Cosmere MBTI

[maxal]

 

Any respectable ESFJ will ramble from time to time. We truly can't help it

 

 

 

It was a lot more than just her hair though - it was pretty much everything about her.

 

 

Certainly Shallan sells herself short, not just in terms of looks but pretty much everything... though what I was trying to say was more like this: Shallan's assessment of what attributes are considered "ideal" beauty in Alethkar (and how she fails to match that ideal) is entirely correct as best as I can tell. Yet Adolin, who supposedly goes along with social expectations, still finds her extremely attractive immediately. It's not just that he finds her attractive in spite of social conventions but that her not following social conventions of beauty makes her even more attractive - or at least, that's how it reads to me.

 

Going back to my feeling that Adolin is attracted to the new/exotic in general I'll withdraw it for now: I've re-read nearly all of his scenes from tWoK and WoR and there's little real evidence.

 

I understand why people would think Adolin is attracted to new/exotic things based on Shallan. However, I do not think this is what is happening with him. Alethkar appears to be a very uniform society: everyone looks the same, behaves the same. Adolin has a foreign mother and has inherited some of her traits (I am assuming this is the case, pure speculation here), which makes him stand out in the crowd. Moreover, as Andrew put it, the noble Alethi society seems to be based on SP-type individuals. N-type male such as Renarin do not do well. SJ-types like Adolin succeeds, because ESFJ will work to no ends to perfect any given skill they have, but it is still enough to make him ill at-ease (for lack of better words) with his peers. He's emotional, he wants his relationships to mean something, he wants to connect with his love interest (even if he is completely unable to phrase it, his whole behavior speaks on this unaccounted for desire). Basically, he wants to fall in love, but he can't with women who spend all their leisure time talking about themselves, or listening to poetry, because he can't connect with them... They are not authentic nor genuine, all they do/say is part of a game. They are not interested in him. ESFJ care, a lot, but they also, secretly, want to be cared for as well..

 

Therefore, the Alethi typical noble woman does not work for him, which is why he gets attracted to foreign exotic sharp-tongued and genuine Shallan. She gave him authenticity, she gave something outside the game, outside the planned script. She lets him open-up, be spontaneous and honest: in other words be himself. ESFJ-type people often need to tone themselves down in a crowd, to filter their thoughts so as not to come up too aggressive or too straight-forward or too anything, but inside most of us are craving to just be ourselves. Adolin certainly was. It is no surprise he fell for Shallan almost immediately.

 

It is not about the exotic, it's about her being an authentic non-judgmental person that can take a joke or two without getting on her high horses.

 

This is how I read it anyway.

 

 

Indeed. Adolin himself says he prefers to have a wide circle of "friends" and we see in his first date with Shallan that though he's friendly and relaxed he's still a bit reserved - Shallan finds some of his reactions rather "scripted"... until she drives a truck chasamfiend through his comforting expectations.

 

This. I have been doing this all my life. Not all ESFJ will behave this way, but some will. We like people, we like to be surrounded, we like to talk and have a tendency to ramble or repeat ourselves.... It's annoying for many people. We even annoy our own self at times The more people there are, the more chances we get to go on and talk over and over again. We never run out of things to say and if we do, we'll just go back to the beginning. Entertaining a large number of acquaintances provide endless opportunity to just....... talk

 

However, the fact he does not get intimate with anyone is another matter. I tend do that as well... I will talk and talk and talk and talk. Everyone, everywhere knows everything about my life but they rarely get to know how I feel. They especially don't get to know when I hurt. Hurt, pain, sadness, doubts, insecurities, I often keep deep down. Why? Fear. Fear my doubts will be confirmed, my insecurities will turn into realities and then I'll have to deal with the rising pain/hurt. Strong emotions are hard to contain, to deal with. It's nearly impossible to avoid anger, but we can wall ourselves in to avoid pain. That, some ESFJ will do. Some won't. Adolin seems to do it. Even with Renarin, he does it. He does not tell him about the things that matters: about his heart, about his doubts. He keeps that to himself. When Jakamav tells him he won't go out with him because his family has run out of favors, Adolin is genuinely hurt. He is hurting for what seems like not much. Other people would just have brush it of without consequences, but emotional Adolin wonders if he has any friends in his sea of acquaintances. The thought he may not actually hurts him, more than any physical blow on the battle field.

 

Typical ESFJ. Can be shove around, push around to no avail, but attack the heart and we crumble, instantly.

[Fallen Rope]

Does Brandon know about MBTI, because there are 16 categories, could be one per shard. 

That is probably wrong, but what type would the shards be if they have one.

[AndrewStirlingMacDonald]

I doubt that there is an intentional connection, but it could make for an interesting study anyway... Though it will be a little tough because we will end up with half of the types that will be assigned to negative shards.

 

Let's start with the two sides of Harmony. I feel like Preservation must needs be an SJ. Who loves preservation more than SJs? And I feel like Harmony ought to have all eight types, so Ruin will have to be an NP. Hmmm... I'm going to take an initial stab and say ESFJ is Preservation, and INTP is Ruin. And, come to think of it, most INTPs that I know would not particularly mind being associated with ruin.

 

Endowment sounds like an SP to me. Maybe an ESTP?

Dominion sounds like it could be either an ENFJ or ENTJ.

 

Odium is probably an INFJ, always bitter because it thinks that nobody understands it.

 

I'm going to say Cultivation is an INTJ.

So here are my best guesses, so far:

Ruin: INTP
Preservation: ESFJ
Endowment: ESTP
Dominion: ENFJ
Odium: INFJ
Cultivation: INTJ
Devotion: INFP
Honor: ESTJ

That's eight so far... We still need shards for ISFJ, ISTJ, ESFP, ISFP, ISTP, ENFP, ENTP, ENTJ.

Based on this, I'm going to guess that the remaining eight shards are as follows:

ISFJ: Copaceticity
ISTJ: Reticence
ESFP: Hedonism
ISFP: Surliness
ISTP: Recklessness
ENFP: Charisma
ENTJ: Forcefulness
ENTP: Perfection

I've done it! I've solved the mystery of the remaining shards!

Edited January 19, 2015 by AndrewStirlingMacDonald

[kari-no-sugata]

Going back to an earlier post:

SHALLAN (INFJ): She is every INFJ I've ever met.

 

I would be interested to see you expand some more on your analysis of Shallan. Personally, I think I understand her reasonably well but am not especially confident about it - need to read between the lines quite a lot more with Shallan.

 

For example, Shallan's wit: she's in particularly fine form during the scenes down in the chasms with Kaladin, which quite a few people seem to find annoying. I think her wit going into overdrive there is mostly because she's nervous/worried - about the impending highstorm, the chasmfiend and Kaladin. Can call it a coping mechanism though I think it's a bit more complicated than that. However, in the final part of WoR Shallan's wit is almost entirely absent - here, I think she's getting stressed out being due to the heavy official responsibility she has of finding and opening the Oathgate to save the 30,000 strong army (Brandon has confirmed she was stressed there but not the exact cause IIRC). It might seem strange that she reacts so differently to different types of stress but there is an area where I react similarly to Shallan - some kinds of pressure I can kinda shrug off but others I don't even though the relative importance can be the other way around.

 

In the old D&D style alignment terminology I tend to think of Shallan as being "chaotic good", though relatively mild - pro-active but not selfish, relishes freedom and doesn't like being confined (even if the intentions are good). Pretty similar to Hoid in a number of ways - he's practically the patron saint of Lightweavers anyway. If we consider the letter writers in the epigraphs of tWoK and WoR (probably Hoid and Frost though I don't think this has been 100% confirmed), they have very different philosophies and I suspect that Shallan would strongly agree with Hoid's stance and Dalinar would strongly agree with Frost's stance - I'm hoping to see a strong clash of philosophies between Shallan and Dalinar in the next book.

 

I think an interesting example of Shallan's "chaotic good"-ness is when she takes the slaves from Tvlakv: I feel she did this mainly because she sympathised with the slaves and was increasingly disdainful of Tvlakv. If she really needed slaves for herself she wouldn't have immediately offered them the chance to run away - instead she offers them a job and a golden opportunity for them to earn their freedom gently. I suspect she would have simply bought them if she had sufficient funds. I don't think she wanted to ruin Tvlakv though - she probably paid massively over the true value for the wagon and didn't seem to mind much.

[maxal]

How about ISFJ for Shallan? She is a hard one to grasp for me... However, she could fit within the sentinels.. She was prompt to protect her brothers and this desire has sure guided her actions up until now. There are said to be supportive, imaginative, observant, enthusiastic, hard-working. They are said to be altruistic:

 

The best part is, ISFJs have the practical sense to actually do something with all this altruism. If mundane, routine tasks are what need to be done, ISFJs can see the beauty and harmony that they create, because they know that it helps them to care for their friends, family, and anyone else who needs it.

 

This could fit Shallan, I think, but I am unsure. Any ISFJ or INFJ that can see themselves in Shallan?

[AndrewStirlingMacDonald]

The reasons I say NF for Shallan is that even though she does have tremendous personal responsibilities and she is doing her best to take care of those, she is constantly being distracted by the opportunities she has for personal growth and development, and when push comes to shove, she generally chooses that. The I thing seems pretty straightforward to me, as does the J - she meticulously plans things out, and even though she is fairly good at improvising, she hates it and it makes her feel awkward and uncomfortable - unlike, say, Kaladin, who feels more comfortable the less of a plan he has to stick to.  She also is very caught up in her own thoughts, ideas and philosophies, and frequently [nearly always] overthinks the meanings of her various social interactions.

[+Slowswift]

I'm... Devotion. Huh. Didn't see that one coming.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Slowswift

[AndrewStirlingMacDonald]

During the Figment chat tonight, someone asked Brandon whether he was familiar with Myers-Briggs, he said that he was familiar with it, and found it interesting, but that he doesn't directly use it in his writing.

[maxal]

The reasons I say NF for Shallan is that even though she does have tremendous personal responsibilities and she is doing her best to take care of those, she is constantly being distracted by the opportunities she has for personal growth and development, and when push comes to shove, she generally chooses that. The I thing seems pretty straightforward to me, as does the J - she meticulously plans things out, and even though she is fairly good at improvising, she hates it and it makes her feel awkward and uncomfortable - unlike, say, Kaladin, who feels more comfortable the less of a plan he has to stick to.  She also is very caught up in her own thoughts, ideas and philosophies, and frequently [nearly always] overthinks the meanings of her various social interactions.

 

There are a few items within the INFJ personality type that seems of for Shallan...

 

Seeing through dishonesty and disingenuous motives, INFJs step past manipulation and sales tactics and into a more honest discussion. INFJs see how people and events are connected, and are able to use that insight to get to the heart of the matter.

 

This part specifically seems quite outside Shallan. We have yet to see her having a honest conversation. She is a con-woman, always playing a game behind a game for a hidden agenda.

 

These strengths are used for good. INFJs have strong beliefs and take the actions that they do not because they are trying to advance themselves, but because they are trying to advance an idea that they truly believe will make the world a better place.

 

Shallan is not trying to advance any idea, much unlike Jasnah. She is 1) trying to protect her brothers, 2) trying to suck up knowledge for her scholarship.

 

I could be wrong though.

 

 

During the Figment chat tonight, someone asked Brandon whether he was familiar with Myers-Briggs, he said that he was familiar with it, and found it interesting, but that he doesn't directly use it in his writing.

 

I wonder where he gets his inspiration... or how he manages to craft such plausible characters. Whether or not he reads the Myers-Briggs, he has created a wide array of characters acting consistently with there alleged type. Does he ask other people? Characters such as Adolin are obviously very far from him, so I can't help wondering  how he does it.

[kari-no-sugata]

The reasons I say NF for Shallan is that even though she does have tremendous personal responsibilities and she is doing her best to take care of those, she is constantly being distracted by the opportunities she has for personal growth and development, and when push comes to shove, she generally chooses that.

 

Shallan responsible? Definitely. To the degree that she can be quite self-sacrificing at times. I always get surprised when I see people say that Shallan blames Pattern for her parents death as I see no evidence for this and plenty to the contrary.

Simple example: after her second meeting with the Ghostbloods ("Veil's Lesson") Shallan finds that her coach driver got murdered by them. She immediately feels responsible and brushes off Pattern's comment that she didn't kill him. This is also why she is a bit depressed the next day and wants Adolin to take her to the menagerie.

Shallan distracted? Oh yes But taking personal growth over responsibilities? Don't think I can agree with that - got any particular examples in mind? She does distract herself when she should be paying more attention but I don't remember a case where that caused real harm to her goals. If you're thinking of her time with Tyn I'd be willing to argue it.

 

The I thing seems pretty straightforward to me, as does the J - she meticulously plans things out, and even though she is fairly good at improvising, she hates it and it makes her feel awkward and uncomfortable - unlike, say, Kaladin, who feels more comfortable the less of a plan he has to stick to.

She can certainly plan for herself - I wonder if she can make good plans for groups too? She seems to be pretty good at coming up with ideas and then evaluating those ideas from multiple angles too and I suspect she is good at multi-tasking. Unsurprisingly, she still makes numerous mistakes though generally small or easily handled ones.

