Does Szeth need Breath to wield Nightblood?

[mhelvens]

I was pretty excited when Nightblood showed up at the end of Words of Radiance. I've read almost all of Brandon's books, and this was the first obvious crossover between different series. (The second, if you count Hoid as obvious.)

 

This leads me to wonder how different magic systems of the 'cosmere' are going to interact. The Szeth question in the header is kind of representative of that more general question, but the conversation doesn't need to be restricted to Szeth. The members of this forum seem to have sources of information beyond the books, so please enlighten a fan who doesn't.

 

From Warbreaker, it seems that when Nightblood is unsheathed, it will continuously drain BioChromatic Breaths from its wielder, and kill any wielder who doesn't have Breath. But there doesn't seem to be a steady source of Breaths on Roshar for Szeth to use.

 

Or maybe there is? Can Breath on Roshar be transferred from one person to another by saying the words (My life to yours, ...)? Maybe it's just never been tried?

 

Alternatively, could Nightblood be powered by Stormlight instead? Are Breath and Stormlight (and metals, and whatever powers Aeons, ...) really the same thing?

 

Cheers!

Edited April 11, 2015 by mhelvens

[natc]

Investiture is investiture. If you hack the system properly you can probably even steelpush with stormlight. I mean, Vasher is still alive over here.

Nightblood just gobbles investiture in general anyway. Human souls and breath were just the most convenient source.

[Edgedancer]

Nightblood could be powered with any form of Investure, as can all forms of magic but most are harder to pull of, meaning Stormlight is a valid form of fuel for him. So if Szeth regains the ability to draw in Stormlight he should be able to wield Nightblood. In fact I don't know if you already know but there's also someone else in WoR that uses Stormlight to replace Breath.

 

Metals and Aons are a bit different than Breath and Stormlight, though. Those aren't Investure themselves but act as a focus to shape Investure. For AonDor the Investure is, as you might guess, the Dor that already is flowing into the Elantrians and is waiting to be released. I don't think we have a direct statement from Brandon for this but it seems safe to assume that an Elantrian, that constantly gets filled with Investure in the form of the Dor, should be able to wield Nightblood relative safety.

 

With Allomancy the metals act as a beacon for the power of Preservation, which then gets shaped by the metal burned. (The God Metals, like Atium and Lerasium are an exception here.) The fact that Allomancers usually don't hold the Investure themselves means unless they do some magic-system hacking they couldn't properly wield Nightblood. Internal metals such as pewter might given them a bit of a slight edge compared to a normal person but not a whole lot. (again only my guess)

Edited April 11, 2015 by Edgedancer

[mhelvens]

Nightblood could be powered with any form of Investure, as can all forms of magic but most are harder to pull of, meaning Stormlight is a valid form of fuel for him. So if Szeth regains the ability to draw in Stormlight he should be able to wield Nightblood. In fact I don't know if you already know but there's also someone else in WoR that uses Stormlight to replace Breath.

 

I did notice that Wit (Hoid) mentioned having attained perfect pitch, implying that he had reached the Second Heightening. However, the Heightenings don't seem to consume Breaths, so he doesn't need a steady supply. I just assumed he acquired (at least) 200 Breaths while he was on Nalthis. Is there any official source for the claim that he is 'hacking' the magic systems?

 

If you're referring to someone else, please go ahead. I'm not concerned about spoilers at this point.

[Edgedancer]

I did notice that Wit (Hoid) mentioned having attained perfect pitch, implying that he had reached the Second Heightening. However, the Heightenings don't seem to consume Breaths, so he doesn't need a steady supply. I just assumed he acquired (at least) 200 Breaths while he was on Nalthis. Is there any official source for the claim that he is 'hacking' the magic systems?

 

If you're referring to someone else, please go ahead. I'm not concerned about spoilers at this point.

Talking about Hoid, he also used Allomancy in that one Shallan flashback with the festival and uses Feruchemy to know where to go and still has Lightweaving from his original world.

