apologise if this is an offensive question; I'm asking out ignorance. Aren't the Reservations supposed to be a place where you can do that? It's obviously non-ideal, but is it theoretically something? Here's some reading material. Essentially, many tribes have retained hunting and fishing rights on and off reservations. In fact, if I owned property that included traditional tribal hunting grounds, I would have to let the tribe hunt on my property, even if I objected to it.http://law.jrank.org/pages/8750/Native-American-Rights-Hunting-Fishing-Rights.html
Kobold King he/him Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Theoretically. But they're often in areas with few natural resources suited to such a lifestyle, and they're often so small that the people living there couldn't sustain a lifestyle like that. Not to mention that IIRC, the US government has passed laws sneakily restricting things that come along with a pastoral lifestyle. Pretty much this. Not to mention the fact that a lot of reservations aren't even remotely close to where the tribe originally lived--for instance, my great grandmother was part Cherokee. The Cherokee lived on the east coast of the United States, but one of the biggest reservations for them is in Oklahoma where they were relocated during the Trail of Tears. Oklahoma has a radically different climate and ecology than the Cherokee homelands, presumably making the traditional ways of Cherokee living impossible even if they weren't restricted to a much smaller region than they were pre-Trail of Tears. 2
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) What's the Trail of Tears? Here's the PBS version, and here's History.com. In a nutshell: In the early 1830s, the Cherokee Nation held the rights to a lot of really good land in the Southeast US. Prime farmland, fertile soil, good climate….everyone wanted it, whites especially. There were so many disputes that the case went all the way to the Supreme Court, where it was ruled that the Cherokee Nation and other First Nations lands were sovereign dependent nations, who could decide on laws within their own borders. Basically, they had the right to their own land and no one could take it away from them. ….so President Andrew Jackson said "John Marshall has made his decision; let him now enforce it," passed the Indian Removal Act, and had the military force the Cherokees off their land. They had to march from Georgia to their new reservation in Oklahoma, on a long and arduous journey where many died. One of my ancestors was forced onto the Trail of Tears, but a white family along the way took him in and hid him. He took their name, and that's part of why I can't document my Cherokee ancestry—not because the Cherokee were lousy at record keeping, but because preserving his own heritage was too dangerous at the time. Edited November 30, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles 3
Kobold King he/him Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) What's the Trail of Tears? You don't know? I am so, so sorry, but here's the Wikipedia link. EDIT: ninja'd by Twi, who was substantially less lazy than I was. Edited November 30, 2015 by Kobold King 2
Delightful Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Never learnt that bit of American history. I could tell you a lot about the Stolen Generation though. . I need to go now, I'll try read up on it later.
Kobold King he/him Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Never learnt that bit of American history. I could tell you a lot about the Stolen Generation though. . I need to go now, I'll try read up on it later. Must have to do with where we grew up. Any American can tell you what the Trail of Tears was, but I'd never heard of the Stolen Generations until just a couple of months ago. I didn't know the name used for it until today.
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) Must have to do with where we grew up. Any American can tell you what the Trail of Tears was, but I'd never heard of the Stolen Generations until just a couple of months ago. I didn't know the name used for it until today. Same here. I only learned about it very recently, and I hadn't learned about the bulk of the US government's abuses toward First Nations in school. And…really, I tend to think it's intentional. We learn all about the Trail of Tears as early as 6th or 7th grade, but nothing about the Stolen Generation in Australia or comparable abuses in Canada. I learned about the Battle of Little Bighorn and the massacre at Wounded Knee, but only got a cursory overview of the residential school era. I think that the government knows that if more people knew about how far they've gone to mistreat First Nations, there'd be more people standing up and saying "What the hell? Why were you being so evil? And why are you just pretending it never happened?" Edited November 30, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles 2
Guest Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) I know nothing about this and deeply apologise if this is an offensive question; I'm asking out ignorance. Aren't the Reservations supposed to be a place where you can do that? It's obviously non-ideal, but is it theoretically something? In Canada, most Reserves are horribly poor and the Natives live in pitiful conditions worthy of Third World countries. On the Reserve where my grand-mother grew up, anything which grew deeper than 10 inches into the Earth belonged to the government and not them. They gave them lands, but they didn't give them the right to own them. I can't say if it is the same for every single one though. In Quebec, they took the children away from their families, they put them into boarding schools where they taught them Catholicism and French. They estranged them from their families and their culture, they put little ones no older than 5 is awful school hundred of kilometers away from their home just so they could try to convert them to "our glorious ways". Needless to say many of those children were beaten and raped by the so-called priests who had for task to "raise them". Once they had finish their dirty work, they sent them back to their Reserve where they, for the most part, ended living a life of violence filled with drugs and alcohol. Still to this day, they haven't recovered, so what else is there to conclude that we suffer these people to be mistreated, beaten, humiliated and estranged from their loved ones while they were nothing more than children only to complain later on they turned bad? Unfortunately, anything related to the First Nations isn't popular: no election are won over these issues. The small consolation is our new Prime Minister wife seems keen to help reduce violence done against First Nation women. I hope she will do well, she seems a kind person. Edited December 1, 2015 by maxal
Elbereth she/her Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 Pretty much this. Not to mention the fact that a lot of reservations aren't even remotely close to where the tribe originally lived--for instance, my great grandmother was part Cherokee. The Cherokee lived on the east coast of the United States, but one of the biggest reservations for them is in Oklahoma where they were relocated during the Trail of Tears. Oklahoma has a radically different climate and ecology than the Cherokee homelands, presumably making the traditional ways of Cherokee living impossible even if they weren't restricted to a much smaller region than they were pre-Trail of Tears. Yeah, guess what we're learning about in US History this week... It's depressing.
