Why The Knights Betrayed Their Spren

[Zas678]

I have something, but I want to flesh it out a little more. Find some quotes, stuff like that. 

 

But I think that the only logical cause of such a massive and complete rejection of being a Knight Radiant has to come from a source that they all have in common. Why would a whole army throw up arms? If they feel they've been betrayed. 

[dvoraen]

I have something, but I want to flesh it out a little more. Find some quotes, stuff like that. 

 

But I think that the only logical cause of such a massive and complete rejection of being a Knight Radiant has to come from a source that they all have in common. Why would a whole army throw up arms? If they feel they've been betrayed. 

This I feel is partly corroborated in the epigraph for Chapter 41, and also why I claim the Radiant leadership was gone and/or murdered.  Remove the leaders, with few people able to replace them -- I highly doubt Bondsmiths were common by general virtue of there being so few people who have the capability to be one -- and you have all the makings of degradation of what was once a cohesive whole.  Without their "focus", they fell prey to simple human foible, until finally it built up to the point they simply 'gave up' on humankind, because humanity turned their backs on the Radiants first... so they did the same and forswore their First Ideal en masse.  (I don't think I need to go all pedantic about how that happened, I think deliberately 'resigning' was enough to cause the Nahel bond to snap.)

 

While we don't know exactly why the Windrunners + Stonewards suddenly decided to throw down their arms and abandon their charge, I contend it's because they found out they were duped into joining the fighting (war?) that was going on at the time.

Edited March 5, 2015 by dvoraen

[Zas678]

But would Kaladin renounce his bond with Syl just because Dalinar got killed? Or even if some other group manipulated him into fighting? I don't think so. I think it has to be a deeper betrayal than that. 

[dvoraen]

But would Kaladin renounce his bond with Syl just because Dalinar got killed? Or even if some other group manipulated him into fighting? I don't think so. I think it has to be a deeper betrayal than that. 

It very well could be.  My thoughts on the matter are, after all, mostly born of speculation on the question 'Why would the Knights change'?  I do think, however, that without a Bondsmith actively upholding his or her Ideals, even Windrunners can be... goaded into situations that cause conflict with their Ideals.  I also think we've also seen possible encouragement from the Unmade on Kaladin too (I'm referring to p314 of the hardback, last page of Chapter 25), so that didn't help any, either.

 

For an example of a situation that could goad him into fighting, Kaladin seeing Roshone again will likely be... a trial, especially if Roshone tries to use Kal's parents as leverage against him.

Edited March 5, 2015 by dvoraen

[jefftucker0525]

I didnt read th entire thread, so if this was already mentioned then my bad. But i remember in one of Dalinars earlier visions the female KR said something about one nation being made to wage war so the others didnt have to. So, if thats the idea, then it isnt valid anymore when other nations are waging war. Thus, their original point of existence is no longer being achieved. Also, theyre no longer fighting Voidbringers.

[Mckeedee123]

I didnt read th entire thread, so if this was already mentioned then my bad. But i remember in one of Dalinars earlier visions the female KR said something about one nation being made to wage war so the others didnt have to. So, if thats the idea, then it isnt valid anymore when other nations are waging war. Thus, their original point of existence is no longer being achieved. Also, theyre no longer fighting Voidbringers.

 

Yeah, but they killed their spren. They did something so bad (from the spren's perspective) that many modern spren in Shadesmar are refusing to send new ones to be bonded before the desolation out of fear, hatred, and distrust.

 

By the way, the cause of the recreance was not situational, either, like as if their leaders got killed or something. The encrypted epigram from The Diagram ("HOLD THE SECRET THAT BROKE THE KNIGHTS RADIANT. YOU MAY NEED IT TO DESTROY THE NEW ORDERS WHEN THEY RETURN") implies that there was an actual secret which, when uncovered, caused the Radiants to break their oaths. A "Wicked thing of eminence", if you will.

 

I would guess that the secret pertains to the nature of the Nahel Bond itself. Something that it does to the spren or human as it progresses. Kaladin has noted that the physical shape of Syl's face changes , sometimes, and the way these incidents are brushed aside makes me suspicious. Also note that Hoid has never met Syl. They seem to have been avoiding one another. The time that Hoid meets Kaladin in WoK is one of only a handful of times when Syl isn't with him. Similar with WoR.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[Darkness]

I feel like this little thing gets ignored every time this discussion comes up:

The Knights killed their spren. True.

