Do we *need* Downvoting?

[Eerongal]

We're in the process of fixing the rep system now, so that a negative reputation won't show up as red until enough rep has accumulated. As for a boost right off the bat, I think that intro topics are an excellent place for that. I've upvoted more than a few people just because they made a good impression in their intro post.

 

 

 

It would be nice if we could something like stackExchange.com does, where it gives you a small amount of rep points for doing small things like filling out your profile, posting for the first time, etc. just to encourage a little bit of initial participation, though i obviously have no idea what the plugin we're using is capable of (and i doubt it's capable of that )

[Nepene]

We're in the process of fixing the rep system now, so that a negative reputation won't show up as red until enough rep has accumulated. As for a boost right off the bat, I think that intro topics are an excellent place for that. I've upvoted more than a few people just because they made a good impression in their intro post.

As for a "reason for downvoting" feature, that would have to be a plugin that we currently don't have the resources to create or commission. Your best bet in the meantime would be to (respectfully) tell someone in a reply why you downvoted them, or to politely help someone figure out why someone else may have downvoted them. It's not perfect, I know, but any sort of button or entry field that lets you anonymously submit a reason for downvoting somebody is a long way off.

 

With intro topics- those who are best at socializing and being interesting with new people get rep, those who see that forum. I'd definitely support some system like Eerongal's where new users could get some easy rep quickly by doing some minor tasks.

 

If you, or whoever does the site stuff for this site saw a plugin like that, would you try it out?

 

For me, and many others, posting is far too much effort so we just leave an upvote or a downvote and vanish.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Nepene

[Rubix]

I'd definitely be open to it. I'd want to check it out first (see it implemented on another site, etc.) but I think that it could be a good thing. Mind, I don't have time to be looking right now, as I'm starting a new job on monday (I'm going to have a lot of my time taken up for the next while), but if someone else found one, it's a definite maybe.

[KChan]

The only "new people" type hooks I've seen that are compatible with IPB do things like sending an automatic welcome PM upon registration. Maybe more have been made since I last looked, but yeah. So far as I know, I haven't seen anything that grants rep upon doing various things. I can't speak for the others, but I'll keep it in mind, and if I see anything like that, I'll show it to the other admins.

Also, if it's too much effort to do anything above and beyond leaving a rep vote, why did you ask for a way to tell people why they were downvoted? I'm a bit confused now.

Edited April 26, 2013 by KChan

[Shivertongue]

If you, or whoever does the site stuff for this site saw a plugin like that, would you try it out?

 

I wouldn't want to. Such a feature could never account for all the possible variations, and would give far too much attention to an aspect of the site that honestly, to us, is barely of secondary importance.

 

Downvotes shouldn't be given out on a whim. If you find it important enough to want a reason for your own stuff being downvoted, maybe you should consider putting in the effort and leaving a reason for why YOU downvoted something.

[Morsk]

Hi. I'll probably never get another chance to say this in a thread where it's remotely relevant.

"Lamespren" is hilarious, and I've come close to giggling at it multiple times. It's comedic genius. I never get a chance to say this, because pointing out the rank in front of someone who has it wouldn't be nice... but I do always find it at least a little funny. Hoed is alright too, but Lamespren is my favorite.

[Shivertongue]

Hi. I'll probably never get another chance to say this in a thread where it's remotely relevant.

"Lamespren" is hilarious, and I've come close to giggling at it multiple times. It's comedic genius. I never get a chance to say this, because pointing out the rank in front of someone who has it wouldn't be nice... but I do always find it at least a little funny. Hoed is alright too, but Lamespren is my favorite.

 

Glad you like it. That was my sole contribution to the reputation rankings. xD

[Nepene]

Also, if it's too much effort to do anything above and beyond leaving a rep vote, why did you ask for a way to tell people why they were downvoted? I'm a bit confused now.

 

The main effort of leaving a comment is the potential risk of a fight or debate. That's likely why the rep system is anonymous- you can say how a post makes you feel without getting into a potentially awkward debate. You can speak freely. That does have the side effect of discouraging you explaining why you disliked the post, as you can easily express your disapproval or approval without explaining anything. As such I'd enjoy a feature that allowed you to preserve your anonymity and explain why you were downvoting.

