The Return of Dawn

[Jult]

I posted a theory about this over a year ago on the Cosmere forum. But it's really a Stormlight-specific theory, so I'm gonna try putting this updated version here because there's a chance Stormlight-only readers actually exist. I've had some time to think it over and gained a bit of new Rosharan info from things like the RPG sourcebooks. And think it deserves a bit of a refresh.

Let's talk about the primal spren: Wind, Stone, and Night. They predate the arrival of the Shards on Roshar. They were left by Adonalsium - the being with 4 aspects. Who wielded 4 Dawnshards. And built Roshar - with its 4 moons and 4 pure tones. I don't believe Wind, Stone, and Night are a trio. I believe they are a quartet with a missing member. I think there's some evidence to support this idea too.

Firstly: the 4 tones. Koravellium associates one of them with Night when she first arrives in the Rosharan system:

Quote

"IT... IS A BEAUTIFUL SONG," SHE SAID. "THE SONG THE NIGHT SINGS... I LOVE IT".

-Koravellium Avast, WaT Chapter 100

Note: the all-caps font makes it weird, but it is clearly capital "N" Night in the book.

If one of the tones is connected to Night, I think it's a reasonable conclusion to say that Wind and Stone are each also connected to a tone. And then, what? There's a fourth tone that has no spren? I think not. I think the 4th tone needs a 4th primal spren.

Secondly: push and pull. Brandon loves this theme and it is strong throughout the Cosmere. Wind and Stone seem paired in a relationship of this type. But where is the "push" to Night's "pull"?

I think this all points to a 4th primal spren who is an opposite to Night. One who I have been calling "Dawn" in my head. Why "Dawn"? Originally, I had been calling it "Day", but another user pointed out that what Roshar needs more than anything right now is a Dawn that brings an end to the Everstorm. And I really liked that. Plus, I realized later that the Dawnsingers and Dawn's Shadow could potentially be named after the spren they worshipped.

So, where is Dawn? I think they were hurt. Badly. Before the Shards even arrived on Roshar. I think that's why the 4th moon fell in Natanatan (which is where Dawn's Shadow is btw). And I think they are in some kind of deadeye-esque state. But I think they are recovering (more on that later).

That's already a pretty decent sized wall of text. I have other thoughts on Dawn like whether they would have a modern counterpart like Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and the Sibling. Or how they might connect to Adolin or Ba-Ado-Mishram. And whether their existence would imply the possibility of a 4th Bondsmith. But let's start with the above because it's already a lot to unpack.

[Frustration]

Where are you getting four pure tones from? I don't recall a number ever being given.

Additionally I would note that all Pure Tones we know of are associated with a Shard, and Roshar notably adapted to each new arrival, the pure tones were not already there.

[Jult]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Where are you getting four pure tones from? I don't recall a number ever being given.

From the chasmfiends... And Venli.

Quote

Chasmfiends could sing.

Each of the beasts rose on an array of feet, turning a thick neck skyward and releasing a quartet of harmonizing notes, for they could call with multiple voices at once. Venli had been warned, but still she thought it remarkable, as she found something familiar in the notes. They vibrated within her, deep down to her gemheart. There were tones to the planet, separate from the rhythms her people heard. Perhaps these were the tones of the gods. But if that was the case, why four?

-WaT Chapter 60

I glossed over that passage on my first readthrough too. Venli chapters are not my favorite...

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Additionally I would note that all Pure Tones we know of are associated with a Shard, and Roshar notably adapted to each new arrival, the pure tones were not already there.

See the quote in my first post. It was Night's song that initially attracted Koravellium to Roshar. And on re-reading that chapter just now, Tanavast felt pulled to Wind's:

Quote

THESE QUESTIONS ECHOED IN THE STEWARDS THAT MY PREDECESSOR HAD LEFT. SHADOWS OF DIVINITY WITH INSTRUCTIONS TO PROTECT, TO SHROUD, TO NURTURE. ONE SANG TO ME IN PARTICULAR, AND THAT INVIGORATED ME, THOUGH I DID NOT KNOW WHY THE WIND WAS CHOSEN TO PROTECT. WIND, INVISIBLE WIND, SO FLIGHTY AND IMMATERIAL.

IT DID NOT... IT DID NOT CONDEMN ME. I SANG WITH IT.

