Armies

[Oudeis he/him]

Which would be the superior fighting force, koloss or lifeless?

[natc]

Are these normal lifeless, or Kalad's Phantoms?

If it's normal lifeless I vote for koloss being easier to order around in an emergency, stronger, and tougher. If it's the phantoms, well . . . good luck ever stopping those.

The best possible compromise without the Phantoms is, of course, lifeless koloss :3

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

The best possible compromise without the Phantoms is, of course, lifeless koloss :3

 Congrats, you the only way you can break the internet even more is if they were lifeless koloss statues

Edited July 11, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Voidus]

Depends on numbers too obviously, if the armies were the same size then Koloss would wipe the lifeless out pretty easily, but a lifeless army 2 or three times bigger might manage it.

[Oudeis he/him]

I had initially assumed even numbers, but let's think about it logically...

 

It takes two men to create a Lifeless; one corpse, one Breath. (You could be more efficient, kill the man once he gives up his Breath, use his corpse for another Lifeless, but a minimum is one Lifeless per two mortal men.)

 

It takes five men to make a Koloss. So, if either side started with ten thousand men, that would be two thousand Koloss but a minimum of five thousand Lifeless. Possibly more, but also remember that ideal Lifeless soldiers will be people who were soldiers in real life while any human will be a Koloss, so frankly I'd be willing to even lower that number.

 

Given all this (and I'm open to people offering reasons to adjust this number), let's assume that the Lifeless army outnumbers the Koloss 2 to 1.

 

The Koloss are stronger and tougher, but they fight bluntly with no strategy, even when controlled, and predictably; they always must first work themselves up to the blood frenzy, then they attack in a predictable pattern. The Lifeless can be ordered with less immediacy, but can obey a bunch of orders, and will actually obey them, unlike the Koloss who are frequently difficult to control when they're killing.

 

I'm going to assume two armies clashing on an open field, because any other specifics might give the advantage to one side or the other; chance, good intelligence, or a brilliant commander might affect the circumstances of the battle and give one side or the other the advantage, so I'm just proposing a neutral field to see which army is better than the other.

 

So. Koloss have raw power. Lifeless have numbers and skill. Recall that when the army of two thousand skaa-with-weapons (they were not soldiers) charged the Koloss line, they were able to kill a quarter of their own number in minutes before the Koloss had the chance to frenzy. If four thousand Lifeless were able to even only replicate that feat, they would kill half the Koloss army as the battle was beginning.

 

((EDIT for clarity which I feel is lacking: Two thousand skaa, which even their commander says are one thousand skaa with some training, and another thousand who know which end of a sword to hold, killed 500 koloss; for every four men, one koloss died. If Lifeless are at least as good as that, and we assume four thousand lifeless, then if they can attack before the Koloss have frenzied they will kill a thousand koloss (one for every four Lifeless) which is half of the proposed koloss army.))

 

In addition, there's the matter of control. One person can control a Koloss army, but if he wants to share control, he needs other Mistborn, Soothers, or Rioters. Someone Commanding the Lifeless need only give out some Command Phrases, or tell the Lifeless, "Obey orders from this man," or, "Obey orders from anyone wearing red with purple", and suddenly your army has sergeants and squad captains who command total loyalty and can adapt to the flow of the battlefield. Even such allomantic allies as the person in charge of the army might be able to hand control over to, would have difficulty giving the Koloss specific orders; if memory serves, when Vin is captured in Fadrex city, she tries to make the Koloss simply jump in place to get Elend's attention; they're not even distracted by the blood frenzy, and they still don't understand what it is she wants them to do.

 

I'm personally going with Lifeless. They can adapt, or at least follow adaptable orders from generals. Their strategies can evolve and change; Koloss cannot. I think my assumption on the numbers balance is fair, but I'm open to valid reasons why they should be adjusted one way or the other.

 

Any other thoughts?

Edited July 11, 2015 by Oudeis

[natc]

Congrats, you the only way you can break the internet even more is if they lifeless koloss statues

If we soulcast a koloss into metal or stonr while retaining its organs and muscles' structure and then awakened it as a lifeless (well, it was alive) . . .