 

I like feeling that I'm prepared too, if it's not something I'm used to. Shallan generally feels she's poorly educated and lacking in experience but I think her background (largely teaching herself and trying to solve real world problems) has given her some useful and rare skills for someone her age and I feel she has the academic equivalent of "street smarts" - a good example being her first meeting with Jasnah in tWoK when Jasnah asked her how she would estimate the weight of the boulder. Rather than regurgitate the academic model answer Shallan gave a simple practical answer that I don't think Jasnah had even considered based on her reaction and praise.

 

She also is very caught up in her own thoughts, ideas and philosophies, and frequently [nearly always] overthinks the meanings of her various social interactions.

"What if you need to poop?"

I wonder if she'd be much different in this aspect if she had some proper friends/peers at home...

[kari-no-sugata]

There are a few items within the INFJ personality type that seems of for Shallan...

 

Seeing through dishonesty and disingenuous motives, INFJs step past manipulation and sales tactics and into a more honest discussion. INFJs see how people and events are connected, and are able to use that insight to get to the heart of the matter.

 

This part specifically seems quite outside Shallan. We have yet to see her having a honest conversation. She is a con-woman, always playing a game behind a game for a hidden agenda.

 

I don't think Shallan would like a job in sales, or at least "product" sales where you're selling something pre-packaged. I would expect her to instinctively want to be open with others - I would expect she would rebel against compelled (explicitly or implicitly) by a corporation to use manipulation or dubious tactics for the sake of profit or commission. I think she'd prefer to be self-employed or working in a small company... or selling full "services" (in-depth and long-term work with customers and creating custom solutions to their specific needs).

While she can be quite "slippery" at times, I don't remember Shallan taking pleasure or enjoyment from lies while there's plenty of examples where she's unhappy with her lies. She rarely disguises her emotions (mostly acting more confident than she actually is) which is why she blushes all the time (I think) while a true con artist would be very different - Shallan never even hides her name, except from the Ghostbloods. Maybe in the future we'll see her being able to create separate personas but she's failed when tried so far (Veil was basically Shallan with different visuals) though she can imitate others (eg Jasnah).

 

In tWoK one of Kaladin's inner conflicts is between the "soldier" and the "surgeon" while one of Shallan's inner conflicts is between her desire for "the Truth" while being adept at deceiving herself and others when necessary. I don't know if this will be a persistent problem for her or if it will come to a head in the next book - she will likely need to resolve this if she is to become a full Lightweaver/Radiant. If she's unlucky or foolish then it could easily end badly for her (I hope she doesn't repeat Kaladin's mistakes from WoR).

 

I don't remember her ever conning or deceiving Palona (Sebarial's darkeyed mistress) and she straight up admitted to "bullying" Sebarial and that she didn't want to be "restricted" by being in the Kholin house. Apart from saying she burnt down the ship rather than Soulcasting it I don't think Shallan lied to or deceived Navani. I don't think she lied to or deceived Jasnah in WoR. I don't think she lied to or deceived her brothers or step-mother. I don't think she treats her goals like a game.

Also, consider this: she came out and told Dalinar she was a proto-Radiant entirely voluntarily and on just the third meeting between them that we see in the book - before Dalinar's head bodyguard (Kaladin), his own son (Renarin) and his own niece (Jasnah). She trusted Kabsal (against Jasnah's advice) and regretted it, trusted Tyn and regretted it, trusted Mraize and regretted it... and was still willing to try trusting Dalinar despite not particularly liking authority figures.

In the chapter from Kaladin's POV where Adolin and Shallan go to the menagerie, do you think Kaladin's view of Shallan (and Lighteyes in general) is fair and reasonable? I'd say it's obviously unfair (it's to hint at Kaladin's problems) and that Kaladin himself at the end of WoR would disagree his view at that time.

 

 

These strengths are used for good. INFJs have strong beliefs and take the actions that they do not because they are trying to advance themselves, but because they are trying to advance an idea that they truly believe will make the world a better place.

 

Shallan is not trying to advance any idea, much unlike Jasnah. She is 1) trying to protect her brothers, 2) trying to suck up knowledge for her scholarship.

 

I could be wrong though.

 

During most of WoR her primary focus is on advancing Jasnah's ideas on the Parshendi/Parshmen/Voidbringers (ie hoping to avert a world-wide disaster). It's why she goes to the Shattered Plains - she believes there's clues there to get to Urithiru. She hopes that Urithiru will contain the necessary evidence to persuade the Highprinces that the Parshmen are dangerous Voidbringers - though she doesn't know that it's almost impossible to stop before she even gets there. It's why she wants to discuss Jasnah's work with Navani and tries again and again. It's why she wants to be able to tap the Kholins' resources - to help her explore the Shattered Plains and also help persuade everyone to give up the Parshmen. It's why she infiltrates the Ghostbloods - she knowns they're investigating similar things and hopes they have information that could help her. She does hope she might be able to help her family situation in some way with the Ghostbloods too but it was only a hope that never got anywhere (with sting in the tail that now Mraize holds her brothers).

 

A lot of things she works on are directly related to the above. Most obviously, investigating Jasnah's notes to learn more about Urithiru. Some of her earlier work on Lightweaving is more open-ended (ie what is it and what can I do with it) while later on it's more goal-orientated (how can I achieve this, how can I avoid this potential problem) and most of those goals involve the Ghostbloods.

 

Her brief "apprenticeship" to Tyn is a mixed bag: initially it pretty much just fell into her lap - Tyn figures Shallan to be someone like herself and reveals herself to Shallan and wants in on her secrets. This puts Shallan in a difficult position - if she rejects Tyn's assumptions and refuses to cooperate then that effectively makes them enemies to some degree, a complication Shallan could do without. Tyn also clearly has more information (and access to further information) that Shallan does not - initially her desire for information through Tyn is more about the state of her country (and how it could affect her brothers) but it also becomes her gateway to the Ghostbloods. Shallan was certainly happy to learn what skills she could from Tyn once she started and it was interesting how she made use of certain things later on (mostly against the Ghostbloods), but I don't think that was much of a factor early on.

 

Her relationship with Adolin is another mixed bag: prior to arriving at the war camps the whole betrothal thing was not a big deal for her since she wasn't optimistic that it would even continue without Jasnah to support her and her primary goal was finding Urithiru and preparing for the Voidbringers. Though the betrothal could help with both that and her brothers she also knew she had to be prepared to go it alone too (if both help from Navani and the betrothal fall through). When she actually gets there her hopes for help from Navani go down in flames but the betrothal continues and Shallan gets a brand new (and personal) reason to want to make the best of it - she finds Adolin brain-meltingly attractive and (later on) just really pleasant to be with. Essentially, with Adolin, all her desires (for herself, for her brothers, for saving the world) all line up together. It's hard to say what motivated her to come up with the King's Boon plan since the only specific clue to her thoughts on it (that I remember seeing) is during their first date when Adolin talks about recent events involving Sadeas and it's there Shallan feels a burning desire to help Adolin - in a later chapter (after the duel) we see a general thought about needing to impress and excite Adolin but it's not clear if that influenced her previously.

 

The thing that seemed to be most for her own benefit was deciding not to join Dalinar's clerk army and taking a massive leap of faith with Sebarial instead. She did consider more tactical benefits too but it all largely boiled down to having freedom, even if it did require her to work more.

 

I'll also note that at the end of tWoK she decided that the threat from the Parshmen/Voidbringers was more important than her brothers. At the time, I was surprised she did that but she's consistently kept doing it during WoR.

 

Summary: generally, the more I've dug into Shallan's character and story the more realistic I find her to be. She does have flaws, makes mistakes and does things that annoy me etc but for whatever reason (I have some ideas) she often doesn't get the benefit of the doubt while other characters do. But, maybe I'm wrong to defend her so much. Maybe you can change my mind like with Adolin.

 

I wonder where he gets his inspiration... or how he manages to craft such plausible characters. Whether or not he reads the Myers-Briggs, he has created a wide array of characters acting consistently with there alleged type. Does he ask other people? Characters such as Adolin are obviously very far from him, so I can't help wondering  how he does it.

 

There's lots of ways to research this I guess. Lots of authors do "people watching" I think.

 

 

[maxal]

You make a good case for Shallan! This is a very good text    I will admit I do not read Shallan as easily as I read Adolin

 

I agree she is not comfortable with her lies, however honesty never seems to be her first tactic. I often feel the times she is honest are the times she decides it would be the best strategy to move forward. She opens-up to Dalinar because she need his support to continue her work. She is straight-honest with Sebrarial because lying served her no purpose. She initially lied to Jasnah to carry on her plans and only told the truth after she was left with no choice. She went on with Tyn because it allowed her to achieved her goal of reaching the Scattered Plains all the while learning a few tricks. Although, in this specific case, she had little choice to do so.

 

I agree her inner conflict is about truth or lies: when to be honest with others and more importantly with herself and when to lie. So far, she has walk this very thin line and I do think she will (and has already made) mistakes. Upon encountering new situations, Shallan first impulse often is to present a different version of herself, a cover up. The lies, I believe, are a protection mechanism, a shield to keep herself from harm. However, whether she still ends up trusting people, I sometimes feel she is not trusting the right ones.

 

Also, I sometimes get the impression Shallan is considering the people surrounding them as palms to help her achieve her end goal... Protecting her family, finding Urithiru, finishing Jasnah's studies....... To get there she had to con Sebrarial (which turned out being a brilliant ideas), to be honest with Dalinar and to blatantly lie to Adolin (albeit she has good reasons, I do not fault her, but there is cost to this kind of behavior)... However, all the time she is doing this, she fails to acknowledge she may be hurting others feelings or others may genuinely like her and feel hurt by her games. Overall, she never once considered the emotional impact her tactics may have on the opposite party as they are just means to get to reach her goal. I am not saying she does not care, she would if she were aware of this particular aspect.

 

I will thus revise my earlier assessment. She must be a T-type. A F-type would have been more conscious on how her cover-up and tactics would be received by the opposing parties. As a T-type, she acted out of logic and rationally reasoned out how to solve her problems. Her low F made her fail to realize how those lies interacted with each others and how they created a mess likely to splash in her face. As for her relationship with Adolin, she seems to care about him, but her T-type fails to recognize his F-type will genuinely feel hurt she did not care enough about him to tell him the truth...

[kari-no-sugata]

Background note: I don't remember Brandon talking in depth his original plans for WoR but I'm pretty sure that his original plan was for Jasnah and Shallan to get to the Shattered Plains without much incident. The problem he had with that is Shallan wouldn't grow much in such a setting and so he changed his plan. I don't think he's ever said why Shallan wouldn't grow but it seems obvious enough to me - Shallan would defer too much to Jasnah and wouldn't leave her comfort zone enough. She'd grow, just not quickly enough - she'd be more like Jasnah's side-kick. You could say that Shallan respects Jasnah too much (at the beginning of WoR) and it's not until she sees Jasnah's vulnerable side that she starts seeing Jasnah as human again, which she needs to otherwise she wouldn't be able to believe she could continue Jasnah's work. In a sense, Shallan inherits Jasnah's will and determination. Net result is Shallan pushes herself way outside her comfort zone for pretty much the entire book.
 

You make a good case for Shallan! This is a very good text    I will admit I do not read Shallan as easily as I read Adolin

Thanks, I'm enjoying this conversation too
 
I enjoy reading all the characters, even if they all annoy me at times. I do find Shallan the most fun to think about but actually, the two chapters I find the most annoying are both Shallan-centric ones. It's enjoyable to watch characters overcome their flaws so I don't mind them having annoying aspects so long as it doesn't become a trope.
 

I will thus revise my earlier assessment. She must be a T-type. A F-type would have been more conscious on how her cover-up and tactics would be received by the opposing parties. As a T-type, she acted out of logic and rationally reasoned out how to solve her problems. Her low F made her fail to realize how those lies interacted with each others and how they created a mess likely to splash in her face. As for her relationship with Adolin, she seems to care about him, but her T-type fails to recognize his F-type will genuinely feel hurt she did not care enough about him to tell him the truth...

 
Does this mean you think she's much more like Jasnah then? I don't see that. However, what I do see is that when Shallan is feeling under a lot of pressure or particularly out of her depth she starts over-thinking things - you could say she becomes more INTJ-like under stress (extreme case being the "coldness of clarity" mode). I think she also picked up some "bad habits" from her mentors (Jasnah/Tyn) and I suspect she'll "apprentice" to Navani in book 3, which probably won't help her with her strengths but will help her with some of her weaknesses. Hopefully Pattern will help her with her strengths.
 
Down in the chasms, Shallan tells Kaladin at one point "I hate logic. Always have.” This isn't an isolated comment but it is the strongest such one. Navani's first comment on reading Shallan's notes is "you think like an artist". When surprised, Shallan tends to react with emotion - for example, when re-meeting Wit her reaction is to hug and thank him.

 

Shallan is definitely smart and can think logically... but I don't think she finds it that natural. I would say that she is good at connecting with people at an emotional level but not logically - which is why she gets easily irate at textbook authors. Jasnah seems to be the opposite - perfectly at home in considering and analysing other academic viewpoints and methods: she'd get annoyed with poor logic more than she would at the author.
 
