Genders

[Rubix he/him]

Well you're the boss on these forums and all so I understand where you coming from about "everyone respecting everyone" but I have right to respect whoever I deem worthy of it and your opinion on the matter is unimportant.

 

I want to make one thing clear to everyone here. You may not have respect for someone on this site, but you will treat everyone with respect. I concede that you can respect whomever you'd like, and that my opinion is irrelevant in that regard. But if you come here and start treating others without respect, and continue to do so when confronted about it, my opinion becomes very relevant. Access to this site is granted at our discretion. And if my opinion becomes that you shouldn't continue to have access, you will be invited to not come back.

[Delightful]

Chaos, Rubix, thank you for that.

And Lark, for what it's worth, I think you're awesome for apologising to cracknut who's so unapologetic himself.

[Argent he/him]

Argent, just out of curiosity, what do you mean by the "default" female body?

 

The shape you generally imagine when you think "female." More curves. You know. 

[navybrandt he/him]

I feel I should apologize, twice now in a single morning I've singled you out with a direct reply that essentially says "no, you are wrong." It's an unfortunate coincidence, I promise I don't hate your guts

I respect your views even if I disagree with them. One of the great things about these forums is a chance to discuss things with people that are culturally different. Sure, some people take the low road - I've done it sometimes to my shame - but for the most part I find others views interesting. Sometimes I've even changed my mind on core issues.

[Delightful]

The shape you generally imagine when you think "female." More curves. You know.

I was just wondering if it was "media photoshopped skinny barbie doll" honestly.

One of the great things about these forums is a chance to discuss things with people that are culturally different.

.

So much this.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Delightful

[Argent he/him]

I was just wondering if it was "media photoshopped skinny barbie doll" honestly.

 

This too. It's exaggerated and unrealistic (usually), but it's unquestionably feminine - as in, you won't look at one of those photos and go "this is a dude." 

[Delightful]

This too. It's exaggerated and unrealistic (usually), but it's unquestionably feminine - as in, you won't look at one of those photos and go "this is a dude."

Although sometimes you look at them and go "this isn't a human". Especially baaad Photoshop jobs.

[Argent he/him]

Well. I don't want to be accused of xenophism... 

[Guest]

Alright, let's skip the mayhem and go back to interesting discussion.

 

I am female. I have never defined myself as anything else nor has there been any doubt as to my gender association, though not many people talked of those things back in my day, so I'll admit I am rather lost with it all 

 

That being said, I am a female. I physically look like a female in all its glory. I wear heels, skirts and I love to twirl in a pretty dress at the company's Christmas party. I don't wear make-up on a daily basis not because I hate make-up but because I think it is too much trouble. I hate doing my nails or going to the spa as I find these typical female activities unbelievably boring. I like pink, purple and sparkles but I hate princesses as I think them demeaning towards women. I prefer sword fighting heroes and I spent my childhood mimicking male heroes as opposed to female as I thought the male ones got to do the interesting things. 

 

I do not like arts and crafts. My kids photo-albums are empty because their mother is worthless at this very-female inclined activity   I detest cleaning in any form with a pure passion. I do the strict minimum and I will skip over socks on the floor without qualm. In fact, my husband is the one doing the vaccum cleaner and most of the house-cleaning despite being a male whom looks like a male.

 

I don't knit or sow. I have no desire to learn, but I admire those who Cosplay because 1) you are amazingly talented, 2) you are so brave to dare wear your beautiful costumes.

 

I studied as an engineer. I spent my school years with guys and nobody ever made a deal form me being a woman nor did I ever thought it was supposed to be one. I was raised men, women, there was not difference. I excelled in mathematics and I never thought it was weird or abnormal as the talk wanting women to suck in mathematics never reached me. I have always hated dolls and Barbies, I loved castle legos and ponies. I spent my childhood in running shoes, climbing trees while wearing neon pink overalls.

 

I work as an engineer surrounded by guys. I am the lead engineer of my field and nobody ever made a deal out of me being a woman and if someone shall ever do one: I'll await him with a brick and a hammer   I tend to get along better with guys because they tend to be more straight-forward and less judgmental than women, on average. 

