Dalinar's scene from WOR (Brandon reading)

[Morsk]

Do we have any evidence that Jasnah did not hear her other than that we have not seen Jasnah comment on it yet?

Not really; I just thought it was bizarre Jasnah didn't react, and then hoser said Shallan communicates silently and I thought that was his reasoning.

But I reread the passage, and some of Shallan's communication is definitely silent and in italics, and the "murderer" part is in quotes and spoken.

[Azul]

Huh, good memory Windrunner.

 

This is the only place I can find Dalinar thinking about Purelake.

In the reading didn't he mention that he had visited the area and wanted to go to the purelake and his guide or whoever asked him why he would want to visit there?

 

Also there are two ways you can take his thoughts in ch 11.  He mentions it reminds of him Sela Tales and the Purelake.  We learn from Ishikk that Sela Tales was the Epoch Kingdom that the Purelake resided in.  We can assume that Dalinar has never visted Sela Tales as it no longer exist as a kingdom but he could have heard stories about both it and the purelake.  In grouping these two thoughts together its possible he is saying  'this reminds me of what i imagine these places to be like' rather than 'this looks like a place i've seen before'

[hoser]

I hadn't considered that Shallan communicates silently. On the other hand, she said "I'm a murderer," in front of Jasnah and Jasnah didn't hear it. Is that your reasoning?

 

Not really; I just thought it was bizarre Jasnah didn't react, and then hoser said Shallan communicates silently and I thought that was his reasoning.

But I reread the passage, and some of Shallan's communication is definitely silent and in italics, and the "murderer" part is in quotes and spoken.

You probably caught it on the re-read, but I assumed it was silent when it says "in her head":

Creatures, she said in her head.  Can you hear me?

 

The "murderer" part is whispered.  Maybe it is so quiet that Jasnah can't hear.  After all, it doesn't even need to be whispered for the spren to apparently hear it. 

 

edited: cleanup

Edited June 20, 2013 by hoser

[Windrunner]

That's a good point Azul. I suppose it could just be that he went to Sela Tales but didn't make it to the Purelake, although I certainly interpreted the original quote as him remembering the Purelake.

[Azul]

That's a good point Azul. I suppose it could just be that he went to Sela Tales but didn't make it to the Purelake, although I certainly interpreted the original quote as him remembering the Purelake.

That is how i read it as well tbh but thought I'd point out its ambiguous enough of a statement that it doesnt necessarily mean its a continuity error.

[Shardlet]

Also there are two ways you can take his thoughts in ch 11.  He mentions it reminds of him Sela Tales and the Purelake.  We learn from Ishikk that Sela Tales was the Epoch Kingdom that the Purelake resided in.  We can assume that Dalinar has never visted Sela Tales as it no longer exist as a kingdom but he could have heard stories about both it and the purelake.  In grouping these two thoughts together its possible he is saying  'this reminds me of what i imagine these places to be like' rather than 'this looks like a place i've seen before'

 

 

It is interesting that he thinks of it as Sela Tales rather than as Yulay, Marabethia, Babatharnam, or Tu Bayla.  It seems to me to suggest (if it is not a continuity error) how steeped be has become in 'The Way of Kings' if he thinks of present day areas in terms of their ancient names.

[Windrunner]

Either that or the whole region is still referred to as Sela Tales, even after the collapse of that kingdom.

[Meg]

The reading is fascinating.  One interesting aspect is that the Knight is communicating audibly, whereas the Knights in "Starfall" seemed to communicate silently.  Is there something different going on or is it order-based? 

Kaladin speaks audibly to Syl, but Shallan and presumably Jasnah communicate silently in in tWoK.  I've been assuming that Kaladin doesn't just direct his thoughts at Syl because he hasn't tried yet. 

Maybe the Knight to Knight communication can only be silent for certain orders.  If the Stoneward woman is one of them, then order 8 or 10 is the other. 

 

 

What do you mean with "communicate silently"? That they talk "in their minds*, not audible? 

If yes, why do you think that? 

“Spread the word. Signs like this one are not without import. A Desolation is coming.” He turned to his companion. “I will go. Guard these three and lead them to the village. We cannot leave them alone in the dangers of this night.”

 

The male Knight talks to his fellow Knight and both of them talk to Dalinar. Please help . 

[Shardlet]

Yeah, I also have been thinking about that.  I re-read Starfalls with this question in mind and I did not see anything to suggest non-audible communication.  The closest I could find is where Dalinar steps into smokestance and the radiants look at each other and turn to form a defensive triangle with Dalinar.  This seems to me to be mostly instinctual or communication by body language.  I saw no indication of non-audible verbal communication.

