Brandon Tweaking Words Of Radiance

[Cracknut]

• Get that sword! Syl sent to Kaladin, a mental shout. Grab it.
• “The assassin!”
• He has released the bond. He’s nothing without that sword! It must not be lost! Kaladin dove after the Blade, passing Szeth, who tumbled through the air like a rag doll, buffeted by winds toward the stormwall.

I don't like these ones at all... Kaladin slashes Szeths wrist instead of killing him because he feels pity and Brandon explains that change with Kaladin killing Szeth being somewhat wrong. But Syl has no problem with it at all? She knows that he released the bond and there's no way he would survive("He's nothing without that sword") but she has zero honors to give about that? But it would've been problematic for Kaladin if he killed him? Well he killed him AND there's totally no reason for this:

 

• “I didn’t kill him,” Kaladin said.

Yes you did bro, that's what happens when you let someone who can't manipulate gravity, fly, regenerate, etc fall to their deaths. And you should know you killed him because there is no more reason to believe his alive then there was in original version.

Sorry but I don't like this at all and hope I will be able to ignore it in future books... To make it clear though, my dislike for these changes has nothing to do with the fact that these changes were made after official release. Its not even what was changed, but how. Disappointed because for me Szeth's final scenes had some weak points but instead of fixing them these changes simply added some more weak points on Kaladin's side... I seriously hope this won't be brought up too many times in next books.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Cracknut

[Quiver]

This is Brandon's story; if he feels the need to change it, or thinks something needs tinkering to line up better with future events, then he's free to do so. He mentioned the Hobbit, but (unlike Tolkien), Brandon doesn't have a "convenient" place in Stormlight to reveal that the events we saw were wrong, so going back and re-correcting and republishing the book to amend that is the only way he could do it.

 

I guess there is a little bit of a concern that this could become a "thing" with future releases, but (as has been mentioned in this thread by someone who I cna't remember), this is the first time Brandon has made such a change in all of the books he's done. If it does become "a thing", and he starts changing endings of multiple books...

Well, at that point it becomes problematic. But not really before, though I do totally understand people's concerns about it. I'm on this site- obviously- so I don't feel any need to rush out and buy replacement copies or anything... but I can understand how it might bug people.

 

...On the other hand...

I'm not very fond of the changed ending. I've said elsewhere that sometimes Kaladin can really rub the wrong way as a character. His killing Szeth was something I was fine with, because... well, it was an action that made sense to me. I didn't expect him to be grappling in future books with the fact he killed a man; he was a soldier in Amaram's army. He knows what it is to fight and kill people.

 

Having his big on-panel killing retcon'd out though... hat bothers me. In some ways, I find Kaladin a bit too... perfect. Which I realize is a strange comment to make, considering he's bad-tempered and somewhat racist. I need to get around to making a Kaladin post/commentary, but my point is that...

As with Amaram being revealed to, in fact. be evil, Kaladin now hasn't killed a main character. It's still early in the Archive, true, but I want Kaladin to be wrong at some point. As is, I kind of get the feeling that Brandon wants everything he does to be the "right" decision, which I find kind of annoying. 

 

EDIT For the record, I'm not commenting, either way, or whether or not Kaladin killing Szeth was good, evil, in keeping with the windruners, or whatever. But, given his background as a soldier, we can assume he's killed people who were trying to kill his people- we even saw that with Heleran. The idea that he would kill Szeth (because Szeth is a threat to "his" people, like Dalinar) isn't particularly far-fetched to me.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Quiver

[Edgedancer]

I don't like these ones at all... Kaladin slashes Szeths wrist instead of killing him because he feels pity and Brandon explains that change with Kaladin killing Szeth being somewhat wrong. But Syl has no problem with it at all? She knows that he released the bond and there's no way he would survive("He's nothing without that sword") but she has zero honors to give about that? But it would've been problematic for Kaladin if he killed him? Well he killed him AND there's totally no reason for this:

 

Yes you did bro, that's what happens when you let someone who can't manipulate gravity, fly, regenerate, etc fall to their deaths. And you should know you killed him because there is no more reason to believe his alive then there was in original version.

Sorry but I don't like this at all and hope I will be able to ignore it in future books... To make it clear though, my dislike for these changes has nothing to do with the fact that these changes were made after official release. Its not even what was changed, but how. Disappointed because for me Szeth's final scenes had some weak points but instead of fixing them these changes simply added some more weak points on Kaladin's side... I seriously hope this won't be brought up too many times in next books.

You bring up a good point. Once you look at it that way the scene changed from Kaladin killing a threat to the people he's sworn to protect in combat, (which while not perfect is understandable, he killed Parshendi as well afterall) to sparing said killer out of pity (which is arguably better) and then deciding that securing a powerful weapon is more important than actually protecting said guy he just decided doesn't deserve death. (Which is very bad and somewhat reeks of the plot demands he meets up with Nale and the blade ends with Kal and co.)

 

Maybe I'm being too harsh on it because I have a natural aversion against Retcons but that's a legitimate problem as far as I can see it right now.