They left them behind in the ground. Stuck in Shardblade form. True.

Radiantspren only take Shardblade form when their knights need them that way. Probably yes.

Spren choose to participate in the bond. I would suggest that spren choose what form they want to take, from a pile of leaves, to a young girl, to a cabbage sprouting tentacles.

Here's my point: The spren chose to stay in Shardblade form while the Radiant 'put them down'. All of them. This strongly suggests to me that the spren knew what was coming and agreed with it. All of them. They knew what it would mean, and chose to accept it.

To me, that means it was absolutely necessary. I don't know why, but I do think the spren were supportive of the purpose behind the Recreance, as were the Knights involved. Otherwise we'd see spren turning into leaves or young people and flitting off, or dying in forms other than Shardblades as the bond was broken.

[laxrulz777]

I've had the pet theory that the Parshendi are "innocent" and when the KR found out that they'd been fighting them, they realized that they'd been actively violating their oaths. In the scene where they give up their swords and plate, the spren are already dead. Now, devoid of an ability to use Surges or touch Stormlight, they feel like they've lost everything (after all, compared to the ability to do the lashings, the shardblade is small potatoes). They throw their swords and plate down in disgust and disperse.

 

So the "secret" is to reveal why the Parshendi are so innocent to the KR. That would destroy them again.

[Moogle]

I've had the pet theory that the Parshendi are "innocent" and when the KR found out that they'd been fighting them, they realized that they'd been actively violating their oaths. In the scene where they give up their swords and plate, the spren are already dead. Now, devoid of an ability to use Surges or touch Stormlight, they feel like they've lost everything (after all, compared to the ability to do the lashings, the shardblade is small potatoes). They throw their swords and plate down in disgust and disperse.

 

I'm not sure accidentally breaking your oaths would be enough to kill your spren. Say Kaladin slips, and he pushes a boulder off a cliff and kills someone. Does Syl just die? I don't really think so. I think it has more to do with intent.

 

Also, as counter-evidence: the Shards of the Radiants were glowing at the time that they summoned them, and the instant they throw them away is when Dalinar hears sudden screaming and the glow fades. This would suggest the spren were alive until then, as dead Shardblades do not glow and live ones do as far as we've seen.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616]

I feel like this little thing gets ignored every time this discussion comes up:

The Knights killed their spren. True.

They left them behind in the ground. Stuck in Shardblade form. True.

Radiantspren only take Shardblade form when their knights need them that way. Probably yes.

Spren choose to participate in the bond. I would suggest that spren choose what form they want to take, from a pile of leaves, to a young girl, to a cabbage sprouting tentacles.

Here's my point: The spren chose to stay in Shardblade form while the Radiant 'put them down'. All of them. This strongly suggests to me that the spren knew what was coming and agreed with it. All of them. They knew what it would mean, and chose to accept it.

To me, that means it was absolutely necessary. I don't know why, but I do think the spren were supportive of the purpose behind the Recreance, as were the Knights involved. Otherwise we'd see spren turning into leaves or young people and flitting off, or dying in forms other than Shardblades as the bond was broken.

 

This is sketchy to me. If the spren died willingly, why to the current spren claim humans betrayed them? Why does the Stormfather, someone who has been around since before the betrayal, have such distrust of humans? That distrust and the common belief of betrayal tells me the spren didn't willingly partake. I'm still not sure how all the Radiants could make such a plan without any of their spren knowing, but it seems clear to me that they did.

[laxrulz777]

This is sketchy to me. If the spren died willingly, why to the current spren claim humans betrayed them? Why does the Stormfather, someone who has been around since before the betrayal, have such distrust of humans? That distrust and the common belief of betrayal tells me the spren didn't willingly partake. I'm still not sure how all the Radiants could make such a plan without any of their spr. en knowing, but it seems clear to me that they did.

Just to play devils advocate. Think about the parent who's child goes off to join the army. The child makes good decisions and fights a just fight but dies charging a hill to save members of his platoon. Some parents, wracked with grief, will blame the army (especially if they had misgivings in the beginning). If this is the tone the other spren take and it's the attitude taught to young spren then it would be consistent.