Plate it with some of that shardblade-proof substance too for good measure. With aluminum plating as well. Won't hurt.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

If we soulcast a koloss into metal or stonr while retaining its organs and muscles' structure and then awakened it as a lifeless (well, it was alive) . . .

Plate it with some of that shardblade-proof substance too for good measure. With aluminum plating as well. Won't hurt.

Here that sound? That is the sound of the internets of the mutliverse spontaneously breaking

[Oudeis he/him]

A few additional thoughts:

 

First, similarities. Both are armies without several of the traditional weaknesses armies have. Neither require much in the way of supplies. One doesn't eat, one can eat dirt. No morale problems, no deserters. Theoretically possible but tricky for someone to sneak into the lifeless camp pretending to be lifeless, but I'm gonna go ahead and say even Wayne couldn't pretend to be a koloss. No guards getting bored on watch. No sloppy half-hearted work. Orders obeyed immediately without question. Do koloss get sick? What specific maladies are lifeless subject to?

 

Second, fear. It's stated frequently that koloss fight with fear as much as with any other weapon. People tend to break and run when they see them and are killed as they flee. Elend's advice to the skaa of Vetitan is to not fear them. Vin walks Human through the city, saying that the more people get used to koloss, the less they'll fear them, and the more effective they'll be. Lifeless won't fear koloss.

 

By contrast, not many people fear lifeless in a panicky sort of way. The Idrians hold them in superstitious trepidation, but that's never brought up as supernatural, barely understood monsters who strike panic. I dunno, this might be one of my weaker points. Much is made in Mistborn about how Koloss attack with fear, and it's not brought up when you'd expect it to be in Warbreaker. The Idrian gathering is upset to see lifeless guards come to arrest them, but not panicked.

 

I'm personally leaning to Lifeless.

 

Lifeless Koloss... would that work? Would they have the benefit of the iron spikes? Would the spikes still have charge, and would they re-bond to whatever happens to the new spiritweb of the lifeless? Or would they have the form of koloss without the strength? If their spiritwebs maintain their hemalurgic boost, would it also affect their personality as it does koloss? Would you have wild, uncontrollable lifeless filled with bloodlust?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

For the topic at hand: I would say Lifeless if we're talking Phantoms or a very close fight, determined by circumstances, if it were normal lifeless purely because if a Koloss takes out the one human/Returned giving Commands, then the Lifeless will be locked into the last order given. Also, depending on Koloss morale (like near outnumbered/outbeaten circumstances, how quick they bloodlust) they might just overwhelm them. Koloss do have a very long range, especially with long, broadswords so providinf how adept Lifeless are at being directed by tactics (+ can they use other weapons for better support, i mean they obviously can't do cavalry but i reckon they could do a good spike turtle formation).

 

As for making Koloss lifeless, I guess it depends on the strength of the Haemalurgic Charge among a few other factors like;

Do spikes decay inside a dead body or do they kinda reach an equilibrium where there is no benefit but the charge is still the same?

 

How strong would the Breath have to be to counter Ruin's possible innate investiture as well as how adept does the Soulcaster/Awakener/Re-Forger have to be to counter said possible investiture and perform such a feat (do Koloss/Kandra even have innate investiture or does that come from the spike?)

 

With personality, it is hard to say, given how Breath does give Lifeless some semblance of awareness rarely so perhaps upon death then Awakened, the spiritweb might be blank so that piece of sDNA in the spike might actually naturally incorporate itself into the blank spirit web

 

 

 

If we do as Natc says and possibly Soulcast/Re-Forge the Koloss main body structure (Skin/Muscle) into perhaps metal/stone

Edited July 11, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[natc]

Koloss-blooded lack spikes but still seem to exhibit some of the modifications, probably due to the mutations being so extreme as to become permanent and inheritable. Nobody ever kills a koloss and notices it shrink again or anything, so a lifeless koloss should still be somewhat superhuman even if the spikes cease function. Though perhaps with strength more accurate to their muscle mass.

[Dunkum he/him]

Koloss-blooded lack spikes but still seem to exhibit some of the modifications, probably due to the mutations being so extreme as to become permanent and inheritable. Nobody ever kills a koloss and notices it shrink again or anything, so a lifeless koloss should still be somewhat superhuman even if the spikes cease function. Though perhaps with strength more accurate to their muscle mass.

