Devotion, Dominion, and Magic on Sel

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

To add to this - I think that probably there is both geographic region, and cognative region.

 

So maybe the reason that the Dakhor Monks can use their power everywhere is that they see their natural region as the entire world - Fjordell dominates.

 

That thought just came to me while reading this.

[Pathfinder]

To add to this - I think that probably there is both geographic region, and cognative region.

 

So maybe the reason that the Dakhor Monks can use their power everywhere is that they see their natural region as the entire world - Fjordell dominates.

 

That thought just came to me while reading this.

Just the way you wrote that made me think, for me devotion implies giving, dominion implies taking. so in that lense, it would make sense for dominion to work in other lands, in order to take or conquer. while devotion sounds like love to me, which as the old saying goes "home is where the heart is". 

[happyman he/him]

I really like this theory.  I have seen the catch-phrase tossed around a few times, but this is the most comprehensive honest-to-goodness theory thread I've properly seen.  Well done.  It's easily the best description I've seen of how the two would work, while still raising interesting questions.

[soulcastJam he/him]

I really like this theory, but I see a hole in it.  The names of the shards are based upon the primary personality trait that the shard pushes on the shard holder.  How would you describe someone's personality whose primary personality trait was being regionish.  Racist?  =)  Except racist implies that I have a region/society that I identify with and I look down on people outside of it.  Whereas Dominion (by this theory) is more inclusive of all the regions.  I just don't see how a personality can focus on the trait of dominions.

 

Any thoughts?

[Windrunner he/him]

I'd probably go with nationalistic, personally. I think it has less to do with race, and more to do with where you identify belonging. It fits in with Dilaf's extreme zealous love of Fjorden as well.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Apologies for the necro, but after worldhopping to the Cosmere Short Stories forum and reading the Sixth of the Dusk timeline topic, I've been hit with interesting questions/ideas that relate to this theory: If this theory proves correct, is it possible for the Selians unite under one banner (not any of the kingdoms/Dominions but as one people/race/planet; Selian), would this perhaps affect how Selish Shadesmar acts/reacts, as well as provide a way for the Selians to use their magic anywhere on the planet, like the Fjordellians/Dakhor Monks do as Horatio said in the below quote? 

 

To add to this - I think that probably there is both geographic region, and cognative region.

 

So maybe the reason that the Dakhor Monks can use their power everywhere is that they see their natural region as the entire world - Fjordell dominates.

 

That thought just came to me while reading this.

 

I mean, I know Selish Shadesmar is a mess due to all the unguided power, and all the regional magic interpretations can't be helping surely, but if they changed the Cognitive/Physical perceptions  to "I am of Sel, from this area" (as a very basic example) instead of just the area, could this have any effect?

Edited July 27, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Moogle]

Since I guess we're necroing this thread, we know the original theory is incorrect from this WoB:

Q: I assumed the shard Dominion was the reason why magic's are geographically and/or geopolitically based. Is there a different, essentially unrelated reason?
A: Yes, there is a different reason.

[Confused]

Moogle, I believe the "different reason" for territorial fragmentation on Sel is Dominion's splintering. Dominion's moon shattered leaving, among other things, soulstone in MaiPon and probably other bits of the moon elsewhere. Wherever that moon fell, it imposed a different land-based command requirement in that region.

 

As you know, I've speculated elsewhere about the nature of Dev/Dom magic, and you rightly reminded me that the Dor comes from both Shards. So here's my explanation for Sel:

1. Dominion defines the command. Each command -- whether Aons or soulstamps -- carries with it all the information necessary for its execution.
2. Post-splintering, wherever a fragment of Dominion's moon landed, that region (however defined) now imposes a different cognitive command from that required by other regions. Perhaps Fjordell is so powerful because that region received the largest moon fragment with the largest dose of Dominion's power. As Sazed says, when we speak of a Shard's "body" (the moon), we mean its power.
3. The Dor is the investiture used to carry out the command. I'm persuaded that post-splintering the two Shards' splinters finally "married." Their mandate is to work together, symbiotically. Therefore, they continued to. (And I'm not addressing for now the splinters' apparent aberrant behavior in the Cognitive Realm -- how would you like to be pulled apart on your wedding night?)