I would like to respond to all your points but I'm a bit short on time this week and instead I'd like to dig a bit deeper into one particular chapter where I suspect we have quite different viewpoints: Shallan and Adolin's "first date", chapter 49 (Watching the World Transform). I find this chapter very amusing to read... even on the 10th+ re-read.
 
Right before the date gets going we see Shallan wondering if she even has any "feminine wiles": Shallan is quite serious about this though from my perspective it's quite an ironic line and intentionally so (she doesn't realise how naturally good she is). She also considers using Lightweaving to make herself more attractive but rejects it - she rejects the idea from more from a logical perspective (it would cause long-term practical difficulties) but there is also a hint that she'd rather Adolin accept her for what she is, though I don't think she's yet started connecting much with Adolin emotionally yet.
 
Some more background: Shallan has been trying to discuss Jasnah's work with Navani but not succeeded (so far). This is Shallan's preferred choice but since it's going nowhere it makes it much more important that her relationship with Adolin works out. She's definitely thinking strategically. She's also both and very determined and very nervous - she's way out of her depth here and knows from both Jasnah and Tyn that Adolin has way more experience than her with romantic relationships. She doesn't yet have much of an emotional bond with Adolin but unlike Shallan's early relationship with Jasnah, Shallan would much prefer to have a long-term relationship from the outset and she doesn't need much from Adolin himself apart from the same (the things she needs from him are more indirect).
 
On to the chapter itself. I suspect that in the line below, the word "control" in particular is setting off alarm-bells with you:

She couldn’t afford to come off as weak. She had to control the situation, could not act like a sycophant, and she couldn’t—

 
But I find this bit combined with the next to be comedic - her intents above have been slightly exaggerated for comedic effect since the next bit is:

Adolin saw her and closed the portfolio. He stood up, grinning.
—oh, storms. That smile.

 
And I'm laughing and also thinking "Poor Shallan, trying so hard, thinking so hard... and all Adolin has to do is smile at her and she melts into a puddle"
 

Shallan was supposed to get this man to court her? Storms! She’d felt far more capable when trying to scam the leader of the Ghostbloods. Act refined, Shallan told herself. Adolin has moved with the elite, and has been in relationships with the most sophisticated ladies of the world. He will expect that from you.

 
Shallan is close to panic here. She's desperately trying to be what she thinks she should be, but struggling. Note that in her next line she calls him "Brightlord" rather than rather than "Adolin".
 

She sputtered, looking eastward, across the cracked landscape. Act poised! she thought. Elegant! Instead, a primal part of her wanted to scramble for a hole and hide.

 
Note her instinctive emotional response... and then trying to clamp down on that.
 

“You look pale.”
“It’s natural.”
“Because you’re Veden?”
“Because I’m always at the edge of panic these days. Oh, is that our wine?”
Poised, she reminded herself yet again. She pointedly did not look eastward.

 
Though Shallan's "I’m always at the edge of panic these days" feels a bit exaggerated for comedic effect, I feel that this works because it's more like the truth getting out accidentally (I find this exchange to be hilarious). Shallan is still trying hard to be something she's not.
 

He smelled it, sipped it, then nodded in satisfaction and dismissed the servant with a parting smile. He watched the woman’s backside as she retreated.

 
Adolin's making mistakes too. Fortunately for him, Shallan finds being clingy to be "nauseating" (due to her father's approach).
 

Stop it, she told herself, smiling at Adolin. She needed to make sure this meeting went well for him. Get him to talk about himself. That was one piece of advice she remembered from books.

 
Still trying to act based on her research and trying to do what she thinks is expected of her.
 

Wait, Shallan thought, did that just . . . work? She was supposed to be acting feminine and delicate, not asking men what it’s like to have to defecate in battle.

 
Note that she wasn't expecting that to work in advance. It was unplanned... but it worked. Natural Shallan beat unnatural Shallan. This is arguably the main turning point of the chapter, though it's not like Shallan immediately abandons everything she thought about in advance. I think the next bit about chasmfiends was unplanned or mostly unplanned.
 

“I’m not telling you to stop your hunts,” Shallan said, blushing. This probably wasn’t the point she should be making. Urithiru and the parshmen, that was the immediate problem. Still, she needed to gain Adolin’s trust. If she could provide useful help regarding the chasmfiends, perhaps he’d listen when she approached him with something even more revolutionary.

 
Note that she wants to earn his trust. She wants to be helpful. There's logical long-term thinking attached too but she's certainly not thinking of this being a one-sided con.
 

His smile broadened. Storms, those eyes . . .
Careful, Shallan told herself. Careful! Kabsal took you in easily. Don’t repeat that.

 
Previous not-quite-relationship didn't help.
 

She didn’t know what to make of it all, though she gathered that Adolin was telling her of it because he knew the rumors in camp. She’d heard of Dalinar’s fits, of course, and had an inkling of what Sadeas had done. When Adolin mentioned that his father wanted the Knights Radiant to return, Shallan felt a chill. She glanced about for Pattern—he’d be close—but couldn’t find him.

 
I still don't really get why Shallan feels a "chill". The only thing that makes sense to me is that her problem with authority figures (ie Dalinar) is quite strong and she's not warmed up to Dalinar at all yet. Shame, since if she'd asked Adolin more about this she might have realised that they were both working on similar things.
 

She found herself wishing desperately to do something, anything, to help. She felt herself melting at the intense concern in those eyes, the passion.
Remember Kabsal . . . she reminded herself again.

 
Note that she's attempting to rein in her natural instincts - her logical side is holding her back. This is also the last reference to Kabsal in the entire book. After this, she stops worrying about what happened with Kabsal.
 
After this, Shallan does clearly explain what she fears about the Parshmen but she decides not to press it due to Adolin's reaction. Adolin seems to forget about this topic though, or at least I don't remember him thinking about it. She doesn't tell Adolin about Urithiru though she sent Navani some of Jasnah's notes about it at some point.
 

She nodded absently, then realized she’d been staring at him. She was going to kiss those lips of his someday. She let herself imagine it.
And, Ash’s eyes . . . he had a very friendly way about him. She hadn’t expected that in someone so highborn. She’d never actually met anyone of his rank before coming to the Shattered Plains, but all the men she knew near his level had been stiff and even angry.
Not Adolin. Storms, but being with him was something else she could get very, very used to.

Shallan has to be rather patient about getting to kiss his lips She's a lot more relaxed here and enjoying herself.
 

She felt that, if her teachers had been watching, both would have been disappointed at her conversation with Adolin. Tyn would have wanted her to manipulate the prince more; Jasnah would have wanted Shallan to be more poised, more in control of her tongue.
It seemed that Adolin liked her anyway. That made her want to cheer.

As best as I can tell, Shallan stops using Jasnah or Tyn as a reference for interacting with Adolin after this (and doesn't worry about what happened with Kabsal anymore). Shallan's approach going into the date is very different afterwards - her planning was mostly wasted and if anything a hindrance. She seems to largely just relax and be herself with Adolin after this.

 

But... and I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm just guessing... but I suspect you don't like the "manipulate the prince more" bit. Which is fair enough because "more" implies there was at least some deliberate manipulation. However, my reading of the text is that any manipulation was very mild and not damaging. She could have trusted Adolin more for sure and could have told him more - the bigger problem is with what she doesn't do or say.

 

We don't actually see that much Shallan/Adolin interaction from Shallan's PoV for the rest of the book.

 

However, I think there are a few things worth mentioning. Firstly in chapter 53 from Adolin's PoV:

“I forgot to burn a prayer,” she said, “so I stopped to do so. I caught most of the fight, though.” She hesitated right before him, seeming awkward for a moment. Adolin shared that awkwardness.

 

Adolin takes her hesitation to be shyness... but as we find out a bit later, Shallan was actually lying here - she was actually late because she was checking Amaram's compound. Personally, I think this is a very minor lie - I don't blame her for keeping her activities with the Ghostbloods hidden and something like this is very unlikely to cause problems later. Still... Shallan regrets having to lie - which is why she feels awkward.

 

And in chapter 77:

“You said you’d ridden before.”

“Ponies,” she said, “on my father’s estates. Around in circles . . . All right, from that expression, I’m led to believe I’m being an idiot. When I get sore, I’ll go ride with Sebarial.”

 

Note that she doesn't need a logical explanation as to why she would get saddle-sore - she trusts Adolin and his opinion enough (and can read it from his expression) that she doesn't need one.

 

And when Shallan's Radiant side is found out by Adolin:
 

You too?” he said.

“Um . . .” She bit her lip. “Yeah. Sorry.”

 

She immediately feels guilty and apologises.

 

and near the end:

“I will not let this be awkward, Adolin.”

 

Before kissing him. It feels to me that this was what Shallan was most afraid of if she had told Adolin about being a Radiant - that it would change their relationship. She seemed content with how things were.

 

Anyway... that's it for now - might be a several days before I post again.

[maxal]

This is frustrating. I had a wall of text type-in until I accidentally deleted it :angry: :angry:

 

Background note: I don't remember Brandon talking in depth his original plans for WoR but I'm pretty sure that his original plan was for Jasnah and Shallan to get to the Shattered Plains without much incident. The problem he had with that is Shallan wouldn't grow much in such a setting and so he changed his plan. I don't think he's ever said why Shallan wouldn't grow but it seems obvious enough to me - Shallan would defer too much to Jasnah and wouldn't leave her comfort zone enough. She'd grow, just not quickly enough - she'd be more like Jasnah's side-kick. You could say that Shallan respects Jasnah too much (at the beginning of WoR) and it's not until she sees Jasnah's vulnerable side that she starts seeing Jasnah as human again, which she needs to otherwise she wouldn't be able to believe she could continue Jasnah's work. In a sense, Shallan inherits Jasnah's will and determination. Net result is Shallan pushes herself way outside her comfort zone for pretty much the entire book.

 

I do agree the story of Shallan arriving to the Shattered Plains together with Jasnah would have made for a much different story. Shallan needed to be on her own, away from any mentoring figure, in order to grow as a person. As long as she has someone she identify as her intellectual superior or simply as more experienced than her in the matter, she automatically defers to them. While being with Jasnah, she tried to emulate Jasnah. While being with Tyn, she tried to emulate Tyn. This strongly points towards a S-type as opposed to a N-type we have assumed so far.

 

She is so hard to place hold! :angry:

 

I for one was pleasantly surprised by her in early WoR as I thought it would take longer for her to emerge from her shell. I was glad to see her take command of her destiny and not take no for an answer.

 

 

Thanks, I'm enjoying this conversation too
 
I enjoy reading all the characters, even if they all annoy me at times. I do find Shallan the most fun to think about but actually, the two chapters I find the most annoying are both Shallan-centric ones. It's enjoyable to watch characters overcome their flaws so I don't mind them having annoying aspects so long as it doesn't become a trope.

 

I love character talk

 

I enjoy most character providing there is sufficient material to flesh them out which is why I do not care much for secondary or tertiary or interlude characters as I feel there not enough to discuss about. I agree a good character needs to have flaws enabling room enough to grow. Static characters or ones taking forever to move passe their issues (I am looking at you Rand Al'Thor ) are not as interesting, to me. I do not mind tropes as long as the author is able to include a unique twist to his character in order to make them endearing. 

 

 

Does this mean you think she's much more like Jasnah then? I don't see that. However, what I do see is that when Shallan is feeling under a lot of pressure or particularly out of her depth she starts over-thinking things - you could say she becomes more INTJ-like under stress (extreme case being the "coldness of clarity" mode). I think she also picked up some "bad habits" from her mentors (Jasnah/Tyn) and I suspect she'll "apprentice" to Navani in book 3, which probably won't help her with her strengths but will help her with some of her weaknesses. Hopefully Pattern will help her with her strengths.

 

I have been given this MBTI personality test a whole lot of thoughts lately. I was even so bold as to have my co-worked take the test so we could compare. As an engineer, I must say quite many of them tested INTJ.

 

As a result, I do not think Shallan is one. INTJ can be horribly frustrating to talk to for a ESFJ like me  (no offense meant INTJ friends) Whatever argument I may bring forward to support my claim will automatically get trash down, even those I consider solid as rock as they spurred from technical essay or valid experimentation. Trust an INTJ to destroy this so-called expert you may bring forward by either discrediting its research or appearing incredibly doubtful about the evidence. You will never convince an INTJ of anything unless they end up sharing your thoughts. INTJ will sometimes come across as condescending and can, at times, be utterly clueless as to how their argument may be badly interpreted by more feeling oriented people. Their insistence in pressing their point and their systematic attack of any counter-argument may make their F-type interlocutors feel personally attacked or even hurt at times. However, they are amongst the most bright people I have ever met. They never take anything for granted until they researched it themselves and they certainly do not care about whatever "vibe" I get on the subject at end

 

I did not see any INTJ/ESFJ typical interaction within Shallan/Adolin's first date. I therefore doubt Shallan would count as one, whereas Jasnah is a perfect example.