[hoser]

What do you mean with "communicate silently"? That they talk "in their minds*, not audible? 

If yes, why do you think that? 

 

The male Knight talks to his fellow Knight and both of them talk to Dalinar. Please help . 

Well, I do make a degree of inference, but BS's intention seems clear (to me )

From Starfalls (the section Shardlet refers to):

The female Shardbearer turned to her companion, then the two of them fell into stances forming a triangle with Dalinar, his position closest to the rack formation.

Why would she turn to her companion if not to communicate?  They are surrounded by monsters, so it is not helpful.  If they wanted to communicate by body language, she could just move to the triangulated position without turning to the other knight. 

 

The knight sniffed dismissively. "Voidbringers? These? No, this was Midnight Essence, though who released it is still a mystery."  She looked to the side, expression growing distant.  "Harkaylain says the desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. He-"

The "looked to the side, expression growing distant" indicates something to me.  I think she is communicating with Harkaylain or someone communicating with Harkaylain and relaying what she "hears". 

 

Syl communicates with Kaladin silently, as does Shallan with at least one Cryptic.  I assume Jasnah is doing the same.  Since I believe that the Nahel bond allows people to use spren abilities, it seems possible that some knights might gain that ability.

 

In Mistborn:

Ruin can talk remotely with invested parties and Preservation can "hear", so communication is within the realm of Shardic power.  Honor, being relational, could have it as a power.

 

That's the data leading to my conclusion.  Neither piece of evidence is conclusive and the first seems weaker, but looking at them together, I can't think of any other reason for that prose other than to indicate the female knight's's ability to communicate. 

 

What do you guys think, having heard my case?

 

Edit: reference spren communication, move spoiler paragraph

Edited June 28, 2013 by hoser

[Shardlet]

My personal feelings are that you are reading into the information a bit too much.  As for the example with Syl and the cryptics, those are spren and I don't recall seeing any indication yet that spren can communicate over distances.  I also don't see any indication of people gaining spren abilities as a result of a bond.  I do see special abilities resulting from an apparent symbiosis between spren and people/beasties.  But these don't appear to be abilities that the spren have in and of themselves. 

 

I already gave my thoughts on the first part of the Starfalls scene.  As to the second part you cited, I read it as she is surveying the overall situation and looking towards where other KR are fighting/acting in the village/town and thinking about what one of the KR has previously said.  I don't read it as receiving a communication, though I can understand your arrival at that interpretation.  I think, for me, it falls under plausible, but unlikely.

 

Ruin truly can talk to invested people, but only if they are spiked.  Even without spikes, Scadrians still have a portion of Ruin's investiture.

 

I need to spend more time thinking up new theories.  Lately, I feel like I am nothing but a big wet blanket.

[Kurkistan]

Yeah hoser, I must say I agree with Shardlet that you're reading too much into that scene. "Share a look, then start fighting in unison" and harking back to a memory/considering the desolation ahead do not telepathy make.

[hoser]

My personal feelings are that you are reading into the information a bit too much.  As for the example with Syl and the cryptics, those are spren and I don't recall seeing any indication yet that spren can communicate over distances. 

Spanreed fabrials that are used for remote communication? 

Hard to say, since we don't have experience with spren communicating.  Syl is redeveloping cognition, but doesn't seem to remember previous connections with any clarity, so there is really no-one for her to communicate with.  The Cryptics seem social, and through their greater relationship with the cognitive realm, may not have lost their memories as Syl has, so it will be interesting to see what develops. From the little we've seen, it's premature to conclude anything about their communication. 

 

I also don't see any indication of people gaining spren abilities as a result of a bond.  I do see special abilities resulting from an apparent symbiosis between spren and people/beasties.  But these don't appear to be abilities that the spren have in and of themselves. 

In the camp where Kaladin is a platoonleader, a spren (I believe Syl) sticks a pouch of spheres to his belt.  This is before he is a slave and she talks to him.  She also makes people trip by sticking their feet to the ground.  In his POV, he says that anyone can catch a spren, but that you learn to ignore them.  Windspren can bind things, essentially creating a small lashing, even without the bond.  When Syl is not cognitively advanced, I believe it is how she expresses herself.  I predict that as we learn more, we will find that spren endow their particular abilities through the bond.  I think that we will find that Cryptics are associated w/Shadesmar even in the absence of the bond. 

So I disagree strongly, the bond does not create new abilities, but rather share them.  Syl shares Kaladin's cognitive abilities through the bond and he gains the Lashings that she already had.