[masaru]

Question for anyone with ebook version - have you seen any updates ever? I've never seen ebook updates for all of Brandon's books I have as ebooks but I've seen like 3 for "Rising Steam". I dunno if it's because I have the UK ebook version and we don't get updates in this case or that there's just never been any.

 

I get updates all the time on BS works in iBooks. Words of Radiance has had a few. One major example is when Emperor's Soul was updated to include the alternate prologue scene. Unless the team points them out, i tend to ignore the updates, though. Will be sure to look for this WOR update, though!

 

Regarding... this idea that somehow BS is rewriting history: they are his characters and if he never was quite happy with the action of one of them, I'm fine with him changing it. I'm not positive it majorly changes how I view Kaladin at all. The Cosmere implications seem like they will be dealt with in another book. I don't particularly see this as a "Han Shot First" situation. I think it's because we know BS was under a lot of pressure to get WOR out and he may have rushed something he wasn't happy with because he couldn't afford any more time. Lucas changed his mind decades later and never implied he was unhappy with his originals until 20 years later.

Edited March 7, 2015 by masaru

[Cracknut]

You bring up a good point. Once you look at it that way the scene changed from Kaladin killing a threat to the people he's sworn to protect in combat, (which while not perfect is understandable, he killed Parshendi as well afterall) to sparing said killer out of pity (which is arguably better) and then deciding that securing a powerful weapon is more important than actually protecting said guy he just decided doesn't deserve death. (Which is very bad and somewhat reeks of the plot demands he meets up with Nale and the blade ends with Kal and co.)

 

Maybe I'm being too harsh on it because I have a natural aversion against Retcons but that's a legitimate problem as far as I can see it right now.

Exactly! I really hope it won't be considered as something that makes Kaladin a better person. But it looks like it will and in that case please just don't rub it in.

[Honor's Radiance]

Replacement:

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late. But surely you know this. Two of the Blades held by your people allow Regrowth. I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.”

 

Well, there goes my theory. So, general healing of oneself must be a unique property of the Nahel bond, while Regrowth, as a Surge, could be used by any bearer of those two Honorblades.

 

Having his big on-panel killing retcon'd out though... hat bothers me. In some ways, I find Kaladin a bit too... perfect. Which I realize is a strange comment to make, considering he's bad-tempered and somewhat racist. I need to get around to making a Kaladin post/commentary, but my point is that...

As with Amaram being revealed to, in fact. be evil, Kaladin now hasn't killed a main character. It's still early in the Archive, true, but I want Kaladin to be wrong at some point. As is, I kind of get the feeling that Brandon wants everything he does to be the "right" decision, which I find kind of annoying. 

 

Arguably, Kaladin's already made some wrong decisions--letting Moash and co. try to take out Elhokar was wrong enough that his bond with Syl was broken. I'd be willing to bet this isn't going to be treated as "the better option," just that Kaladin might second-guess his decisions in the short time since he renewed his bond with Syl. Everyone, including Kaladin, knows that Szeth needed to be killed, and I don't think Kaladin is so naive as to think this absolves him of responsibility; he may want to believe that, and may convince himself of that, but I don't think he's actually that naive. In the moment, maybe he was hoping to leave Szeth to the Stormfather's judgement, assuming he would probably die but could be saved. One of the edits (talking with the bridgemen afterward) reveals Kaladin suspects Szeth could have survived.

[Quiver]

Arguably, Kaladin's already made some wrong decisions--letting Moash and co. try to take out Elhokar was wrong enough that his bond with Syl was broken. I'd be willing to bet this isn't going to be treated as "the better option," just that Kaladin might second-guess his decisions in the short time since he renewed his bond with Syl. Everyone, including Kaladin, knows that Szeth needed to be killed, and I don't think Kaladin is so naive as to think this absolves him of responsibility; he may want to believe that, and may convince himself of that, but I don't think he's actually that naive. In the moment, maybe he was hoping to leave Szeth to the Stormfather's judgement, assuming he would probably die but could be saved. One of the edits (talking with the bridgemen afterward) reveals Kaladin suspects Szeth could have survived.

 

Except that then Kaladin changed his mind on that, and defended Elhokar from Moash, at great personal cost, and was rewarded for it. This might just be a personal hang-up of mine, and I'm being too hard on the character... but so far, Kaladin has always, in the end, done the "right" thing, where right means "by the morality and logic of the book". Added to some of his feats, like pulling off the Last Clap in a combat situation against someone who is at least a competent fighter...

As I say, I like some things about Kaladin, but there is a part of me that worries he's a bit too good at stuff. But this isn't really the thread for that discussion, so... sorry for the derailing!

[vineyarddawg]

I'm just now seeing these changes (and thanks Wiery for the specifics!)... and I have to say I'm a big, big fan of Kaladin's change.  Kaladin killing Szeth just didn't "feel" right to me, much like it irked Brandon, apparently.  Kaladin has moved past his vengeance phase, and as a windrunner, it suits him.  Even though, as Brandon says, it's a huge deal to make such a change in an already-published story, I applaud him for it.