 

I like sunbathing, but I also love jogging. I am rather athletic, though I am not team sports oriented. I alternate between the typical white wine drinking woman with the cool sunglasses  and the crazy idiot running in pouring rain and doing push-up on the grass surrounded by mosquito 

 

I do not believe being a man or a woman works by predefined characteristics. People are entitled to be what they want to be, no matter their gender. Men not liking football are no less men than others, just as women hating spas and bracelet clubs are no less women.

[Mistrunner]

I strongly believe that men and women are equal but different. The strongest person in the world will always be a man; a man will never be able to give birth. There are many differences between genders, and they complement each other. Both are needed.

I personally believe marriage is between a man and a woman and that the only genders are male and female. I'm very traditional in that respect. But I won't insult you if you believe differently! I won't care if you're LGBT (and Q now, right?), I just care how you act. Whether or not you're a good person. Judging someone based on just one thing like that is, quite frankly, ridiculous. (To clarify, this is in response to Mr. Angry Pants' comments. Whew, what a mess.)

I apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. I don't mean to do it! Call me out on it if it is and I'll clarify.

[+Slowswift]

I strongly believe that men and women are equal but different. The strongest person in the world will always be a man; a man will never be able to give birth. There are many differences between genders, and they complement each other. Both are needed.

I personally believe marriage is between a man and a woman and that the only genders are male and female. I'm very traditional in that respect. But I won't insult you if you believe differently! I won't care if you're LGBT (and Q now, right?), I just care how you act. Whether or not you're a good person. Judging someone based on just one thing like that is, quite frankly, ridiculous. (To clarify, this is in response to Mr. Angry Pants' comments. Whew, what a mess.)

I apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. I don't mean to do it! Call me out on it if it is and I'll clarify.

 

You said it perfectly! Judging people for something like that is just plain dumb, in my opinion. And as I've said before, I may not like what you believe -- but that does not mean you don't have a right to believe what you want or identify how you want, nor will I judge you for it. 

 

And I'm not trying to call anyone specific out here. This is in general terms, and if I offended you, I really am sorry. That was not my intention at all.

[Guest]

I strongly believe that men and women are equal but different. The strongest person in the world will always be a man; a man will never be able to give birth. There are many differences between genders, and they complement each other. Both are needed.

I personally believe marriage is between a man and a woman and that the only genders are male and female. I'm very traditional in that respect. But I won't insult you if you believe differently! I won't care if you're LGBT (and Q now, right?), I just care how you act. Whether or not you're a good person. Judging someone based on just one thing like that is, quite frankly, ridiculous. (To clarify, this is in response to Mr. Angry Pants' comments. Whew, what a mess.)

I apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. I don't mean to do it! Call me out on it if it is and I'll clarify.

 

I believe people should be allowed to marry, should they wish to, no matter their gender and their preferences. Love does not have a gender and even if the greater vast majority of people will always fall within the tradition male/female union, I do not see why the minority should not be allowed to profess their love. Many female/female and male/male unions now live in rather traditional ways with children of their own: I happen to know a few.

 

I do not mean this comment as a disrespect towards your position: I simply meant to share 

[Kaymyth she/her]

I believe people should be allowed to marry, should they wish to, no matter their gender and their preferences. Love does not have a gender and even if the greater vast majority of people will always fall within the tradition male/female union, I do not see why the minority should not be allowed to profess their love. Many female/female and male/male unions now live in rather traditional ways with children of their own: I happen to know a few.

 

I do not mean this comment as a disrespect towards your position: I simply meant to share 

I regret that I have but one upvote to give...

[+Slowswift]

Anyone here read the essay Brandon wrote a few years back about LGBT, specifically Dumbledore?

 

It's here, and it's really good.

[Titan Arum]

You said it perfectly! Judging people for something like that is just plain dumb, in my opinion. And as I've said before, I may not like what you believe -- but that does not mean you don't have a right to believe what you want or identify how you want, nor will I judge you for it. 

 

And I'm not trying to call anyone specific out here. This is in general terms, and if I offended you, I really am sorry. That was not my intention at all.

