Oathgates and Oathpact..

[Humpty]

     I have a question/theory about why only one of the Oathgates is working. I have tried to find information on the topic but everyone seems to think its a mechanical flaw, or not enough stormlight problem. Does anyone one else think that b/c nine of the ten Heralds abandoned the "Oathpact" that might be the problem. I might be way off base here but why would they be named "Oathgates" if there wasn't any connection at all. I have been wondering about this since I finished my Reread of the series. Any insight you experienced 17th shards could provide would be helpful.

[VladJunior]

I always assumed that they were Oathgates because they required someone who had pledged sufficient oaths of the KR's to operate them. The Stormseat gate required the use of a living shardblade to unlock the fabrial. Only someone who has pledged at least the third oath of any order has access to a living shardblade. So the fabrial is dependent upon those who make the proper oaths. Hence, Oathgate. The fact that there are ten cities, ten silver kingdoms, etc. is related to the Heralds, so maybe your theory has merit. Maybe the Heralds designed the oathgates based upon magical tech designs that they brought with them from other worlds.

[Oudeis]

Jasnah, if I recall correctly, claimed that the Gates were locked from the side of Urithiru.

 

In truth, do we know they don't work? We've seen the Oathgate at Kholinar. Has anyone tried to infuse the gemstones with Stormlight, put a living sprenblade into the keyhole, and turn the room around? I mean, Jasnah seemed to be aware of the existence of the other Gates, and she seemed convinced that the others simply didn't work, so on balance I'm inclined to trust her as one of the few in-universe people who actually thinks about things and doesn't just take them on faith. Still, I wonder. Had she tried it? Has she had access to her Sprenblade long ago enough to attempt it? Or did she rule out Kholinar's Oathgate for another reason? Did she not realize where in Kholinar the Oathgate was?

 

Huh. Now I'm thinking. Thank goodness there weren't any other sites at Stormseat as unique as the Oathgate. What if there had been two other large fields protected from the Shattering for similar reasons? She didn't know what an Oathgate looked like, and only devoted all resources to making it work because it was the only option. What if she'd found a place, filled its gems with Stormlight, summoned her Blade, and activated a giant fabrial for Friction? (Though granted, by the time she was inside, the pictures of the cities/Urithiru must've been something of a clue.)

[Humpty]

I always assumed that they were Oathgates because they required someone who had pledged sufficient oaths of the KR's to operate them. The Stormseat gate required the use of a living shardblade to unlock the fabrial. Only someone who has pledged at least the third oath of any order has access to a living shardblade. So the fabrial is dependent upon those who make the proper oaths. Hence, Oathgate. The fact that there are ten cities, ten silver kingdoms, etc. is related to the Heralds, so maybe your theory has merit. Maybe the Heralds designed the oathgates based upon magical tech designs that they brought with them from other worlds.

There is a flaw in this. Shallan had access to her shard blade after having only said the first Oath. She killed her mother with it defending herself years ago... Kaladin didn't get his till the third oath was given. That being said we can assume that it is deferent for each order. I am guessing it has more to do with the Oathpact than the Oaths given by the Radiants. Just a thought,  I would love to know for sure However, its probably RAFO bait.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Humpty

[Oudeis]

WoB says that Shallan had advanced very far as a child (implying she was somehow broken even before the event that shattered her. Meep) so we don't actually know how many Oaths she had said at the time.

 

That said, we also don't know that every Order gets their Blade at the same numbered Oath. Or that all Windrunners do. Or that Kaladin couldn't have summoned Syl as a Blade earlier if he'd thought to try.

[Arondell]

The Radiants arose independent of the Heralds or the Oathpact.  Because of this I'm not particularly inclined to assume there is any direct connection between the Oathgates and the Oathpact. 

[Humpty]

Jasnah, if I recall correctly, claimed that the Gates were locked from the side of Urithiru.