I was under the impression that Koloss blooded individuals only came about because Harmony altered the Koloss into an actual breeding population at the end of the original Mistborn trilogy.  which brings up another question: are we talking original Final Empire era koloss, or the later modified versions?  and is there a noticeable difference between the two for the purposes of this exercise?

[Oudeis he/him]

which brings up another question: are we talking original Final Empire era koloss, or the later modified versions?  and is there a noticeable difference between the two for the purposes of this exercise?

 

For purposes of this exercise, I'm gonna say Ashworld koloss, based entirely on the fact that we know more about them than we know about the other kind.

 

For the topic at hand: I would say Lifeless if we're talking Phantoms or a very close fight, determined by circumstances, if it were normal lifeless purely because if a Koloss takes out the one human/Returned giving Commands, then the Lifeless will be locked into the last order given. Also, depending on Koloss morale (like near outnumbered/outbeaten circumstances, how quick they bloodlust) they might just overwhelm them. Koloss do have a very long range, especially with long, broadswords so providinf how adept Lifeless are at being directed by tactics (+ can they use other weapons for better support, i mean they obviously can't do cavalry but i reckon they could do a good spike turtle formation).

 

Eh. I'm gonna kind of disagree here. You're assuming Koloss will have the tactics to break through the Lifeless lines and take out the general. Also, see above, an advantage of lifeless is that it's much, much easier to establish organizational redundancy (i.e., twelve people can all have the Command Phrase and be directing different sections of the army).

 

It's established that controlling Koloss is not like controlling a video game character, and that you have even less control when they're in the blood frenzy. They just attack, literally whoever is in front of them, regardless of their orders. This becomes a huge plot point in the book. Marsh is able to break Ruin's own control at one point because even Ruin's direct influence isn't enough to counter Marsh's blood frenzy. There's no way someone other than Ruin could control the koloss well enough to specifically order them in real tactics. Koloss are iconic for predictable, boring attack patterns without deviation.

 

If anything, I wonder if this could be turned around. The koloss are far more likely to be controlled by a single person. Granted, that person will by definition be an allomancer. If he's mistborn, rather than a soother or rioter, he'd be pretty hard to kill. Also, he need not get as close as, presumably, the person controlling the lifeless would need to. Still, he or she would be a linchpin in the army, a potential weakness in a way the commanders of the Lifeless army would not be.

 

Not sure I agree with the "morale" thing, honestly I'm not really sure what you're saying here. They've got the bloodlust or boredom. In bloodlust they're deadly, in boredom they're not. Do you think there's an additional level of bloodlust? Do you have anything from the books which would support this theory? Also, it's a trope of fantasy that passion equals competence; in this case I might see the argument being made since the koloss never fight with tactics anyway, so it's not like they'd fall into the overcommitting trap like Eshonai did when she felt the Thrill, but I still don't buy that they are anything less than as fully committed as possible once they're in the blood frenzy.

 

You speak of koloss having very long range... I assume you mean reach? Since they fight only with melee weapons or, very rarely by tossing rocks. Yes, they've got long reach, but without tactics it's difficult to capitalize on this advantage. And most koloss won't have reach all that insane. I fully agree that individual koloss are better fighters than individual Lifeless, but I think the Lifeless capacity for tactics will mean they more frequently win. As time goes on, the Lifeless strategies will adapt; the koloss won't.

 

Koloss-blooded lack spikes but still seem to exhibit some of the modifications, probably due to the mutations being so extreme as to become permanent and inheritable. Nobody ever kills a koloss and notices it shrink again or anything, so a lifeless koloss should still be somewhat superhuman even if the spikes cease function. Though perhaps with strength more accurate to their muscle mass.

 

I was actually thinking about this, how killing a koloss doesn't revert them back to human. Remember that hemalurgy changes your spiritweb, and the physical changes are a manifestation of this. We know too little of the spiritual realm to guess what might be happening. What happens to the spiritweb of a normal lifeless? What happens to your body's spiritweb when you die? How much of you is left? What happens to a koloss spiritweb when it dies? We apparently know that the spikes in Inquisitors don't "die" when the Inquisitor does. Would a lifeless have the same bindpoints? Would the iron spikes work the same way? Would the body even be able to function considering the changes to the spiritweb? Would a Lifeless Koloss undergo even more changes? Would you have to use enough Breath to replicate the hemalurgy in order to Awaken a Lifeless koloss? If I knew more about hemalurgy, could I deliberately Awaken a body into a Lifeless, with modifications to its spiritweb which would replicate iron hemalurgy?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

By the morale point, I could have sworn there was a very very small mention of should a Koloss not be in a bloody frenzy and it realised it was in an winnable situation, it was possible for them to feel fear? Or do i have hyperactive imagination and completely imagined that whole scen. (I don't know, i'm due a re-read soon anyway).