 

As for the T-type/F-type, we must take into consideration not everyone is heavily polarized. Jasnah is a very strong T, I'd wager whereas Shallan dwindles more in the middle. It is clear she is not a strong F-type like Adolin, but she could be a lesser one. I'd say she oscillates between a low T and a low F. Where should she be exactly, I am unsure. I previously put her as a T-type, but now I am not so sure

 

I am running out of time to type more tonight, so I'll come back later. I especially love your dissection of the Shallan/Adolin's first date. I am absolutely crazy about this chapter, so I am very keen to talk some more about it

[AndrewStirlingMacDonald]

kari and maxal, I've really appreciated the discussion you've been having about Shallan. The INTJ-when-she's-around-Jasnah thing is actually something that I take as an indication of her being an INFJ - it is a pretty common INFJ trait to take on the qualities and emotions of the people around them, reflecting their feelings back towards them.

[Aleksiel]

I doubt that there is an intentional connection, but it could make for an interesting study anyway... Though it will be a little tough because we will end up with half of the types that will be assigned to negative shards.

 

Let's start with the two sides of Harmony. I feel like Preservation must needs be an SJ. Who loves preservation more than SJs? And I feel like Harmony ought to have all eight types, so Ruin will have to be an NP. Hmmm... I'm going to take an initial stab and say ESFJ is Preservation, and INTP is Ruin. And, come to think of it, most INTPs that I know would not particularly mind being associated with ruin.

 

Endowment sounds like an SP to me. Maybe an ESTP?

Dominion sounds like it could be either an ENFJ or ENTJ.

 

Odium is probably an INFJ, always bitter because it thinks that nobody understands it.

 

I'm going to say Cultivation is an INTJ.

So here are my best guesses, so far:

Ruin: INTP

Preservation: ESFJ

Endowment: ESTP

Dominion: ENFJ

Odium: INFJ

Cultivation: INTJ

Devotion: INFP

Honor: ESTJ

 

Cultivation turned her back on humanity after Honor's death, that's too emotional to be INTJ. I'd chose it for Ruin over Cultivation.

[kari-no-sugata]

(runs in...)
 

This is frustrating. I had a wall of text type-in until I accidentally deleted it :angry: :angry:

 
Ouch. See this post (and other replies) about auto-saved posts and restoring them:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22712-phoenix-signing-121/#entry219451

 

kari and maxal, I've really appreciated the discussion you've been having about Shallan. The INTJ-when-she's-around-Jasnah thing is actually something that I take as an indication of her being an INFJ - it is a pretty common INFJ trait to take on the qualities and emotions of the people around them, reflecting their feelings back towards them.

Glad you're enjoying it. I've been doing some background reading on MBTI and I'm increasingly convinced that Shallan has to be INFJ.

 

Two notes from my background reading on MBTI: it's more about underlying natural preference rather than skill or strength. So a "left handed person" who only trains to be right-handed would be considered right-handed in a job/skills test but left-handed in a MBTI-style test. Other is that relative importance of the 4 MBTI traits for decision making is different for different types, as this chart makes clear:

https://zombiesruineverything.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/basics3.png

 

For bit of fun I took the personality test from that site pretending to be Shallan and this is what I got:

INFJ

Introvert(78%)  iNtuitive(31%)  Feeling(62%)  Judging(28%)
You have strong preference of Introversion over Extraversion (78%)
You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (31%)
You have distinct preference of Feeling over Thinking (62%)
You have moderate preference of Judging over Perceiving (28%)

 

Wonder how the spren would rate...

 

(...runs out)

[maxal]

Down in the chasms, Shallan tells Kaladin at one point "I hate logic. Always have.” This isn't an isolated comment but it is the strongest such one. Navani's first comment on reading Shallan's notes is "you think like an artist". When surprised, Shallan tends to react with emotion - for example, when re-meeting Wit her reaction is to hug and thank him.

 

Shallan is definitely smart and can think logically... but I don't think she finds it that natural. I would say that she is good at connecting with people at an emotional level but not logically - which is why she gets easily irate at textbook authors. Jasnah seems to be the opposite - perfectly at home in considering and analysing other academic viewpoints and methods: she'd get annoyed with poor logic more than she would at the author.

 

 

Based on this section, I am tempted to say she may be a P-type as opposed to a J-type. P-type are not as organized and have a more frazzled approach to higher learning, which may be akin to Shallan artistic tendencies or the way she sprawls her paper on her bed searching for a "pattern"...

This last bit you are describing are typical sounds very typical of F-type. It would also be wrong to think F-type are incapable of logic as once the feeler function is off, they can be as logical as anyone, but when it kicks in, they get irrational. I do not think we have seen Shallan being overcome by her feelings and act irrationally... I think there is more to be a F-type than to simply openly display emotions... I mean, not all T-type are cold calculators and not all F-type are emotional nut balls. However, if I look how my F-type works, it is actually rather strange. Apart from getting emotionally attached to things or ideas, my F function enables me to associate "vibes" or "feelings" to knowledge. When in doubt about something, when all theory have fell, I noticed how often I have relied on what felt "right", which often proved to be the right answer... How is it possible? I do think my learning process may be tied to my emotional response which in turns brings feeling into the technical stuff thus enabling to sense "the right answer" in the advent memory fells... I do agree this is a highly subjective point of vue tightly linked to my own personal experience, but if we could find an example of Shallan doing the same, it would bring another argument to her classification as a F-type.

Bringing on both Navani and Jasnah make an interesting point. Both are very strong T and very strong INTJ. They do not have much use of their F function, worst they probably fail to recognize its existence. It makes them appear insensitive to other people emotional dilemma such as when Navani promptly ridicule Adolin's pre-dueling ritual.

 

Criticizing textbook and methodology is a strong N-type prerogative, which we all agree Jasnah is. Has Shallan exhibit the same traits? I am still not convinced she is a N-type. N-type are highly critical of information as no source of information ever is infallible.  On the other hand, S-type put a high value to textbooks and personal experience. They will defer to those they consider experts, which Shallan does, to a certain degree.

 

 

I would like to respond to all your points but I'm a bit short on time this week and instead I'd like to dig a bit deeper into one particular chapter where I suspect we have quite different viewpoints: Shallan and Adolin's "first date", chapter 49 (Watching the World Transform). I find this chapter very amusing to read... even on the 10th+ re-read.

 

I laugh myself out the first time I read this chapter and the second and the third... This chapter is very enlightening for both Shallan and Adolin's personality, pity we did not get some of his POV while in there.

 

 

 Right before the date gets going we see Shallan wondering if she even has any "feminine wiles": Shallan is quite serious about this though from my perspective it's quite an ironic line and intentionally so (she doesn't realise how naturally good she is). She also considers using Lightweaving to make herself more attractive but rejects it - she rejects the idea from more from a logical perspective (it would cause long-term practical difficulties) but there is also a hint that she'd rather Adolin accept her for what she is, though I don't think she's yet started connecting much with Adolin emotionally yet.

 

I am glad to read someone else bringing forward this extract. I recalled mentioning it in another threat. I interpreted this scene as Shallan being your average anxious teenage girl. She is 17 years old and she is about to go on a date with an older, more experienced young man she finds extremely handsome. She therefore acts as any 17 years old would have: by being insecure about her physical appearance and wondering if Adolin will find her attractive. She thinks on how he may like her better if her hair were done differently or if she was more curvaceous, but gives up the idea of altering herself.

 

I agree she seemed ill at east to start the relationship on a lie pertaining her physical appearance. This is a strong point on her favor. For my part, I love the parallel I could make with pretty much any teenage girl in there. We are were insecure about her self at one point and we all wish we were more something.

 

 

 

On to the chapter itself. I suspect that in the line below, the word "control" in particular is setting off alarm-bells with you:

 

But I find this bit combined with the next to be comedic - her intents above have been slightly exaggerated for comedic effect since the next bit is:

 

And I'm laughing and also thinking "Poor Shallan, trying so hard, thinking so hard... and all Adolin has to do is smile at her and she melts into a puddle"

 

 

Shallan is close to panic here. She's desperately trying to be what she thinks she should be, but struggling. Note that in her next line she calls him "Brightlord" rather than rather than "Adolin".

 

 

Note her instinctive emotional response... and then trying to clamp down on that.

 

 

Though Shallan's "I’m always at the edge of panic these days" feels a bit exaggerated for comedic effect, I feel that this works because it's more like the truth getting out accidentally (I find this exchange to be hilarious). Shallan is still trying hard to be something she's not.

 

 

Adolin's making mistakes too. Fortunately for him, Shallan finds being clingy to be "nauseating" (due to her father's approach).

 

 

Still trying to act based on her research and trying to do what she thinks is expected of her.

 

 

Note that she wasn't expecting that to work in advance. It was unplanned... but it worked. Natural Shallan beat unnatural Shallan. This is arguably the main turning point of the chapter, though it's not like Shallan immediately abandons everything she thought about in advance. I think the next bit about chasmfiends was unplanned or mostly unplanned.

 

Shallan's first impulse is to try to be the women she believes Adolin would expect as opposed to just be herself. Fortunately for her, Adolin has been doing exactly the same (and is one of the reasons, I believe, he never managed to connect with any other woman before). Both are rehearsing pre-recorded boring speech. Adolin seemed on the verge to fall asleep as he narrated, once again, the story of how he was left to fend for himself on a plateau. Shallan tried to be Jasnah. She tries to act like Jasnah, to think like Jasnah because, for her, Jasnah is the ultimate Alethi woman and must therefore be what Adolin desires.

 

Adolin ogles one girl (most likely by boredom as I do think he has been previously bored by his precious vapid courtships), but by the end of their date, he ogles no one else than Shallan. By the end of the book, his eyes are firmly set on her and no one else.

 

Shallan untangled the boring predictable date by being herself. She ask the unspeakable and the unexpected, though I sometimes wonder if thoughts of defecating in battle as not spurred from Adolin very childish opening joke about Sebrarial's flatulence These two deserve each other

 

I agree Shallan managed to be herself during the date. She was very genuine, however we must note all her efforts have been geared towards making Adolin talk. And talk he did. He nearly spilled his guts on the table regarding the Sadeas incident. However, Shallan did not offer any personal tip bits following this emotional off load. In fact, she absolutely did not share one thing about herself. Nothing. Niet. Nada. Not even inconsequential things such as her favorite color or her favorite food.... 

 

 

Note that she wants to earn his trust. She wants to be helpful. There's logical long-term thinking attached too but she's certainly not thinking of this being a one-sided con.

 

 

Previous not-quite-relationship didn't help.

 

 

I still don't really get why Shallan feels a "chill". The only thing that makes sense to me is that her problem with authority figures (ie Dalinar) is quite strong and she's not warmed up to Dalinar at all yet. Shame, since if she'd asked Adolin more about this she might have realised that they were both working on similar things.

 

 

Note that she's attempting to rein in her natural instincts - her logical side is holding her back. This is also the last reference to Kabsal in the entire book. After this, she stops worrying about what happened with Kabsal.

 

After this, Shallan does clearly explain what she fears about the Parshmen but she decides not to press it due to Adolin's reaction. Adolin seems to forget about this topic though, or at least I don't remember him thinking about it. She doesn't tell Adolin about Urithiru though she sent Navani some of Jasnah's notes about it at some point.

 

Shallan has to be rather patient about getting to kiss his lips She's a lot more relaxed here and enjoying herself.

 

I agree she does try to be helpful. I do believe she is sincerely moved by Adolin's confidence. She was genuinely touched by his passion, his sorrow and his anger at having seen his men and friends being uselessly slaughtered while not being offered any means to avenge them.

 

As for the rest, again, she does not share about herself, which is an I-type indication. She shares about Jasnah's studies and theories, she offers her genuine thoughts on the discussion at end, she shows some of her art, but she does not speak a word about who she is.

 

As for the kissing part, we could wonder if Shallan genuinely wanted to passionately kiss Adolin later on or if it was a ploy to make herself irresistible? The first time they kiss is after the chasm scene, when Adolin rushes in and holds her close. She thinks holding is not enough and therefore decides to bluntly kiss him. He tries to object as I believe unmarried Alethi do not kiss this way, but ends up giving in. At this point in time, it is obvious they are physically attracted one to another, although poor Adolin is crushing on someone he barely knows. Despite the obvious passion involved by the kiss, we could wonder how much of Shallan drown in the moment and how much calculated a kiss was the best way to entice the young prince.

 

 

But... and I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm just guessing... but I suspect you don't like the "manipulate the prince more" bit. Which is fair enough because "more" implies there was at least some deliberate manipulation. However, my reading of the text is that any manipulation was very mild and not damaging. She could have trusted Adolin more for sure and could have told him more - the bigger problem is with what she doesn't do or say.

 

We don't actually see that much Shallan/Adolin interaction from Shallan's PoV for the rest of the book.

 

I do not think she is manipulating him, not directly. She is enticing him, she is making him fall for her by being everything the average lighteye woman is not.

 

I revise my earlier assessment. She is not outright lying to him, but she is not sharing with him. I do believe that once Adolin finds out she shared with Kaladin, he will feel hurt and betrayed. He loves someone he does not know, although I do think Shallan's feeling towards Adolin are genuine, she still have to open-up to him, to trust him, which she hasn't. So far, she has trusted Kaladin, Dalinar and Navani, but not Adolin, never Adolin. Is it because she is too emotionally involved with him? Because she feels she has much to lose?

