Erunion Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Orlion Determined said: Keep in mind, the Judeao-Christain God has also been a burning bush, cloud of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night! Being an alleged omnipotent being, it can wear however many hats it wants! There's a world of difference between 'appearing as' and being. God is said to have 'appeared to [Moses]' (exodus 3) in the burning bush. God did not say 'I am a burning bush'. Same with the cloud, and the pillar of fire/etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, Erunion said: There's a world of difference between 'appearing as' and being. God is said to have 'appeared to [Moses]' (exodus 3) in the burning bush. God did not say 'I am a burning bush'. Same with the cloud, and the pillar of fire/etc. God also didn't say he wasn't any of those things. Maybe you should quit putting implications in God's mouth God can be whatever it wants to be, provided it is omnipotent. If not, how can an omnipresent god be a localized physical (and mortal) being like Jesus? How is Jesus being God and not just God appearing as Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Ascendant Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 I'm pretty glad Islam is against slavery @Deliiiiiightful. If we were, it would be horribly ironic, because the first followers of my religion were mostly slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 41 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said: God also didn't say he wasn't any of those things. Maybe you should quit putting implications in God's mouth God can be whatever it wants to be, provided it is omnipotent. If not, how can an omnipresent god be a localized physical (and mortal) being like Jesus? How is Jesus being God and not just God appearing as Jesus? That's actually super easy - Jesus claimed to be God. The burning bush did not. You can reject Jesus' claim, of course. That's on you. More specifically, Jesus claimed to have been equal to the Father, one with the Father, to have existed before Abraham/etc. His closest friends and followers, those who knew him best (and would know best if he was BSing) claimed him to be God (and were killed for it). Of course, you could go into depth about Jesus merely being a representation of God and not God himself - that Jesus was merely a mouthpiece. Philosophers and theologians have been talking about this exact thing for 1900 years or so. I am neither a philosopher nor a theologian, simply a layman. If you are really interested in what the Christian answer to this position is, then I recommend you go to the works of philosophy and theology. For an excellent and in-depth read on what Christians actually believe, I strongly recommend 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis. Like you, Lewis was raised Christian but became an Atheist in his teenage years, (he only later became a Christian as an adult at 33). You don't need to agree with him, but I think you would find his work extremely enlightening. It really helps you to understand the core of the Christian faith, while being extremely easy to read (it was originally a radio broadcast done during WWII), and also remaining basically non-denominational (hence "Mere Christianity"). What's said there is stuff that Catholics, Orthodox, Evangelical, Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran/etc. all agree on. Give it a read. It's a short, easy to read book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 Hitting the God the Father versus Christ discussion again, LDS belief is that Christ was the eldest spiritual son of the Father, and that he was selected before the creation of the world for the "mission" of performing the atonement. Jesus Christ was different than others on earth because he was not formed by a man and a woman; Mary conceived while still a virgin. Jesus was placed in Mary by the power of God, so He, even while on Earth, was more than a man, which is what made it possible for Him to be resurrected. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Erunion said: For an excellent and in-depth read on what Christians actually believe, I strongly recommend 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis. Like you, Lewis was raised Christian but became an Atheist in his teenage years, (he only later became a Christian as an adult at 33). You don't need to agree with him, but I think you would find his work extremely enlightening. It really helps you to understand the core of the Christian faith, while being extremely easy to read (it was originally a radio broadcast done during WWII), and also remaining basically non-denominational (hence "Mere Christianity"). What's said there is stuff that Catholics, Orthodox, Evangelical, Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran/etc. all agree on. Give it a read. It's a short, easy to read book. As an LDS member (i.e. Mormon), I must agree. While there are some things in Mere Christianity that vary slightly between most Christian denomination (as Elenion noted above, our view of the Trinity is different), the book is impressive in how simplistically and yet capably it conveys concepts. I especially the logical proof Lewis uses to "prove" the existence of a higher power in the first chapters. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 Sorry, I meant to respond to what @Erunion said in response to me earlier, but I've been really busy lately. Anyway, I never said I actually believe that nothing is real but my perceived reality. I actually believe that the world is real, and that it's been around for a very long time, and will go on for even longer once I'm gone. I just think it'd be interesting (and suck a lot) if it's all just in my head. I realize the dangers of that thinking, and I'm nowhere near disregarding human life due to that thinking; I'd rather not risk that everyone else actually does exist (which I believe they do). Also, in response to how people have been talking about the Trinity, I, too, was always sort of confused by it as well. Maybe it I misunderstood what I was being taught, but I thought that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were more like the same deity, just different versions of that deity. I can't think of how to describe what I'm trying to say.... I think a good example (probably not though) is almost like a multiple personality disorder, with three different versions of the same guy doing different things. Except they all exist at the same time, know of each other, and one of them is the son of one of the others. I confused myself. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 @StrikerEZ - No problem! And it's easy to confuse yourself on that topic - but to paraphrase Lewis, the real world is rarely simple. It's rarely clean, and almost never easy to really understand. Think of looking at a table - simple, right? You look and its there. Simple for all practical purposes. But if you really want to understand it? Then it's an incredibly complex matter - we start discussing electromagnetism, light reflected off of atoms, wavelengths, the structure of the eye and the optic nerve, a deep, complex matter. Why then should it surprise us that the deep, real nature of God is not simple? Certainly, for all practical purposes you don't need to think/worry about these things. Just as you don't need to when looking at a table, but if you seek true understanding you have to go deep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 This is something I like about this community. Politics is a no-no but deep, detailed, respectful discussions about the intricacies and even merits of religion are cool. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 7 hours ago, StrikerEZ said: Also, in response to how people have been talking about the Trinity, I, too, was always sort of confused by it as well. Maybe it I misunderstood what I was being taught, but I thought that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were more like the same deity, just different versions of that deity. I can't think of how to describe what I'm trying to say.... Dunno if this helps, but there's a story Irish kids hear when we're in school to explain that. See, when Saint Patrick was trying to teach the Irish Christianity, he had to explain the concept of the Trinity to them. And the Trinity was a strange concept; so, what he did was he picked up a shamrock. The Trinity, he explained, was like a shamrock; three distinct parts, separate from one another, but still part of the one thing and the one whole. ... Of course, I'm not a very good Christian, so I'mma gonna kick this out to people who are vastly more well-versed in this topic than I am @TwiLyghtSansSparkles @Erunion Does the shamrock metaphor hold up under scrutiny? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Staccato Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 7 hours ago, Extesian said: This is something I like about this community. Politics is a no-no but deep, detailed, respectful discussions about the intricacies and even merits of religion are cool. That's to be expected. Though it's never explicit, I love the way Brandon puts religion into context in his books - I am deeply moved whenever he goes into detail about the intricacies of faith at the same time never putting up a blazing defense on the matter. It's always more of a 'take it as it is' matter to him. I am Christian, but I don't practice it - nor do I profess to be an atheist. See, where I live, people thinks it's cool to be an atheist - and I have nothing against atheism, some of my best friends are atheists and they happen to understand religion better than most people who are in religions. I just hate it when people arbitrarily declare themselves to be non-believers simply because they don't have faith - which to me just seems to be an excuse to be free of moral obligations - not knowing that most atheists arrive at that point because of an intensive scrutiny of their faith rather than simply reaching for an off-switch. Whenever people ask me about what I believe in I simply say I believe in something that doesn't adhere to how religions play it. But religion fascinates me in the sense that it teaches faith, and that I have also learned long ago that the simplest way to live your life without suffering from a crisis of faith is to simply believe that the concept of God and religion are mutually exclusive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 @Quiver That's one of the best explanations I've heard. C.S. Lewis used a corner - there are three separate lines/planes that intersect, but only one corner. Mormons actually believe that the three are separate beings; however, because they are all perfect and have the same objectives and desires, they act as one. Like when you have two people who know each other so well you only need to ask one to know what the other would want. However, I've always found it best to try and understand others beliefs and I think the shamrock/corner analogies work very well for explaining that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 @Quiver - it works as well as any, and it's one I heard a long time ago but forgot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverblade5 Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 @Deliiiiiightful@Darkness Ascendant Actually, I think the bible is pretty clear on slavery. The eighth commandment, which is given in Exodus, and is therefore acknowledged by Christianity, Judaism, and I believe Islam, is to not steal. Slavery is the theft of one's freedom, dignity, the fruits of one's labor, and often the theft of life, which is murder, and violates another commandment. Therefore, I'm pretty sure the bible is explicitly against slavery. What's depicted in the bible as OK, and is often called slavery by the masses, is generally forms of indentured servitude. This is OK because it's a donation, not theft. The indentured servant is consenting to giving their time, freedom, labor, and the results of their labor to a master. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 22 minutes ago, Silverblade5 said: @Deliiiiiightful@Darkness Ascendant Actually, I think the bible is pretty clear on slavery. The eighth commandment, which is given in Exodus, and is therefore acknowledged by Christianity, Judaism, and I believe Islam, is to not steal. Slavery is the theft of one's freedom, dignity, the fruits of one's labor, and often the theft of life, which is murder, and violates another commandment. Therefore, I'm pretty sure the bible is explicitly against slavery. What's depicted in the bible as OK, and is often called slavery by the masses, is generally forms of indentured servitude. This is OK because it's a donation, not theft. The indentured servant is consenting to giving their time, freedom, labor, and the results of their labor to a master. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverblade5 Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 20 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said: By that logic, any form of employment is slavery with extra steps. Most of the elements I mentioned in indentured servitude are present in job contracts. The relinquishing of control, time, authority. Only difference that I, as someone who's never been employed, can think of is that an indentured servant is living on the same land as the employer and is being compensated with food, water, and shelter instead of cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliasSheep Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 Just now, Silverblade5 said: By that logic, any form of employment is slavery with extra steps. Most of the elements I mentioned in indentured servitude are present in job contracts. The relinquishing of control, time, authority. Only difference that I, as someone who's never been employed, can think of is that an indentured servant is living on the same land as the employer and is being compensated with food, water, and shelter instead of cash. It is extremely hard for me not to post a sickle and hammer right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiLyghtSansSparkles Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 *walks in* *sees current topic* 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverblade5 Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 27 minutes ago, AliasSheep said: It is extremely hard for me not to post a sickle and hammer right now. I am confused by this statement. Could you please explain what you mean? If you're trying to express a problem with my post, could you identify which part is problematic so I can either fix it or try to clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Ascendant Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 @Silverblade5 Doesn't also say that slavery is the natural state of man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiLyghtSansSparkles Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 9 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said: @Silverblade5 Doesn't also say that slavery is the natural state of man? Okay, breaking my promise.... I can't say I've ever heard that verse. Do you have a reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Ascendant Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 Just now, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said: Okay, breaking my promise.... I can't say I've ever heard that verse. Do you have a reference? not sure, I read it a while ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiLyghtSansSparkles Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said: not sure, I read it a while ago Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Ascendant Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 46 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said: Where? It was a quote on...9gag I think. Somone was answering another person challenging their cristian views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 6 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said: It was a quote on...9gag I think. Somone was answering another person challenging their cristian views. Hmm there was a philosophy of Aristotle about slavery being the natural state for some people, to say that it is better for some people who don't have the ability to reason properly (their 'souls' are sufficiently different from 'normal' humans) to be slaves. That's their natural state. But that for 'normal' humans slavery is not natural and shouldn't be enforced only by law or strength. It was a way to protect normal Greek citizens from slavery but justify 'barbarians' being made slaves. It's been confused sometimes with a Biblical verse. Not sure if that's what you're thinking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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