[Meg]

Why would she turn to her companion if not to communicate?  They are surrounded by monsters, so it is not helpful.  If they wanted to communicate by body language, she could just move to the triangulated position without turning to the other knight. 

 

The "looked to the side, expression growing distant" indicates something to me.  I think she is communicating with Harkaylain or someone communicating with Harkaylain and relaying what she "hears". 

 

I'm sorry, but I can't be with you there. I think the female Knight turns to Harkaylain to see, how he reacts on Dalinar joining the fight and then they build that triangular formation. 

 

I don't refuse that there is something going on that is not visible or audible for Dalinar. But Harkaylain's expression growing distant might indicate that something in the distance (likely in the town where Dalinar fled from) was brought to Harkaylain's focus. 

 

Given that all KR shared a bond with spren I personally think that his spren might have gone there and told him, he was needed. This I believe because the two KR seemed to appear where they were needed without any hint how they knew where to go. 

 

Maybe the Orders and their spren provided sort of a "network" watching over Roshar and sending help where it was needed. 

 

Yes, we didn't see Kal and Syl communicate over distances but that might be, because Kal's not a KR yet and so the Nahel bond between Kal and Syl isn't fully formed yet. This implies that we don't know yet what abilities are granted by a fully formed Nahel bond(-symbiosis). I'm musing that one must have spoken all Ideals of their Order (so four Ideals) to complete that symbioses to a real Nahel bond. 

[Shardlet]

Well, you bring up some significant examples which cannot be explained away with the wave of a hand, Hoser.  They give me more to think on.  The most sigificant to our present discourse is the spanreed example.  However, even if your examples are truly indicative of sharing of powers, spren seem to be fairly specialized.  I suspect that a specific type of spren is required for the creation of specific fabrials, such as spanreeds.  So, in that vein, I am dubious as to the aditional communication ability in addition to the surges received by the Nahel Bond.  The out for this would of course be certain radiant orders having a communication ability as a surge.  This would certainly be very useful in a battle, particularly a big one (one with big armies).

[hoser]

I don't refuse that there is something going on that is not visible or audible for Dalinar. But Harkaylain's expression growing distant might indicate that something in the distance (likely in the town where Dalinar fled from) was brought to Harkaylain's focus. 

I apologize for not retyping more.  The context of the second quote is after the Windrunner has left.  The woman is talking and her expression is the one that grows distant.  She refers to Harkaylain in the third person.  You might want to reread the section. 

 

Given that all KR shared a bond with spren I personally think that his spren might have gone there and told him, he was needed. This I believe because the two KR seemed to appear where they were needed without any hint how they knew where to go. 

 

Maybe the Orders and their spren provided sort of a "network" watching over Roshar and sending help where it was needed. 

There has to be some sort of detection going on in order for the Knights to arrive in the first place.  The Knights are all located in Alethela and they quickly respond to a problem in rural Natanatan.  There are detection fabrials and Syl can detect a concentration of people as they approach the Shattered Plains.  This detection seems to be based on "cognitive activity".

I think there must be something else going on, because those are proximity-based and not attuned to the Midnight Essence.  I hypothesize (should I make a new theory?) that there is a "Detect Voidish" ability or something similar.  To detect Midnight Essence in another country, or presumably anywhere in the Silver Kingdoms, another ability is necessary.  Is this ability is a specialization of a pair of orders or available to all knights?

 

Yes, we didn't see Kal and Syl communicate over distances but that might be, because Kal's not a KR yet and so the Nahel bond between Kal and Syl isn't fully formed yet. This implies that we don't know yet what abilities are granted by a fully formed Nahel bond(-symbiosis). I'm musing that one must have spoken all Ideals of their Order (so four Ideals) to complete that symbioses to a real Nahel bond. 

Quite possible.

 

Well, you bring up some significant examples which cannot be explained away with the wave of a hand, Hoser.  They give me more to think on.  The most sigificant to our present discourse is the spanreed example.  However, even if your examples are truly indicative of sharing of powers, spren seem to be fairly specialized.  I suspect that a specific type of spren is required for the creation of specific fabrials, such as spanreeds.  So, in that vein, I am dubious as to the aditional communication ability in addition to the surges received by the Nahel Bond.  The out for this would of course be certain radiant orders having a communication ability as a surge.  This would certainly be very useful in a battle, particularly a big one (one with big armies).

 

Am I being presumptuous in reminding you of the reading that inspired this thread? The reading includes:

As soldiers continue their march, the knight at the center speaking with– nobody? She sounded like she was having a conversation and Dalinar couldn’t see or hear anyone else on the other side of that conversation.