 

In my mind, Kaladin killing Szeth is kind of what it would be like if, in the "Song of Ice and Fire" world, Eddard Stark had claimed the Iron Throne after Aerys II Targaryen had been killed, or if Robb Stark had killed Jaime Lannister when he had him in the dungeon at Riverrun. It would directly conflict with the character's arc up until that point, and makes a particularly notable incongruence that would eventually need to be dealt with in some way later down the line.

 

I love that Kaladin doesn't kill Szeth now.  It 100% fits with the story, I think.

[Edgedancer]

I love that Kaladin doesn't kill Szeth now.  It 100% fits with the story, I think.

He still lets him die in favour of getting the Honourblade without attempting to help him though (at least from what it seems going by what Wiery posted), so that's arguably worse.

[vandar]

I find myself really struggling with this. It's not so much WHAT has changed, more that it has changed at all. It's really upsetting to me because I'm suddenly looking at my copy of Words of Radiance differently. This isn't a simple copy edit, the actual content is different. In my version Kaladin kills Szeth, which is now canonically wrong. If I want a 'correct' version, then I will need to purchase another hardback, which isn't exactly cheap.

 

It's also upsetting to me because I no longer have any faith in future releases. If Words of Radiance needed to be changed - if the initial version of Words of Radiance was really so wrong that it needed to be fixed - then what about the initial versions of future releases? Can I safely buy book 3, or should I wait for a year to see if a 'correct' version comes out? I've never even had to ask myself that question regarding books.

 

 I'm aware how harsh 'wrong' sounds for what is ultimately a few changed sentences, but I really can't think of a better way to put it. Clearly Sanderson felt those sentences were important enough to be changed, else he wouldn't have changed them. If the sentences are that important to him, then they are important to me. However my copy of Words of Radiance does not have those important changes. My copy of Words of Radiance is wrong.

 

 I'm really struggling with this, to the point where I made this account because I need to discuss it with other people. For me it's enough to question if I should continue purchasing these books. I love this series. I don't want to quit reading it. Yet if what Sanderson releases to us is so wrong that he feels the need to change it, I find it hard to faithfully purchase his novels.

 

 I apologize for such a negative post, but I needed to get this off my chest.

I am exactly in the same situation, I finally decided to join the board mainly to post about theese news from Brandon and I think that this matter as a whole is a real mess and and to be specific I don't like it at all. I am a "little" mad  for this mess 'cause I Bought english hardcover of WoR and WoK 15 days ago to start my "perfect" collection with all the colour pages, because I am Italian so I usually take the translated versions that don't have colourmaps , make a mess of the art and with traduction and adaptation you usally loose many things. Now having said this I am not so concerned about future books, because like someone already said this is the first time happening, and it doesn't mean that every time will be like this. Also It's not a really immense thing and so we could let Brandon slip away with it. After all Brandon is the artist, He knows what It's going to happen next and if He thinks that this way is BETTER we can assume He knows what He's doing.

After all I am Okay with what He is doing with Elantris, I think that after 10 years and so many things happened, with the "Cosmere Project" grown up so much, with a sequel arriving in the next few years and with His ability as a writer increased so much it's a good thing go back to Elantris and fixing thing. At this point even the changing of a major plot point would'nt be so much of a problem, it 's what actually Happened with the Hobbit: while doing the sequel (TLoTR) and increasing so much the scope Tolkien felt the need to go back and change what happened between Bilbo and Gollum.

 

But that happened 13 years after the first release while doing a sequel that changed everything about the scope and the ambition of Tolkien work. It doesn't fit at all WoR in my opinion for two major reasons:

 

-The first is the time gap between the first and the second version (13 years for the hobbit, slight more than a year for Wor).

 

-The second is that Tolkien didn't plan for  the Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion when writing The Hobbit, Brandon instead should already be very well aware of the consequences that certain actions would have further in the next books.

 

 

And This is my general opinion about this mess it could be very well be taken as a rant and pearaphs it is, but even if I know deep down that it's not this big of a problem it let me a little upset.

 

 

Now what I think would need a proper consideration is the way that changes are implemented:

 

 

Hardcover: PAGE 1041

Revised word document: PAGE 1478 / 1479

Current:

• Szeth did not parry. He just closed his eyes.
• Kaladin drove his Blade into the assassin’s chest right below the neck, severing the spine. Smoke burned out from beneath his eyelids, and his Blade slipped from his fingers. It did not vanish.
• Get that! Syl sent him, a mental shout. Grab it, Kaladin. Don’t lose it!
• Kaladin dove after the Blade, dropping Szeth’s corpse, letting it fall backward into the stormwall. It vanished among the wind, the rain, and the lightning, trailing faint wisps of Stormlight.
• Kaladin grabbed the Blade just before the storm consumed it. Then he Lashed himself back upward, passing along the stormwall, the windspren he’d attracted spiraling about him and laughing with pure joy. As he crested the top of the storm, they burst around him and zipped away, moving off to dance in front of the still-advancing storm.