 

 

 

 

However, I think there are a few things worth mentioning. Firstly in chapter 53 from Adolin's PoV:

 

Adolin takes her hesitation to be shyness... but as we find out a bit later, Shallan was actually lying here - she was actually late because she was checking Amaram's compound. Personally, I think this is a very minor lie - I don't blame her for keeping her activities with the Ghostbloods hidden and something like this is very unlikely to cause problems later. Still... Shallan regrets having to lie - which is why she feels awkward.

 

And in chapter 77:

 

Note that she doesn't need a logical explanation as to why she would get saddle-sore - she trusts Adolin and his opinion enough (and can read it from his expression) that she doesn't need one.

 

And when Shallan's Radiant side is found out by Adolin:

 

 

She immediately feels guilty and apologises.

 

and near the end:

 

Before kissing him. It feels to me that this was what Shallan was most afraid of if she had told Adolin about being a Radiant - that it would change their relationship. She seemed content with how things were.

 

Anyway... that's it for now - might be a several days before I post again.

 

I agree she is not a one-side con. It may be she truly wants to be with Adolin, but so far, her strategy have been geared towards the fact she may lose him, he may go see elsewhere and she therefore forces intimacy to keep him close. Now this is my interpretation and it is up for grab but I do feel Alethi do not court the way she courts Adolin. Let's not forget they kept married very young, before 20 years of age, for the most part. I do believe (and this is pure speculation on my part) young Alethi courtships pretty much summarizes itself in walking hand in hand, having dinner, calling on each other and promptly get married. I do also believe clues are leading us to believe Veden may be more "open". Therefore, despite his many courtships, Adolin is only more experience in the sense he has gone to many dates, but he has done little else.

 

I do think Adolin picked up she was not honest with him during the dueling scene, but decide not give it any heed. I do get Shallan was uncomfortable: she wants to be honest with him, but at the same time, she fears to. Therefore, she is making the grave mistake not to trust him and it will come to bite her back once he finds out.

 

Of course Shallan is afraid! So far, she has refused to share any personal information with Adolin. She has agreed to let him see her as she was, but she still has not agreed to tell him who she truly was. Him learning she is a Radiant was probably a hard blow! Let's not forget she told Dalinar days before Adolin found out and not by her own volition. She is afraid. She does not want things to change, so she resort to what she has been doing so far: kissing him passionately and he responds positively to this.

 

The real test will how will she respond to his upcoming ordeal and will she ever share with him... I dunno what this says about her personality else than she is introverted, a bit frazzled, feeling but at the same time thinking and not as N as Jasnah....?

[kari-no-sugata]

Wall of text is back!

 

Based on this section, I am tempted to say she may be a P-type as opposed to a J-type. P-type are not as organized and have a more frazzled approach to higher learning, which may be akin to Shallan artistic tendencies or the way she sprawls her paper on her bed searching for a "pattern"...

 

Apparently it's not uncommon for INFJs to have a "messy desk" - I think it's because they care more about the quality of the output more than the process.
 

This last bit you are describing are typical sounds very typical of F-type. It would also be wrong to think F-type are incapable of logic as once the feeler function is off, they can be as logical as anyone, but when it kicks in, they get irrational. I do not think we have seen Shallan being overcome by her feelings and act irrationally... I think there is more to be a F-type than to simply openly display emotions... I mean, not all T-type are cold calculators and not all F-type are emotional nut balls. However, if I look how my F-type works, it is actually rather strange. Apart from getting emotionally attached to things or ideas, my F function enables me to associate "vibes" or "feelings" to knowledge. When in doubt about something, when all theory have fell, I noticed how often I have relied on what felt "right", which often proved to be the right answer... How is it possible? I do think my learning process may be tied to my emotional response which in turns brings feeling into the technical stuff thus enabling to sense "the right answer" in the advent memory fells... I do agree this is a highly subjective point of vue tightly linked to my own personal experience, but if we could find an example of Shallan doing the same, it would bring another argument to her classification as a F-type.

In RL, I think many people undervalue "intuition"... or maybe I should say that they don't realise how much they're already using it unconsciously and that they could use it a lot more. What you describe above sounds just fine to me

With regards to Shallan using intuition, here's some examples I can think of: figuring out that Jasnah's Soulcaster was a fake and confronting her about it (though it's debatable just how much was intuition and how much was reasoning, but she believed in her answer much more strongly than would be explained by pure logic). In WoR: there's when she guesses that Dalinar would respond well to blunt honesty within a few minutes of meeting him, there's when she guesses that infusing Stormlight into Pattern would help with the problem of keeping her illusions up remotely, that the Ghostbloods were watching the tree from the same building she was in, when she felt a strong threat from Mraize and hid in an illusionary boulder for hours, there's how she figured out the location Stormseat, the location of the Oathgate and how to use it. Also, on the day she killed her father she went to get the poison before she even knew what her father had done - she had a really bad premonition.

With regards to your general thoughts on F-type (not just from this post), according to MBTI theory whether someone is P or J has a big impact on F (or T) since it affects their dominant cognitive function - if Shallan is INFJ then her dominant function would be "introverted intuition" while if she was INFP then her dominant function would be "introverted feeling". This may explain why you find that Shallan's way of feeling is different to your own or that she feels a bit INTJ-like since INTJ and INFJ are more similar than INFP and INFJ, because INFJ and INTJ both use "introverted intuition" as their dominant function.

Regarding Shallan acting irrationally, here's some examples I can think of: early in tWoK when dealing with the book seller, later in tWoK when she saw the Cryptics in her drawings she really panics the second time. The second time Shallan meets with Jasnah, she has to sit down and calm herself after Jasnah speaks harshly to her. In WoR when confronting the assassins who killed Jasnah (particularly over refusing to use her Shardblade), when confronting Kaladin when she meets him for the second time at the Pinnacle, somewhat during the first time she goes outside as Veil and somewhat during her time down in the chasms (eg when she had to create a cubby). It could also be argued that her overwhelming desire to keep her freedom lead to a rather irrational choice - hoping that Sebarial would take her in without ever having met him.

 

Bringing on both Navani and Jasnah make an interesting point. Both are very strong T and very strong INTJ. They do not have much use of their F function, worst they probably fail to recognize its existence. It makes them appear insensitive to other people emotional dilemma such as when Navani promptly ridicule Adolin's pre-dueling ritual.

Criticizing textbook and methodology is a strong N-type prerogative, which we all agree Jasnah is. Has Shallan exhibit the same traits? I am still not convinced she is a N-type. N-type are highly critical of information as no source of information ever is infallible. On the other hand, S-type put a high value to textbooks and personal experience. They will defer to those they consider experts, which Shallan does, to a certain degree.

For criticising books, big example would be in tWoK when Shallan is complaining about the "assuredness movement" and jokes how she'd like to like to stab it in the back. There's also a section where she notes that scholars would often be good at prose but not art or vice-versa or if they were good at both their logic/science would be terrible. In WoR there's a part where she complains about historians being a bunch of liars and basically not producing work that was actually useful.

With regards to her deferring to experts, I think this is tricky to analyse because this is one area where her rapid growth is changing her. I think she expected "real" scholars to be far more capable than her (since she's basically self-taught) and is slowly coming to realise that this is not the case. She's becoming more confident in herself and late in WoR she encounters Inadara who is supposed to be a great scholar but Shallan doesn't seem impressed. I think we'll still see her deferring to experts but that her bar for "expert" has gone up a lot.

 

I laugh myself out the first time I read this chapter and the second and the third... This chapter is very enlightening for both Shallan and Adolin's personality, pity we did not get some of his POV while in there.

 

I would liked to have seen a similar chapter from Adolin's POV too but I suspect the main reason we did not get this is that there would not be enough tension in the scene if there's not enough at stake for Adolin - which there isn't for much of WoR but this could change a lot in the next book. After the date we see a bit from Adolin but the main tension is all due to Sadeas. He also spends a few hours personally looking for a present for Shallan - sweet.

 

I am glad to read someone else bringing forward this extract. I recalled mentioning it in another threat. I interpreted this scene as Shallan being your average anxious teenage girl. She is 17 years old and she is about to go on a date with an older, more experienced young man she finds extremely handsome. She therefore acts as any 17 years old would have: by being insecure about her physical appearance and wondering if Adolin will find her attractive. She thinks on how he may like her better if her hair were done differently or if she was more curvaceous, but gives up the idea of altering herself.

I sort of agree and disagree. For a normal modern teenage girl from Earth, what would be at stake on a first date? Personal pride, opportunity for new experiences and maybe some other things depending upon their situation? What about a teenage girl from an upper class background in a more medieval period and in a semi-arranged marriage? Well, the same but in addition the reputation and future of the family could be at stake. In Shallan's case it's "all of the above" and in addition it could impact her goal to help prevent the return of the Voidbringers... but on the other hand she only has to answer to herself and all the additional pressures are her own since nobody is forcing them upon her. So in a sense it's the same - the interesting thing about their arranged marriage is that there's no pressure on them from others, only from themselves.

Though on another level it's quite different - growing up, Shallan never expected to have a choice in who she would marry. Clearly she had allowed herself to dream a bit but she also had nobody to discuss such things with, really. She doesn't even have friends.
 

I agree Shallan managed to be herself during the date. She was very genuine, however we must note all her efforts have been geared towards making Adolin talk. And talk he did. He nearly spilled his guts on the table regarding the Sadeas incident. However, Shallan did not offer any personal tip bits following this emotional off load. In fact, she absolutely did not share one thing about herself. Nothing. Niet. Nada. Not even inconsequential things such as her favorite color or her favorite food....

I don't think even us readers know her favourite colour or food

Well, she's fond of jam but she doesn't describe it as her favourite. Not that Adolin asked her much either - I also don't remember him asking previous girlfriends. No rush though. At least Shallan gave some indications of the sorts of things that interest her... though I suspect Adolin would struggle to find a chasmfiend plushie as a present

 

I do not think she is manipulating him, not directly. She is enticing him, she is making him fall for her by being everything the average lighteye woman is not.

I revise my earlier assessment. She is not outright lying to him, but she is not sharing with him. I do believe that once Adolin finds out she shared with Kaladin, he will feel hurt and betrayed. He loves someone he does not know, although I do think Shallan's feeling towards Adolin are genuine, she still have to open-up to him, to trust him, which she hasn't. So far, she has trusted Kaladin, Dalinar and Navani, but not Adolin, never Adolin. Is it because she is too emotionally involved with him? Because she feels she has much to lose?

Thank you for revising your assessment - yay for improving understanding through dialogue

Regarding your questions, without more thoughts from Shallan it's hard to say. My general thinking of why their relationship works is that they're both giving each other something they "need". They can both relax around each other and be themselves (for the most part). Considering Shallan's background, she's known very few nice people and has had a lot of stress in her life so until Adolin she's had precious few options for relaxing and all those options were solitary. She has enough challenges in her life - she doesn't need more. I'm sure a theoretical relationship with Kaladin would be much more of a "challenge" but it would leave Shallan quite stressed out. For Adolin, I feel he can also relax with her - his other girlfriends all seemed quite "high maintenance" in comparison. I suspect he feels that Shallan is not so much of a challenge but a stream of interesting experiences. He already seems to be growing as a result.

But, their relationship is still in its early stages... and as they get closer there would be new challenges.

I think Shallan does have a number of quiet fears around their relationship. Simplest one is that events could conspire to nullify the betrothal. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Shallan feels tainted by her past and fears revealing it to someone like Adolin - she seems to consider herself broken and only partially sane. She is definitely holding back still and if their relationship did crumble due to a lack of trust and communication I think it's much more likely that Shallan would be largely to blame. So why could she trust Kaladin with some of her past? Likely because she felt he would understand, based on his own experiences - Shallan would probably not have spoken of her past if Kaladin hadn't spoken first. This is also why I think that Adolin murdering Sadeas will not necessarily cause long term difficulties and if anything could actually lead them to becoming much closer and genuinely opening up to each other - because Shallan could then have real hope that Adolin would accept and understand her terrible past.

I think Shallan is currently too passive with relationships. I'm sure she'll improve with experience. Also, I see her as someone who will naturally improve the more time she spends with someone.

One interesting observation: when Adolin is duelling the 4 Shardbearers, Shallan decides to send out Pattern to help. But, she doesn't tell Pattern to help Adolin but Renarin. Why? Because she's noticed that Adolin is trying to do something even though she's not entirely sure what or why but guesses it involves Renarin. So instead of simply protecting Adolin she tries to protect the things he cares about.

 

I agree she is not a one-side con. It may be she truly wants to be with Adolin, but so far, her strategy have been geared towards the fact she may lose him, he may go see elsewhere and she therefore forces intimacy to keep him close. Now this is my interpretation and it is up for grab but I do feel Alethi do not court the way she courts Adolin. Let's not forget they kept married very young, before 20 years of age, for the most part. I do believe (and this is pure speculation on my part) young Alethi courtships pretty much summarizes itself in walking hand in hand, having dinner, calling on each other and promptly get married. I do also believe clues are leading us to believe Veden may be more "open". Therefore, despite his many courtships, Adolin is only more experience in the sense he has gone to many dates, but he has done little else.