[Orlion Blight he/him]

 

Moogle, I believe the "different reason" for territorial fragmentation on Sel is Dominion's splintering. Dominion's moon shattered leaving, among other things, soulstone in MaiPon and probably other bits of the moon elsewhere. Wherever that moon fell, it imposed a different land-based command requirement in that region.

 

 

I like this theory, but I do have one question: where do we hear about a Selian moon shattering? I do not recall this, but it's also been a long time since I've read Elantris (and I'm waiting for the 10th anniversary edition to re-read it!)

[+Authweight]

My guess is that the Dakhor monks would have trouble transforming themselves further away from Fjordell (IIRC their monastery is near the capital). The reason the Dakhor magic works in Elabtris and Teod is because the magic causes a transformation that remains even after they leave.

Although you do see them teleport, and you see Dilaf disrupt AonDor, so there seems to be some active magic happening out there. But my hunch is still that location is important to making the transformation as powerful as possible, hence their locating the monastery near the capital.

[Ari he/him]

My guess is that the Dakhor monks would have trouble transforming themselves further away from Fjordell (IIRC their monastery is near the capital). The reason the Dakhor magic works in Elabtris and Teod is because the magic causes a transformation that remains even after they leave.

Although you do see them teleport, and you see Dilaf disrupt AonDor, so there seems to be some active magic happening out there. But my hunch is still that location is important to making the transformation as powerful as possible, hence their locating the monastery near the capital.

 

They talk about having to sacrifice monks to teleport themselves, so I think that explains the active use of powers. The resistance to Aon'Dor is likely a passive effect from the transformation.

 

 

I'm more concerned though about figuring out what's going on with the regionalisation of the investiture on Sel if it's not related to Dominion's intent. Unless a similar regionalisation happens on Roshar with Honour's power, (and I don't think it does from what we've seen so far) it can't be a result of the Splintering of the shard's power, so what's going on? Is it a combination of the two? That seems unlikely that Brandon would rule out dominion the way he did if so. Sounds like something we haven't caught is going on there- I may have to re-read Elantris and the Emperor's Soul to see if I can find any hints there.

[Witborn]

On a very recent reread of Elantris, I noticed something. There is a scene where Sarene is looking at the stars and notices the constellations of the aons. The aon directly overhead is aon Rao, which is the aon that Elantis and the four cities around it form. Now I know that the same would appear overhead for every region on the same hemisphere but I also know that Brandon likes to play with normal rules of astronomy (like Roshar). It made me wonder if those constellations had something to do with the regionalization of the magic on Sel.

[Ari he/him]

On a very recent reread of Elantris, I noticed something. There is a scene where Sarene is looking at the stars and notices the constellations of the aons. The aon directly overhead is aon Rao, which is the aon that Elantis and the four cities around it form. Now I know that the same would appear overhead for every region on the same hemisphere but I also know that Brandon likes to play with normal rules of astronomy (like Roshar). It made me wonder if those constellations had something to do with the regionalization of the magic on Sel.

 

That's interesting, so you think you'd need a booster Aon that matched a nearby constellation?

 

It could also be a thematic thing Brandon included, where she's noticing Raoden's constellation to remind us that he's alive and she doesn't know. I'll have a look through for any other mentions of constellations in my read-through just in case.

[Witborn]

That's interesting, so you think you'd need a booster Aon that matched a nearby constellation?

Yeah that's why I'm thinking. So each region would have a city to math geography to match constellation.

It could also be a thematic thing Brandon included, where she's noticing Raoden's constellation to remind us that he's alive and she doesn't know. I'll have a look through for any other mentions of constellations in my read-through just in case.

I can definitely see this as a reason. It could also be to draw us to the importance of aon Rao to te region and the story. I'm not sold on the constellation reason behind the regional magic on Sel, but that scene did stand out to me when I read it.