Voidus Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 When you're cold, wet, and depressed is not the time to watch video testimonies about the Stolen Generations of the Australian Aboriginals. Storming colonial racists. Think that just because your lot was the first to figure out how to kill other people with tiny pellets of metal and smallpox you're so much better than everyone else... It's even worse when you add the cultural guilt of still living on the land that was stolen. If you can somehow imagine something so horrible being worse. You mean Nan Balat? :/ And to add to the horribleness of it all, it took till like 2010 for the government to actually apologise for it. Apparently no PM wanted to do so before hand because that could mean paying something for compensation *gasp*. Not that you can possibly compensate for basically destroying a nation and a culture by stealing all the children away from their parents and raising them as second class citizens because "they'll have a better life with white people". Which made a lot of us think we might actually be going a step in the right direction for making ammends for all the absolutely horrible things that happened. Too bad our next PM was a racist idiot. (And a hypocrite on top of that, demanding that we stop all incoming refugee boats coming to Australia because 'it's not everyones place to come to Australia.' despite no refugees being more dangerous to the real Australians than the ones who already live here.) his biggest cultural innovation was bringing back the tradition of Australian knighthood and knighting prince Philip. 2
Kobold King he/him Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 It's even worse when you add the cultural guilt of still living on the land that was stolen. If you can somehow imagine something so horrible being worse. I'm currently living on a stretch of land called the Apacheria after the tribe of natives my ancestors stamped out a hundred years ago. Cultural guilt's on every continent except Antarctica, and that's only because we haven't figured out a way to exploit penguins yet. 3
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 It's even worse when you add the cultural guilt of still living on the land that was stolen. If you can somehow imagine something so horrible being worse. Which made a lot of us think we might actually be going a step in the right direction for making ammends for all the absolutely horrible things that happened. Too bad our next PM was a racist idiot. (And a hypocrite on top of that, demanding that we stop all incoming refugee boats coming to Australia because 'it's not everyones place to come to Australia.' despite no refugees being more dangerous to the real Australians than the ones who already live here.) his biggest cultural innovation was bringing back the tradition of Australian knighthood and knighting prince Philip. Hey, it's not like the United "Let's Steal Native Land Through Violence and Policy, Strip Native Children of their Culture, and Come the 21st Century, Pretend it Was Just an Embarrassing Phase on Our Part" States are any better. Over here, there's a pretty pervasive bias holding that Natives are a bunch of self-centered lazy drunks who collect government welfare and use it to buy booze and gamble in casinos. It makes pushing any policy to help Natives in any way pretty difficult. Not that the government would, because collecting taxes and surveilling citizens is so much more important than atoning for four hundred years of malice. 3
Mistrunner Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 Um, I think this is sorta derailing the thread, because now you're making me sad.
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 Um, I think this is sorta derailing the thread, because now you're making me sad. Here's what happened when I googled "pugs in hats." 6
Mistrunner Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 Here's what happened when I googled "pugs in hats." Yaaaay! 2
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 "Apply for Spokane! Sit and listen to my case for you moving there! Here's a job! You can't miss it since I'm flinging it in your face!" Yes, Mother, I will apply for the stupid job, since you make a good point that if my brother doesn't get this university police job, I'll be glad to have one when I move up to Spokane. But if I get one better offer, I am gone. 2
Voidus Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 I'm currently living on a stretch of land called the Apacheria after the tribe of natives my ancestors stamped out a hundred years ago. Cultural guilt's on every continent except Antarctica, and that's only because we haven't figured out a way to exploit penguins yet. Hey, it's not like the United "Let's Steal Native Land Through Violence and Policy, Strip Native Children of their Culture, and Come the 21st Century, Pretend it Was Just an Embarrassing Phase on Our Part" States are any better. Over here, there's a pretty pervasive bias holding that Natives are a bunch of self-centered lazy drunks who collect government welfare and use it to buy booze and gamble in casinos. It makes pushing any policy to help Natives in any way pretty difficult. Not that the government would, because collecting taxes and surveilling citizens is so much more important than atoning for four hundred years of malice. Didn't mean to imply that we alone have a horrible history of horrible treatment of native culture, we're all equally the products of horrible europeans culturally raping everyone they came across! Oh dear, now I made myself sad. Hey look, penguins still allowed to love each other and have their own culture! 5
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 Didn't mean to imply that we alone have a horrible history of horrible treatment of native culture, we're all equally the products of horrible europeans culturally raping everyone they came across! Oh dear, now I made myself sad. Hey look, penguins still allowed to love each other and have their own culture! Some of my ancestors were Quaker, at least. Abolitionists before it was cool, didn't own slaves of any ethnicity….that doesn't mean they weren't racist, but at least they were better than some. One of them was actually pretty neat; he fought in Oliver Cromwell's army before embracing the Quaker faith and the pacifism that came with it, then came to America in the late 1600s to live out his faith in peace. Penguins are amazing. Wonder what happens when you mix two awesome things…. 3
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