I think this strongly supports remote audible communication.  The next question for me is whether certain orders possibly including the Stonewards have an additional silent ability.  The Knight in the WoR reading is presumably of the Chach (3) order, which is not adjacent to the Stoneward (9) order. 

 

You touch on another point that I am very curious about.  In the "Starfalls" chapter, the Stoneward woman and the Windrunner man are described as having eyes that appear to glow.  Does that mean that they can infuse?  We know that Windrunners can, but it is not Pressure or Gravity, the two surges of Windrunners. 

Can all Radiants infuse?  If so, there may be set of abilities that all orders gain in addition to their two surges and their special ability. 

Why then don't Jasnah or Shallan infuse?  Maybe Shallan doesn't know how and Jasnah, if she knows how, hasn't needed to. 

 

Edit: Added universal Radiant ability speculation (last 3 paragraphs)

Edited June 28, 2013 by hoser

[Kurkistan]

Am I being presumptuous in reminding you of the reading that inspired this thread? The reading includes:

 

...

 

I think this strongly supports remote audible communication.  The next question for me is whether certain orders possibly including the Stonewards have an additional silent ability.  The Knight in the WoR reading is presumably of the Chach (3) order, which is not adjacent to the Stoneward (9) order. 

 

I think it's rather bluntly implied that she's talking to her spren, as I mentioned when this reading first came to light.

[Shardlet]

I think it's rather bluntly implied that she's talking to her spren, as I mentioned when this reading first came to light.

 

I strongly agree with Kurkistan on this.  I think it is definitely overthinking when we have an inworld canon example (Kaladin speaking to Syl who is perceived by nobody else but Rock).  Good old Occam.

 

Edit:

 

You touch on another point that I am very curious about.  In the "Starfalls" chapter, the Stoneward woman and the Windrunner man are described as having eyes that appear to glow.  Does that mean that they can infuse?  We know that Windrunners can, but it is not Pressure or Gravity, the two surges of Windrunners. 

Can all Radiants infuse?  If so, there may be set of abilities that all orders gain in addition to their two surges and their special ability. 

Why then don't Jasnah or Shallan infuse?  Maybe Shallan doesn't know how and Jasnah, if she knows how, hasn't needed to. 

 

Well, I don't know about infusing, but soulcasting does consume stormlight.  I suspect all the orders use stormlight for their abilities.  But also recall, we don't have much detail on Shallan or Jasnah's abilities or the abilities of the other orders.  There has been a lot of speculation on these things, but the evidence to support this speculation is scant.  We don't have anything to tie Shallan's memory drawing to the KR.  The soulcasting we are more confidant about, but that does consume stormlight.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Shardlet

[Meg]

I apologize for not retyping more.  The context of the second quote is after the Windrunner has left.  The woman is talking and her expression is the one that grows distant.  She refers to Harkaylain in the third person.  You might want to reread the section. 

 

 

I appreciate your hint and did re-read that passage. You're right this wasn't Harkaylain but the female knight, though that doesn't disprove my idea that there's a communication between a KR and their or a spren. 

 

 

 

There has to be some sort of detection going on in order for the Knights to arrive in the first place.  The Knights are all located in Alethela and they quickly respond to a problem in rural Natanatan. 

 

That is what I tried to say. 

 

 

There are detection fabrials and Syl can detect a concentration of people as they approach the Shattered Plains.  This detection seems to be based on "cognitive activity".

 

 

Ah, maybe Syl just lurked around and saw those people? But that's to easy a possibility, I see. 

 

 

Quite possible.

 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

Am I being presumptuous in reminding you of the reading that inspired this thread? The reading includes:

I think this strongly supports remote audible communication.  

 

As I said: I think that (half-)audible communication is with spren; see also Kurkistans post. 

 

 

I'm sorry that I did mess that Starfalls-quote up and that my posts might sometimes need some clarifying or that I misread other posts; that's mostly because I (yet) lack a lot of ability in English. 

[hoser]

I think it's rather bluntly implied that she's talking to her spren, as I mentioned when this reading first came to light.

It seems like a possibility.  Why do you say "bluntly implied"?

 

I strongly agree with Kurkistan on this.  I think it is definitely overthinking when we have an inworld canon example (Kaladin speaking to Syl who is perceived by nobody else but Rock).  Good old Occam.

If it was Kaladin and Syl searching for a weird spren, they wouldn't be having a conversation.  Kaladin would be looking and he would ask Syl to look also (as she is quite good at finding things).  This knight's spren might not be as mobile as Syl though.  She could be talking to her spren because the spren is useless in the search. 

