Long Game 12: Shadows of Elantris

[Bort he/him]

Bort: why put a second vote on Dowanx? Why not question, say, Wonko? (Wilson and Mek's motives are mostly clear by now, and Phattemer is beyond reach for discussion)

 

Because Wonko wasn't the one that selected someone for death. Wilson suggested Feligon. Wonko agreed in principle to lynch an inactive/lurker. Dowanx named Feligon, and got the bandwagon rolling.

 

Edit: Went back and reminded myself of the post I voted for Dow in. As I said in that post, there were a number of people that said in the sign up thread that they were going to be away for the weekend. As well as the above reason, Dowanx was the one that suggested we lynched inactives/lurkers from day one. Knowing some of them were away, this doesn't really strike me as fair play.

 

Edit 2: I'm Spartacus too! Wait, no, I'm Brian!!! And so's my wife!!! No, still not right. Oh, yeah. Not a convert.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Bort

[Metacognition he/him]

MenE continued to sweep and sweep some more. It was soothing in its own way. 

 

To him, it seemed like everyone had quieted down; as if the deaths of their fellow man had driven the point home to them. They could be next.

 

It could also be due to the Cultists being more than acceptable of the targets of the current gossip. After all, MenE knew that at least he wouldn't go to his death quietly. Even if his protests wouldn't come out right due to his inability to put them into words. He would still scream and shout though. 

 

This room seemed different. It was almost as if they were guided to their decision....

 

He lost his focus on Duke Pifferdan. MenE would get his answer one way or the other eventually. 

Instead, his focus started to draw towards Kae and Jain. It seemed as it they were trying to guide the rumors that were spreading around and were trying to use any excuse to get someone else killed. 

 

He swept a little closer towards them, so that he could listen in on their conversations.... 

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

Mmph.

 

I bet after how much I posted last Day Cycle, you guys expected me to keep to that pattern. Obviously, I haven't. Most of my theories died with Orlok, and the fact that he wasn't in love with Araris.

 

There's a line of reasoning that I want to address, though: That of wanting to kill Dowanx or Wonko for starting the lynch train last night: I think it's totally wrong. 

 

We have proven that both me (at the time) and Orlok were innocent 100%. It's been GM certified. Both of us were perfectly viable lynch targets last cycle. Two villager lynch targets. Why, may I ask, would the Eliminators attempt to start a Bandwagon on a random inactive when they could easily cut down on the number of actively posting players? In fact, I posit that that's exactly what they did. Look at the voting manipulation performed on me! Orlok and Araris couldn't account for the royal who brought Stephen onto me and the Keeper who secretly voted for me at the same time. They tried to kill me! Even if the voting manipulation onto me could be attributed to other sources (unlikely, seeing as from what I'm reading, most people were leaning towards my side of the Mek/Orlok thing,) why completely upend this wonderful cycle with a random attempt at a bandwagon? So imprecise, random, and pointless. It makes absolutely no sense.

 

I sort of want to slap Lightsworn on the wrist for being so aggressive in pursuing this line of reasoning, but I'll resist voting for him until he tells his side again, since I can see how it could be appealing. That being said, I don't really have anyone in mind for lynching right now. We'll see what goes down.

 

Oh, and for the record, I voted for Fel because I saw him as a workable alternative for Orlok, for whom I had sort of lost my confidence in as a target. It was basically that simple.

 

You wot m9? You wont to go me bruh? 1 v 1 me IRL m80, never lost a fight! No wone messes with Panda! 

 

Jain, I didn't agree with the targets that were up for a lynch.  Both of the players were active and there wasn't any valid reasoning behind lynching either of them.  I thought and still do think that lynching an inactive is currently the best option for the village.  

 

That being said there was an another benefit from doing it last minute.  It generated a lot of discussion and more importantly we got to see last minute actions of several people which will be helpful later on.  If there wasn't a GM error we would of had even more information.  I am actually confused why you think it was a bad thing that it happened the way it did.  No one likes last minute bandwagons, but in this case I think it was valuable.

 

I stand by what I did, but I would like to ask you why are you focusing on me above others?  

 

You created discussion, but also a fair amount of confusion and suspicion, and the discussion was mostly over why you did it, which is more obstructive to the Village than it is beneficial.