I too am not trying to be mean or offend, but I personally believe that being anywhere on the LGBT spectrum is not a "belief" or a "choice". In my opinion it is due to biological reasons. I've seen studies that show evidence of this as well, for both humans and animals. Looking at animals specifically, we all know animals do things by instinct and don't have free will. Thus, they don't choose to be gay. But there are several well known examples of gay animals, including the famous penguins at the Central Park Zoo.

 

Using people as an example (and I'm sure people who believe otherwise have heard something similar to what I'm about to say) one of my best friends that I lived with in college (who was the "Queen" of our university) is quite an effeminate male who is gay. He was raised in a very conservative and religious family. He knew from an early age that he was gay and at first didn't want to believe it because he knew his family was opposed to homosexuality on religious grounds. He was afraid to be who he was because he thought his family would hate him and disown him, so he hid his sexuality form his family for the first 21 years of his life. For someone like that, why would they "choose" to be gay? It makes no sense to me. So I simply can't agree that it's a "belief" or "choice".  

 

In the end, with my friend, he eventually came out to his family. And they still love him as much as they did before. They're still proud of him. They still see him as their son who can do anything. His fears were unfounded. But, again, in my opinion, it wasn't a choice for him to be gay.  

 

If anyone is offended by this, I apologize now. Slowswift, if you're offended that I specifically quoted you to make this point: I'm sorry and I did not mean to offend you. As you said in your post, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, including those who I disagree with. I'm not trying to change your beliefs, but I wanted to share my thoughts on this topic. 

[RandomRevival he/him]

I strongly believe that men and women are equal but different. The strongest person in the world will always be a man; a man will never be able to give birth. There are many differences between genders, and they complement each other. Both are needed.

I personally believe marriage is between a man and a woman and that the only genders are male and female. I'm very traditional in that respect. But I won't insult you if you believe differently! I won't care if you're LGBT (and Q now, right?), I just care how you act. Whether or not you're a good person. Judging someone based on just one thing like that is, quite frankly, ridiculous. (To clarify, this is in response to Mr. Angry Pants' comments. Whew, what a mess.)

I apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. I don't mean to do it! Call me out on it if it is and I'll clarify.

The strongest person in the world will always be a man?

Pufft, wait until Epics come along.

[Kaymyth she/her]

I too am not trying to be mean or offend, but I personally believe that being anywhere on the LGBT spectrum is not a "belief" or a "choice". In my opinion it is due to biological reasons. I've seen studies that show evidence of this as well, for both humans and animals. Looking at animals specifically, we all know animals do things by instinct and don't have free will. Thus, they don't choose to be gay. But there are several well known examples of gay animals, including the famous penguins at the Central Park Zoo.

 

Using people as an example (and I'm sure people who believe otherwise have heard something similar to what I'm about to say) one of my best friends that I lived with in college (who was the "Queen" of our university) is quite an effeminate male who is gay. He was raised in a very conservative and religious family. He knew from an early age that he was gay and at first didn't want to believe it because he knew his family was opposed to homosexuality on religious grounds. He was afraid to be who he was because he thought his family would hate him and disown him, so he hid his sexuality form his family for the first 21 years of his life. For someone like that, why would they "choose" to be gay? It makes no sense to me. So I simply can't agree that it's a "belief" or "choice".  

 

In the end, with my friend, he eventually came out to his family. And they still love him as much as they did before. They're still proud of him. They still see him as their son who can do anything. His fears were unfounded. But, again, in my opinion, it wasn't a choice for him to be gay.  

 

If anyone is offended by this, I apologize now. Slowswift, if you're offended that I specifically quoted you to make this point: I'm sorry and I did not mean to offend you. As you said in your post, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, including those who I disagree with. I'm not trying to change your beliefs, but I wanted to share my thoughts on this topic. 

 

I'm glad your friend's family came around and accepted him for who he is.  Sadly, not all families react so well.  LGBT youth make up a disproportionately high amount of the homeless population.  Coming out presents a real risk for many young folks.

[Mistrunner]

Phew. Even though I know the Shard is nice, I was irrationally scared to post something like that on the internet. Thanks to everyone for being so nice. It makes it so much easier to have intelligent and honest discussion.

