What Are You Reading, Part 2

[Zathoth]

2 minutes ago, Quadrophenia said:

It's Berserk if the main protagonist was Griffith XD

I am not sure how I feel about that... I'll give it a shot XD

[DSC01 he/him]

The Second Apocalypse is really, really good. I love it. The philosophical tangents are practically the main attraction, for me. I don't normally like anything so relentlessly grim, but it's just a really good series. 

 

[Quadrophenia]

19 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

The Second Apocalypse is really, really good. I love it. The philosophical tangents are practically the main attraction, for me. I don't normally like anything so relentlessly grim, but it's just a really good series. 

 

Same, but I do find the constant employment of rape as a dramatic device wears on me a bit.

Second Apocalypse is a series I appreciate and enjoy more intellectually than emotionally, if that makes sense.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Quadrophenia

[DSC01 he/him]

Well, normally, I'm none too pleased with that sort of thing, but it's not often used as a cheap way to motivate other characters and usually seems to work for the series. I think that it's there for its own sake--to be horrific because it is horrific, and we should be horrified. In part, the series is a statement on how real human history contains such atrocities, and the historical periods that are used as models for so many more lighthearted fantasy settings would have been rife with them. And, of course, it's a none-too-subtle critique of religion (particularly the Abrahamic faiths), with the implication being that the supposed heroes of the faith would have in fact been brutal men whose actions would be obscenely irredeemable in the reckoning of most modern people. That said, the rape orcs really don't have any historical analog and may be just a touch over the top...

[Quadrophenia]

3 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Well, normally, I'm none too pleased with that sort of thing, but it's not often used as a cheap way to motivate other characters and usually seems to work for the series. I think that it's there for its own sake--to be horrific because it is horrific, and we should be horrified. In part, the series is a statement on how real human history contains such atrocities, and the historical periods that are used as models for so many more lighthearted fantasy settings would have been rife with them. And, of course, it's a none-too-subtle critique of religion (particularly the Abrahamic faiths), with the implication being that the supposed heroes of the faith would have in fact been brutal men whose actions would be obscenely irredeemable in the reckoning of most modern people. That said, the rape orcs really don't have any historical analog and may be just a touch over the top...

There's a reason some circles call him the God-King of Edgelords.

The sranc wear floppy severed dicks on their heads. Which they stroke. For luck.

Its a little silly, you have to admit.

And I can't help but feel constructing a hyper exaggerated reality cherry picking the worst of the medieval ages to make the point "these things are bad, yo!" might be a bit on the nose. He still can't write women particularly well or find any roles for them in his society beyond prostitution or nobility. Or rape victim, really.

Fun fact, women in Spain had more rights than women in 19th century England. History's far more nuanced and interesting than reducing it to, "EVERYONE GOT RAPED ALL THE TIME," and I don't buy Bakker's notion he's exposing the reality of it. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

The philosophy and metaphysical examination are terrific... story and analogous history not so much.

[DSC01 he/him]

37 minutes ago, Quadrophenia said:

There's a reason some circles call him the God-King of Edgelords.

The sranc wear floppy severed dicks on their heads. Which they stroke. For luck.

Its a little silly, you have to admit.

And I can't help but feel constructing a hyper exaggerated reality cherry picking the worst of the medieval ages to make the point "these things are bad, yo!" might be a bit on the nose. He still can't write women particularly well or find any roles for them in his society beyond prostitution or nobility. Or rape victim, really.

Fun fact, women in Spain had more rights than women in 19th century England. History's far more nuanced and interesting than reducing it to, "EVERYONE GOT RAPED ALL THE TIME," and I don't buy Bakker's notion he's exposing the reality of it. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

The philosophy and metaphysical examination are terrific... story and analogous history not so much.

Yeah, that's true of medieval history, but I don't know that Bakker is among those authors who think that the only appropriate reaction the prevalence of the Ye Goode Olde Day trope is to go full Dung Ages. It seems more like the historical period he's aiming for is a couple of thousand years earlier (which, to be fair, still probably wasn't as bad as all that).

Also, despite the issues with the way he portrays women, I think that criticism of that portrayal often overlooks the fact that some of it is intentional as part of his critique of religion. The women in the story literally are imbued with less righteousness than the men. The path to damnation is more slippery for them, and they have less value as human beings in a spiritual sense. This is because the gods have decided that it is so (they are obviously supposed to be evil). It explicitly says that, too (I think it was in The White-Luck Warrior, but I can't remember). I think that the point there may be that, while actual history was not as bad for women as he portrays it, if the actual historical view that the gods (or God) elevated men above women spiritually were a true fact of the universe, then things would be that bad. 

Now, I'm sure we could veer off into a discussion on how accurate his views of the Abrahamic faiths' appraisal of women's value is. However, regardless of where one comes down on that subject, I don't think that Bakker is wholly ignorant of the doctrinal arguments. I think his response is just, "No. Screw you. You're saying men are better than women, and no flowery words or logic-bending arguments will make it any less ugly. I'm going to show you just how ugly it is." One can disagree with his stance, to be sure, but I wouldn't say that it's invalid. 