 

In truth, do we know they don't work? We've seen the Oathgate at Kholinar. Has anyone tried to infuse the gemstones with Stormlight, put a living sprenblade into the keyhole, and turn the room around? I mean, Jasnah seemed to be aware of the existence of the other Gates, and she seemed convinced that the others simply didn't work, so on balance I'm inclined to trust her as one of the few in-universe people who actually thinks about things and doesn't just take them on faith. Still, I wonder. Had she tried it? Has she had access to her Sprenblade long ago enough to attempt it? Or did she rule out Kholinar's Oathgate for another reason? Did she not realize where in Kholinar the Oathgate was?

 

Huh. Now I'm thinking. Thank goodness there weren't any other sites at Stormseat as unique as the Oathgate. What if there had been two other large fields protected from the Shattering for similar reasons? She didn't know what an Oathgate looked like, and only devoted all resources to making it work because it was the only option. What if she'd found a place, filled its gems with Stormlight, summoned her Blade, and activated a giant fabrial for Friction? (Though granted, by the time she was inside, the pictures of the cities/Urithiru must've been something of a clue.)

Also do not forget at the end of WoR in Urithiru Dalanar said that Shallan had been unable to make the other oathgates work.

[Humpty]

WoB says that Shallan had advanced very far as a child (implying she was somehow broken even before the event that shattered her. Meep) so we don't actually know how many Oaths she had said at the time.

 

That said, we also don't know that every Order gets their Blade at the same numbered Oath. Or that all Windrunners do. Or that Kaladin couldn't have summoned Syl as a Blade earlier if he'd thought to try.

WoB said that? ok cool so it still might be true about the third Oath theory..

[ParadoxicalZen]

The Radiants arose independent of the Heralds or the Oathpact.  Because of this I'm not particularly inclined to assume there is any direct connection between the Oathgates and the Oathpact. 

 

I disagree, as the WoR epigraph of chapter 42 reads "But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

Jasnah, if I recall correctly, claimed that the Gates were locked from the side of Urithiru.

 

In truth, do we know they don't work? We've seen the Oathgate at Kholinar. Has anyone tried to infuse the gemstones with Stormlight, put a living sprenblade into the keyhole, and turn the room around? I mean, Jasnah seemed to be aware of the existence of the other Gates, and she seemed convinced that the others simply didn't work, so on balance I'm inclined to trust her as one of the few in-universe people who actually thinks about things and doesn't just take them on faith. Still, I wonder. Had she tried it? Has she had access to her Sprenblade long ago enough to attempt it? Or did she rule out Kholinar's Oathgate for another reason? Did she not realize where in Kholinar the Oathgate was?

 

Huh. Now I'm thinking. Thank goodness there weren't any other sites at Stormseat as unique as the Oathgate. What if there had been two other large fields protected from the Shattering for similar reasons? She didn't know what an Oathgate looked like, and only devoted all resources to making it work because it was the only option. What if she'd found a place, filled its gems with Stormlight, summoned her Blade, and activated a giant fabrial for Friction? (Though granted, by the time she was inside, the pictures of the cities/Urithiru must've been something of a clue.)

 

There's something about Oathgates (vaguely mentioned) in one the translation topics (the one that covers the sketch Shallan drew in one of Jasnah's notebooks) and you can see Jasnah's script has partly faded away in the background. IIRC, what has been translated so far mentions something about Jasnah's pursuit of them in each of the Silver Kingdom cities but she doesn't really give a conclusion as to what she finds.

 

We do know Shallan is currently at the 4th level, but as to whether she was previously at the 3rd when she nearly killed Pattern remains to be seen

Edited August 20, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Humpty]

The Radiants arose independent of the Heralds or the Oathpact.  Because of this I'm not particularly inclined to assume there is any direct connection between the Oathgates and the Oathpact. 

This might be true..however, do we know if the Radiants for sure built Urithiru? Or the more than likely senario... the Heralds having a direct hand in building Urithiru.. My guess is the Radiants had help or it was build before the radiants were established. If this is the case than my theory is still sound.