Just a comment on the article Slowswift recommended: it was fabulous. I just have to share one quote:

One of the things that interests me most about this debate is that those who cry for open mindedness often seem to be as hateful and unwilling to look from someone else’s perspective as the people on the far right. Rationally work to enlighten us through thoughtful nudging. Don’t call us idiots and homophobes. It really doesn’t help.

Just this. So much this.

I'm definitely not referring to anyone here. This conversation has been quite the opposite. But hate does come from both sides, and it really doesn't help the side one supports. I wish everybody in the world would accept that yelling at someone will not make them agree with you. Sigh. Now I'm sad.

But we have 17th Shard! The loveliest of internet places. I'm so lucky that the only fan site I join is one so awesome. More hugs for everybody. And donuts.

[Titan Arum]

I'm glad your friend's family came around and accepted him for who he is.  Sadly, not all families react so well.  LGBT youth make up a disproportionately high amount of the homeless population.  Coming out presents a real risk for many young folks.

I'm glad too. And now his family loves his boyfriend of 10+ years as well. I know they'll get married now that it's legal and I know his parents will be there in support of him.

 

Also, say what you want about Miley Cyrus, but I respect her more than ever now that she's started The Happy Hippie Foundation to support the homeless LGBT youth population. 

[Kaymyth she/her]

I'm glad too. And now his family loves his boyfriend of 10+ years as well. I know they'll get married now that it's legal and I know his parents will be there in support of him.

 

Also, say what you want about Miley Cyrus, but I respect her more than ever now that she's started The Happy Hippie Foundation to support the homeless LGBT youth population. 

 

Wow.  I did not know that she's done that.  Huh.  Maybe she's finally starting to grow up a bit.

 

Or...

 

<<<WARNING!  Controversial Opinion Inside Spoiler Tags!>>>

Or maybe she's finally finished paying off the karmic debt for her father's terrible, terrible music.

 

What?  I warned you it was controversial.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if, over the course of our lives, my husband and I wind up "adopting" various youths who drift in through the pagan channels.  It wouldn't be the first time.  Granted, our first young adult adoptee wasn't kicked out for being LGBT (though she is), but because her parents were the sort of complete and utter crazypants that led me to think many, many angry thoughts.  They are, basically, terrible people.

[Titan Arum]

<<<WARNING!  Controversial Opinion Inside Spoiler Tags!>>>

Or maybe she's finally finished paying off the karmic debt for her father's terrible, terrible music.

 

What?  I warned you it was controversial.

[Kaymyth she/her]

 

I have no rejoinder to this except this:

 

[Kestrel she/her]

Just this. So much this.

I'm definitely not referring to anyone here. This conversation has been quite the opposite. But hate does come from both sides, and it really doesn't help the side one supports. I wish everybody in the world would accept that yelling at someone will not make them agree with you. Sigh. Now I'm sad.

But we have 17th Shard! The loveliest of internet places. I'm so lucky that the only fan site I join is one so awesome. More hugs for everybody. And donuts.

That quote is my favorite from the passage, really. To me, it doesn't matter if you're for or against, because that's your choice. But please, don't try to dictate other people's lifestyles unless they're actually hurting you.

[kaellok he/him]

Just read through all this thread at once, over the last 15 mins or so.  And wow.  So much wow, for--basically every reason ever.  And now, on to my comments, that may or may not be relavent anymore!  (And there was much quoting...)

 

Spoiler tags to break up the monster post.

 

Thoughts regarding trans* vs. hetero/homo

The thing with gender identity/gender queer isn't really fitting the stereotype per say, its more of "I don't feel right in my own body." It has nothing to do with the clothes you wear or makeup or how you act, its how you feel internally.
 

 

 

Basically, their body is telling them one thing, while their brain is telling them something completely different.  It can be a bit hard to grok for those of us whose internal identities match up with our external appearance.  Imagine going to bed one night and waking up in a body of the opposite sex.  You're still you, exactly as you would have looked, but suddenly you're different.  And your memories and all of the people around you are telling you that this is the way it's always been, but every core of your being is telling you that it's wrong.  That's what it's like for a trans* person.