There does appear to be multiple lines of evidence that the Alethi are more prudish/reserved than Vedens, at least in public. I have no idea if Shallan accurately knows what is considered "normal" in Alethi society and I have no idea how her actions compares to courting in Vedenar - we don't see much of Balat and Eylita's courtship. I do think it's clear enough that Shallan has a personal desire to be intimate with Adolin but whether her goals are fuelling that or simply removing any limiters is harder to say - either way the combination is stronger.

I agree with your assessment of Adolin's previous relationships.

 

I do think Adolin picked up she was not honest with him during the dueling scene, but decide not give it any heed. I do get Shallan was uncomfortable: she wants to be honest with him, but at the same time, she fears to. Therefore, she is making the grave mistake not to trust him and it will come to bite her back once he finds out.

Hmm. The way I read it, Adolin picked up that Shallan was nervous/uncomfortable but misinterpreted the cause due to lack of information.

 

The real test will how will she respond to his upcoming ordeal and will she ever share with him... I dunno what this says about her personality else than she is introverted, a bit frazzled, feeling but at the same time thinking and not as N as Jasnah....?

Adolin's upcoming ordeal... indeed.

Maybe I'm too optimistic (in terms of how it will affect them) but this is how I'm currently envisioning events: I see no reason why Shallan wouldn't want to know why it happened - I can easily see her being initially shocked and withdrawing... and then getting up in the middle of the night to go find Adolin and get some answers simply because she can't calm down otherwise. It seems unlikely that she would be prevented by others from asking. So, would Adolin be willing to explain in detail? We've already seen that he can be quite open and liable to talk but this could be very hard for him. However, I don't see Shallan taking no for an answer and she seems capable of picking up lies. Either way I expect her to get to the truth... and I expect her to sympathise with Adolin and also see him as being more real due to his flaws. It certainly won't be news to her that Adolin hates Sadeas... just the degree and what Adolin was prepared to do.

I have no idea if we'll get it but what I'm hoping for is that Shallan goes from shocked to understanding relatively quickly. (There's certainly other options depending on how events unfold of course). Instead of there being serious long term conflict between Adolin and Shallan... I expect it to be more Dalinar vs Shallan over Adolin's actions (I think that would be much more interesting at least).

 

Not that I'm expecting everything between Shallan and Adolin to be all blossoms and cake either - I expect he'll at least be under house arrest until things are sorted. Plenty of time for him to get to know his Edgedancer Shardblade better

 

[AndrewStirlingMacDonald]

I think that this might just be my favorite forum. Even though we don't really speculate about the future turns of events in the series, I feel like I've gotten more insights into the characters - their pasts, presents and possibly futures - here than anywhere else. Thank-you to maxal, kari-no-sugata and everyone else who is participating in these fascinating and insightful conversations!

[maxal]

Apparently it's not uncommon for INFJs to have a "messy desk" - I think it's because they care more about the quality of the output more than the process.

 

Hmmm... This is interesting. One of my INTJ colleague has the messiest desk ever. I swear, it is nearly (or worst even) as bad as mine which is covered in papers, coffee stains, empty coffee boxes, utensils, pens, a calculator and dust :ph34r: Another INTJ colleague has a relatively messy desk so I dunno... perhaps J having clean desk is overrated?????

 

 

In RL, I think many people undervalue "intuition"... or maybe I should say that they don't realise how much they're already using it unconsciously and that they could use it a lot more. What you describe above sounds just fine to me

With regards to Shallan using intuition, here's some examples I can think of: figuring out that Jasnah's Soulcaster was a fake and confronting her about it (though it's debatable just how much was intuition and how much was reasoning, but she believed in her answer much more strongly than would be explained by pure logic). In WoR: there's when she guesses that Dalinar would respond well to blunt honesty within a few minutes of meeting him, there's when she guesses that infusing Stormlight into Pattern would help with the problem of keeping her illusions up remotely, that the Ghostbloods were watching the tree from the same building she was in, when she felt a strong threat from Mraize and hid in an illusionary boulder for hours, there's how she figured out the location Stormseat, the location of the Oathgate and how to use it. Also, on the day she killed her father she went to get the poison before she even knew what her father had done - she had a really bad premonition.

 

I agree about the first sentence. People usually have a hard time taking "intuition" or "feelings" or "vibes" as valid arguments, but they do sprout from events at ends. Feelers associate feelings to events, knowledge and decode emotions in others, which in turns help making light on their true intentions as the mouth can say anything, but the heart never lies.

 

Good examples about Shallan, this is exactly the kind of stuff we needed. The soulcaster is a tricky one and could have been triggered by both, however the fact she talked about confidently is the sign of feeler. Feelers who adopts an idea tend to defend it with passion. Their eyes will light up, their hands will sprawl around as they passionately and convincingly try to sway the crowd to their opinion. A feeler does not need strong arguments to back him down, it only needs the conviction it is right or to feel strongly about the subject at end. My INTJ colleague told be yesterday how passionately I was talking about some very useless dumb subject. I had not noticed I was doing it, but apparently I was. Shallan was doing just the same: she feels she is right, therefore she will turn earth and seas over to make herself heard.

 

Reading Dalinar is a sign of F function. Thinking about using Pattern seems more like an N function than a F function related event. The Ghostblood events illustrate F function, but the Oathgate discovery is something else, I believe. Shallan has proven to be quite proficient in puzzle solving. The key to the Oathgate's location was a gigantic puzzle, one she needed both her bond granted memory and her mind to resolve. Once she had all the pieces, she simply needed to put them in order. Other scholars lacked her specific abilities, hence their failure.

 

 

With regards to your general thoughts on F-type (not just from this post), according to MBTI theory whether someone is P or J has a big impact on F (or T) since it affects their dominant cognitive function - if Shallan is INFJ then her dominant function would be "introverted intuition" while if she was INFP then her dominant function would be "introverted feeling". This may explain why you find that Shallan's way of feeling is different to your own or that she feels a bit INTJ-like since INTJ and INFJ are more similar than INFP and INFJ, because INFJ and INTJ both use "introverted intuition" as their dominant function.

 

This is interesting... I have not looked into the dominant functions. Therefore, a INFP has feeling as their main function whereas INTJ and INFJ have intuition as their main function... This would explain why I have so much trouble reading Shallan as a F type, but I am starting to believe this may be the case. You have brought some very good examples.

 

 

Regarding Shallan acting irrationally, here's some examples I can think of: early in tWoK when dealing with the book seller, later in tWoK when she saw the Cryptics in her drawings she really panics the second time. The second time Shallan meets with Jasnah, she has to sit down and calm herself after Jasnah speaks harshly to her. In WoR when confronting the assassins who killed Jasnah (particularly over refusing to use her Shardblade), when confronting Kaladin when she meets him for the second time at the Pinnacle, somewhat during the first time she goes outside as Veil and somewhat during her time down in the chasms (eg when she had to create a cubby). It could also be argued that her overwhelming desire to keep her freedom lead to a rather irrational choice - hoping that Sebarial would take her in without ever having met him.

 

 

Interesting examples. She has shown anxiety towards new stressful situations, but is it necessarily a sign of F-function? In the case of irrationality triggered by a strong F-type, I was more thinking of someone who holds to an opinion even in the adverse of hostility simply because its feelings tell him to do so. Or someone who refuses to seek a logical answer to a problem because emotions won't be sway by rationality. One of the best textbook example of this kind of behavior comes from Adolin. On the scene where he tries to throw his Blade, but fails each time. He admits having spend the night up, wearing his Plate and chewing some root to keep himself awake. He does not want to remove his Plate because he is afraid the Assassin will come back and he was not worth much against him without it. He then says the "rational" part of him told him he could not wear his Plate all the time, but he refused to be rational. He did not want to be rational. He could not have spelled it better. Emotions were too strong, therefore any logical, rational solution got expelled to make way for the flow which he channeled in throwing his Blade away.

 

I do not believe we have seem Shallan do the same... or not that I can recall. Picking Sebrarial as her protector was a bold move, but not an irrational one. She knew Sebrarial was one of the less influential Highprince and moreover, a neutral one. Having little power himself, he had less chance of refusing her and him being neutral did not put her on the bad side of anyone. A clever move I'd say more than an inconsiderate one. I do believe her decision was triggered by her new found desire for freedom as well as Tyn's influence telling her Adolin would never fall for someone clingy.

 

 

For criticising books, big example would be in tWoK when Shallan is complaining about the "assuredness movement" and jokes how she'd like to like to stab it in the back. There's also a section where she notes that scholars would often be good at prose but not art or vice-versa or if they were good at both their logic/science would be terrible. In WoR there's a part where she complains about historians being a bunch of liars and basically not producing work that was actually useful.

With regards to her deferring to experts, I think this is tricky to analyse because this is one area where her rapid growth is changing her. I think she expected "real" scholars to be far more capable than her (since she's basically self-taught) and is slowly coming to realise that this is not the case. She's becoming more confident in herself and late in WoR she encounters Inadara who is supposed to be a great scholar but Shallan doesn't seem impressed. I think we'll still see her deferring to experts but that her bar for "expert" has gone up a lot.

 

Good points about her making open critics of textbooks. It emphasis the fact she may be a N-type. INFJ sounds more and more plausible. I like your analysis on how she defers to experts due to her lack of self-confidence more than a natural tendency to do so. However, I am afraid she may push it too far and become too confident, refusing to hear advices from trustful more knowledgeable sources. She seems like a person that dwells within the extremes: her traumatism has launched her into extreme mutism, then to extreme wise-cracking, then to extreme introverted, then to extreme low self-confidence, then to extreme confidence.... She makes me think of pendulum. She may have that in common with Adolin who alternates between being cheerful and excited to hurt to angry in the scope of a few lines.

 

 

 

I would liked to have seen a similar chapter from Adolin's POV too but I suspect the main reason we did not get this is that there would not be enough tension in the scene if there's not enough at stake for Adolin - which there isn't for much of WoR but this could change a lot in the next book. After the date we see a bit from Adolin but the main tension is all due to Sadeas. He also spends a few hours personally looking for a present for Shallan - sweet.

 

I do hope to get his POV in his future encounters with Shallan... I was dying to know his thoughts when they were kissing... I recall the scene where he walks back to camp on foot, searching for a gifts and ends up back home, late in the night with aching feet. Everyone else was sleeping. Very sweet. As far as we know, he did not buy anything...

 

 

I sort of agree and disagree. For a normal modern teenage girl from Earth, what would be at stake on a first date? Personal pride, opportunity for new experiences and maybe some other things depending upon their situation? What about a teenage girl from an upper class background in a more medieval period and in a semi-arranged marriage? Well, the same but in addition the reputation and future of the family could be at stake. In Shallan's case it's "all of the above" and in addition it could impact her goal to help prevent the return of the Voidbringers... but on the other hand she only has to answer to herself and all the additional pressures are her own since nobody is forcing them upon her. So in a sense it's the same - the interesting thing about their arranged marriage is that there's no pressure on them from others, only from themselves.

Though on another level it's quite different - growing up, Shallan never expected to have a choice in who she would marry. Clearly she had allowed herself to dream a bit but she also had nobody to discuss such things with, really. She doesn't even have friends.

 

 

I think no matter the situation, teenagers have a strong desire to please, to be accepted. Teenagers usually put a lot an emphasis into how they are being perceived and the scene where Shallan angst about her look made me think of that. In that moment, I do believe she forgot what was at stakes and let herself be a silly teenage girl. She was about to go on a date with Adolin Kohlin. THE Adolin Kohlin. Althekar most handsome and favored bachelor. Remember how excited she was when Jasnah told her about the casual? Part of this excitement was triggered by the fact she was seeing some silly childhood dream of marrying a prince... which little girl never dreamed of being Cinderella, at least once?

 

I disagree there is no pressure. Shallan has tremendous pressure to make it work as she sees marrying Adolin as the only way to rescue her family. On his side, Adolin has had pressure for years to marry and more time passed, more stressed he gets over the prospect to the point he is relief to finally have someone take care of it for him, not that he would ever admit it. Both want this union to work, for different reasons, but the stakes are higher for Shallan.

 

Wasn't she friends with Balat's wife? Didn't they talk of princes and whom they would love to marry? However, it is true she does not seem to have any close friends.

 

 

 

I don't think even us readers know her favourite colour or food

Well, she's fond of jam but she doesn't describe it as her favourite. Not that Adolin asked her much either - I also don't remember him asking previous girlfriends. No rush though. At least Shallan gave some indications of the sorts of things that interest her... though I suspect Adolin would struggle to find a chasmfiend plushie as a present

 

Nah but we know Adolin's favorite: chicken

 

Adolin still has a lot to learn on how to be a good boyfriend. He is lacking deep, serious relationships in his life. His best friend is his brother, whom he grew up with and reads him easily. He yet have to make the effort to truly open up to someone, about his more inner feelings, though he shared more with Shallan than with anyone else and on the first date. It is true she did tell him about her drawing and her studies... I guess I was hoping for more personal stuff, but it is true Adolin did not partake those either.

 

I wouldn't it put it pass Adolin to actually try.

