How quickly do you lose Stormlight? An inconsistency?

[Havoc]

When a Surgebinder absorbs Stormlight, how quickly does it leak out? There are two (mildly) inconsistent descriptions in the book:

 

Prologue:

Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out. Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly.

 

Chapter 59:

Kaladin relaxed. He was still steaming light, and—save for the call to Lopen—he’d been holding his breath for a good quarter hour. That could be handy, he thought, though his lungs were starting to burn, so he started to breathe normally. The Light didn’t leave him altogether, though it escaped faster.

 

So Szeth thinks stormlight can be held only for 3-5 min, while Kaladin can comfortably hold it for more than 15 minutes, even while pouring some into rocks to climb up to the bridge.

 

There's a few different ways I can think of to reconcile these:

 

• Author error
  Given what I've read of Brandon's writing, I highly doubt that this is the case.

• An hour on Roshar might not last 60 minutes
  Still, unless an hour is as short as 20 minutes, we still have an inconsistency.
   
• The Knights Radiant can hold in stormlight longer than others
  The Kaladin segment above is just a couple of pages after he first speaks the First Ideal, putting him on the path to Radianthood. But this raises a lot of questions.
  Can a full Knight can hold in stormlight perfectly?
  If so, do the Shin consider the Knights Radiant to be Voidbringers?
  How is Szeth so powerful without even the First Ideal to power him?
  If Szeth were to speak the Ideals, how powerful would he end up, and would that free him from his curse?

 

[PeterAhlstrom he/him]

A Roshar hour is 50 Roshar minutes. Though for most people in Alethkar, they don't have a very precise concept of minutes and don't generally keep time by minutes (with some exceptions). This is not the case in some other nations such as Iri.

Edited April 6, 2013 by PeterAhlstrom

[Havoc]

A Roshar hour is 50 Roshar minutes.

Thank you kind sir. So much for possibility #2.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Havoc

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I also wondered about that disparity.

 

Brandon has said in Q&As that something different is going on with Szeth, he doesn't actually have a spren.  So I imagine it's just that his powers are more limited than a normal Windrunner's powers.

[Havoc]

That's interesting. Seems like with Kaladin should be able to wipe the floor with Szeth, if all his powers have scaled up alongside his ability to retain stormlight.

[Windrunner he/him]

Yeah, I agree that Kaladin is simply more efficient with Stormlight. I wonder how much his powers have scaled up now that he's spoken the Second Oath?

I'd agree that Kaladin would have an advantage except for two things. Firstly, while Szeth is weaker, he has years of experience.

Mistborn Spoilers (Probably not necessary but better safe than sorry)

It reminds me of how Vin and Elend were. Elend had access to more power, but there was never any question who would win in a fight. Vin was vastly more skilled and could have taken Elend any day of the week. I see this as being similar to Kaladin and Szeth.

 

Also, Kaladin has yet to use a basic lashing. It really is the most versitile of all the three so he kind of needs to know it in order to have a chance against Szeth. The fact that he performed a reverse lashing, a variation of the basic lashing, is promising. I'm just glad that he's unlikely  be fighting Szeth alone.

[Senor Feesh]

Yeah, I agree that Kaladin is simply more efficient with Stormlight. I wonder how much his powers have scaled up now that he's spoken the Second Oath?

I'd agree that Kaladin would have an advantage except for two things. Firstly, while Szeth is weaker, he has years of experience.

Mistborn Spoilers (Probably not necessary but better safe than sorry)

It reminds me of how Vin and Elend were. Elend had access to more power, but there was never any question who would win in a fight. Vin was vastly more skilled and could have taken Elend any day of the week. I see this as being similar to Kaladin and Szeth.

 

Also, Kaladin has yet to use a basic lashing. It really is the most versitile of all the three so he kind of needs to know it in order to have a chance against Szeth. The fact that he performed a reverse lashing, a variation of the basic lashing, is promising. I'm just glad that he's unlikely  be fighting Szeth alone.

 

Completely agree with this, and with Cheese Ninja on that Szeth's inability to hold onto Stormlight for long is likely down to his lack of Spren.