-WaT Chapter 100

I agree it's not definitively stated. But I think Tanavast adopted Wind's tone and Koravellium adopted Night's. Which, I suppose would mean Rayse either took Stone's or the one that had previously belonged to Dawn. Considering we don't see much connecting Rayse to Stone, I'd assume he took over Dawn's empty post.

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Jult said:

From the chasmfiends... And Venli.

Interesting, I'll look into that.

16 minutes ago, Jult said:

See the quote in my first post. It was Night's song that initially attracted Koravellium to Roshar. And on re-reading that chapter just now, Tanavast felt pulled to Wind's:

I agree it's not definitively stated. But I think Tanavast adopted Wind's tone and Koravellium adopted Night's. Which, I suppose would mean Rayse either took Stone's or the one that had previously belonged to Dawn. Considering we don't see much connecting Rayse to Stone, I'd assume he took over Dawn's empty post.

I think it's more likely that Wind and Night adopted the Tones of Honor and Cultivation, as all shards have Tones, though they are more pronounced on Roshar

Spoiler

MoriWillow

Is that tone and rhythm stuff universal to the Shards and Investiture elsewhere?

Brandon Sanderson

The tones can be expanded to other Shards and Invested Arts around the cosmere.

dIvorrap

Are the Allomantic pulses a Seeker hears (like drum beats) related to the tones of Preservation, then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

Spoiler

Questioner

I have a question about the singers. If one of them were to reach the Third Heightening, would they then be able to sing the pure Tones of Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They definitely could. They might be able to before they reached that Heightening, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

Spoiler

Menderbug

Is the Well's pulsing a 'pure tone of Scadrial'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup!

Miscellaneous 2020 (Nov. 30, 2020)

And Roshar's tones shifted to adopt Odium once he arrived in the system, and shifted again when Taravangain took up the shard.

 

Though that does potentially bring a solution to the four tones as BAM connected herself to all of Roshar and the tones started doing some funky things once she did.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

The weirdest thing with the four tones for me has been what else happens in that scene with the chasmfiends. Venli uses Stoneshaping and allows the shape to be guided by the tones the chasmfiends sing. The resulting pattern is identical to the Shattered Plains, but inverted.
But, when we see the destruction of Stormseat and the creation of the Shattered Plains, the tone that's attributed as responsible is anti-Honor.  So there's a strange incongruity here that makes it a little hard to pin down what's going on with the four tones the chasmfiends sing.
It would make a lot of sense just from a pulled back perspective for them to belong to the Old Magic, but
The idea of a Dawn would be pretty cool.

[PanLin they/he]

17 hours ago, Jult said:

I think this all points to a 4th primal spren who is an opposite to Night. One who I have been calling "Dawn" in my head. Why "Dawn"? Originally, I had been calling it "Day", but another user pointed out that what Roshar needs more than anything right now is a Dawn that brings an end to the Everstorm. And I really liked that. Plus, I realized later that the Dawnsingers and Dawn's Shadow could potentially be named after the spren they worshipped.

This would all nicely mirror how we learned about a fourth moon and potential fourth Shard on Roshar, after being told there were only three of each.

 

All of this honestly sounds really reasonable and I'm mostly on board, but how do you reconcile the fact that none of the Bondsmith spren or ancient spren have mentioned or even made any allusions to a fourth ancient spren?

Thematically, I'd be fully on board with this, considering how important 4 is across the Cosmere; it would just feel off considering we have quotes like this:

Spoiler

There were echoes, of my predecessor. Little bits of him left behind. Three powerful incarnations who had his voice, and many smaller ones representing aspects of nature and personality....Shadows of divinity with instructions to protect, to shroud, to nurture. One sang to me, in particular, and that invigorated me, though I did not know why the Wind was chosen to protect. Wind, invisible Wind, so flighty and immaterial.

—Honor's Memories^[8]

Unless this fourth one was killed or consumed even before Honor and Cultivation got there, so long ago that even the weakened surviving ancient spren don't have the cognition left to recall them.

[GG0z He/Him]

I guess also, if your theory is correct, that with the release of Ba-Ado-Mishram, Dawn is healing

[Jult]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think it's more likely that Wind and Night adopted the Tones of Honor and Cultivation, as all shards have Tones, though they are more pronounced on Roshar

But then why 4? Even if the theories about Valor hiding out on Roshar are true the fourth is hers, I feel like her adding a fourth tone to the mix would immediately give away her hiding spot to the other Shards on the planet.