 

I'm largely focusing you because of the last minute bandwagon. However, you've given enough reasoning for now, dowanx.

 

Wonko, you still haven't responded to your accusations.

 

Edit: Missing Text

Edited May 27, 2015 by Lightsworn Panda

[Kasimir he/him]

I come back to all the things. >>

So, I'm not quite sure, but I think I am somewhat convinced by Mek's reasoning that it seems the move towards Fel's lynch makes little sense in the light of Mek having been Arelon-aligned. (This is no comment about what Mek is now; it just matters to note that the person on the chopping block (Mek), the other person on the chopping block (Orlok) had both been Villagers and therefore it makes little sense for Eliminators to direct the lynch train towards someone else completely (Fel) at personal risk.) Therefore, while I would still like a response from Wonko about why he thought publicly airing candidates for roles might be a good idea, he is, for now, not a priority on my suspicion list. There are other things to keep in mind: if Alv is correct about the Gyorn, it does indicate that people with Seons need to start getting in contact with Elantris stat, if they haven't already done so. (I'm none too happy about the continued trend of helping the Gyorn strategise--why people, why? Jain and Alv, I'm looking at you--but at least in Alv's case, I will accept it, for now, as a contribution which highlights our need to have people talking between Elantris and Kae.) People with Seons, the Elantrians are silenced. But we need to know what's going on in Elantris and ignoring Elantris is not going to be to our advantage in the long run when Elantris has secrets and seems to be a wildcard. Pick a trusted contact to disperse information to the thread if you're worried about being a target. The spice information must flow; information is power, so use it.

While I'm not sure what to make of Jain, my vote will go for now to spencer. I know Wyrm's game looks really awesome, but frankly, mate, if you have time to join Wyrm's 1 year game, you sure have time to check the thread and contribute.

 

Edit: Fail coding is fail.

 

Edit 2: This backhanded advertisement has been purchased by Heron Industries^TM. Be part of the wave of the future with Heron Industries^TM.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Kasimir

[The Honey Badger he/him]

I agree with Kasimir, the Elantrians are dangerous, they are a good hiding spot for cultists/odivs. 

Option 1- We can Lynch them all, this is a terrible idea because we will probably do more harm than good, but there probably is a cultist Elantrian given the numbers, and spreading things out. 

 

Option 2- The seon holders can establish regular PM's with them. Unfortunately the cultists probably have a seon. The seon holders could PM someone they trust the next cycle with the information, for that person to post. 

 

I really don't know what to do, I think that establishing contact wold be smart, but lynching them all, might protect us from festering threats. 

(By the way, I am not trying to sound bloodthirsty, I am just being logical in my options, we all know that wilson is the bloodthirsty one)

 

I think that people without seons (like myself) need to be proactive in getting information, So Mailliw, I will take you up on your offer

[Claincy he/him]

Curious, is Claincy usually quiet when he plays? He's only popped in once or twice (I think?).

No. My activity levels vary but it's always more than this. As I noted when I signed up I really can't participate in the early couple of cycles, I just don't have the time (or health). I am barely mostly managing to catch up with the thread at irregular intervals. So at least when I do have time to participate in another couple of days I won't have to spend hours trying to work out what the heck is going on.

[Kasimir he/him]

I generally dislike being misrepresented. (Five years of university does that to you, I guess. Leaving aside my Eternal E'lir-ness...) Because of this, I will clarify my position.
 
I am not claiming that Elantris is dangerous. To do so is to misrepresent my position and my argument in a crude way. I am claiming that it is dangerous to ignore Elantris. There are several reasons for this:
 
1. As Alv has pointed out, it is possible for Elantris to harbour converts, who are unable to report to us.
 
2. We know that Elantris has secrets that will potentially affect gameplay; possibly even the outcome. Consequently, we ignore Elantris at our peril.
 
3. Badger focuses on the potential cultists and converts hidden in Elantris. But now I half-take back my claim: to focus on the potential cultists and converts in Elantris is to be fundamentally mistaken. The number afflicted by the Shaod is only going to go up, people. What happens when Meta is hit by the Shaod? Or Wilson? Shall we get rid of them too just in case? Even if we don't get rid of them, do you realise that because they cannot speak to the thread, we have suffered the loss of active players who are capable of good analysis? What about if we lose Luckat? Wonko?
 