 

 

Thank you for revising your assessment - yay for improving understanding through dialogue

Regarding your questions, without more thoughts from Shallan it's hard to say. My general thinking of why their relationship works is that they're both giving each other something they "need". They can both relax around each other and be themselves (for the most part). Considering Shallan's background, she's known very few nice people and has had a lot of stress in her life so until Adolin she's had precious few options for relaxing and all those options were solitary. She has enough challenges in her life - she doesn't need more. I'm sure a theoretical relationship with Kaladin would be much more of a "challenge" but it would leave Shallan quite stressed out. For Adolin, I feel he can also relax with her - his other girlfriends all seemed quite "high maintenance" in comparison. I suspect he feels that Shallan is not so much of a challenge but a stream of interesting experiences. He already seems to be growing as a result.

But, their relationship is still in its early stages... and as they get closer there would be new challenges.

 

Thanks. I am quite unsettled as to my understanding of Shallan. Our discussion is helping me put her actions into perspective, which is more enlightening than the "Shallan lied to Adolin but was frank with Kaladin, this is a sign" discussions I often see. The truth appears to be more complex.

 

As for Shallan's background, I did not expect her to share her background with Adolin: too much at stakes. She would never admit having murdered her parents to a man she hardly knows and whom she hopes to marry in order to save her family. With Kaladin, there was no pressure. They were unsure they would even survived, so Kaladin's trust gave her the confidence she needed to let go a huge amount of pressure. However, I do not see it as a sign of compatibility. A relationship with Kaladin would be hard to maintain and frustrating as they do seem to get on each others nerves rather easily. With Adolin, she is just Shallan. It seems all pressure evaporates when she is with him. Look at the last scene, when she is desperately trying to open the Oathgate. She suddenly sees Adolin walking in, bloodied, injured and leaning on a bridgeman. Her immediate, spontaneous reaction is to rush to him, hold him close and forget about everything else. All thoughts evaporated from her mind as she just sees him. You do not react this way with someone you do not care for.

 

Adolin's previous girlfriends were vapid (according to Dalinar) and self-centered. None seemed to have cared about him as a person. Being an ESFJ, finding people who cares matter. A lot. It is not surprising he never dwell a long time with any of them. Shallan has been giving him something he has been craving for: authenticity and care. Not only does she express concern towards him, she acts upon it. She tries to help him, she enticed him, but at the same time, she is independent. Moreover, she takes the lead in their relationship, she sets the dates, she drags him along, which he loves because he does not have to do it.

 

 

I think Shallan does have a number of quiet fears around their relationship. Simplest one is that events could conspire to nullify the betrothal. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Shallan feels tainted by her past and fears revealing it to someone like Adolin - she seems to consider herself broken and only partially sane. She is definitely holding back still and if their relationship did crumble due to a lack of trust and communication I think it's much more likely that Shallan would be largely to blame. So why could she trust Kaladin with some of her past? Likely because she felt he would understand, based on his own experiences - Shallan would probably not have spoken of her past if Kaladin hadn't spoken first. This is also why I think that Adolin murdering Sadeas will not necessarily cause long term difficulties and if anything could actually lead them to becoming much closer and genuinely opening up to each other - because Shallan could then have real hope that Adolin would accept and understand her terrible past.

I think Shallan is currently too passive with relationships. I'm sure she'll improve with experience. Also, I see her as someone who will naturally improve the more time she spends with someone.

One interesting observation: when Adolin is duelling the 4 Shardbearers, Shallan decides to send out Pattern to help. But, she doesn't tell Pattern to help Adolin but Renarin. Why? Because she's noticed that Adolin is trying to do something even though she's not entirely sure what or why but guesses it involves Renarin. So instead of simply protecting Adolin she tries to protect the things he cares about.

 

I disagree Shallan would be the only one to blame if the relationship fails. It is true she has not been open with him and her lack of openness towards him may cost them. I understand why she did not told him the truth, however, the mistake she made was not telling him before Dalinar/Navani/Kaladin. She did not trust him for that, but she trusted them. This will hurt Adolin when he'll find out. Adolin may not be broken, but his track record in terms of relationships is awful. They keep failing and he does not understand why, most of the time. How else is he suppose to react upon finding out Shallan has been holding back so much but to think she wishes the relationship to end? Isn't how all of the others failed? Girl started to become distant... At to that the fact he now thinks himself inferior to her... As a result, he may thus become distant and withdraw.

 

I do believe Adolin would understand Shallan and not be repelled, but she is not there yet. I do think she would not react badly upon hearing what he did, but she'll be sad, for him.  However, her passiveness will drove him away to nurse his broken heart in silence, at first. The question would then be will she go and try to salvage the union? Or will he? Will Adolin finally understand he needs not to give up so easily on a girl and work for her or will he be too affected by the events to muster that thought?

 

Yes, the duel. She did sense something was wrong. Sebrarial was calling Adolin a fool for refusing to yield, but she perceived he was not at liberty to do so. She gathered it had to do with Renarin so she sent Pattern. She knew if anything happened to Renarin, Adolin would be more than devastated: he'd be demolished.

 

 

 

There does appear to be multiple lines of evidence that the Alethi are more prudish/reserved than Vedens, at least in public. I have no idea if Shallan accurately knows what is considered "normal" in Alethi society and I have no idea how her actions compares to courting in Vedenar - we don't see much of Balat and Eylita's courtship. I do think it's clear enough that Shallan has a personal desire to be intimate with Adolin but whether her goals are fuelling that or simply removing any limiters is harder to say - either way the combination is stronger.

I agree with your assessment of Adolin's previous relationships.

 

I think Shallan has no idea on how to behave. At first, she tries the Jasnah way, but upon seeing Adolin liked her as she was, she gave up. She is just Shallan and as long as Adolin likes it, she'll stay as is. As for her desire to be intimate, I do believe it is there. After the chasm event, he hugs her, which she qualifies as the "most physically forward he has ever been" (a hug, come on Adolin ), but quickly decided it was NOT enough, so she kissed him. It was spontaneous. He immediately responded by kissing back and the moment lasted for several minutes. You do not fake a several minutes passionate kiss. Whether it was part of her plan to keep him interested or not, she did feel it. And so did he. Next time they kiss was on the Plains. She kisses him, out there, in front of everyone and he blushes like an adorable idiot Alethi do not kiss in public. Ever. Final kiss was in Urithiuru. He was admiring her, thinking her some goddess when she decided she would not let this be weird: she kisses him. He resisted, but not long. Another passionate kiss which only ended because Adolin was aching.

 

I do believe the first kiss was because she wanted to kiss him. The second one was to entice him and to make him swoon over her. The third one was to signify her desire (and reassure him) to keep up with the betrothal despite recent events.

 

Everyone thinks Adolin is very experienced due to his numerous courtships, but if you look at it: he's had about 50 first dates. He has done the first date gig so often, he hardly seem to care anymore, until Shallan ask him the poop question that is. In other words, he keeps hitting the ball, but gets strike out before he can make it to first base. He has no idea how it feels to reach second, let alone third base.

 

 

Adolin's upcoming ordeal... indeed.

Maybe I'm too optimistic (in terms of how it will affect them) but this is how I'm currently envisioning events: I see no reason why Shallan wouldn't want to know why it happened - I can easily see her being initially shocked and withdrawing... and then getting up in the middle of the night to go find Adolin and get some answers simply because she can't calm down otherwise. It seems unlikely that she would be prevented by others from asking. So, would Adolin be willing to explain in detail? We've already seen that he can be quite open and liable to talk but this could be very hard for him. However, I don't see Shallan taking no for an answer and she seems capable of picking up lies. Either way I expect her to get to the truth... and I expect her to sympathise with Adolin and also see him as being more real due to his flaws. It certainly won't be news to her that Adolin hates Sadeas... just the degree and what Adolin was prepared to do.

I have no idea if we'll get it but what I'm hoping for is that Shallan goes from shocked to understanding relatively quickly. (There's certainly other options depending on how events unfold of course). Instead of there being serious long term conflict between Adolin and Shallan... I expect it to be more Dalinar vs Shallan over Adolin's actions (I think that would be much more interesting at least).

 

Not that I'm expecting everything between Shallan and Adolin to be all blossoms and cake either - I expect he'll at least be under house arrest until things are sorted. Plenty of time for him to get to know his Edgedancer Shardblade better

 

My thinking is Shallan will find out about Sadeas after she had drifted apart from Adolin. After an initial reaction of shock, she'll be shaken to know he has been keeping that inside.. All of a sudden, pieces of the puzzle will fall in place and she'll understand why he has behaved the way he had. I do see her siding with him and confronting Dalinar. The legitimate moral ground justifying Adolin's actions? I think Shallan will be the one to craft Adolin's defense and manage to keep him away from the worst, but his reputation will be ruined. His father will be angry, if he does not disown him.

 

Shallan going in Adolin's room in the middle of the night.... :ph34r: Now you've got me on board But of course, they will simply kiss... dark room, night clothes (which makes me wonder what kind of clothes Rosharian wear to go to bed at night  ) Won't happen. Not with Brandon

 

I actually want to see the Dalinar/Adolin conflict, though I think it will be more Dalinar raging over Adolin and Adolin being completely defeated because he knows he did bad.

 

I expect Adolin to lose his Edgedancer Blade over the ordeal with Sadeas, but he get it back by re-kinking the bond with it. In other words, he'll claim her back. His love and dedication may be the "something more" needed. The sprens were betrayed, perhaps they need someone willing to risk it all for them to come back? He'll then be able to grow flowers (or moss) for Shallan :wub:

[maxal]

I think that this might just be my favorite forum. Even though we don't really speculate about the future turns of events in the series, I feel like I've gotten more insights into the characters - their pasts, presents and possibly futures - here than anywhere else. Thank-you to maxal, kari-no-sugata and everyone else who is participating in these fascinating and insightful conversations!

 

I love character talk

[kari-no-sugata]

Hmmm... This is interesting. One of my INTJ colleague has the messiest desk ever. I swear, it is nearly (or worst even) as bad as mine which is covered in papers, coffee stains, empty coffee boxes, utensils, pens, a calculator and dust :ph34r: Another INTJ colleague has a relatively messy desk so I dunno... perhaps J having clean desk is overrated?????

My work desk is quite clean but I think that's more because I rarely need anything else. My flat is a horrible mess most of the time...

 

Reading Dalinar is a sign of F function. Thinking about using Pattern seems more like an N function than a F function related event. The Ghostblood events illustrate F function, but the Oathgate discovery is something else, I believe. Shallan has proven to be quite proficient in puzzle solving. The key to the Oathgate's location was a gigantic puzzle, one she needed both her bond granted memory and her mind to resolve. Once she had all the pieces, she simply needed to put them in order. Other scholars lacked her specific abilities, hence their failure.

For the Oathgate, I was in particular thinking about the following aspects: guessing that Stormseat is in the middle of the Shattered Plains - even Pattern thought she was wrong... but as she said, "use a little imagination" Another thing was deciding to draw out the entire Shattered Plains on a huge canvas - she was sure she needed to do it but had no idea how it would be useful in advance. There's some other things though it's hard to determine how much was good observation and logical reasoning and how much is intuition.

 

This is interesting... I have not looked into the dominant functions. Therefore, a INFP has feeling as their main function whereas INTJ and INFJ have intuition as their main function... This would explain why I have so much trouble reading Shallan as a F type, but I am starting to believe this may be the case. You have brought some very good examples.

Thank you. Glad I could help.

 

Interesting examples. She has shown anxiety towards new stressful situations, but is it necessarily a sign of F-function? In the case of irrationality triggered by a strong F-type, I was more thinking of someone who holds to an opinion even in the adverse of hostility simply because its feelings tell him to do so. Or someone who refuses to seek a logical answer to a problem because emotions won't be sway by rationality. One of the best textbook example of this kind of behavior comes from Adolin. On the scene where he tries to throw his Blade, but fails each time. He admits having spend the night up, wearing his Plate and chewing some root to keep himself awake. He does not want to remove his Plate because he is afraid the Assassin will come back and he was not worth much against him without it. He then says the "rational" part of him told him he could not wear his Plate all the time, but he refused to be rational. He did not want to be rational. He could not have spelled it better. Emotions were too strong, therefore any logical, rational solution got expelled to make way for the flow which he channeled in throwing his Blade away.

Hmm. That's certainly a very clear and strong example... Well, for Shallan the scene that sprung to mind was this:

“I have to see it,” Shallan whispered to him. “We’re so close.”

“Are you insane?”

“Probably.” She continued toward the beast.

Deliberately risking your life to be able to see a chasmfiend - good enough...?

 

Good points about her making open critics of textbooks. It emphasis the fact she may be a N-type. INFJ sounds more and more plausible. I like your analysis on how she defers to experts due to her lack of self-confidence more than a natural tendency to do so. However, I am afraid she may push it too far and become too confident, refusing to hear advices from trustful more knowledgeable sources. She seems like a person that dwells within the extremes: her traumatism has launched her into extreme mutism, then to extreme wise-cracking, then to extreme introverted, then to extreme low self-confidence, then to extreme confidence.... She makes me think of pendulum. She may have that in common with Adolin who alternates between being cheerful and excited to hurt to angry in the scope of a few lines.