Replacement:

• Szeth did not parry. He just closed his eyes to accept the attack.
• In that instant, for reasons he could not have articulated—pity, perhaps?— Kaladin diverted his blow, driving the Blade through Szeth’s wrist. The skin greyed. Flashing with reflected lightning, the sword tumbled from the assassin’s fingers, then dulled as it plummeted.
• The glow fled the assassin’s form. All his Stormlight vanished in a puff, all Lashings banished.
• Szeth started to fall.
• Get that sword! Syl sent to Kaladin, a mental shout. Grab it.
• “The assassin!”
• He has released the bond. He’s nothing without that sword! It must not be lost! Kaladin dove after the Blade, passing Szeth, who tumbled through the air like a rag doll, buffeted by winds toward the stormwall.
• Kaladin furiously Lashed himself downward, snatching the Blade just before the storm consumed it. Nearby, the assassin dropped past him into the storm and was swallowed up, leaving Kaladin with the haunting image of Szeth’s limp silhouette being driven into a plateau below with all the tempest’s force.
• Raising the assassin’s Blade, Kaladin Lashed himself back upward, passing along the stormwall, the windspren he’d attracted spiraling about him and laughing with pure joy. As he crested the top of the storm, they burst around him and zipped away, moving off to dance in front of the stilladvancing storm.

Hardcover: PAGE 1042

Revised word document: PAGE 1479

Current:

• “That was very nicely done,” she said. “Perhaps I’ll keep you around this time.”

Replacement:

• “I didn’t kill him,” Kaladin said.
• “Did you want to?”
• “No,” Kaladin said, surprised that it was the truth. “But I should have anyway.”
• “You have his Blade,” she replied. “The Stormfather likely took him. And if not … well, he is no longer the weapon he once was. I must say, that was very nicely done. Perhaps I’ll keep you around this time.”

Hardcover: PAGE 1043

Revised word document: PAGE 1481 / 1482

Current:

• “This is going to happen again?” Kaladin said. “That other storm is still out there?”
• “Yes,” Syl said, sitting on his shoulder. “A new storm. It’s not of us, but of him.”
• “Will it be this bad every time it passes?” Kaladin asked, surveying the wreckage. Of the plateaus he could see, only the one had been destroyed completely. But if the storm could do that to pure rock, what would it do to a city? Particularly since it blew the wrong way.

Replacement:

• He found no sign of Szeth’s corpse. That could mean the man had survived somehow, or it could just mean the storm had buried the body in rubble or blown it away, leaving it in some forgotten chasm to rot until the bones were finally picked over by an unfortunate salvage crew.
• For now, the fact that Szeth had not summoned his Blade back to him was enough. Either he was dead, or—as Syl had said—the strange weapon was no longer bound to him. Kaladin didn’t know how to tell. This Shardblade had no gemstone at the pommel to indicate.
• Kaladin stopped at a high point of the plateau and surveyed the wreckage. Then he glanced toward Syl, who sat on his shoulder. “This is going to happen again?” he said. “That other storm is still out there?”
• “Yes,” Syl said, “A new storm. It’s not of us, but of him.”
• “Will it be this bad every time it passes?” Of the plateaus he could see, only the one had been destroyed completely. But if the storm could do that to pure rock, what would it do to a city? Particularly since it blew the wrong way.

 

 

IF this is the final version,I think there is something really off with all of this, most of all with Szeth death scene. Both 1st and 2nd edition feels off. And in my opinion this is beacuse Brandon struggled too much to get those right. It actually feels like he rewrited it too many times and grew frustated about it, and also you can tell it's a very important scene for him 'cause He used so many words to be sure to have explained the situation to the reader. This is infodump. He warned a lot about this both in "out of excuses " audio lessons and in various videos of conferences and lessons He did in the years.This scene IT' S THE PEAK of the book, the realisation of the promise of a confrontation between these two characters. It want to be flashy and fast but having narrator voice interrupting and saing things like " HE expected a parry. The move was intended to draw Szeth out of his attack pattern."  or like "In that instant, for reasons he could not have articulated—pity, perhaps?— Kaladin diverted his blow"  feel really off beacause disrupt the flow of action in the mind of the reader. I don't think that to give justification during the fight in this way it's a good idea.

And even if I think it's good that kaladin doesn't go for the killing and don't consciously kill because of his characterization, to have Szeth killed by the storm take something from him. By having the confrontation ending this way all the fight and all the book loose something. The problem is the PROMISE. A major part of the book and of the story this far is about this confrontation; to have Kaladin spare him and he immediatly be killed by the highstorm  feels really off, it dampen the mood and the epicness, and it is even more out of character for kaladin not saving him at this point, seen that he will protect even those who he hate, and that Szeth lost in the storm without the bond is lost like a child. The first version feels like Kaladin is too committed to stop when he realizes that Szeth want to die, and I think is actually a good thing, It gives a touch of realism and tragedy to all the scene. When in an actual fight It's difficult to stop at the last moment and even if you succeed to stop something could go wrong, after all is Szeth that want to die. but having him dying by the storm feel really off.

 

That all said the major problem with the other changings is a general unnecessary infodump maybe done to be sure the reader would actually understand what happened, and It's probably caused by the major changing to Szeth scene. 