1 minute ago, PanLin said:

Unless this fourth one was killed or consumed even before Honor and Cultivation got there, so long ago that even the weakened surviving ancient spren don't have the cognition left to recall them.

That is exactly how I reconcile it. I do think 4th spren and 4th moon fell before Honor and Cultivation even arrived. Wind and Stone do feel cognitively impaired to me and even if they weren't I'm not sure they'd have a reason to bring up ancient history. I've also considered that the new Bondsmith spren could know about Dawn since they contain parts of the ancient spren, but the Stormfather and the Sibling have lied and omitted truths repeatedly throughout the story so far. So, it wouldn't really be that odd to find out there's more that they hid.

8 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

The weirdest thing with the four tones for me has been what else happens in that scene with the chasmfiends. Venli uses Stoneshaping and allows the shape to be guided by the tones the chasmfiends sing. The resulting pattern is identical to the Shattered Plains, but inverted.
But, when we see the destruction of Stormseat and the creation of the Shattered Plains, the tone that's attributed as responsible is anti-Honor.  So there's a strange incongruity here that makes it a little hard to pin down what's going on with the four tones the chasmfiends sing.
It would make a lot of sense just from a pulled back perspective for them to belong to the Old Magic, but
The idea of a Dawn would be pretty cool.

I also find this super weird. I don't understand why all 4 tones would result in a pattern that resembles an inverted version of anti-Honor. It's possible that maybe Venli just has poor pattern recognition. Maybe what she's seeing is 4 patterns overlaid with one another and it mostly reminds her of the plains because Honor would be 1/4th of that image?

4 minutes ago, GG0z said:

I guess also, if your theory is correct, that with the release of Ba-Ado-Mishram, Dawn is healing

Yes! I think there's a lot of symbolism to Dawn returning to a Roshar that largely has no sunlight thanks to the Everstorm. I think she'll need extra help to recover, but Adolin (mister "born unto light") seems to have spent his whole life being prepared for this.

[GG0z He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Jult said:

Yes! I think there's a lot of symbolism to Dawn returning to a Roshar that largely has no sunlight thanks to the Everstorm. I think she'll need extra help to recover, but Adolin (mister "born unto light") seems to have spent his whole life being prepared for this

Along with his Unoathed Shardblade and maybe his team of other Unoathed. I guess Dawn could be somewhere in Azir

Edited May 14 by GG0z

[alder24]

Interesting theory, it makes sense and I like it. I wouldn't be surprised to know that BAM is the 4th primal spren, who either from the very beginning was associated with Odium, or was corrupted by him when he settled on Roshar. She appears as a Singer, which might indicate that she’s as old and native to Roshar as they are.

17 hours ago, Jult said:

I agree it's not definitively stated. But I think Tanavast adopted Wind's tone and Koravellium adopted Night's. Which, I suppose would mean Rayse either took Stone's or the one that had previously belonged to Dawn. Considering we don't see much connecting Rayse to Stone, I'd assume he took over Dawn's empty post.

I don't think Shards adapted to tones of sprens, rather their tones were already similar due to the fact that those spren's investiture got assigned to those particular Shards during the Shattering. Wind was made out of Honor's investiture and thus their tone was similar to the pure tone of Honor and that's why Tanavast was drawn to them, the same goes for Night and Cultivation. The Stone could be a mix of both Honor and Cultivation's investiture (just like the Sibling is, who is made out of a portion of the Stone), pure Odium's investiture, or most likely was associated with investiture of a Shard not present on Roshar.

Spoiler

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

8 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

The weirdest thing with the four tones for me has been what else happens in that scene with the chasmfiends. Venli uses Stoneshaping and allows the shape to be guided by the tones the chasmfiends sing. The resulting pattern is identical to the Shattered Plains, but inverted.
But, when we see the destruction of Stormseat and the creation of the Shattered Plains, the tone that's attributed as responsible is anti-Honor.  So there's a strange incongruity here that makes it a little hard to pin down what's going on with the four tones the chasmfiends sing.

17 minutes ago, Jult said:

I also find this super weird. I don't understand why all 4 tones would result in a pattern that resembles an inverted version of anti-Honor.