My points are several.
 
A. If we focus on the potential converts, we are ignoring a bigger problem: right now, being an Elantrian is to cost the Village a valuable resource--your voice. I've said this before, people, and I'll say it again. Especially when you're a regular, your voice and your vote is your power. Discussion is our ally. To suffer Elantrian voices to be cut off from us is the greatest loss. It is the cruelest cut of all.
 
B. I argue that Seons are not just effectively mobilised in PMing. I believe Meta and Claincy said as much in my first game: we have survived before without the ability to PM other players and we will do so again, if we must. Public discussion is far more important. IMO, the greatest power of Seons is to bridge the Elantris-Kae divide and to allow the Elantrians to both be interrogated as well as to contribute to this discussion. I, for one, am severely regretting the loss of Ren's voice here.
 
C. I would suggest that a more effective way to mobilise Seons is to therefore speak to the Elantrians and to have them speak back to us. To relay words from the Elantrians back to the main thread. Sure, we can do the whole 'locate the priest' thing on the side. But this is more important. To those who remember--I was the Tineye in QF6 and the whole power of that role was to be able to broadcast what was going on in one room to everyone in the game. My point is that the same thing applies here. People with Seons, you are better spent relaying information and promulgating it (without copying and pasting) rather than searching behind the scenes here for allies or a second commentary on thread discussion.
 
In fact, precisely because the ability to PM is by a Seon, which counts as an item, we have an advantage here. Normally, a Messenger who passed messages would find themselves an immediate target from Team Evil because their whole point is to shut down channels of communication.
 
But guess what? A Seon is an item.
 
So, just to recap: this post has two points. My first point is to urge communication with Elantris and the relaying of Elantrian knowledge into this thread. Seon-people, you clearly have at least one contact so far. If you are worried about being made a target, you may contact an Elantrian at night and have a contact relay what has been said in the day.
 
But there is another option, and here I come to my more contentious point. (I suspect this will be hated by many.)
 
...You can pass on the Seon.
 
You can relay the information to the thread and then keep the Seon moving around. A passing action only happens at the end of the Turn. In the meanwhile, your message thread remains open. Furthermore, you may make your recepient known to a trusted contact or to the thread. This prevents the Eliminators from being able to simply execute all the messengers. If the recepient does not relay information and pass on the Seon in their turn, we will know something is fishy.
 
But to add to this: you stop being a target for the Eliminators as you no longer have a Seon (at least for that Turn.) Furthermore, if the Eliminator hits you, the Seon still goes on to the recipient. (I am clarifying with Hreo on this as it is currently unclear if the Seon will go instead to your heir.) If the recipient is hit, the Seon goes back to you. We know there are only two conditions under which Seon loss happens and one of them is when the Shaod hits. But each player has precisely the same odds of being hit by the Shaod.
 
My suggestion is that this allows us to maximise our messaging capacities, especially when Elantris expands, instead of having Seon-holders hoard information that cannot help public discussion right now. I know of at least two Seon-holders who have purportedly contacted Elantrians. None of this information is trickling down to the thread and that is seriously problematic.
 
I don't think this will be a popular suggestion for obvious reasons. But my second point is really just this: it's not your role that matters. Roles are not sacred. What matters is how we use them.
 

 

Edited for typo.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Kasimir

[Haelbarde he/him]

No. My activity levels vary but it's always more than this. As I noted when I signed up I really can't participate in the early couple of cycles, I just don't have the time (or health). I am barely mostly managing to catch up with the thread at irregular intervals. So at least when I do have time to participate in another couple of days I won't have to spend hours trying to work out what the heck is going on.

Acknowledged, and fair enough. Hope things get better. Might have missed where you said that before, but just wanted to bring you up - you experienced players concern me (you all being, well, experienced) along with the fact I have no personal reference of how you are all like to play along side.

Re: Elantrians and the Gyorn/Odiv. I had assumed that an Elantrian Odiv could only convert Elantrians, and so wouldn't be very useful at all. Did I misread things?