 

I'm not actually a fan of this. But it doesn't strike me as wholly false.

 

I'm not sure accidentally breaking your oaths would be enough to kill your spren. Say Kaladin slips, and he pushes a boulder off a cliff and kills someone. Does Syl just die? I don't really think so. I think it has more to do with intent.

 

Also, as counter-evidence: the Shards of the Radiants were glowing at the time that they summoned them, and the instant they throw them away is when Dalinar hears sudden screaming and the glow fades. This would suggest the spren were alive until then, as dead Shardblades do not glow and live ones do as far as we've seen.

Accidentally? Probably not. But if they had been told that the Parshendi were innocent then attacked anyways (out of the sort of internal justification that all humans are guilty of). Then, confronted with the truth and having their internal justification ripped away, their bond is broken.

 

Your second point is a lot more compelling. It leaves me curious as to what would cause ALL of the KR (or possibly all except one chapter right?) to violate their oaths in such a dramatic fashion. Even the previous poster who suggested that they'd deviated from their purpose and were no fighting each other makes no sense.

 

I feel like the Recreance is THE big mystery in Stormlight and I'm worried that we're going to have to wait 6-15 years to find out what it is.

[hoser]

I feel like this little thing gets ignored every time this discussion comes up:

The Knights killed their spren. True.

They left them behind in the ground. Stuck in Shardblade form. True.

Radiantspren only take Shardblade form when their knights need them that way. Probably yes.

Spren choose to participate in the bond. I would suggest that spren choose what form they want to take, from a pile of leaves, to a young girl, to a cabbage sprouting tentacles.

Here's my point: The spren chose to stay in Shardblade form while the Radiant 'put them down'. All of them. This strongly suggests to me that the spren knew what was coming and agreed with it. All of them. They knew what it would mean, and chose to accept it.

To me, that means it was absolutely necessary. I don't know why, but I do think the spren were supportive of the purpose behind the Recreance, as were the Knights involved. Otherwise we'd see spren turning into leaves or young people and flitting off, or dying in forms other than Shardblades as the bond was broken.

I generally agree with this, although I believe that there is WoB (but am too lazy to look it up right now) that when a Knight reaches a certain level, the default form (which they would revert to upon "death") is the Shardblade.

 

I'm not sure accidentally breaking your oaths would be enough to kill your spren. Say Kaladin slips, and he pushes a boulder off a cliff and kills someone. Does Syl just die? I don't really think so. I think it has more to do with intent.

 

Also, as counter-evidence: the Shards of the Radiants were glowing at the time that they summoned them, and the instant they throw them away is when Dalinar hears sudden screaming and the glow fades. This would suggest the spren were alive until then, as dead Shardblades do not glow and live ones do as far as we've seen.

I find this very interesting.  The Recreance seems planned and coordinated to me.  So planning the Recreance did not violate the Oaths, but actually going through with it did. 

 

This is sketchy to me. If the spren died willingly, why to the current spren claim humans betrayed them? Why does the Stormfather, someone who has been around since before the betrayal, have such distrust of humans? That distrust and the common belief of betrayal tells me the spren didn't willingly partake. I'm still not sure how all the Radiants could make such a plan without any of their spren knowing, but it seems clear to me that they did.

There is definitely something missing here.  So far, the spren who believe in the betrayal have not shown that they understand the reasoning for the Recreance.  It isn't clear to me whether or not the Stormfather existed at the time of the Recreance.  Had the spren affected by the Recreance had a problem with it, it seems to me that they could have communicated or interfered, so it seems at least possible that they were in accordance with it. 

 

Overall, I guess we're supposed to not know, but I find it annoying when the solutions are so easy.  For example, Tanavast is creating these projections including the Recreance, and asking for the Knights to be reconstituted.  Why not make a projection that explains the Recreance from the POV of the Knights and shows how to avoid it happening again? 

[Blaze1616]

Just to play devils advocate. Think about the parent who's child goes off to join the army. The child makes good decisions and fights a just fight but dies charging a hill to save members of his platoon. Some parents, wracked with grief, will blame the army (especially if they had misgivings in the beginning). If this is the tone the other spren take and it's the attitude taught to young spren then it would be consistent.