 

Also, I think using spoiler tags on any cross-series discussion is just good policy outside the Cosmere Theory board. It's entirely plausible (and I think actually likely, from reading people's into threads) that there are users who arrive here after reading only one of the Cosmere series with a desire to read others. Had someone read this thread who has read WoK but has yet to read WoA, and you'd not included tags, that would have been a major spoiler. So good on you.

[Observer]

Could just be a variation in power levels Mistborn style, but I find it fa rmore likely to be a result of the fact that, apparently, Kaladin and Szeth aren't even really doing the same thing. Still, my money is on Szeth in this fight. He actually understands the limits and rules of what he's doing.

[Havoc]

Experience could well be an important factor. However, Kaladin does seem to have something going for him that allows him to fight like an experienced spearman without having gone through all the necessary training. Then you add the fact that his bridgerunner team seems to have host of tests ready for him to discover the limits of his abilities.

 

If Kaladin were to somehow get his hands on a Shardspear, I know who I'd bet on.

[Meg]

My gut says: My money is on Kaladin because I'm sure he's the better and more experienced fighter than Szeth. 

 

Kaladin joined army at around 15 years and stayed there for nearly 4 years. In this time he trained to a maximum and was called one of the best if not the best spearman in Amaram's army. He was Kaladin Stormblessed. 

After he fought down the unknown Shardbearer and was branded as slave, he didn't fight for 8 month during which he was sold around as slave until he became bridgeman. Weeks later in the chasms he performed a perfect kata, showing that he didn't unlearn anything. Also in The Battle of the Tower he showed his skill.

 

Szeth is a Shin. We don't know whether he was a Shin soldier before he was named Truthless. Given he was not a soldier I'm sure he learned to fight after his "fall" so nearly seven years ago. Then he did some murders before he assassinated Gavilar (and, yes, he showed skill in this fight). Then there were five years (IIRC) when he didn't fight. Later, killing through the list that Taravangian gave him, at least killing Hananavar (sp?) he showed skill too.

 

But all things considered Kaladin has more fighting experience. 

 

If a fight between Kal and Szeth would happen indoors maybe Szeth has a little advantage because of his Lashings upsidedown. But outdoors these don't help him (as far as I understood that Lashings-thing). 

 

I'm not sure whether I could explain my thoughts well. 

 

@OP: Stormlight flees the body when breathing. So can't it be that Szeth isn't able to hold his breath for more than a few minutes while Kaladin managed it? 

 

 

 

edit and OffTopic: 

 

A Roshar hour is 50 Roshar minutes. Though for most people in Alethkar, they don't have a very precise concept of minutes and don't generally keep time by minutes (with some exceptions). This is not the case in some other nations such as Iri.

 

 

That means that CruCusicesh, the Protector's "display lasted a full ten minutes," that would mean 10 real genuine full ten Rosharian minutes . Not nearly, not around, not more and not less. That's sorta gem in TWoK. 

[Havoc]

OP: Stormlight flees the body when breathing. So can't it be that Szeth isn't able to hold his breath for more than a few minutes while Kaladin managed it? 

 

I got the impression that stormlight sustains the body while held, reducing the need to breathe. That's why Kaladin thinks, "That could be handy."

 

EDIT: Found the relevant quote, again from the prologue.

Szeth bent down and picked up the spear that had fallen from above. As he did so, he released the breath he’d been holding since drawing in the Stormlight. It sustained him while he held it, but those two lanterns hadn’t contained much of it, so he would need to breathe again soon. The Light began to leak away more quickly, now that he wasn’t holding his breath.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Havoc

[blari345]

Another couple of things to take into account in a Kaladin vs Szeth fight.

- After becoming Dalinars bodyguard Kaladin will surely be briefed on possible threats against him including a certian assassin in white. I think the is how he will learn basic lashings from recountings of Szeths previous battles.

- This would also mean that Kaladin could have more insight into Szeths tatics while to Szeth Kaladin would be a complete unknown.

-While Szeth has more experience fighting with lashings that Kaladin neither has any fighting another surgebinder.

[Meg]

Another couple of things to take into account in a Kaladin vs Szeth fight.