 

In terms of Lifeless management though, surely they'd have messengers to relay order Commands otherwise i doubt the commanders would be able to read the flow of the battle? (the original assumption of one person was purely because in Warbreaker, it seemed like they just ordered the Lifeless to just march on Idris, no mention of setting up a command tent up upon arrival or any other human company were going with them etc etc) But wasn't Ruin's control broken when he was weaker, because not even Vin or Elend could have ripped away the control of them and Ruin seemed to display perfect control even when they were blood frenzied at the last battle.

 

Yeah, i meant reach. ^^

[Dunkum he/him]

By the morale point, I could have sworn there was a very very small mention of should a Koloss not be in a bloody frenzy and it realised it was in an winnable situation, it was possible for them to feel fear? Or do i have hyperactive imagination and completely imagined that whole scen. (I don't know, i'm due a re-read soon anyway).

 

In terms of Lifeless management though, surely they'd have messengers to relay order Commands otherwise i doubt the commanders would be able to read the flow of the battle? (the original assumption of one person was purely because in Warbreaker, it seemed like they just ordered the Lifeless to just march on Idris, no mention of setting up a command tent up upon arrival or any other human company were going with them etc etc) But wasn't Ruin's control broken when he was weaker, because not even Vin or Elend could have ripped away the control of them and Ruin seemed to display perfect control even when they were blood frenzied at the last battle.

 

Yeah, i meant reach. ^^

In Warbreaker, the point of sending the lifeless against Idris wasn't really to win, it was to scare.  they didn't need command tents or anything, because the people doing it didn't really care.  I don't think we actually ever see anything like a full-on lifeless battle.

 

as to the Koloss, I don't think Vin or Elend were strong enough to wrest control away from Ruin, but that doesn't mean his control was perfect.  in general, the Koloss were the ideal army for him, because he and they shared similar goals: wreck stuff.  they did what he wanted, but what he wanted wasn't complicated.  I don't know that there was any indication that they exercised any particularly detailed strategy beyond overwhelming the enemy with numbers and physical strength.  for Koloss emotions, I think it can go a bit beyond the simple Bored or Rampage type emotions described above, but not by very much.

[Oudeis he/him]

Morale: I actually just re-read that scene the other day. Vin comments that while commanded by the Inquisitor and feeling the blood frenzy, they are capable of experiencing confusion and fear, but are powerless to act on it. They keep attacking the same way, regardless.

 

Ordering lifeless: Even if one person held the Command phrase, they could still tell the Lifeless, "Obey any order given to you by this man here." The guy wouldn't be able to order them to disobey anything programmed into them with their Command Phrase, but you could have a whole host of generals each in charge of two hundred Lifeless, with messengers carrying orders back and forth from a central general.

 

As Dunkum points out, the Pahn Kahl weren't sending the Lifeless to Idris for a real battle, it was to provoke war. It was even mentioned that without human direction, the Lifeless would wreak a lot of devastation but that the Idrians would surely survive.

 

Ruin's control was broken when he was just about as strong as he was every gonna be. Vin and Elend couldn't take control of his koloss from him (thought with duralumin, Vin briefly fought him over Marsh's mind) but Marsh himself was able to break free. When he was killing Vin, he realized the earring was a hemalurgic spike, and ripped it from her ear. Ruin saw what he was doing and tried to stop him, but since he was in a blood frenzy and it was technically him damaging someone, even Ruin couldn't stay his hand.

 

So my point is, no Inquisitor will ever be able to make Koloss fight with tactics. They see an enemy, the charge, they hit. They have the ability to reason just well enough to make use of some very simple tools, but even with their mind being controlled, no one could make them push through a defensive line, ignoring apparent targets to go for a high-value strike. And even if they could, taking out one general wouldn't cripple the army.