 

For the entirety of the spren population to believe so? I feel you're stretching real hard for that to be considered valid. If it was just the Stormfather, I would be inclined to agree. But Syl claims to be the only honorspren to have bonded a human. Pattern regards that the Cryptics, as a committee or some such thing, decided they would allow him to bond. It is heavily implied that all spren believe they were betrayed. I understand, and appreciate, playing Devil's Advocate, but that is some weak tea

 

 

I generally agree with this, although I believe that there is WoB (but am too lazy to look it up right now) that when a Knight reaches a certain level, the default form (which they would revert to upon "death") is the Shardblade.

 

It's the default form upon death when the Nahel Bond reaches the point in which the spren can become a blade. So, if Kaladin were to pull similar antics to what he did in WoR now, Syl would be stuck in blade form forever/until revived. There was WoB, as you say, but I'm not sure where (I think it was recent).

 

 

There is definitely something missing here.  So far, the spren who believe in the betrayal have not shown that they understand the reasoning for the Recreance.  It isn't clear to me whether or not the Stormfather existed at the time of the Recreance.  Had the spren affected by the Recreance had a problem with it, it seems to me that they could have communicated or interfered, so it seems at least possible that they were in accordance with it. 

 

Well the Stormfather was likely around while Honor was still kicking (Nightwatcher is to Cultivation as Stormfather is to Honor, and Cultivation is still kickin, so yeah). Since Radiants couldn't exist until after Honor's Splintering (birth of spren), it stands to reason that the Stormfather was there.

[Moogle]

Well the Stormfather was likely around while Honor was still kicking (Nightwatcher is to Cultivation as Stormfather is to Honor, and Cultivation is still kickin, so yeah). Since Radiants couldn't exist until after Honor's Splintering (birth of spren), it stands to reason that the Stormfather was there.

 

I'm just going to pop in here and mention that the Stormfather is an enigma wrapped in a mystery and I would be very hesitant in claiming he's anything.

 

He's Honor's Cognitive Shadow now, but before humans came to Roshar he existed as the Rider of Storms. And it's unclear how a Cognitive Shadow can exist while someone is still alive, so I am very very hesitant to claim the Nightwatcher is exactly like the Stormfather at face value. He might be now, but in the past?

 

Also: Radiants existed pre-Splintering. Spren were less numerous, but they still existed before Honor kicked the bucket, as Pattern says here:

Stormfather. Shallan pulled the blanket around her closer. “An entire people, all killed?”

“Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

 

(Edit: I guess he doesn't confirm that they existed pre-Splintering, but I think this can be assumed due to Honor being sucky at viewing the future and him showing a ton of visions involving Radiants.)

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[laxrulz777]

For the entirety of the spren population to believe so? I feel you're stretching real hard for that to be considered valid. If it was just the Stormfather, I would be inclined to agree. But Syl claims to be the only honorspren to have bonded a human. Pattern regards that the Cryptics, as a committee or some such thing, decided they would allow him to bond. It is heavily implied that all spren believe they were betrayed. I understand, and appreciate, playing Devil's Advocate, but that is some weak tea

It's a bit of a stretch, I'll admit, though we see a similar thing in the human population. Alethi females hide their safe-hand. They believe looking into the future is wrong. Nobody remembers the Parshendi role in the desolations.

 

Maybe there was already a minor schism in Spren culture around the Nahel bond? The Spren who survived were already the ones uninclined to bond with a human. Seeing a mass genocide take place amongst their brethren would be sufficient to create a pretty big shift in Spren attitude. As with Jasnah / Vorinism, there are those who challenge these thoughts (Syl and the Cryptic elders) but the general populace of Spren still carries a heavy anti-human bias.

 

I generally agree with this, although I believe that there is WoB (but am too lazy to look it up right now) that when a Knight reaches a certain level, the default form (which they would revert to upon "death") is the Shardblade.

This is what you were looking for

 

Q:  Why were all the shardblades swords when they can take on any weapon form they want? Would they all revert to swords when they die?

A:  When they die they'd revert to the basic form which was a sword since they were patterned after honorblades.

[Blaze1616]

I'm just going to pop in here and mention that the Stormfather is an enigma wrapped in a mystery and I would be very hesitant in claiming he's anything.

 

He's Honor's Cognitive Shadow now, but before humans came to Roshar he existed as the Rider of Storms. And it's unclear how a Cognitive Shadow can exist while someone is still alive, so I am very very hesitant to claim the Nightwatcher is exactly like the Stormfather at face value. He might be now, but in the past?