- After becoming Dalinars bodyguard Kaladin will surely be briefed on possible threats against him including a certian assassin in white. I think the is how he will learn basic lashings from recountings of Szeths previous battles.

- This would also mean that Kaladin could have more insight into Szeths tatics while to Szeth Kaladin would be a complete unknown.

-While Szeth has more experience fighting with lashings that Kaladin neither has any fighting another surgebinder.

 

 

Uhm, who should learn Kal about Szeth's tactics? They're all dead.  

[Krelian]

Kaladin is pretty clearly the more powerful of the two, based on feats in the novel. 

 

However, as everyone has said, Szeth is clearly much, much better at using his abilities at the moment. 

 

However, remember that strongly Invested individuals are resistant to attempts to manipulate them with any of the magic systems we've seen thus far. 

 

If Szeth and Kaladin are relatively immune to one another's powers (at least directly), I think Kaladin has the upper hand, since he's apparently a genius at close combat.

[Windrunner he/him]

Uhm, who should learn Kal about Szeth's tactics? They're all dead.

 

No they aren't. If I'm remembering right, Szeth was specifically instructed in several cases to cause massive amounts of carnage and maim people.

[king of nowhere]

szeth can hold stormlight less than kaladin because he was nerfed, since he was clearly too overpowered.

sorry, had to say that.

[Azul he/him]

I just had a crazy imagine of Szeth and whoever trained him replacing people in bug's life  "pretend this rock is spren...."

 

As it stands now Szeth would likely wipe the floor with Kaladin sadly.  His understanding of lashing plus a shardblade plus kung fu grip .. ouch! Though I still have some crazy hope that something in Szeth's personal code of honor will require him to train Kaladin before doing anything else.

[Observer]

In a one on one, Kaladin loses. Maybe he's more powerful, maybe, somehow, he's a better fighter than Szeth. Szeth, however, has a Shardblade and a much better knowledge of how to use his powers and what they all do. Unlike Kaladin, all he needs is a single tap to win. IMO, Dalinar will die before Kaladin gets to have a decent fight.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Eh, I don't think Dalinar is going to die that quickly or easily. 

 

I do think that at the moment, Szeth would win in a fight between him and Kaladin, mostly due to Szeth's much greater experience with the Lashings (especially the Basic Lashing, I agree with Windrunner that it's the most versatile), but I do think Kaladin is a bit more powerful.  The Shardblade is another significant factor.  If Szeth didn't use the Shardblade, just his kammar, it would probably be pretty close. (Kammar is the Shin Aikido-type martial art, Szeth uses it with Lashings to great effect.) I think Szeth trained in that quite a bit prior to even becoming a Truthless.

[Windrunner he/him]

On a bit of a tangent, thanks for reminding me of kammar. I'd totally forgotten that that even existed. Now we have a shiny new article for it. Upvote for you!

[blari345]

Uhm, who should learn Kal about Szeth's tactics? They're all dead.

Maybe not tactics but hearing the accounts from the different battles would give a smart person a pretty good idea of Szeths abilities. If Kaladin hears about the battles it shouldn't take him that long to do a basic lashing once he know the effect he is trying to reproduce, the other two are pretty instinctive.

 

I asume that there are survivors because Szeth was ordered to be seen in the prologue so that the Alethi know who killed their king. Taravangian ordered him to use similar tactics so there should be a reasonable amount of people that have seen him fight.

 

At the end of WoK I think that Szeth is the better fighter and would win but if there is a fight between Szeth and Kaladin in WoR then I think that it will be pretty even. I can see Kaladin injuring Szeth and forcing him to withdraw.

 

The evidence in the books is certianly surgestive that Kaladin is better at holding stormlight than Szeth but I don't think that it is conclusive because there is so many differences between the two situations.

[Azul he/him]

 (Kammar is the Shin Aikido-type martial art, Szeth uses it with Lashings to great effect.) I think Szeth trained in that quite a bit prior to even becoming a Truthless.

 

What i was refering to with 'kung fu grip'  I just couldn't recall its name off hand.

[Meg]

No they aren't. If I'm remembering right, Szeth was specifically instructed in several cases to cause massive amounts of carnage and maim people.