I didn't remember the part where the sranc wear floppy forehead phalli, but, well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Sexual obscenities is a huge part of the Second Apocalypse. Heck, I think they would make the Cenobites blush. The Big Bad of the series is pretty much described as being damned for all time and eternity exactly because they are deprived and obscene to such a point, that gods on the outskirts of space and time look in and think, "dude, that's messed up."

Which is contrasted with the pure intellectualism of the Dûnyain. The world can be viewed as a dialectic between the bass animalistic urges and intellectualism, which kinda muddies things since neither extreme pole its really defined as good (though I am certain that the obscene, perverted creatures are considered evil).

I've only read the first trilogy, mostly because I did not want to wait forever for the concluding volume of the Second series. Though now that that is within reach of finishing, I'll re-read and continue.

[Quadrophenia]

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

Yeah, that's true of medieval history, but I don't know that Bakker is among those authors who think that the only appropriate reaction the prevalence of the Ye Goode Olde Day trope is to go full Dung Ages. It seems more like the historical period he's aiming for is a couple of thousand years earlier (which, to be fair, still probably wasn't as bad as all that).

Also, despite the issues with the way he portrays women, I think that criticism of that portrayal often overlooks the fact that some of it is intentional as part of his critique of religion. The women in the story literally are imbued with less righteousness than the men. The path to damnation is more slippery for them, and they have less value as human beings in a spiritual sense. This is because the gods have decided that it is so (they are obviously supposed to be evil). It explicitly says that, too (I think it was in The White-Luck Warrior, but I can't remember). I think that the point there may be that, while actual history was not as bad for women as he portrays it, if the actual historical view that the gods (or God) elevated men above women spiritually were a true fact of the universe, then things would be that bad. 

Now, I'm sure we could veer off into a discussion on how accurate his views of the Abrahamic faiths' appraisal of women's value is. However, regardless of where one comes down on that subject, I don't think that Bakker is wholly ignorant of the doctrinal arguments. I think his response is just, "No. Screw you. You're saying men are better than women, and no flowery words or logic-bending arguments will make it any less ugly. I'm going to show you just how ugly it is." One can disagree with his stance, to be sure, but I wouldn't say that it's invalid. 

I didn't remember the part where the sranc wear floppy forehead phalli, but, well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I get that, certainly, and it's one of the things I find fascinating and philosophically compelling... on the other hand, one might make the argument it grants him a legitimate excuse to write male characters with greater ease and efficiency. Not to mention it forces every woman to run through a repetitive arc that gets old after the first or so book.

56 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said:

Sexual obscenities is a huge part of the Second Apocalypse. Heck, I think they would make the Cenobites blush. The Big Bad of the series is pretty much described as being damned for all time and eternity exactly because they are deprived and obscene to such a point, that gods on the outskirts of space and time look in and think, "dude, that's messed up."

Which is contrasted with the pure intellectualism of the Dûnyain. The world can be viewed as a dialectic between the bass animalistic urges and intellectualism, which kinda muddies things since neither extreme pole its really defined as good (though I am certain that the obscene, perverted creatures are considered evil).

I've only read the first trilogy, mostly because I did not want to wait forever for the concluding volume of the Second series. Though now that that is within reach of finishing, I'll re-read and continue.

Oh, absolutely, no question about it. Bakker has gone on record with his belief the modern symbol of evil is the serial rapist, hence every act of evil---even the casual acts of evil---is sexually obscene in nature.

I wouldn't mind so much if he were better at writing character drama. I'm not convinced remotely every instance of rape isn't lazy and convenient.

Like I said, it's why I think the series is what would happen if you drained the humour and humanity out of A Song of Ice and Fire or Berserk, two series that are no strangers to grim nihilism, but at least they knew how to work character arcs and use sexual violence in a more meaningful, impactful way. With Bakker's body of work as a whole, sheer overuse has robbed it of any and all impact or narrative merit. It just makes me think the guy's a one trick pony when it comes to drama.

Does it make sense to you guys I find the thematic core of his work more engaging than the stories themselves, to an extent? Intellectual engagement vs emotional investment, you might say.

[DSC01 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Quadrophenia said:

Does it make sense to you guys I find the thematic core of his work more engaging than the stories themselves, to an extent? Intellectual engagement vs emotional investment, you might say.

Yeah, definitely. I think that was most evident in the latest volume, but it may also be that it just seemed more that way to me because I read The Great Ordeal immediately after completing a Wheel of Time reread, which is pretty far at the other end of the spectrum in terms of grimdark sensibilities (in that it has none). In fact, it's nearly an example of the aforementioned Ye Goode Olde Day trope. 

[Quadrophenia]

17 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Yeah, definitely. I think that was most evident in the latest volume, but it may also be that it just seemed more that way to me because I read The Great Ordeal immediately after completing a Wheel of Time reread, which is pretty far at the other end of the spectrum in terms of grimdark sensibilities (in that it has none). In fact, it's nearly an example of the aforementioned Ye Goode Olde Day trope. 

Colour me suspicious, but I can't help but think a good many of the forum goers here miiiight be TVTropers, heh.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Quadrophenia

[Zathoth]

I am guilty of being on Tv Tropes way too often.