[Windrunner]

Why do you need to be anonymous? It's not difficult to explain in an adult and respectful way why you objected to a post, so why the need for the mask? If the reason for your downvote isn't self-evident and you feel the need to explain yourself, then downvotes shouldn't really be a concern, because even if the person you downvoted doesn't like your response, others reading it will probably counteract it. I just don't see why anonymity is required to explain why you didn't like a post.

[Voidus]

I think it'd foster rivalries too much if there wasn't a way to do so anonymously, if they just directly downvoted your reply of why you didn't like the post people might counteract it but it could just cause people to be petty and downvote you far more often in response, I think a little bit of anonymity would help stop rep. wars and the like.

[Nepene]

Why do you need to be anonymous? It's not difficult to explain in an adult and respectful way why you objected to a post, so why the need for the mask? If the reason for your downvote isn't self-evident and you feel the need to explain yourself, then downvotes shouldn't really be a concern, because even if the person you downvoted doesn't like your response, others reading it will probably counteract it. I just don't see why anonymity is required to explain why you didn't like a post.

 

Because it is stressful and tiring having a contentious discussion with emotions running high, especially when the person you are downvoting is in a bad enough mood to do something that deserves a downvote. The other person does not have to be as adult as you are.

 

Plus, it's a matter of record that most people don't explain their voting patterns.

 

Would you prefer if the rep system was not anonymous?

[Meg]

I have no knowledge about such forum-software and such things, but my idea is to make a prompt (like when "hide" a posting) when an up-/downvote is made where the voter has to give a short reason. This reason should be shown to the admins/mods only. 

Is this understandable? 

 

(edit: deleting unnecessary first line. )

Edited April 28, 2013 by Meg

[Joe ST]

I think that was the general consensus about what the anonnamous messaging would be like, yes. I know vBulletin had similar functionality on a different forum. It's not a simple thing to implement though.

[KChan]

vBulletin is also a completely different forum software from what we use, so it's not like we could just install the same plugin they were using.

[Chaos]

I have actually found a hook that would allow for reasons for up and downvotes and from what I can see, it works largely as Meg says. I need to do testing on it to see if it would work for our purposes, but I have had a busy weekend.

[Aethling]

If you do away with down votes, you might as well trash the entire system.

 

While it is true that there has been a rash of downvotes to new members, I have to wonder if it is because most of the ones I have seen have simply started a new topic on something that has already been discussed very thoroughly elsewhere.  If they would have simply followed common sense and read the other posts before starting their own asking a quesition that is already live 3 headings down, they would have avoided them completely.

 

Now, there is one guy that I think waits until he is either drunk or high to post anything, his are generally rambling with inaccuracies, and often text message type spelling.  You should be able to reflect negatively for something like that.

 

Also, I have seen several upvotes for nothing other than saying "hello" or "I agree" within a subject.  Those should never be upvoted as they contribute absolutely nothing to the overall conversation or knowledge base.  I might be wrong, but I think this type of stuff is the only type that I have ever downvoted.

 

There is enough in the world at large where people are afraid of offending someone's feelings because they are acting stupidly or recklessly.  People live in a world with other people.  Downvotes are roughly the equivalent to telling your neighbor to turn down his music when it is so loud you can't hear your own TV...

[Meg]

While it is true that there has been a rash of downvotes to new members, I have to wonder if it is because most of the ones I have seen have simply started a new topic on something that has already been discussed very thoroughly elsewhere.  If they would have simply followed common sense and read the other posts before starting their own asking a quesition that is already live 3 headings down, they would have avoided them completely.

 

 

Though you are right about this, wouldn't it be more helpful (and polite) to post an answer like "There are already topics about this" (perhaps with links) or "I think this had already been discussed, did you look for such topics." than only hitting the downvote-button which says nothing but disagreement but not why. 

 

This works the other way around the same (with the upvotes). 

 

 

 

Downvotes are roughly the equivalent to telling your neighbor to turn down his music when it is so loud you can't hear your own TV...

 

 

Not really because the votes are anonymous. 

[Chaos]

I think both of you have valid points, and both pro-downvote and anti-downvote sides have some good points, but we will definitely be keeping downvotes for the foreseeable future. It is possible this can change, but not for a long time, I should think. I would say that everyone should use both up and downvotes as methods of promoting good discussion and providing learning experiences for... well, less thoughtful discussion. We'll see if I can get a rep reason system in. I do encourage you to respectfully state your issues with a post that you've downvoted in order to continue to foster discussion, but there are also reasons why you would not wish to do that (for example, you are worried about someone blaming you and possible retaliation, or perhaps you simply don't want to feed the troll, but want to send a message that wasn't cool). As always we will ensure the reputation system is not abused.