 

All of this said I am still a very big Sanderson Fan and I hope that between here and the release of the paperback things will be solved for the best and that is what is better for , the book, the series , the cosmere , the author and the readers. I know It's a difficult task but Brandon set the bar high and so we expect a lot.        

 

Please Excuse me for this extralong 2nd post and for errors and bad english, I hope none will take offense from it I only expressed what I felt. 

[dayman]

If he wants to change Elantris that's fine but I don't see the need for what he did with WoR. WoR just came out.

 

Love Brandon but don't understand this one. Not a big deal but still...could have done without this. If he was to change the end he should have gone ahead and scaled back the dragon-ball-esque style of the fight also. 

[Argent]

If he wants to change Elantris that's fine but I don't see the need for what he did with WoR. WoR just came out.

 

Love Brandon but don't understand this one. Not a big deal but still...could have done without this. If he was to change the end he should have gone ahead and scaled back the dragon-ball-esque style of the fight also. 

 

I am sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense in this context. Brandon didn't change the fight because he simply wanted to make a change to it - the "dragonball-esque" style of it is not something he has a problem with; the problem was with a very specific action Kaladin took during said fight - the killing of Szeth. Killing the Assassin in White, while practical and prudent in an objective kind of way, is not something that fits Kaladin's character. His entire character arc for these past two books has been about protecting others without reservation. For him to kill Szeth, he would have to back off from that in a major way. So no, the change makes perfect sense in the narrative of the story. The question is whether it makes (enough) sense in the world of publishing, and in this I trust Brandon more than I trust myself.

 

Also, that "WoR just came out" argument you have - you must be able to see that it's better to make this change now rather than three books down the line, when Kaladin is already written in as somebody who bends around his beliefs when it's convenient.

 

This whole thing might be a little confusing for book #3, but in the long run, it will make for a better Kaladin. And maybe better Szeth.

[Cracknut]

I am sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense in this context. Brandon didn't change the fight because he simply wanted to make a change to it - the "dragonball-esque" style of it is not something he has a problem with; the problem was with a very specific action Kaladin took during said fight - the killing of Szeth. Killing the Assassin in White, while practical and prudent in an objective kind of way, is not something that fits Kaladin's character. His entire character arc for these past two books has been about protecting others without reservation. For him to kill Szeth, he would have to back off from that in a major way. So no, the change makes perfect sense in the narrative of the story. The question is whether it makes (enough) sense in the world of publishing, and in this I trust Brandon more than I trust myself.

 

Also, that "WoR just came out" argument you have - you must be able to see that it's better to make this change now rather than three books down the line, when Kaladin is already written in as somebody who bends around his beliefs when it's convenient.

 

This whole thing might be a little confusing for book #3, but in the long run, it will make for a better Kaladin. And maybe better Szeth.

But it doesn't. He still killed Szeth, but this time he did it for Honorblade. More I think about it worse it gets I can't stop thinking about this why can't I get over this little piece of writing whyyyyyy ;((( :D

[dayman]

I am sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense in this context. Brandon didn't change the fight because he simply wanted to make a change to it - the "dragonball-esque" style of it is not something he has a problem with; the problem was with a very specific action Kaladin took during said fight - the killing of Szeth. Killing the Assassin in White, while practical and prudent in an objective kind of way, is not something that fits Kaladin's character. His entire character arc for these past two books has been about protecting others without reservation. For him to kill Szeth, he would have to back off from that in a major way. So no, the change makes perfect sense in the narrative of the story. The question is whether it makes (enough) sense in the world of publishing, and in this I trust Brandon more than I trust myself.

 

Also, that "WoR just came out" argument you have - you must be able to see that it's better to make this change now rather than three books down the line, when Kaladin is already written in as somebody who bends around his beliefs when it's convenient.

 

This whole thing might be a little confusing for book #3, but in the long run, it will make for a better Kaladin. And maybe better Szeth.

 

Hey, I'm not just blasting Sanderson over this for no reason. Not even really blasting him, I love Sanderson. I'm just stating my opinion...I don't get it. Kaladin can kill Szeth to protect others, that really doesn't seem all that out of character and is perfectly fine. I would prefer that Kaladin to one that is ... in my opinion ... too far out there with his moral code. In the scheme of things...he basically just wrote that scene. Would probably have been better off leaving it.

 

That said, I'm sure if he wanted to make the change he knew it would benefit what he was trying to do in the long run. So whatever. Personally, I'll take the Kaladin that is willing to do the job. 

Edited March 7, 2015 by dayman

[hoser]

This ending could be about Windrunners being all about protecting.  As such, it's Brandon's story, so fine.  For me personally, it's better because I care about the version in my head and I just got some bonus story. 

 

Depending on where this goes, this could be really good, IMO. There may be an echo here of the other inexplicable decision Kaladin made to not take the Shards in tWoK.  If I am going to experience this moody, depressive character for however many more books, I would love to have him also able to trust his unconscious and make unpredictable choices at times.  If that were to develop as a piece of his character, that would really help me enjoy reading his sections and delight in his character development.