 

Zahel is Vasher.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Edgedancer

[mhelvens]

Talking about Hoid, he also used Allomancy in that one Shallan flashback with the festival and uses Feruchemy to know where to go and still has Lightweaving from his original world.

 

Zahel is Vasher.

 

Hehe. I'm gonna have to re-read a couple of chapters, I see. ;-)

 

Thanks!

[restless]

Somewhat related question:

How is Szeth "made-into" skybreaker?

Is Nalan able to provide a Nahel bond (eg spren) to him?

That will mean that Heralds can make anyone they choose into Radiant...

[natc]

Somewhat related question:

How is Szeth "made-into" skybreaker?

Is Nalan able to provide a Nahel bond (eg spren) to him?

That will mean that Heralds can make anyone they choose into Radiant...

Who said anything about him being a skybreaker?

[MoS03]

Zahel certainly appears to be utilizing stormlight to maintain his breaths, so there's no reason to assume Szeth can't gain investiture, even without a spren. I mean, unless Zahel has found a willing spren? Or, his nature as a Returned allows it somehow?

Nightblood is going to be great, I miss his banter. I do however wonder if Nightblood's caveats are understood by anyone on Roshar aside from Zahel. Perhaps without Breaths on Roshar in every person, Nightblood will just use all his stormlight, then stop?

[Curiosity]

My theory:

 

Szeth behaves like a Skybreaker (justly and confidently) with the potential to attract a highspren. Nalan can't guarantee a Nahel bond, but he does see potential in Szeth. I also think that Nalan has redefined what the Skybreakers are. He seems to have collected lieutenants who are loyal to him and the principles he pursues (See Lift's interlude). These are not Knights Radiant. Perhaps Nalan hopes that highspren will be attracted to these individuals, but he cannot guarantee it. He calls these people Skybreakers. 

[Elsecaller3414]

I personally think that Szeth is very likely to become a Radiant.  He has to have been broken, and he even started to wonder if he was going mad, because every time he closed his eyes, he heard the screams of those he killed.  Being rejected about the return of the Radiants, then being forced to kill hundreds of people, maybe thousands, has got to at least crack him.

[navybrandt]

Can't the Knights Radiant make squires - or at least gain them in someway? Perhaps different orders can make their own at will and other orders gain them randomly (speculation). The Heralds, like Nalan (probably), might be able to do this as well. Anyway, maybe Nalan is only making Szeth into a squire.

[Bort]

I personally think that Szeth is very likely to become a Radiant.  He has to have been broken, and he even started to wonder if he was going mad, because every time he closed his eyes, he heard the screams of those he killed.  Being rejected about the return of the Radiants, then being forced to kill hundreds of people, maybe thousands, has got to at least crack him.

 

I'll need to reread to be sure, but I think Szeth is already a Radiant, of sorts. The screams he hears, I think aren't his victims, but rather are the screams of a dead spren. The same thing that happens whenever any of the other Radiants pick up a Shardblade.

[natc]

I'll need to reread to be sure, but I think Szeth is already a Radiant, of sorts. The screams he hears, I think aren't his victims, but rather are the screams of a dead spren. The same thing that happens whenever any of the other Radiants pick up a Shardblade.

He hears the screaming every time he closes his eyes, with not a single dead blade in sight.

[Elsecaller3414]

Well, I thought it was a good point.  Are the screams in his head, supposedly from his victims, a form of nightmare? Like, is he so horrified at what he has done that it would be hard to sleep again?

 

If the Knights Radiant could make squires, then the Heralds are likely to have that same ability.  I think Kaladin has unwittingly made at least a majority of Bridge 4 into his squires, and that could be proven because Lopen started to regrow his arm.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Elsecaller3414

[Bururian]

If Nightblood uses breath, but he's on a planet where that investiture doesn't exist, but another system, but it all comes from the same(ish) source of power (The shards), you would think that the system would adapt so that Nightblade could continue to exist, right? I'm a little rusty on Warbreaker material, but if Nightblood and Vasher came over to Roshar and they did not have source in which to gain breaths (I'm pretty sure relinquishing breaths on Roshar doesn't work like it did on Nalthis, they would have to tap into the investiture of the local planet. It may or may not be an equal exchange rate either. It could take a whole lot/Not a lot of stormlight to wield Nightblood, and maybe Vasher doesn't have to give up his breath per day like he did back on his home world. 