[DreamEternal]

This might be true..however, do we know if the Radiants for sure built Urithiru? Or the more than likely senario... the Heralds having a direct hand in building Urithiru.. My guess is the Radiants had help or it was build before the radiants were established. If this is the case than my theory is still sound.

Nohadon said he went to Urithiru, but he surely predates the KR(or at least their herald aproved incarnation, since I suspect the organization itself was funded by Nohadon and Ishar later magicaly binded all surgebinders to its principles, perhaps using the dawnshards) by at least one desolation, so I suspect the city actualy comes from the heralds or the dawnsingers.

[Confused]

I like Humpty's theory that the Oathgates are associated with the Heralds and the Oathpact. In fact, I agree with a lot of the speculation here, that the Herald's may have created Urithiru, etc.

 

It’s probably not coincidence that only one of ten Oathgates functions. If this association exists, would Stormseat - Natanatan (sp?) - site of the one functional Oathgate, be the Silver Kingdom related to Talenal?

 

It’s odd that the epicenter of the Shattered Plains, where “great magic happened” (WoB), should be the one Oathgate that works. It’s almost as if a “sonic bomb” or maybe an electromagnetic pulse was delivered by that Oathgate deep into the Plains and also through to the other Oathgates, leaving this the only one undamaged…

[WeiryWriter]

I like Humpty's theory that the Oathgates are associated with the Heralds and the Oathpact. In fact, I agree with a lot of the speculation here, that the Herald's may have created Urithiru, etc.

 

It’s probably not coincidence that only one of ten Oathgates functions. If this association exists, would Stormseat - Natanatan (sp?) - site of the one functional Oathgate, be the Silver Kingdom related to Talenal?

 

It’s odd that the epicenter of the Shattered Plains, where “great magic happened” (WoB), should be the one Oathgate that works. It’s almost as if a “sonic bomb” or maybe an electromagnetic pulse was delivered by that Oathgate deep into the Plains and also through to the other Oathgates, leaving this the only one undamaged…

 

I'm generally in favor of the "Each Herald was associated with one of the Silver Kingdoms" but I find it much more likely that Talenel was associated with Alethela.  At one point Taln is referred to as the "Herald of War", and I believe it is in the Starfalls vision that one of the Knights says who Alethela is dedicated to the arts of war.  Not to mention that the man who calls himself Taln showed up outside of Kholinar (which would been the site of Alethela's capital).

 

As for Stormseat's Oathgate being the center point of the Shattering of the Plains.  It doesn't match the geography described in the text, Shallan and co. only notice it because it's an aberration in the pattern, it does not lie at the center.

 

My opinion is that it wasn't locked like the others because Stormseat was destroyed during Aharietiem, and so when Urithiru was abandoned centuries later it was missed for some reason.

[StoneWalker]

During the interlude with Pai and the other Ardent, they wak through the oathgate dais and it describes eleven lamps, with a large keyhole.

They passed into the Circle of Memories, a round room with ten lamps on the walls, one for each of the ancient Epoch Kingdoms. An eleventh lamp represented the Tranquiline Halls, and a large ceremonial keyhole set into the wall...

When Shallan unlocks the Stormseat gate, it says only ten lamps are present.

A circular room. A thing on one side that adapted to fit different Shardblades...Ten lamps on the walls...Ten lamps. With gems in them.

I think whoever locked the Oathgates added a lamp to the Fabrial so it would no longer work.This both explains why Stormseat was never locked, and also why when Jasnah tried the Kholinar gate, it didn't work. Stormseat wouldn't have been bothered with to lock since it was probably presumed destroyed during the Recreance. Jasnah had never seen a working Oathgate, so wasn't able to determine why/how the Oathgate was locked.

 

Edit to add quotes and clarify.

Edited August 21, 2015 by StoneWalker

[Arondell]

I disagree, as the WoR epigraph of chapter 42 reads "But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

 

It has also been made explicitly clear that the in-story Words of Radiance is unreliable.  It is my feeling that Nohodon's words in Dalinar's vision provides a better look at the situation.