 

I'm not trying to shut down this topic, because I do really like hearing feedback on the rep system, and I encourage people to say there mind on the issue. However, we will be keeping downvotes for the foreseeable future. Carry on XD

 

I have not forgotten about making that neutral zone from -5 to 5 rep, but I know how to do it now and I will do it tomorrow. I will also try and make that red color a bit more muted. 

[Aethling]

The main reason why they should be kept anonymous has already been mentioned.  There is way too much of a risk of a flame war.  This actually happened on here a bit back unless my memory fails me.  At that point the discussion that might have been full of useful information degenerates into nothing but a group of people slinging hissy fits at each other.

 

If I read it correctly earlier, someone was trying to make the point that because this is a sanctioned board there shouldn't be any down votes.  If anything, that gives more of a reason to have downvotes as a way to sift through accurate v totally bs discussions.

 

I think when I originally signed up, part of the process actually stated to look at past topics before you started a new one.  If someone doesn't take the few seconds this takes and posts some ridiculous comment or a theory that has been debunked multiple times, they deserve a negative mark.  Indeed that is what they should be intended for.  Lately, there have been posts asking a question that already has a discussion several pages deep only two or three headings down.  That contributes nothing, and it clutters up the board.  As an "official" board, we need to minimize this stuff before it grows out of control

[Senor Feesh]

Lately, there have been posts asking a question that already has a discussion several pages deep only two or three headings down.  That contributes nothing, and it clutters up the board.  As an "official" board, we need to minimize this stuff before it grows out of control

 

Whilst I do agree with this sentiment, I'm not sure that it constitutes negative rep (at least not for a first offence). A poke in the right direction I think is more productive than anonymous and unexplained downvoting. However, as I mentioned previously, I do believe downvotes have their place.

[Aethling]

People have been redirected enough times here for pretty much anyone to know to look.  If this stuff is still going on, a few negative points will definately get people's attention.  You shouldn't have to continually redirect people that if they would have just looked at the topic two subjects down before they posted everything could be avoided.  Negative rep will get their attention very quickly versus people having to continually filter through the dross just to get to a new discussion.

[Voidus]

People have been redirected enough times here for pretty much anyone to know to look.  If this stuff is still going on, a few negative points will definately get people's attention.  You shouldn't have to continually redirect people that if they would have just looked at the topic two subjects down before they posted everything could be avoided.  Negative rep will get their attention very quickly versus people having to continually filter through the dross just to get to a new discussion.

Negative rep won't tell them anything except that people don't like their post, they still need to actually know where the topic is so they'll still need to be redirected, and there aren't too many who don't learn to look after the first time, with or without negative rep. sometimes people just don't know what to look for when they first arrive so I don't like to downvote people if they just don't know how to navigate the forum yet.

[The Count]

Just so you all know, I am only posting this because people seem to be handing out up votes a lot in this thread ... gimme gimme gimme!

 

 

Seriously though, I can understand the reasons for disagreeing with down voting but surely we have to operate on the assumption that people are adults (or at least reasonable people who can think for themselves).

 

If I was to down vote someone (I don't think I have yet), I would probably post on the thread politely pointing out why I felt I needed to do so.

 

I would not say "Loser, you suck! DOWNVOTE!!!!!!11111!"

 

Similarly, if i felt strongly about receiving a number of down votes I might post asking for feedback and reasons.

 

I would not say "OMG, you guys SUCKZorz!"

 

I do not think it is too much to expect people who visit these (really quite excellent and open minded) forums to be polite and respectful, just like in normal social interaction.

 

A down vote, used responsibly (as it is on these boards) goes someway to ensuring that there are very few disrespectful posts.

 

If I felt that the community here was full of trolls and cliques then I might feel differently (can we say World of Warcraft forums anyone) but that is not the case.

 

In short, if it aint broke...

[Yados]

Seriously though, I can understand the reasons for disagreeing with down voting but surely we have to operate on the assumption that people are adults (or at least reasonable people who can think for themselves).

 

I see. And is this your first visit to the Internet?

[Observer]

Just so you all know, I am only posting this because people seem to be handing out up votes a lot in this thread ... gimme gimme gimme!

I am so going to downvote him for that...

In short, if it aint broke...

Then I saw you echoing my thoughts, and then you ended with that.

Naaah.