Can someone clarify that for me? I know a lot of this, if not all is speculation, but if they can travel to another world, and Vasher alone can survive for 12 years, he's either doing it at a reduced rate of losing breath, if he's even using breath to survive. In turn, you would think that Nightblood is the same way since he very obviously still exists. I am unsure and unable to remember if he was passed to Szeth unsheathed or not, because that apparently makes a world of difference.

[dyring]

Im more wondering, will Szeth die if he runs out of stormlight while wielding nightblood the way someone from Naltis would die if running out of breaths.

 

That is, if the dying when out of breaths is for everyone, dont recall if it was just returned due to their divine breath being eaten.

 

either way, hes going to gooble stormlight damnation fast, wich could be.. inconvinient if you need it for surges too

[natc]

Im more wondering, will Szeth die if he runs out of stormlight while wielding nightblood the way someone from Naltis would die if running out of breaths.

That is, if the dying when out of breaths is for everyone, dont recall if it was just returned due to their divine breath being eaten.

either way, hes going to gooble stormlight damnation fast, wich could be.. inconvinient if you need it for surges too

We don't really know what abilities Nightblood causes when affected by funky Roshar realmatics (he being a sentient splinter and all), so he might not need as much . . .

[Lindel]

Vasher's running on Stormlight. That's at least part of the reason why he traveled to Roshar, because Stormlight is far more plentiful than Breaths, and easier to attain. It's unclear how he's able to take it in, but he's clearly using that as a substitute for Breath. Nightblood only needs Investiture when he's drawn, he doesn't need it to survive. If anyone on Roshar has attempted to wield Nigthblood, either they could take in Stormlight, or they're now dead. In any case, it wouldn't have any effect on Nightblood himself. From what we saw at the end of Warbreaker, he wouldn't even remember it afterward. 

[WindrunnerRadiant]

With Allomancy the metals act as a beacon for the power of Preservation, which then gets shaped by the metal burned. (The God Metals, like Atium and Lerasium are an exception here.) The fact that Allomancers usually don't hold the Investure themselves means unless they do some magic-system hacking they couldn't properly wield Nightblood. Internal metals such as pewter might given them a bit of a slight edge compared to a normal person but not a whole lot. (again only my guess)

 

I'm not sure this is entirely true. I think there has to be some amount of Investiture stored within each person on Scadrial, or at least in those who can use the Metallic Arts. After all, Feruchemists can use Nicrosil to store Investiture. Although, perhaps the Nicrosil would just be a reciprocal, and could then be used to power other abilities. Like the theory that Stormlight could be used to Stealpush. Something to think about. But certainly, a Feruchemist with Investiture stored in their Nicrosil could properly wield Nightblood.

[natc]

Well, obviously, their spiritwebs are probably made from investiture. We know that Scadrial humans in general contain more Preservation than Ruin too, so they're clearly invested as a species.

But then that's what souls are made of anyway, which Nightblood would eat no matter who you are, or so it seems. What Scadrial doesn't have is some loose form of investiture that can be easily attached to a person. . . well okay, you can burn mist I guess to fuel Nightblood, but that's probably a bad idea for Preservation/Harmony's sake.

[Elsecaller3414]

Apparently, Breath and Stormlight are almost the same thing, so it is really easy for both Vasher and Nightblood to live on Stormlight without having to kill people (especially Vasher) to get it.  It seems that the others are not as closely intertwined.

[TheSilverDragon]

I think that investiture probably fit into a categorization that is something similler to allomancy. Physical, mental, temporal, and enhancement.

Breath and Stormlight are probably in the same category, probably Physical since it has a physical element. Allomancy woudln't fit in to physical because the metal itself isn't the investiture, but a focal point.