[Ascendant Warrior he/him]

_{I always saw this as simple world-building.  After all, our world has given names and structure to series of stars that are not related in any way.  It's likely that Selians have done the same thing, but instead of looking for a pattern that is vaguely bear-shaped, they look for something vaguely shaped like Aons.}

Edited September 1, 2015 by Ascendant Warrior

[Ari he/him]

_{I always saw this as simple world-building.  After all, our world has given names and structure to series of stars that are not related in any way.  It's likely that Selians have done the same thing, but instead of looking for a pattern that is vaguely bear-shaped, they look for something vaguely shaped like Aons.}

 

It definitely merits asking Brandon how exactly the constellation Rao matches the Aon Rao. Because if they're exactly the same thing, there's something interesting going on there beyond coincedence. If it's just like our own constellations, well then that's worldbuilding.

 

I think worldbuilding is likely the answer, but when you've exhausted all the answers that seem to make sense to explain what's going on, you have to start leaping on small details like this and finding if you can back them up with anything else.

[Oudeis he/him]

I do find it interesting... some aons are based on being up in the sky looking down at the ground, and the placement of things amidst geography, but other aons are based on Sel's placement in the galaxy, and the way stars appear if you're on the ground looking up. Very curious. If a star went nova, would Aon Ene stop working?

[Ari he/him]

I do find it interesting... some aons are based on being up in the sky looking down at the ground, and the placement of things amidst geography, but other aons are based on Sel's placement in the galaxy, and the way stars appear if you're on the ground looking up. Very curious. If a star went nova, would Aon Ene stop working?

 

Hah, and if it did, would it stop working as soon as the star went nova, or when the light reached Sel? Elantrians better hope the latter if they want to be able to correct any star-based Aons.

[natc]

Well, the stars themselves won't be anywhere near the location you perceive them to be since they are moving. Plus they actually aren't next to each other, if it's like IRL constellations, but just line up as a picture when viewed from one side two-dimensionally. So probably the visible pattern and not the actual one.

[Oudeis he/him]

Plus they actually aren't next to each other, if it's like IRL constellations, but just line up as a picture when viewed from one side two-dimensionally.

 

Well, yes. I think most of us get that.

 

Hrm. Would the Arelon-geography Aons work better if made slightly convex? Would stellar-based aons (ene, for example) work better if done in proportion to actual stellar distance (though presumably that would be unfeasibly difficult)?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Interesting thought I had over in the Frost topic; The start of the Second Letter has 'Frost' say to Hoid "Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?" and I was trying to think about all the notable times we've seen Hoid near gemstones/jewels (apart from Roshar) and I was thinking back to TES and the moon sceptre and we aren't provided with a description of what it looks. We know the Sceptre and/or Moon Rock are involved with the proximity problem via http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/27189-why-is-hoid-on-sel/?p=273476 this post so i'm theorising that the gemstone in question is in the moon sceptre 

 

(Crackpot theory; If the sceptre actually has a gem, it could actually be a Dawnshard given their capability of binding any creature 'voidish or mortal' which i translate to anything Invested and the thing that is bound could be comparable to a splinter of Devotion and Dominion at godspren level.) 

 

An interesting question to ask would be if pre-Shard death, did Selish folk suffer from distance decay

Edited September 12, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[hoidhunter he/him]

So...this is a little off topic but...It's always bugged me that everyone refers to domi (obviously dominion) as their god...but no one makes any mention of Devi that I've noticed.  Is there already an answer to this that I just haven't seen on shard...ideas?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

So...this is a little off topic but...It's always bugged me that everyone refers to domi (obviously dominion) as their god...but no one makes any mention of Devi that I've noticed.  Is there already an answer to this that I just haven't seen on shard...ideas?

 

It's kinda funny as reading from the Aon descriptions on theoryland, Aon Omi (Domi's root) means/represents benevolence and love. Seeing as Devotion's and Dominion holders were called Aona/Skai, and from the following text, you could argue that Domi is a fusion of the two, especially as most of Selish cultural influences originate with the Jindoese

 

 

AON OMI

Meaning

In its most basic form, Omi is used to represent love and benevolence. It is a common root Aon for a wide variety of words, including affection, care, passion, piety, zeal, and some synonyms of loyalty.