 

 

“I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them….” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 849-850). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

This seems to strongly imply that it was Nohodon that sought a way to make the Knights better through the oaths.  The prior desolation was over and Heralds would have left until the next desolation.  So at least at that time the Heralds had not yet instituted the oaths and it would likely be centuries until they would have another opportunity too.  If it was Ishi'Elin and not Nohodon he, at the very least, waited an entire desolation cycle to actually institute it.

 

The information is sketchy but my impression from this vision and from parts of the in-story Way of Kings is that the Knights were actually founded by Nohodon and the Urithiru likely built during his life time.

[Humpty]

     Its annoying not being able to figure something like this out for sure. The eleventh lamp on the wall,  is the only other theory I have read that comes close to this one.  Just too many damnation coincidence's for my tastes. Coincidence's, when stacked togather like that turns into evidence.  Someone needs to ask BS about this topic and if he says, "RAFO" punch him in the mouth....

Joking about the punching part of course...lol

Edited August 21, 2015 by Humpty

[DreamEternal]

It has also been made explicitly clear that the in-story Words of Radiance is unreliable. It is my feeling that Nohodon's words in Dalinar's vision provides a better look at the situation.

This seems to strongly imply that it was Nohodon that sought a way to make the Knights better through the oaths. The prior desolation was over and Heralds would have left until the next desolation. So at least at that time the Heralds had not yet instituted the oaths and it would likely be centuries until they would have another opportunity too. If it was Ishi'Elin and not Nohodon he, at the very least, waited an entire desolation cycle to actually institute it.

The information is sketchy but my impression from this vision and from parts of the in-story Way of Kings is that the Knights were actually founded by Nohodon and the Urithiru likely built during his life time.

The way I see it, at first the oaths were not part if the magic system, and Nohadon just created a group of surgebinders that wanted to use their power responsably, and the oaths were something internal to that organization. The knights radiant as we kniow them started when Ishar magicaly forced all other surgebinders to be bound by the oaths of the organization Nohadon founded.

[Erinzard]

In chapter 89 of WoR Dalinar realizes that the Oathgate plateau he sees in Urithiru is the same as the one that the palace and royal temple are built on. That means that either the Oathgate is useless because they built over the top of it or in ages past stormlight was so plentiful that they could just transport the entire palace and temple to Urithiru everytime the gate was activated (obviously this is pretty unlikely). 

 

The Coppermind lists the Circle of Memories as Kholinar's Oathgate activation chamber, but I'm not so sure. I think it more likely the Circle was built by people sometime after the Recreance who remembered the Oathgates OR it's a fabrial that is activated similarly to the Oathgates but with a different function - maybe like the Rosharan version of a coppermind? I'm imagining Radiant scholars coming to deposit or view memories that Lightweavers have created. I'm probably waaaay into tinfoil hat territory, but what the hay. As for the 11th lamp...who knows. If the Circle really is the Oathgate chamber then it must be the lock, but if not, the Tranquiline Halls comment describing it is too juicy to ignore. Leave it to Brandon to dangle some deeper secret right in front of our faces. 

[A Windspren]

I think it's because the 11th lamp on the city-based Oathgates messes with how they work Jasnah couldn't repair the one in Alethkar because she didn't know what they were supposed to look like, but now that Shallan knows that there isn't supposed to be an 11th lamp, she can send a message by spanreed to, say, Kaladin while he's in Kholinar, and he can start transporting people from Kholinar to other cities.

[Pathfinder]

Well my logic goes this way. If the oathgates don't work because the Heralds broke their pact, then:

 

1. why does that oathgate now work when the heralds haven't shown up like in the past to help mankind?

 

2. if the oathgate is a surgebinding transportation fabrial, then why does the surgebinding regrowth fabrial Nale uses work?

[Stormgate]

The Oathgates were sealed. That means they would be leaking Stormlight.

The Oathgates simply have dead batteries.