 

Also: Radiants existed pre-Splintering. Spren were less numerous, but they still existed before Honor kicked the bucket, as Pattern says here:

Stormfather. Shallan pulled the blanket around her closer. “An entire people, all killed?”

“Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

 

(Edit: I guess he doesn't confirm that they existed pre-Splintering, but I think this can be assumed due to Honor being sucky at viewing the future and him showing a ton of visions involving Radiants.)

 

I agree that the Stormfather is a cloud of mystery, but my comparison between him and the Nightwatcher still stands:

source

-What is the relationship between Nightwatcher and Cultivation?

I expected a hard RAFO, but he said Nightwatcher compared to Cultivation is similar to Stormfather compared to Honor

I will admit though that the WoB only says they are similar, not exact matches.

 

It sounds like you believe he was fundamentally different when he was the Rider of the Storms. Could you share your reasons for this? Whether I missed something stated in the novels/WoB or you've inferred it from evidence, I'd like to know as I don't recall anything hinting at such.

 

 

It's a bit of a stretch, I'll admit, though we see a similar thing in the human population. Alethi females hide their safe-hand. They believe looking into the future is wrong. Nobody remembers the Parshendi role in the desolations.

 

Maybe there was already a minor schism in Spren culture around the Nahel bond? The Spren who survived were already the ones uninclined to bond with a human. Seeing a mass genocide take place amongst their brethren would be sufficient to create a pretty big shift in Spren attitude. As with Jasnah / Vorinism, there are those who challenge these thoughts (Syl and the Cryptic elders) but the general populace of Spren still carries a heavy anti-human bias.

 

I see your point, but it still strikes me as highly unlikely. For one, the safehand and futuresight issues are religion based. Same as the aversion to suicide in the real world, for example. As for the Parshendi's role in the desolations, it could be due to Vorinism, or it could be because humans and Parshendi didn't mingle between past desolations. It also doesn't help that humans' knowledge base is wiped pretty much clean with each desolation. The spren conflict doesn't have that type of history, and I think it a rather large stretch to say all spren left alive after the betrayal would think that way. It's just too much of a stretch for me, personally.

[Moogle]

It sounds like you believe he was fundamentally different when he was the Rider of the Storms. Could you share your reasons for this? Whether I missed something stated in the novels/WoB or you've inferred it from evidence, I'd like to know as I don't recall anything hinting at such.

 

My logic this: humans are children of Honor (as the Stormfather calls Kaladin). We also know the listeners were not originally of Odium or Cultivation, and are not of Honor. (This strongly suggests creation by Adonalsium to me, but it is also possible they were originally of Honor and they are not any longer.) We also know that the highstorm is the only way listeners can change form. Eshonai never makes mention of a time when there was a highstorm but no Rider of the Storm.

 

The Stormfather existed before humans came to Roshar. Why would he be Honor's Cognitive Shadow on a planet where there is nothing of Honor yet? Humans were busy sipping on tea in the Tranquiline Halls when the Rider of Storms existed. Roshar as a whole seems like a Cultivation-planet, not an Honor-planet. (Save for Shinovar?)

 

A big thing is that the spren (including the Stormfather, as Eshonai notes) betrayed the listeners for the humans, which is to say that listeners had an established society before humanity showed up. The Stormfather calls them 'the ancient ones'.

 

We also know spren change based on the perception of people; listeners view spren much differently than humans did, and Surgebinders apparently didn't use to have to swear the First Ideal, hence Ishi's issues with them. (Seems like they do now, as Pattern mentions and WoB implies). I've written on the First Ideal problem here.

 

In total, this suggests to me that spren have changed massively over time as a result of perceptions, and that the Stormfather was originally not of Honor at all. Perhaps he sort of got co-opted into being his Cognitive Shadow as humanity began to perceive the Almighty and the highstorms as being linked.

 

(Also, I'm still rooting for the theory that Stormlight is of Adonalsium, though I'm not entirely sure I believe that.)

 

This is all speculation, but I think I'm on the right track even if I've got a lot of details off. Even if I'm entirely off, the Stormfather is confusing and is definitely not a normal spren, though maybe he was originally a spren???