[Kasimir he/him]

Mods and Almighty GMs, would like to make a quick apology. I realised there was a typo in my post and decided to fix it--and didn't realise that the M'Hael had posted after me :/ Sorry about the mess. Will be more careful about checking in future.
 
-Kas.

[Bort he/him]

I wouldn't worry too much about it Hael. The more experienced players worry everyone, including each other.

[Haelbarde he/him]

Mods and Almighty GMs, would like to make a quick apology. I realised there was a typo in my post and decided to fix it--and didn't realise that the M'Hael had posted after me :/ Sorry about the mess. Will be more careful about checking in future.

-Kas.

Heh, M'Hael.

What was the typo even. Misspellings I wouldn't have thought would be an issue. Wrong term/name or using the negative of what you intended?

[Kasimir he/him]

Heh, M'Hael.

What was the typo even. Misspellings I wouldn't have thought would be an issue. Wrong term/name or using the negative of what you intended?

You'd be surprised. I get pretty OCD about clearing out mispellings and grammatical errors. And am capable of suffering conniptions over a misplaced comma or a missing space.

But you're also right. In this case, my brain must've shut off for a few seconds because I was recommending that people tell themselves where their Seon was going to, which made absolutely zero sense. (Note to self: sleep is god. Go worship. If you babble like this in your thesis, you will die.)

 

And Bort has it right. The experienced players all worry each other (well, I guess unless you're Meta or Aonar, in which case you just regard the rest of them with amusement maybe), and being experienced doesn't make us more dangerous or anything. So don't worry about not being able to get a read on us, because frankly, that's a good thing. You shouldn't trust me, for one. I wouldn't trust me. If I'm experienced, then it's not in a way that makes me a better player. It just means I've had more chances than most to screw up in these games, to the point that I've learned to trust no one, no matter how badly I might want to.

 

#Wyrm #MR1 #neverforget

[Haelbarde he/him]

You'd be surprised. I get pretty OCD about clearing out mispellings and grammatical errors. And am capable of suffering conniptions over a misplaced comma or a missing space.

But you're also right. In this case, my brain must've shut off for a few seconds because I was recommending that people tell themselves where their Seon was going to, which made absolutely zero sense. (Note to self: sleep is god. Go worship. If you babble like this in your thesis, you will die.)

 

And Bort has it right. The experienced players all worry each other (well, I guess unless you're Meta or Aonar, in which case you just regard the rest of them with amusement maybe), and being experienced doesn't make us more dangerous or anything. So don't worry about not being able to get a read on us, because frankly, that's a good thing. You shouldn't trust me, for one. I wouldn't trust me. If I'm experienced, then it's not in a way that makes me a better player. It just means I've had more chances than most to screw up in these games, to the point that I've learned to trust no one, no matter how badly I might want to.

 

#Wyrm #MR1 #neverforget

Right. No, I'd definitely go back and fix grammatical and spelling mistakes.

I think, of all the more experienced players, you have got to be the most annoying, though through no fault of your own. My perception is that we think in similar ways, which makes me feel really divided about if I can trust you :/

[Bort he/him]

Don't be silly Hael. Of course you can't trust him. What did he just say? Don't trust anyone!

 

I think though, I've worked out why the Cultists didn't kill one of the more experienced players first. Fear. They kill one of them (Kas, or Wilson, Meta, Claincy, whoever) and the rest go on some crazy slaughter-fest, leaving the SE forum a tattered, bloody mess.

[Herowannabe he/him]

Furthermore, if the Eliminator hits you, the Seon still goes on to the recipient. (I am clarifying with Hreo on this as it is currently unclear if the Seon will go instead to your heir.)

The gifting of items happens AFTER player deaths, so if either player dies the transaction is canceled.

However, with Seons, you ARE able to gift your Seon to someone and name them as your heir at the same time, ensuring that it will reach that person even if you die.

[Metacognition he/him]

Don't be silly Hael. Of course you can't trust him. What did he just say? Don't trust anyone!

 

 

Don't be silly, Bort! You all can trust me!

[Guest]

Don't be silly, Bort! You all can trust me!

I trust you, Meta! After all, it's not like you expertly manipulated me in very first game or anything!