I am not actually signed up to it, I just tend to get stuck in there.

[Oversleep]

12 minutes ago, Morzathoth said:

I am guilty of being on Tv Tropes way too often.

I am not actually signed up to it, I just tend to get stuck in there.

It's important not to allow tabs exceed fifty.

[Zathoth]

3 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

It's important not to allow tabs exceed fifty.

That I can usually manage.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

23 minutes ago, Quadrophenia said:

Colour me suspicious, but I can't help but think a good many of the forum goers here miiiight be TVTropers, heh.

I avoid it like the plague.

Sexual violence in literature is a tough subject to get a hold on. Particularly since reaction to it seems incredibly disproportionate. For example, the one rape depicted in The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever tends to be viewed far less favorably than all the rape in Wheel of Time, Malazan, or A Song of Ice and Fire combined! It seems to ultimately depend on whether the reader thinks it was worthwhile, that what the author had to say was good and that plot element contributed to it.

Since the Second Apocalypse hasn't been finished, that means that there is only the hope such will be the case.

[Quadrophenia]

23 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said:

I avoid it like the plague.

Sexual violence in literature is a tough subject to get a hold on. Particularly since reaction to it seems incredibly disproportionate. For example, the one rape depicted in The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever tends to be viewed far less favorably than all the rape in Wheel of Time, Malazan, or A Song of Ice and Fire combined! It seems to ultimately depend on whether the reader thinks it was worthwhile, that what the author had to say was good and that plot element contributed to it.

Since the Second Apocalypse hasn't been finished, that means that there is only the hope such will be the case.

I think the difference is that Bakker, by his own admission, writes purposefully pornographic detail in some vague pretension to "deconstruct" the male gaze... which, really, is like trying to stop a raging inferno with a soaked rag, that (at least for me) it grates on me after the 135th rape. 

We know sexual violence is bad, Bakker. Some of us have lived through it. You haven't. You're saying nothing new, offering no fresh insight. I think that's what bugs me about it more than anything. Add to that the aforementioned and deliberate lack of humanity that colours the narrative and so much of the point falls by the wayside.

Meanwhile, I think the reason why Thomas Covenant gets more crap over it than ASOIAF or other similar series? I can't speak for Wheel of Time or Malazan, haven't read either yet, but ASOIAF has enough distance between the act and the reader that it isn't as disturbing as being in Thomas's shoes when he cruel exploits and violates his, well, fan girl.

That's my take on it, at least.

By the way, love your avatar!

Edited September 20, 2016 by Quadrophenia

[DSC01 he/him]

Wait, what are we talking about? I was on TV Tropes...

[Patar he/him]

On 9/17/2016 at 3:18 PM, Oversleep said:

Blood of Elves, huh? Did you by any chance read the Witcher short stories? They are good on their own (some say they are better than the Witcher pentalogy) and chronologically take place before the Witcher pentalogy. And they provide context and backstory.

I strongly recommend to read short stories first. First The Last Wish, then Sword Of Destiny, and then you can jump straight into Blood of Elves and subsequent books.

I actually read somewhere that reading the short stories was important to understand some of what happens in the subsequent books. Is there somewhere I can buy The Last Wish and Sword of Destiny together?  

[Sunbird she/her]

Finished Impulse, the third book in Steven Gould's Jumper series. Now moving on (finally!) to Fury & Light, the next book in Chris Stewart's The Great and Terrible series that I have been meaning to read for seriously like a year.

[Oversleep]

13 hours ago, Patar said:

I actually read somewhere that reading the short stories was important to understand some of what happens in the subsequent books. Is there somewhere I can buy The Last Wish and Sword of Destiny together?  

Well, I don't know where do you live and I live in Poland, so Witcher is in every bookstore in multiple versions So I can't help you with that (Wikipedia says they were published in English, though)

And I think you got me wrong: The Last Wish and Sword of Destiny are not short stories (well, there are also short stories with those titles), these are collections of short stories. Each of those antologies is about as long or longer than the Blood of Elves.

The Last Wish contains six stories + one overaraching framing story. 290 pages long. It should be read first. It contains the very first Witcher stories.

Sword of Destiny contains six stories and is about 360 pages long. It should be read just before the Blood of Elves.

Good luck on getting them

[AliasSheep]

So I finished yesterday a book called Dark by Paul Arvidson.  It's self-published, and was pretty decent.  Also I know the author. Hehe.

Now I'm reading Consider Phlebas, by Iain M. Banks.  Because Culture, and I'm really excited to get into it.

[Straw he/him]

Stayed up all night reading The Warded Man from start to finish.

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

Avooblis, Bartamaeus, Riftwar Saga

[Sunbird she/her]

@Straw That one's been on my list for a while, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I gather from your all-nighter that you liked it a lot?

Also I'm now reading The Sweet Sister by C David Belt. He wrote himself a cameo in the early chapters, which highly amused me.

[Straw he/him]

You would be correct in guessing that.

[Sunbird she/her]

@Straw Ok, I guess I'll move it to higher priority on my never-ending list of things to read. XD