 

 

In a one on one, Kaladin loses. Maybe he's more powerful, maybe, somehow, he's a better fighter than Szeth. Szeth, however, has a Shardblade and a much better knowledge of how to use his powers and what they all do. Unlike Kaladin, all he needs is a single tap to win. IMO, Dalinar will die before Kaladin gets to have a decent fight.

 

 

Ooops, Szeth's Blade. I totally forgot about this and surely it upsets the balance. And, too, I ignored the fact that Szeth was sometimes ordered to leave victims. I'm sorry, I'm really biased when it's about Kaladin. 

 

But nobody knows that Szeth is on his way to the Shattered Plains to kill Dalinar. So why should anybody think about Kaladin introducing to Szeth's tactics? Only to be on the safe side? That might be, but not because somebody thinks that Dalinar is in danger but because of Elhokar (he's kind of paranoid about assassins and it was his father murdered by Szeth). 

 

 

 

Eh, I don't think Dalinar is going to die that quickly or easily. 

 

I do think that at the moment, Szeth would win in a fight between him and Kaladin, mostly due to Szeth's much greater experience with the Lashings (especially the Basic Lashing, I agree with Windrunner that it's the most versatile), but I do think Kaladin is a bit more powerful.  The Shardblade is another significant factor.  If Szeth didn't use the Shardblade, just his kammar, it would probably be pretty close. (Kammar is the Shin Aikido-type martial art, Szeth uses it with Lashings to great effect.) I think Szeth trained in that quite a bit prior to even becoming a Truthless.

 

 

One more thing I forgot (Szeth's weapon-less fighting) and I agree that Szeth might be trained in kammar prior to him becoming Truthless. 

 

This reminds me of Shuden's strange ChayShan dance during the battle of Arelon (though I don't remember Szeth fighting with closed eyes.

 

 

 

Krelian said: 

However, remember that strongly Invested individuals are resistant to attempts to manipulate them with any of the magic systems we've seen thus far.

 

If Szeth and Kaladin are relatively immune to one another's powers (at least directly), I think Kaladin has the upper hand, since he's apparently a genius at close combat.

 

 

I think we agree that Kaladin can use/hold more (and longer) Stormlight. So this would be an advantage for him because Szeth might not be able to struck (or tap) him with his Shardblade? 

As for the latter: As Cheese pointed out, Szeth too is a genius at close combat. 

 

I see Kal's chances wane. I don't like this. If his better ability to hold Stormlight would result in sort of an immunity to the Shardblade this would make Szeth "weapon-less" while Kaladin could remain his spear. A little advantage for Kal again. Another little thing might be, that Kaladin -- again -- would "fight to defend and protect" (Dalinar), what means he is "in his element" while Szeth "only" does his duty. 

 

I'm sorry I omitted such a lot of facts. 

[Havoc]

It seems clear that Kaladin has a greater affinity for stormlight than Szeth. I wonder if he could 'breathe' in stromlight that Szeth was holding, leaving him with just his Shardblade to rely on.

[Arran]

As long as Szeth can use his Shardblade, then IMO he's definitely got the advantage in a duel between him and Kaladin. One nick from that, and Kaladin permanently loses the injured limb. If Kaladin could somehow force the Shardblade out of play, then I see him and Szeth as roughly equal. Maybe Kaladin could try hitting Szeth's Shardblade-holding wrist with a Stormlight-enhanced punch or kick. Szeth's wrist would regenerate due to Szeth's Stormlight, true, but for that time plus ten more heartbeats Kaladin wouldn't have to deal with the Shardblade.  

 

After that... Szeth might have a superior knowledge of Lashings at the moment, but if Kaladin and Bridge Four can perform enough experiments, that gap will swiftly close. And Kaladin can definitely absorb Stormlight more quickly efficiently than Szeth, which IMO is Kaladin's greatest advantage over Szeth. So, whether or not Kaladin can force away Szeth's Shardblade, I think the best thing he can do is absorb as much of Szeth's Stormlight as he can and force Szeth to withdraw due to unexpected lack of "magical fuel."