1. @Kasimir, does Hero's clarification change your opinion about the Seons at all? Just curious.

2. @Mailliw I wouldn't mind contact.

3. I suspect that the first convert was an Elantrian, as it makes the most sense for the Gyorn. If the convert was a non-Elantrian, the convert would really only have the option of admitting it in-thread, even if he/she was the Odiv. As such, the ONLY likely possibilities as I see them are:

A. The convert is an Elantrian.

B. The convert is a non-Elantrian who has been inactive. I don't watch players closely enough to know about this one.

C. The convert is a non-Elantrian who just hasn't revealed. This possibility is so slight as to be worthless.

I strongly lean towards #3. In fact, as we see, the Seon holders are not telling us about Elantris. This creates an even better situation for the Gyorn. If he converts more and more people in Elantris as they come, the situation improves. As we in the main thread lynch people also in the main thread, the Gyorn's (and possibly the Odiv's) stack of converts piles higher.

4. Did I miss a clarification about whether an Elantrian Odiv could convert those outside of Elantris?

[little wilson she/her]

Maill, I also would like to be contacted.

 

We're not really making much headway today, are we? Kipper, which option do you think? You've got that you think it's an Elantrian, and then you say you think #3, which is the non-Elantrian option. I'm of the opinion that the convert was an Elantrian and probably an inactive one (so probably Neo, since Ren and Zas are both probably active). However, there's a chance it could've been one of those two, and if that's the case, at least one of the Seon holders knows, because I'm almost positive that someone is in contact with Elantris right now. If a Seon holder knows who the convert is (assuming they're an Elantrian) and you're hesitant to say because you don't want to put a target on your back due to your Seon, I suggest using Kas' gifting idea. It would be useful to know where the Gyorn is converting. By gifting your Seon, the Cultists likely won't kill you since you'll no longer have it, kolo?       

 

Moving on from the conversion (I think we've spent too much time talking about that), suspects. I think Mek made a very good point about the lynch set-up yesterday. What with the noble (since it could've been either Prince/Princess or Duke/Duchess) moving Walin's vote there and the Keeper vote on Mek, it's pretty obvious they were trying to kill him. I don't think that the bandwagon was orchestrated by the Cultists. That said, there's a decent chance a Cultist voted in the bandwagon, probably late. Since we don't know what Fel was/Mek is now, it could've been insurance for another innocent death or it could've been an attempt to seem more trusted if Fel was a Cultist. This makes me look at two of the last three people to vote. The last three votes were from Wonko, Mek, and Phatt. Obviously, it's not Mek we're looking at (at least in reference to this. He could be an eliminator now), so that leaves Wonko and Phatt. I'm not sure which one I'm more interested in, since either are valid. Phatt said some suspicious things during Day 1, but he got in contact with me last night with his Seon (I have no trouble saying that now since it's corrupted and therefore not a threat) and now I don't really know what to think about him. I don't trust him but I don't distrust him either. Wonko's quick vote switch strikes me as off too, especially since he laid a vote on Mek and then almost immediately switched it over to Fel. And I don't think he's explained that switch very well.

 

However, Wonko already has three votes on him, and I'm not certain enough to tack another on.

 

I'd also like to mention Jain and Winter, as Meta already did. The attempt on Mek had already been discussed during the night, so the fact that Jain jumped on right at the start of the day to direct focus back to the bandwagon on Fel (when we don't know what alignment he was) strikes me as odd. And Winter's more of a gut feeling than anything else. I do still have suspicions of Maill, but his comment has me rethinking. (Which is exactly why I'd like to be contacted by whomever your contact is, Maill)

 

We've got a little under 7 hours left in the cycle, and with the votes as spread out as they are (and only 3 on the highest), I'm worried there will be another last minute bandwagon on a lurker. Personally, I'd advise against a bandwagon like that today, since there's enough info in the thread that lynching someone like Wonko or Jain would provide even more fodder for discussion tomorrow.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I'm not sure about lynching Wonko. It seems like, as an eliminator, he would not go inactive right after advocating for lynching the inactive players. I suspect that he is busy IRL, since otherwise he probably would have responded to having three votes. However, I'm not too sure about Jain either. Bringing up the lynch again at the start of the day isn't too strange, since the night and the day discussions don't usually have the same focus. I guess I don't feel super strongly about either of our suspects, but I would prefer to lynch Wonko right now of the two.