 

 

Well, I don't know about infusing, but soulcasting does consume stormlight.  I suspect all the orders use stormlight for their abilities.  But also recall, we don't have much detail on Shallan or Jasnah's abilities or the abilities of the other orders.  There has been a lot of speculation on these things, but the evidence to support this speculation is scant.  We don't have anything to tie Shallan's memory drawing to the KR.  The soulcasting we are more confidant about, but that does consume stormlight.

Yeah.  We don't know for sure whether Kaladin's Stormriding consumes stormlight, although it is implied not to, just because the bridgemen hardly had any. 

[Kurkistan]

It seems like a possibility.  Why do you say "bluntly implied"?

 

I may have overstated my case (I've always been fond of the Assuredness Movment, myself), but it's just one of those things.

 

As a reader, you know about Kaladin talking to Syl like a crazy person, you know that all Radiants get spren, and you know that Dalinar doesn't know about any of this; so you see a part where Dalinar is all confuddled and "who's she talking to?" and the rather obvious conclusion you're supposed to come to, as a reader, is that she's talking to her spren and poor Dalinar just doesn't know enough to figure that out himself. Not that she's on Radiant-radio.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Shardlet]

Yeah.  We don't know for sure whether Kaladin's Stormriding consumes stormlight, although it is implied not to, just because the bridgemen hardly had any.

 

Don't forget, although Kaladin presumably saw actual events, he did not physically go out cruising on the stormfront.  It was portrayed in the book to be something of a dream (presumably sourced from the great big voice he heard during the dream).  So no actual stormlight was consumed in this scene (except of course any that Kaladin perhaps incidentally consumed during his sleep). Cognitive storm-surfing, gotta love it! 

[Crysanja]

maybe some spren go bad when theire linked partner dies?

[hoser]

I may have overstated my case (I've always been fond of the Assuredness Movment, myself), but it's just one of those things.

 

As a reader, you know about Kaladin talking to Syl like a crazy person, you know that all Radiants get spren, and you know that Dalinar doesn't know about any of this; so you see a part where Dalinar is all confuddled and "who's she talking to?" and the rather obvious conclusion you're supposed to come to, as a reader, is that she's talking to her spren and poor Dalinar just doesn't know enough to figure that out himself. Not that she's on Radiant-radio.

Thanks for the explanation. 

 

This obsessive reader, in considering what must have happened behind the scenes to allow the Radiants to respond as they did in "Starfalls" and interpreting the vision as I do, reached a different conclusion.  I think that most readers will interpret it as you did, but It seems possible to me that Brandon could be hiding one reality behind another.  He has fooled me so many times in Mistborn that I am sure that I am misinterpreting many things in tWoK. 

 

In suggesting that this reading is strong evidence for communication, I erred, and appreciate being reminded of it. 

 

Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

Shardlet, on 28 Jun 2013 - 15:38, said:

Don't forget, although Kaladin presumably saw actual events, he did not physically go out cruising on the stormfront.  It was portrayed in the book to be something of a dream (presumably sourced from the great big voice he heard during the dream).  So no actual stormlight was consumed in this scene (except of course any that Kaladin perhaps incidentally consumed during his sleep). Cognitive storm-surfing, gotta love it! 

Good point!  In a way, it is more like one of Dalinar's visions.  I wonder whether there is time-compression also, as he rides to the end of the continent and the storm is still just ending at the Shattered Plains.  The Szeth sighting seems significant too.  So many questions.

 

Shallan's memory thing seems to go back to before she could have attracted a spren, unless it was a spren attracted to drawings.

 

Edit: combine posts to eliminate double post

Edited July 1, 2013 by hoser

[The Count]

Can all Radiants infuse?  If so, there may be set of abilities that all orders gain in addition to their two surges and their special ability. 

Why then don't Jasnah or Shallan infuse?  Maybe Shallan doesn't know how and Jasnah, if she knows how, hasn't needed to. 

 

This could be something a simple as the soulcasting orders not be able to hold stormlight but still be able to channel it. Therfore Jasnah and Shallan would not get the glowy eyes from holding stormlight themselves.

 

Windrunners and Stonewards, on the other hand,  have to use their own body as a storage medium first.

 

But, then again, Kaladins glowyness is still pretty subtle so it could be that neither kaladin, Shallan or Jasnah are far enough along to get the glowy eyes. 

 

Book 2 can't come soon enough... need more input!

Edited July 4, 2013 by MadRand