 

I do have a complaint about this ending, though.  It really makes Syl less believable to me.  I understand that she is a vehicle for Brandon to give information, and there is a lot of information that we are not supposed to have yet.  She is generally pretty ignorant about things that she would have known before she crossed over, but here she suddenly knows what is going on and what is important.  Her behavior in the revised scene seemed inconsistent and obviously plot-driven. 

Edited March 7, 2015 by hoser

[Flywinged]

I feel like a lot of people are missing the point of the change. Yes Kaladin still killed Szeth because of what he chose to do, but as he was making the decision, he was deciding not to kill him. He purposely deflected his blow to hit Szeth's hand instead of in his chest, effectively not killing him.

 

In the end Szeth willingly released his bond with the sword (which basically means Szeth killed himself, which he had been willing to do at that point, rather than Kaladin). Or at least that is what I'm getting from the change. Kaladin purposely missing gave Szeth the time he needed to release himself from the bond and kill himself by falling into the storm with no way to stop himself. Then Syl tells Kaladin to get the unbonded blade merely because of its importance and because Szeth has already killed himself by debonding it.

 

So basically what I got out of the change was:

• Kaladin chose not to kill Szeth
• This let Szeth choose to kill himself
• Syl then wanted Kaladin to make sure the honorblade was lost becuase Szeth could not rebond it in mid air, especially without having his powers anymore

 

In my view, this change is very good. It seems more appropriate for both characters.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Flywinged

[Edgedancer]

I feel like a lot of people are missing the point of the change. Yes Kaladin still killed Szeth by virtue of what he'd done, but as he was making the decision, he was deciding not to kill him. He purposely deflected his blow to hit Szeth's hand instead of in his chest, effectively not killing him.

 

In the end Szeth willingly released his bond with the sword (which basically means Szeth killed himself, which he had been willing to do at that point, rather than Kaladin). Or at least that is what I'm getting from the change. Kaladin purposely missing gave Szeth the time he needed to release himself from the bond and kill himself by falling into the storm with no way to stop himself. Then Syl tells Kaladin to get the unbonded blade merely because of its importance and because Szeth has already killed himself by debonding it.

 

In my view, this change is very good. It seems more appropriate for both characters.

So why is killing him by virtue of not protecting him better? He still choose not to attempt to save Szeth. Maybe an attempt would have been pointless but we don't know and even then that isn't a moral excuse for not trying at all. I can think of two answers but can also counter both.

1. He didn't do it himself. Counter: He neither would have killed Dalinar at the end of WoK or Elhokar in WoR himself, but he still saved them, because Kaladin is not about not killing, he is about protecting, which he didn't do here.

2. Szeth wanted to die. Counter: Maybe I remember the scene wrong but didn't Kaladin just call him a coward that's unwilling to face the consequences of his action, why let him take the easy way out now?

Edited March 7, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Flywinged]

 

So why is killing him by virtue of not protecting him better? He still choose not to attempt to save Szeth. Maybe an attemp would have been pointless but that isn't a moral excuse for not even trying. I can think of two answers but can also counter both.

1. He didn't do it himself. Counter: He neither would have killed Dalinar at the end of WoK or Elhokar in WoR himself, but he still saved them, because Kaladin is not about not killing, he is about protecting, which he didn't do here.

2. Szeth wanted to die. Counter: Maybe I remember the scene wrong but didn't Kaladin just call him a coward that's unwilling to face the consequences of his action, why let him take the easy way out now?

 

It's "better" because Sanderson thought it was important enough to change. To me, the story is almost identical. Kaladin really didn't want to kill him, and his intent was to not kill him. And as we have seen with Sanderson, intent is very important. (I'm thinking particularly of awakening in Warbreaker).

 

I'm just saying I put my trust in Sanderson. I remember many threads discussing whether or not they thought it was okay that Kaladin killed Szeth shortly after WoR came out. And now this change has come, I'm sure there will be several more discussing Kaladin's decision this time. In the end, I believe will all be satisfied with his decision.

 

I'm not very good at stating my point... I now realize as I reread what I just wrote. Basically, I think Sanderson knows what he is doing, and the new changes fit all the characters involved personalities. I don't think he's really changed anything, he's corrected it. The whole scene just seemed a little hard to believe to me. This new version seems more appropriate, in my opinion.

[Edgedancer]

It's "better" because Sanderson thought it was important enough to change. To me, the story is almost identical. Kaladin really didn't want to kill him, and his intent was to not kill him. And as we have seen with Sanderson, intent is very important. (I'm thinking particularly of awakening in Warbreaker).

 

I'm just saying I put my trust in Sanderson. I remember many threads discussing whether or not they thought it was okay that Kaladin killed Szeth shortly after WoR came out. And now this change has come, I'm sure there will be several more discussing Kaladin's decision this time. In the end, I believe will all be satisfied with his decision.

 

I'm not very good at stating my point... I now realize as I reread what I just wrote. Basically, I think Sanderson knows what he is doing, and the new changes fit all the characters involved personalities. I don't think he's really changed anything, he's corrected it. The whole scene just seemed a little hard to believe to me. This new version seems more appropriate, in my opinion.