Personally, while I would like her to be more confident in herself and I mostly enjoy it when she takes bold action, I hope she doesn't lose her tendency for self-depreciation or otherwise not taking herself too seriously. She'd become an entirely different character to me and I'd probably find her to be less interesting. I'm hoping for something more like Mat from The Wheel of Time or Moist from Discworld (ie becomes more mature and complex but never quite grow up either)

Pendulum huh? Hmm. I have three mental images for Shallan and I'm not quite sure which to go with. One is a jack-in-the-box (she's spent most of her life being pressed down and now is bouncing back, surprising everyone). The second is a runaway train. The third is an explosion in slow-motion. I tend to go with the first one.

 

I think no matter the situation, teenagers have a strong desire to please, to be accepted. Teenagers usually put a lot an emphasis into how they are being perceived and the scene where Shallan angst about her look made me think of that. In that moment, I do believe she forgot what was at stakes and let herself be a silly teenage girl. She was about to go on a date with Adolin Kohlin. THE Adolin Kohlin. Althekar most handsome and favored bachelor. Remember how excited she was when Jasnah told her about the casual? Part of this excitement was triggered by the fact she was seeing some silly childhood dream of marrying a prince... which little girl never dreamed of being Cinderella, at least once?

Shallan often seems to be thinking of several things at the same time and Adolin definitely brings out the teenage girl in her too... but when Shallan considers the possibility of using illusions to enhance herself she does think ahead to (possible) married life - do you consider that to be typical of teenagers from Roshar?

For Shallan's reaction to the causal, when she did ponder what she knew of Adolin she recalled daydreams of meeting a prince not marrying one. Her joy at the causal was much more because it was a simple but effective solution to her problems. Her personal feelings towards Adolin in advance were more muted:

When Jasnah had first explained the causal to her, Shallan’s interest had been completely abstract. Marriage into a powerful Alethi house? Allies for her brothers? Legitimacy, and a way to continue working with Jasnah for the salvation of the world? These had seemed like wonderful things.

Looking at Adolin’s grin, however, she didn’t consider any of those advantages. Her pains of speaking of Jasnah didn’t fade completely, but she found it much easier to ignore them when looking at him. She found herself blushing.

I think Shallan was mentally prepared for Adolin to be rather different and was being entirely honest when she describes Adolin as "a wonderful surprise".

 

I disagree there is no pressure. Shallan has tremendous pressure to make it work as she sees marrying Adolin as the only way to rescue her family. On his side, Adolin has had pressure for years to marry and more time passed, more stressed he gets over the prospect to the point he is relief to finally have someone take care of it for him, not that he would ever admit it. Both want this union to work, for different reasons, but the stakes are higher for Shallan.

 

I previously said "the interesting thing about their arranged marriage is that there's no pressure on them from others, only from themselves" and what you say above is the sort of things I was thinking about for "from themselves". Looks like we agree

 

Wasn't she friends with Balat's wife? Didn't they talk of princes and whom they would love to marry? However, it is true she does not seem to have any close friends.

 

Hmm, I don't remember any indication that they talked of such things or that they were close. Shallan had only been off the Davar estate 3 times before she set off to find Jasnah (probably all occasions like Middlefest) so she and Eylita wouldn't have been able to meet up much at all - I don't think Eylita was able to come to the Davar estate much until Lin Davar died (Lin didn't approve of Eylita at all and Eylita's parents didn't like Lin at all). I don't know how much they wrote to each other but I don't remember any indication that they talked about anything other than Balat.

 

Thanks. I am quite unsettled as to my understanding of Shallan. Our discussion is helping me put her actions into perspective, which is more enlightening than the "Shallan lied to Adolin but was frank with Kaladin, this is a sign" discussions I often see. The truth appears to be more complex.

 

I'm not quite settled on my understand of Shallan myself and I've re-read her scenes more than any other character. I'm not sure where Brandon is going to go with Shallan and Kaladin long-term but my current impression of Kaladin is that right now, he'd likely make a poor boyfriend - he's rather too married to his job and to a soldier's way of thinking. Even his men complain he's a workaholic. It also looks likely that he's going to be away for much of book 3.

(Side note: I hope I'm not coming across as overly negative on Kaladin here. He's done incredible things and he certainly deserves happiness. However, he also has scars. Unless he's incredibly lucky I think he'll have real trouble with long term romance any time soon - not that I'm good at it myself and I have fewer excuses. I'm not saying he has no chance with Shallan either or doesn't deserve a chance)

As I see it, Kaladin needed to get to know Shallan better to get over his prejudice of Lighteyes. At the start of WoR he's extremely distrustful of all Lighteyes and makes only a moderate exception for Dalinar. Though he generally becomes more negative as the book progressed he added Renarin and then Adolin to his list of exceptions. Until the chasm scenes he'd only viewed Shallan as a "typical Lighteyes". I used to wonder why Brandon wrote the whole "boots" scene, since it seemed unnecessary but after thinking about it for a while I think it was mostly so that Kaladin would give himself an easy excuse to only view Shallan as a typical Lighteyes - which means that when they have their chasm scenes it has a bigger impact on him as he starts to re-evaluate her. One major effect of the chasm scenes for Kaladin was to be forced to realise that his default way of viewing Lighteyes was wrong and that he was mistaken in his assumptions.

On a side note, I'm not sure if it's rare or typical of Lightweavers but Shallan ends up being a sort-of mental healer for a lot of people, Kaladin included. Too many to be a co-incidence. Particularly when how suitable INFJs are considered to be for such tasks.

 

Adolin's previous girlfriends were vapid (according to Dalinar) and self-centered. None seemed to have cared about him as a person. Being an ESFJ, finding people who cares matter. A lot. It is not surprising he never dwell a long time with any of them. Shallan has been giving him something he has been craving for: authenticity and care. Not only does she express concern towards him, she acts upon it. She tries to help him, she enticed him, but at the same time, she is independent. Moreover, she takes the lead in their relationship, she sets the dates, she drags him along, which he loves because he does not have to do it.

Thinking a bit more on Adolin's previous girlfriends and the Alethi in general: it's clear that the Alethi Highprinces are far from shining examples of humanity. This is not a new thing either. There doesn't seem to be anything indicating that the younger generation are any better. In addition to the examples already raised, early in tWoK Jasnah notes that Shallan didn't throw a tantrum - sounds like she's come to expect such reactions from prospective wards! I remember Dalinar being a bit surprised that Jasnah took on a new ward since Jasnah often claimed to not have the time. Seems like it's more like that they were not worth her time - if she really didn't have time or inclination she would reject them much earlier.

Jasnah and Adolin are evaluating quite different attributes among the same group of people but they're both looking for quality and both are finding the options to be lacking. Interesting thought...

 

Shallan going in Adolin's room in the middle of the night.... :ph34r: Now you've got me on board But of course, they will simply kiss... dark room, night clothes (which makes me wonder what kind of clothes Rosharian wear to go to bed at night ) Won't happen. Not with Brandon

That's not where I was going with that scenario at all, honest! I agree Brandon wouldn't go there either. However, I'll give you an interesting scenario to picture that could actually happen: exact setting doesn't matter but lets say that Shallan gets a chance to make "any" request of Adolin... and what she asks for is... for Adolin to pose nude for her - all in the name of art, honest!

I'm thinking something a bit like the sketch scene in the film Titanic, but with the genders reversed. I think Adolin could agree to such a request though would be quite embarrassed initially, while Shallan would get increasingly flustered. I'm also envisioning Shallan being unable to forget for a week afterwards and having a tendency to blush at odd moments, leading everyone else to jump to the wrong conclusion...

 

My thinking is Shallan will find out about Sadeas after she had drifted apart from Adolin. After an initial reaction of shock, she'll be shaken to know he has been keeping that inside.. All of a sudden, pieces of the puzzle will fall in place and she'll understand why he has behaved the way he had. I do see her siding with him and confronting Dalinar. The legitimate moral ground justifying Adolin's actions? I think Shallan will be the one to craft Adolin's defense and manage to keep him away from the worst, but his reputation will be ruined. His father will be angry, if he does not disown him.

I actually want to see the Dalinar/Adolin conflict, though I think it will be more Dalinar raging over Adolin and Adolin being completely defeated because he knows he did bad.

I expect Adolin to lose his Edgedancer Blade over the ordeal with Sadeas, but he get it back by re-kinking the bond with it. In other words, he'll claim her back. His love and dedication may be the "something more" needed. The sprens were betrayed, perhaps they need someone willing to risk it all for them to come back? He'll then be able to grow flowers (or moss) for Shallan :wub:

Hmm. I have several thoughts on all this but I'll leave them to a later post. I need to ponder it a bit more - I had not originally been rating the probability of Adolin reviving his Shardblade that high but now I'm kinda expecting it so thinking through how this could play out.

One thing though: you seem to view it as likely that Shallan and Adolin will be having some difficulties in their relationship from the start of the next book, even before stuff with Sadeas comes out. However, your reasons seem to assume that Adolin has already found out various things you've listed that could cause problems - he may well find them out but not necessarily immediately. Instead I'd expect that things go from being nice and sunny to stormy once the Sadeas stuff comes out.

 

[little wilson]

This is a pretty cool idea. I can't add anything to the current discussion on Shallan since you've got it pegged down to the results I would throw out, and I don't know which one she actually is. However, I do want to say something about the SJ's: Dalinar and Adolin. In particular Dalinar.

 

Dalinar reminds me a lot of myself. I'm an ESTJ (or I was when I took the quiz last month), but my EST preferences are all slight (11-12%), and I think I'm actually more of an ambivert than I or E, since when I took the quiz in October, I was an ISTJ. I think Dalinar is similar, though, as has been noted, he is a tough one to peg. For one, his SJ-ness and following Tanavast as much as he is makes it hard to know if the E he portrays is really him or Tanavast. There's also his position and cause. Leaders have to show a certain amount of E to be successful. They need to be able to converse with a lot of people, and the more natural the conversation is, the better. They need to be comfortable surrounded by people for long periods of time, or at least seem comfortable. Dalinar's association with so many people and his apparent calmness while talking with people he doesn't know/just met makes him appear somewhat like an E, but I think he's an I. It's just a slight preference of I over E, but I'm pretty sure he's an I. Part of that is seen pretty clearly in the size of the group he truly relies upon. In WoK, that group is largely just his family. In WoR, it branches out to include Kaladin, and I think by the end, you might be able to say Sebarial is in it too. Maybe. But that's a bit of a jump. E's, in my experience, branch out more than that, particularly to people other than family (not that family isn't included. They are, but their family doesn't make up the largest portion of the group, typically).

 

And a bit ago, maxal or kari-no-sugata mentioned that Adolin surrounds himself with a wide group of friends, but it isn't until Shallan comes along that he really opens up. This also seems to indicate that Adolin is actually an I. He's trying to masquerade as an E, but deep down, he's an I. Probably with a higher preference of I than Dalinar. Maybe a moderate preference. Somewhere in the 25-30% range, as opposed to Dalinar's 10-15%.

[kari-no-sugata]

Hi little wilson, thanks for joining in.

 

Relative to Adolin, Dalinar definitely feels more I to me. However... I took the MBTI test pretending to be Adolin about 2 weeks ago and got like 95% E or thereabouts so almost everyone would be more I than him (I'd be curious to see what others get)

 

It would be nice to see more discussion on Dalinar - in a way he's "officially" the most important person on Roshar right now. I think he's a very interesting character and his decisions will make a big impact so it's a shame that we didn't see too much from him in book 2. And like all the other characters he has his skills, flaws and particular characteristics. It will be interesting to see how those develop - it's quite fascinating to see a 50-something warlord realise that his entire approach for much of his life has been plain wrong! I'm also really curious to find out just what Bondsmiths can do. I'll see what I can do to gather my thoughts.

 

Regarding the discussion on Adolin: I don't see that scene as being indicative of him being a masquerading I, more like a fish that finally found water as it were. To continue my line of thinking from my previous post: There's been lots of discussion about Adolin's problems with girlfriends and it seems to be generally assumed that it shows a flaw or fault in Adolin. Yet... we know Alethi society as a whole has deep flaws. We don't consider Jasnah to be flawed for struggling to find Lighteyed girls who are worth taking on as wards (picky maybe, but not flawed). Obviously they're looking for different things in Lighteyed girls... but it may be a surprising valid comparison. The crucial difference of course is that Jasnah knows for sure what she is looking for and knows how to evaluate prospective wards. Adolin doesn't know, consciously at least, so he's confused.

 

Here's what could be going on: Unlike almost all his peers, Adolin has been raised in a decent household and has proper working relationships with his family. He thinks he's happy with Alethi society (and is trying to encourage Dalinar to be more Alethi-like for much of tWoK) but he's actually not happy with the Alethi way and by WoR he's come to realise this. He still hasn't realised what went "wrong" with all his girlfriends but maybe his subconscious has been warning him the whole time. ie his "flaw" is to want a relationship with a proper human being.

 

It would be interesting if Dalinar went through something similar: his wife wasn't Alethi either (Kaladin wonders if she was from Rira, which is NW from the Purelake).

 

I suspect we might dig deeper into the darker side of Alethi society sooner or later. If Dalinar is really going to be able to unite people I think he'll need to fix some of the bigger flaws, such as slavery.