 

I hate not understanding.  Different rules for different people because of arbitrariness (whether money, position, family, sex, religion, etc.) is the only thing in life I hate more.  At the very core of my being is the singular thought, "I am me."  I view myself as a giant hurricane, constant change and destructive force on the outside--but there, at the center, a calm, quiet place of tranquility.  That eye is where I live, where I remember almost always living.  I thought that this was normal.

 

Then I got older, and there was much discussion about hetero vs. homo, and I could wrap my head around that.  I was, and am, very much cis male hetero, and at first I found it weird.  Being poor in Kansas didn't help to shift much, but I figured, some people are cat people and some are dog people.  No real way to know for sure, and usually you can't help it.  You just like who/what you like, right?  That's all there is to it.  (In my defense, I was like 11 at the time.)

 

A decade or so goes by, and suddenly there's all this discussion about trans* vs. "normal."  And I just could not understand.  For years, I tried to understand, but failed utterly.  Then in 2008 I moved to Seattle, and ended up meeting two very, very awesome people that were this incredibly alien and fascinating thing to me (separately; they were awesome people, and they also happened to be alien/fascinating; I also knew them one from work and one from The AFK Tavern.)  That's how I learned what it actually means--that this core aspect of self that I had internally thought of as the definition of self didn't apply to them.  Or, rather, that it actively attacked them.  Suddenly, everything began to click and make sense why the need for more definitions.

 

Beyond that, I've had dreams before.  Incredibly realistic, detailed ones where I was someone else.  Sometimes they're video game characters (I have been both Link after A Link to the Past came out, as well as Samus after Metroid Prime) but often times I'm somebody completely different and there is no anchor to the real world.  When I wake up from those dreams, there's a time where that sense of self that I rely on just isn't there, and I have to consciously rebuild it by remember who I am.  And it's terrifying.  And they live with that for far longer than seconds at a time.  I can only imagine the strength of will it takes.

 

 

People online seeing you differently than you are

Male- mostly anyway. Apparently, I give off a "feminine" vibe to people online, though? I have had a surprising amount of pople either assume I'm female or -supposing they know I'm male- thinking I'm either gay or bi.

 

(No one on this forum, before anyone says anything! It's just a... surprising trend I've noticed in my online life.)

 

Holy Hells, man.  Same.  Exact.  Thing.  Back in the day I played FFXI, and I played as a Mithra (cat-girl) which was a female-only race.  They also made the best rangers, which was the best class, so of course I went that route.  The running joke was that every Mithra was a male in real life.  And yet everyone assumed I was female.  Anytime I didn't tell people otherwise straight up front, later when they found out (sometimes just after an hour of grouping and slaughtering mobs) they'd be all, "Oh, well.  The way you used emoticons, I just assumed..."

 

It's followed me far past that, but I found it really weird and jarring.  Especially when now I have female friends in the real world that will ocassionally say things like, "<<name>>, you're so incredibly male sometimes.  Not that that's a bad thing."  I'm forthright, mildly aggressive (not angry), supremely self-confident, and utterly oblivious to things that aren't of interest to me unless I make an effort to see/notice them.  I act the same way online as in real life, so I've always been confused how people draw two very different perceptions.

 

 

On Fabulous Monsters

 

Nah, zie ticks the 'F' box, because that matches what people see when they see zir.  But in zir mind, it stands for Fabulous Monster.

THIS.  IS.  AWESOME!

 

 

On having 50 lions

 

 

What....what are we going to DO with that many?

Or feed them?

 

What are we going to do?  Whatever we want!  Who's going to stop us, when we have 50 lions at our side?!

What will we feed them?  Whoever tries to stop us.

 

[Kestrel she/her]

Beyond that, I've had dreams before. Incredibly realistic, detailed ones where I was someone else. Sometimes they're video game characters (I have been both Link after A Link to the Past came out, as well as Samus after Metroid Prime) but often times I'm somebody completely different and there is no anchor to the real world. When I wake up from those dreams, there's a time where that sense of self that I rely on just isn't there, and I have to consciously rebuild it by remember who I am. And it's terrifying. And they live with that for far longer than seconds at a time. I can only imagine the strength of will it takes.

This part of your post was... really interesting to me. Could you maybe describe a bit more? My first thought was Otherkin or something along those lines, but that has nothing to do with gender.