You know, if it was only Kaladin not killing Szeth, I would agree that it is an improvment.

 

However, what happens immediately afterwards completely invalidates said intent. Sanderson essentially buys Kaladins clean hands (which is somewhat pointless, because he already killed to protect others) with the price of what should be Kaladin's nature, protecing those that cannot protect themselves.

Let me try it like this, assuming you didn't know about this retcon would the following sentence seem in-charachter for Kaladin to you?

"Kaladin lets a man drop to his death, so he can get his hands on a powerful weapon."

 

Now, as I said before, I could be biased here, because I really dislike the fact that it is a retcon and not even notice it but I'm trying to be objective and it still seems like Brandon wants to eat his cake and keep it too.

[Zea mays]

 

I do have a complaint about this ending, though.  It really makes Syl less believable to me.  I understand that she is a vehicle for Brandon to give information, and there is a lot of information that we are not supposed to have yet.  She is generally pretty ignorant about things that she would have known before she crossed over, but here she suddenly knows what is going on and what is important.  Her behavior in the revised scene seemed inconsistent and obviously plot-driven. 

I'm not sure I understand your quibble. Syl already knew exactly what the Honorblade was in the first edition.

 

This will probably have a bigger impact in later books, on the interactions between Szeth and Kaladin in the future. I mean, they will obviously meet again, I'm sure no reader doubts that. Now Kal (and by extension, Dalinar, et al) has an inkling that Szeth may not be completely dead and would be less surprised to see him up and  about (Vasher, at least, should be genre savvy enough to anticipate this).

 

Should Kal have tried to save Szeth instead of the Blade? I can sort of see a case made either way. Ultimately he was not trying to kill the assassin in white, he was trying to put a stop to him. That necessitated grabbing hold of the Weapon of Doom^tm  lest some other passing madmen/ voidbringer/ unmade/ worldhopper/ umpteenth conspiracy member/ something else grab it and run with it.

[Cracknut]

Kaladin has killed before to protect. He killed Parshendi and he killed humans. Didn't he kill some of the assassins to save Elhokar? Did he hesitate then? No. Killing Szeth maybe wasn't good but it had to be done just like other times. This time wasn't any different. Szeth alive = Dalinar in danger and his safety is essential for worlds safety unlike Elhokars. Did he hate those assassins? Nope. So when our heroes are killing some unnamed assassins with no reason except to protect someone else it totally normal but if its an exceptional assassin and a main character at that... now there has to be hate and pity and now he has to protect even those he hates! Oh and how he protects!

Alright lets forget why he shouldn't have gone all good on Szeth. Lets say he had a very good reason to do so.
Szeth releases the bond.
Syl informs Kaladin about it and adds that "Szeth is nothing without it".
So, basically Szeth isn't dangerous anymore. You don't even have to hide Honorblade from him as he released it himself. What does Kaladin do now? Does he saves someone who obviously forfeited and doesn't presents any danger to anyone Kaladins trying to protect? Nope, he doesn't. He goes after Honorblade. How is he clean after this? It's not like Szeth died from fall because he got unlucky. No normal human would survive that fall and Kaladin at this point knew that Szeth was pretty much normal human. He recovered Honorblade, something that would survive that fall and then when it was convenient for him, he went to look for Szeth(I mean his body). Why not save Szeth, get him to the land then search for Honorblade. It's something Amaram would do, not Kaladin. And the best part? Syl was one who put Kaladin on that path.

The fact that Szeth is actually alive doesn't matters at all. He died. Kaladin let him fall to death. Then he was resurrected by someone who shouldn't have been there. Someone who Kaladin has no idea is still alive or even existed at all. With a power that Kaladin doesn't even knows exists. So, no, I'm not buying that this new version of Kaladin is better than old. So far he's much worse. He traded Szeth's life for an Honorblade. And he did it after acknowledging Szeth as someone who needs protection. And then he went and made himself believe he saved Szeth. Most irritating thing about all of this? Kaladin has no reason to believe Szeth is alive. I mean, dude actually died from that fall what else is here to be said? And I can already imagine Szeth and Kaladin meeting at some point in next books and Szeth being grateful about it or something... 

Edited March 7, 2015 by Cracknut

[hoser]

I'm not sure I can articulate this effectively, but I'll try.  For me, it's about Syl's role seeming to change for plot reasons. 

I'm not sure I understand your quibble. Syl already knew exactly what the Honorblade was in the first edition.

 

This will probably have a bigger impact in later books, on the interactions between Szeth and Kaladin in the future. I mean, they will obviously meet again, I'm sure no reader doubts that. Now Kal (and by extension, Dalinar, et al) has an inkling that Szeth may not be completely dead and would be less surprised to see him up and  about (Vasher, at least, should be genre savvy enough to anticipate this).

 

Should Kal have tried to save Szeth instead of the Blade? I can sort of see a case made either way. Ultimately he was not trying to kill the assassin in white, he was trying to put a stop to him. That necessitated grabbing hold of the Weapon of Doom^tm  lest some other passing madmen/ voidbringer/ unmade/ worldhopper/ umpteenth conspiracy member/ something else grab it and run with it.