A complex Aon with strong symmetry, the Aon has often been used as an example of balance and even perfection. The great AonDor scholar Enelan of the fourth century called it "The most perfect of Aons, fully incorporating the base of Aon Aon and spinning it into a complex icon that is artful and complicated, yet somehow simple at the same time."

In later centuries, the symbol has come to mean not only love, but divinity as well, an association created by the Korathi church's appropriation of the Aon. Many devout Korathi also regard the symbol as representing the potential unification of all mankind through peace, temperance, and love.

 

History and Use

Aon Omi is best known as the official symbol of the Korathi church in Arelon. It was chosen by Korath (known as KoWho in JinDo) himself to represent the church and God. Scholars of the time say that Korath made the decision late in his life, after decades spent preaching his interpretations of the tenets of Shu-Keseg (which eventually became the Korathi religion) in Arelon and Elantris itself.

The choice was shocking to many, as the young Korathi devout saw the Elantrians and their worship as a competing religion. Their Aons, the basis for Elantrian magic an power, were then regarded as heathen symbols. Korath was always bothered by this competitive streak in his believers, and it is widely accepted that he picked an Aon to represent God and his religion as an attempt to show that all people were acceptable beneath the blanket of the Korathi doctrines. He himself called the Aon a "Thing of Beauty" and asked an Elantrian smith of his acquaintance to craft a silver pendant for him bearing the symbol.

That event, and the subsequent adoption of Aon Omi by the Korathi church, led to the odd relationship between the Elantrians and the Korathi religion which took root in their homeland. (Though, following Korath's death, his right-hand man and follower ShanVen moved the religion's center of operations to Teod instead, where the young monarchy there had embraced Shu-Korath as its official religion.)

Over the years, many other Aons have been adopted by the Korathi religion, but this one—Aon Omi—has remained their most powerful and important symbol. It is used extensively in Korathi religious services, and pendants bearing Aon Omi are commonly worn by the devout. (Many simply call them Korathi pendants, or Korathi religious pendants.) Such pendants are commonly exchanged during Korathi wedding services. (See the end of ELANTRIS the novel for an example.)

Many Korathi priests now look at the use of Aons by their religion as a symbol of the potential unity of all mankind, when different beliefs, sects, and cultures will be drawn together through sincere affection for one another.

 

AonDor

Aon Omi is a powerful Aon, and before the fall of Elantris could perform powerful magics. When drawn it puts out a powerful and pure white light; any who are touched by this light find their negative emotions wiped away, replaced by a sense of serenity and peace. It is difficult indeed to maintain a sense of hatred while Aon Omi is in force.

So powerful is this Aon, however, that using it requires much of the Elantrian who draws it. The Aon will be weak unless the one drawing it feels a sincere affection for those around him, making this Aon very difficult to use in tense situations. This strange requirement has fascinated AonDor practitioners for centuries, as it is one of the few Aons which requires something other than drawing skill from its Elantrian.

Aon Omi is also used in other places in AonDor equations. It can be used to tie other Aon chains together, and is also a weaker power modifier, if used in the correct way.

 

From TL: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=768#9

Edited September 13, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[natc]

So...this is a little off topic but...It's always bugged me that everyone refers to domi (obviously dominion) as their god...but no one makes any mention of Devi that I've noticed. Is there already an answer to this that I just haven't seen on shard...ideas?

Domi is definitely closer to Devotion (most of the doctrine, plus Aon Omi being love as stated) though is likely both because the other splinter religion derived from the same source has the whole domination and conquest thing going on.

Remember, they aren't speaking English.

[Corax]

It's an old set of religions and an older language... I suspect that Omi may have multiple meanings. In essence, you're both right. The Aon Omi (and thus Domi) is a reference to Dominion, but in a roundabout way. Since AonDor is of Aona, if she loved Skai it could make sense that her representations of his name or essence would be, in her mind or heart, synonymous with love.

At least this is my pet theory.

PS: please forgive typos, due to posting from my phone.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Corax