 

To keep exploring speculation land: The Stormfather in no way acts like you'd expect Honor to act - he's insane, murderous, suspicious and has completely lost all hope. If this is because he was originally not Honor's Cognitive Shadow this would explain it while still allowing our knowledge of Cognitive Shadows as "ghosts" to work. The Stormfather would be a mix of Tanavast and an ancient Adonalsium-cum-Honorspren.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[laxrulz777]

The Stormfather existed before humans came to Roshar. Why would he be Honor's Cognitive Shadow on a planet where there is nothing of Honor yet?

-----

In total, this suggests to me that spren have changed massively over time as a result of perceptions, and that the Stormfather was originally not of Honor at all, and sort of got co-opted into being his Cognitive Shadow as humanity began to perceive the Almighty and the highstorms as being linked.

Is it possible that the Stormfather picked up Honor's Cognitive Shadow and is holding it (similar to how Kelsier picked up Preservation for a time... but different because one is a whole shard and the other isn't)? Brandon also made mention of the death being a "slow burn" process

 

Q:  Did the splintering happen before the Recreance?

A:  I will reveal this as we go.  However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed.  So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

 

 

that may mean that Tanavast had time to transfer his Cognitive Shadow willingly to the Stormfather over time...

[Blaze1616]

Thank Moogle, humans' perception of spren is a good point that I hadn't thought of. Cognitive Shadows are so perplexing...

 

Is it possible that Eshonai makes no mention because the Listeners' records/memory don't go back to a time before Honor being on Roshar?

[Moogle]

Thank Moogle, humans' perception of spren is a good point that I hadn't thought of. Cognitive Shadows are so perplexing...

 

Is it possible that Eshonai makes no mention because the Listeners' records/memory don't go back to a time before Honor being on Roshar?

 

Rlain suggests he knows of the war between listeners and humanity (since he claims the listener gods/Unmade are the souls of those ancient who hated humans.)

 

Eshonai, too, knows of the time humans came, since she speaks of the Stormfather betraying listeners for humanity.

 

So even if they don't have records of a time pre-Honor, they definitely know a lot about the time of humanity's appearance. If they know that, I expect they'd have some records of a time pre-Honor? I don't know here. Lots of rich ground for theories.

[hoser]

Thanks, Moogle, for a great exposition. 

My logic this: humans are children of Honor (as the Stormfather calls Kaladin). We also know the listeners were not originally of Odium or Cultivation, and are not of Honor. (This strongly suggests creation by Adonalsium to me, but it is also possible they were originally of Honor and they are not any longer.) We also know that the highstorm is the only way listeners can change form. Eshonai never makes mention of a time when there was a highstorm but no Rider of the Storm.

 

The Stormfather existed before humans came to Roshar. Why would he be Honor's Cognitive Shadow on a planet where there is nothing of Honor yet? Humans were busy sipping on tea in the Tranquiline Halls when the Rider of Storms existed. Roshar as a whole seems like a Cultivation-planet, not an Honor-planet. (Save for Shinovar?)

 

A big thing is that the spren (including the Stormfather, as Eshonai notes) betrayed the listeners for the humans, which is to say that listeners had an established society before humanity showed up. The Stormfather calls them 'the ancient ones'.

 

We also know spren change based on the perception of people; listeners view spren much differently than humans did, and Surgebinders apparently didn't use to have to swear the First Ideal, hence Ishi's issues with them. (Seems like they do now, as Pattern mentions and WoB implies). I've written on the First Ideal problem here.

 

In total, this suggests to me that spren have changed massively over time as a result of perceptions, and that the Stormfather was originally not of Honor at all. Perhaps he sort of got co-opted into being his Cognitive Shadow as humanity began to perceive the Almighty and the highstorms as being linked.

 

(Also, I'm still rooting for the theory that Stormlight is of Adonalsium, though I'm not entirely sure I believe that.)

 

This is all speculation, but I think I'm on the right track even if I've got a lot of details off. Even if I'm entirely off, the Stormfather is confusing and is definitely not a normal spren, though maybe he was originally a spren???

 

To keep exploring speculation land: The Stormfather in no way acts like you'd expect Honor to act - he's insane, murderous, suspicious and has completely lost all hope. If this is because he was originally not Honor's Cognitive Shadow this would explain it while still allowing our knowledge of Cognitive Shadows as "ghosts" to work. The Stormfather would be a mix of Tanavast and an ancient Adonalsium-cum-Honorspren.