What is the value of the Honorblade?  So far it is less than an honorspren.  In fact, it has essentially been serving Odium.  Out of the hands of a Herald, it may be just bad. 

Would the blade have been lost?  Szeth believed the Shamans could retrieve it.  I think a significant amount of investiture like that would be detectable.   Even if Kaladin can't currently detect it, I imagine that the Stormfather's Shard-o-vision or a Herald could find it. 

A Szeth that is no longer a threat may need protection.  Failing that, he could be an amazing source of information.  There are significant reasons to grab Szeth.  It is bad enough that Kaladin never asks Szeth any useful questions in their conversations.  Forever giving up the possibility of gaining information is a significant cost to letting Szeth fall. 

Syl has been a source of information and essentially Kaladin's conscience, but she has not been directing him in the heat of the moment.  She has been a supportive presence, but not directive as I recall.  The correct decision is not clear.  Now, all of a sudden, she is deciding what needs to be done instantaneously and directing him as to how to choose.  It is a different role that seems to be determined by the plot's need to keep the protagonists from communicating more than retrieving some hardware that can (IMO) be retrieved at any time. 

[Zea mays]

Thank you for explaining, Hoser, I think I see your point better now. No matter how much she forgets or remembers, it is unusual for Syl to flat out tell Kaladin what to do. As for Kal not asking Szeth the obvious questions - oh, I agree so much.

 

The honorblade is still an open question for me though. We don't know enough about it yet. It seems possible that had Kal let it fall, Nalan would  have grabbed it, and used it to  - whatever it is he is actually doing. Maybe someone even worse was lurking around.

 

What is the Honorblade? Is it a part of honor himself? Is it a key to some of his power?  Syl seems to imply that losing it would be very dangerous, possibly it is vital to saving the world somehow.

[Cracknut]

The honorblade is still an open question for me though. We don't know enough about it yet. It seems possible that had Kal let it fall, Nalan would  have grabbed it, and used it to  - whatever it is he is actually doing. Maybe someone even worse was lurking around.

Not something Kal was aware of or had any reason to suspect. They were in the middle of nowhere with two highstorms doing their work. I'm sure it would've ended up in Nalan's hands if Kal let it fall. But even knowing that, *right* decision(for Knight Radiants) would still be saving Szeth in my opinion.

 

I'm not sure I can articulate this effectively, but I'll try.  For me, it's about Syl's role seeming to change for plot reasons. 

What is the value of the Honorblade?  So far it is less than an honorspren.  In fact, it has essentially been serving Odium.  Out of the hands of a Herald, it may be just bad. 

Would the blade have been lost?  Szeth believed the Shamans could retrieve it.  I think a significant amount of investiture like that would be detectable.   Even if Kaladin can't currently detect it, I imagine that the Stormfather's Shard-o-vision or a Herald could find it. 

A Szeth that is no longer a threat may need protection.  Failing that, he could be an amazing source of information.  There are significant reasons to grab Szeth.  It is bad enough that Kaladin never asks Szeth any useful questions in their conversations.  Forever giving up the possibility of gaining information is a significant cost to letting Szeth fall. 

Syl has been a source of information and essentially Kaladin's conscience, but she has not been directing him in the heat of the moment.  She has been a supportive presence, but not directive as I recall.  The correct decision is not clear.  Now, all of a sudden, she is deciding what needs to be done instantaneously and directing him as to how to choose.  It is a different role that seems to be determined by the plot's need to keep the protagonists from communicating more than retrieving some hardware that can (IMO) be retrieved at any time. 

Yeah, you're right... She feels really off too... I'm really confused at this point this doesn't looks like BS at all maybe it's some kind of a foreshadowing or something and we're just wasting our time complaining about something that will make perfect sense in next book :|

[Flywinged]

I feel inclined to think that there is so much more going on here than what we first see. Also, Syl is the one that tells him to go get the blade, rather than saving Szeth. Saying "it cannot be lost". The honorblades may have something to do with ending the Desolation? We don't really know.

 

And this is more of a moral debate, but do you save a man committing suicide, or listen to the spren who's yet to guide you wrongly? I may be biased in saying I'd listen to the spren, but it is a question with an answer that depends on who you ask. Kaladin would just answer the question by listening to his spren. Also, when he exclaims "The Assassin", it almost seems like he is thinking of going to save Szeth, yet Syl directs him to the sword instead.

 

 

Let me try it like this, assuming you didn't know about this retcon would the following sentence seem in-charachter for Kaladin to you?

"Kaladin lets a man drop to his death, so he can get his hands on a powerful weapon."

So to answer your question, no, that isn't anywhere near Kaladin as a character. Luckily for us, that is not what has happened. Also, the statement is more like (at least the way I interpret the new scene), "Kaladin lets a man (who has wreaked havoc on the entire eastern world) drop to his death after a long fight with him, and follows Syl's instruction to save the falling honorblade instead of the man". And I could most definitely see Kaladin doing that.

 

We have no idea what Syl does or does not know. Kaladin does what Syl says, so it is difficult to judge his choice considering he put his faith in Syl and made the choice she made.