[ChickenPlague he/him]

Are the kollos fully grown? If so they win

[Yata he/him]

There are another point, in this battle are used the expansive 50-Breath-Lifeless or the cheap One-breath-Lifeless ?

We talk about the One-Breath Lifeless I suppose, but in the Warbraker we see only the "standard" 50-Breath-Lifeless.

While an Awekener may create cheap Lifeless (using the One-Breath-Command) we have no "actual clue" about their ability and their ablity to Understand the order or simply to manage their wounds.

Our only One-Breath-lifeless in the book is a Squirrel and I don't think is a good Example.

[Titan Arum]

Yata, I'm pretty sure that the One-Breath Lifeless have been the standard since the Manywar. What makes you think that all of the Lifeless we see are 50-Breath versions? I'm also pretty confident that Clod is a One-Breath Lifeless. 

[Charononus]

Yata, I'm pretty sure that the One-Breath Lifeless have been the standard since the Manywar. What makes you think that all of the Lifeless we see are 50-Breath versions? I'm also pretty confident that Clod is a One-Breath Lifeless. 

This.  I'm pretty sure that every lifeless we see in Warbreaker was created with one breath.

[Yata he/him]

This.  I'm pretty sure that every lifeless we see in Warbreaker was created with one breath.

Because when The Squirrel was found, the Priests thinks that is very strange that someone used a lot of Breath to Awake a Lifeless-Squirrel.

If the One-Breath-Command was spread nobody will think something like that.

Again Vasher stopped the Manywar and we know how he destroys "dangerous information" (War-trigger-Command) from spread.

I will not surprise if he seek anyone who knows the Command and Killed him (because in the past he doesn't know how to remove memories).

[Titan Arum]

Because when The Squirrel was found, the Priests thinks that is very strange that someone used a lot of Breath to Awake a Lifeless-Squirrel.

If the One-Breath-Command was spread nobody will think something like that.

Again Vasher stopped the Manywar and we know how he destroys "dangerous information" (War-trigger-Command) from spread.

I will not surprise if he seek anyone who knows the Command and Killed him (because in the past he doesn't know how to remove memories).

You're forgetting that it's A LOT more difficult to create a lifeless that's not human. They assume that someone used a lot of Breath to create a Lifeless-Squirrel because it would normally take a lot of breath to make a lifeless animal. (Assuming I am remembering this correctly. I'll try to find references to this when I get a chance after work...because maybe my head canon is just making this up.)

 

Remember that if an object is more anthropomorphic, it uses less Breath than something a lot less human-like. That's why Vasher makes the straw into little human forms, because it takes less Breath to Awaken it. That's also why Vivenna is surprised at how much Breath it takes to Awaken a rope vs. her clothing. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Titan Arum

[Dunkum he/him]

Where are you getting the idea that either a. it takes a lot of breath to create nonhuman lifeless (vasher uses one breath on the squirrel, though he is more or less an expert) or b. that anyone thinks that the squirrel required multiple breaths?  I don't recall anything to that effect from the book, and a quick search through it doesn't pull up anything to indicate that either.

[Voidus]

Also I think someone else mentions the one=breath command for Lifeless since it allows armies to basically double themselves. Which would mean it's still pretty common knowledge. Also as mentioned Clod was a one-Breath Lifeless. Granted though it's been ages since I've read Warbreaker so my memory on it isn't great.

[hoidhunter he/him]

I'm saying that in a stand up fight...one round decides winner...lifeless would probably have it...however...if I was a viscous warlord laying waste to and enemy ruler's kingdom...I'd have to go with Koloss.

 

A. They're terrifying

B. With villages to pillage they're self replenishing

C. For maintenance they eat ash and crap VS don't eat anything but require ichor alcohol and surgery to get fixed when broken.

 

I really didn't take the time to weigh the pros and cons very carefully...but I'm sticking by my guns.

[Hemalurgist]

Koloss are useful assuming you can control them. I would rather have Lifeless because you can have complete control over them. The problem with Koloss is a skilled mistborn or a team of soothers can take control of them from you. Also if you want to make your enemies afraid with lifeless just take enemy civilians and soldiers and turn them into lifeless.