For me, this asks a question about spren betrayal. 

 

I imagine the Listeners hanging out with Adonalsium spren, rocking to the tunes of the cognitive realm and changing with highstorms before Honor and Cultivation came with humans, chickens, horses, etc and terraformed some terrain (dawncities). 

 

With the Investiture from H+C and the differing thought patterns of the new beings, new spren developed including the Nahel bond spren, which, so far, seem to have exclusively bonded with non-listeners. 

 

Is the betrayal of the spren (from the listeners POV) the choice of the new spren or are there other spren that were once allied to the listeners that changed allegiance (leaving aside the Stormfather for now)?

Edited March 11, 2015 by hoser

[Honor's Radiance]

I find this very interesting.  The Recreance seems planned and coordinated to me.  So planning the Recreance did not violate the Oaths, but actually going through with it did. 

 

This would be similar to how Syl died--except that happened more when Kaladin decided to go through with the plan because Syl was gone by the time they were actually trying to assassinate Elhokar. (Am I remembering this correctly?) Maybe the difference has something to do with the bond having progressed to default-sword-form for the KR.

 

Also: Radiants existed pre-Splintering. Spren were less numerous, but they still existed before Honor kicked the bucket, as Pattern says here:

Stormfather. Shallan pulled the blanket around her closer. “An entire people, all killed?”

“Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

 

This makes me very curious what other spren survived the Recreance. I suppose the "very few survivors" could be the few spren of certain groups that weren't bonded, but I took this as implying that Pattern was talking about bonded spren specifically. Presumably, if the Stormfather had been bonded to a Bondsmith before, then whichever other spren (if it wasn't the Stormfather for all of them) were bonded to Bondsmiths might have survived, by analogy. But "some" would suggest more than three to me--I wonder what kind of spren are capable of surviving the Recreance, and why? Were their Knights less inclined to participate, thus not fully breaking their oaths? Were they stronger somehow than other spren?

[hoser]

This would be similar to how Syl died--except that happened more when Kaladin decided to go through with the plan because Syl was gone by the time they were actually trying to assassinate Elhokar. (Am I remembering this correctly?) Maybe the difference has something to do with the bond having progressed to default-sword-form for the KR.

 

 

This makes me very curious what other spren survived the Recreance. I suppose the "very few survivors" could be the few spren of certain groups that weren't bonded, but I took this as implying that Pattern was talking about bonded spren specifically. Presumably, if the Stormfather had been bonded to a Bondsmith before, then whichever other spren (if it wasn't the Stormfather for all of them) were bonded to Bondsmiths might have survived, by analogy. But "some" would suggest more than three to me--I wonder what kind of spren are capable of surviving the Recreance, and why? Were their Knights less inclined to participate, thus not fully breaking their oaths? Were they stronger somehow than other spren?

Actually, I think the situation with Syl was different.  Kaladin's actions at the time of her death were completely consistent with his oaths.  The problem was that the bond was attenuated and she forced stormlight to him to save his life when the bond wouldn't support it (or something like that). 

 

We know that one order of Knights did not participate in the Recreance (widely believed to be the Skybreakers).  I further assume due to Nin's slaughtering of protoradiants that the skybreakers stopped adding new Surgebinders.  When these Skybreakers died off, their spren would have survived.  I assume that other random spren were unbonded because their Knights had just died or whatever (which I assume was Syl's situation). 

 

Notice all the "I assumes."  People with better explanations will certainly chime in here. 

[Dahak]

I feel like the Recreance is THE big mystery in Stormlight and I'm worried that we're going to have to wait 6-15 years to find out what it is.

 

That doesn't feel like Sanderson's usual style. I'm expecting Taravangian to try starting a second Recreance in the next book or so.

 

[natc]

That doesn't feel like Sanderson's usual style. I'm expecting Taravangian to try starting a second Recreance in the next book or so.

There really aren't enough formally recognized Radiants to have much impact. We barely have 4. Probably hundreds of surgebinders out there, but they haven't found and recruited them all yet (it's been what, a few weeks at most? Lol) and several probably have some legal pretense for Nale to kill them in.

They have to all be in one place to learn the terrible secret anyway.