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

Kas, I was outlining the potential playstyle and predicting the Gyorn's targets in my post.

 

Haha, looks like whenever I stick my head out for discussion I get shot right back. True, my argument in hindsight was  rather idiotic. Back to the shadows for me.   

[Metacognition he/him]

Haha, looks like whenever I stick my head out for discussion I get shot right back. True, my argument in hindsight was  rather idiotic. Back to the shadows for me.   

 

MenE didn't like it much at all, but he couldn't figure out how to put it into words so that everyone else would be able to understand him. 

 

Jain was redirecting. He wasn't removing his vote (even after admitting to it being less than ideal) or anything like that. He hadn't given a rebuttal to the arguments against him; just that he wasn't going to contribute anymore. His actions and his words didn't match up, which was very suspicious to MenE. It was almost as if Jain just wanted someone to die and wasn't going to give up the chance to get either Dow or Won dead. 

 

But whenever MenE tried to open his mouth to explain all of this, he couldn't get his words in the right order. So he kept sweeping and whispering to himself, "Suspicous. Supicous..."

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

MenE didn't like it much at all, but he couldn't figure out how to put it into words so that everyone else would be able to understand him.

Jain was redirecting. He wasn't removing his vote (even after admitting to it being less than ideal) or anything like that. He hadn't given a rebuttal to the arguments against him; just that he wasn't going to contribute anymore. His actions and his words didn't match up, which was very suspicious to MenE. It was almost as if Jain just wanted someone to die and wasn't going to give up the chance to get either Dow or Won dead.

But whenever MenE tried to open his mouth to explain all of this, he couldn't get his words in the right order. So he kept sweeping and whispering to himself, "Suspicous. Supicous..."

Oh? So you're pressuring me to take away my vote?

I actually did intend to remove my vote, following the positive response to my points, along with saying that I'm not a Converted, but I forgot to say that (the second twice). Wonko

[Metacognition he/him]

(No RP. Getting lazy! )

 

Nope. No pressure, feel free to leave your vote there. I'm just pointing out that it's very suspicious to point out that your reasoning for doing something might not have been the best, but then you continue to do it anyways. And now you're redirecting again when called out for it. When did you start getting so aggressive about these things, Jain? This isn't how you've played before, which makes me wonder whether or not there's a reason for your aggressiveness this time- like perhaps because you're a Cultist. 

 

It's one thing to follow a bad string of logic, admit that there were factors that you hadn't accounted for, and then try to make amends. It's entirely another to continue to follow that same logic through and then also attack anyone who points it out. It just doesn't seem like a very Villager thing to do to me. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Metacognition

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

(No RP. Getting lazy! )

Nope. No pressure, feel free to leave your vote there. I'm just pointing out that it's very suspicious to point out that your reasoning for doing something might not have been the best, but then you continue to do it anyways. And now you're redirecting again when called out for it. When did you start getting so aggressive about these things, Jain? This isn't how you've played before, which makes me wonder whether or not there's a reason for your aggressiveness this time- like perhaps because you're a Cultist.

It's one thing to follow a bad string of logic, admit that there were factors that you hadn't accounted for, and then try to make amends. It's entirely another to continue to follow that same logic through and then also attack anyone who points it out. It just doesn't seem like a very Villager thing to do to me.

Read my first post in the game, please. I've tried this playstyle before, too, in MR 3 or 4.

Look, I'm just sick of the attention and suspicion I'm getting for a mistake. Pardon me if I'm getting counter-aggressive.

[Alvron]

Vote Tally:

Haelbarde : Clanky

Karlin : Dow

Dow : Jain, Bort

Luckat : Kas

Wonko : Araris, Maill, Kas, Jain

Clanky : Winter, Kipper

Lord Piff : Meta

Spencer : Dow, Kas

Alv : Aonar

Maill : Wilson

Twei : Clanky

Jain : Meta

 

Currently with the votes tied and only at two, anyone who has a vote on them could be taken out via Vote Manipulators/Debtorness.