Was it just anti-Honor? Both Honor and Odium clashed, their souls mixed and created anti-light as a result. I would imagine it was not only anti-Honor, but also anti-Odium, possibly mixed as anti-War. The book did say there were multiple anti-tones present. WaT ch 120:

Quote

IN THAT SPACE OF NOTHING—EVERY AXON FORCED AWAY—OUR SOULS MELDED IN THE MOST UNNERVING OF WAYS, TOO INTIMATE, TOO REMINISCENT OF CREATION FOR A CREATURE SUCH AS HIM. IN THAT MOMENT, TINY PIECES OF SOMETHING DISCORDANT WERE BORN.
SOMETHING DANGEROUS, EVEN TO A GOD. THE COUNTER TO MY ESSENCE. ANTI-LIGHT, IT COULD BE CALLED.
WORSE, THE SHOCK WAVE OF OUR CLASH SURGED BENEATH US, POWER RUSHING AND VIBRATING WITH THOSE TERRIBLE TONES.

[Frustration]

36 minutes ago, Jult said:

But then why 4? Even if the theories about Valor hiding out on Roshar are true the fourth is hers, I feel like her adding a fourth tone to the mix would immediately give away her hiding spot to the other Shards on the planet.

Why I'm not sure, but personally I propose Ba-Ado-Mishram as the explanation.

Additionally I've been thinking, having Wind and Stone be pure tones the shards adapted to doesn't work, as Honor had a great affinity for stone, and had to help Cultivation when she wanted to manipulate it, despite Wind being most closely associated with Honor.

[Jult]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Interesting theory, it makes sense and I like it. I wouldn't be surprised to know that BAM is the 4th primal spren, who either from the very beginning was associated with Odium, or was corrupted by him when he settled on Roshar. She appears as a Singer, which might indicate that she’s as old and native to Roshar as they are.

I agree. It's one of my main suspicions for BAM's origins (though not my only one). I said yesterday that Odium probably aligned with Dawn's tone rather than Stone's. And I think I'd like to double down on that. If Odium was using Dawn's tone and BAM was once Dawn, it would make her seizure of control from Odium make a bit more sense to me. If taking the Well of Control was all it took to steal the reigns from Odium, then I feel like anyone could have done it. But, if BAM was once Dawn... then, in a way, she would have been reclaiming Connections that were rightfully hers.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't think Shards adapted to tones of sprens, rather their tones were already similar due to the fact that those spren's investiture got assigned to those particular Shards during the Shattering. Wind was made out of Honor's investiture and thus their tone was similar to the pure tone of Honor and that's why Tanavast was drawn to them, the same goes for Night and Cultivation. The Stone could be a mix of both Honor and Cultivation's investiture (just like the Sibling is, who is made out of a portion of the Stone), pure Odium's investiture, or most likely was associated with investiture of a Shard not present on Roshar.

This is beautiful and perhaps the best answer I can think of to some of @Frustration's concerns. 

[Master_Moridin he/him]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Was it just anti-Honor? Both Honor and Odium clashed, their souls mixed and created anti-light as a result. I would imagine it was not only anti-Honor, but also anti-Odium, possibly mixed as anti-War. The book did say there were multiple anti-tones present. WaT ch 120:

After it says the pattern was dictated by "the tone" which yeah, fair that that's weird following up on a mention of multiple tones.  The numerical count is still off though.

 

10 hours ago, Jult said:

I also find this super weird. I don't understand why all 4 tones would result in a pattern that resembles an inverted version of anti-Honor. It's possible that maybe Venli just has poor pattern recognition. Maybe what she's seeing is 4 patterns overlaid with one another and it mostly reminds her of the plains because Honor would be 1/4th of that image?

Timbre is the one that tells her the pattern matches exactly, save for the inversion, cause she saw it from above.

[Jult]

Okay, second wall of text to follow up on the stuff I mentioned at the end of my initial post:

1. Would Dawn have a modern counterpart like Wind=Stormfather, Night=Nightwatcher, and the Stone=Sibling?

The modern Bondsmith spren were created by Honor and Cultivation. As I said above, I think Dawn died/deadeyed before Honor and Cultivation even arrived on Roshar. I don't think they were ever even aware of Dawn because Tanavast was certainly surprised by the remains of the 4th moon. However, someone last year did mention that the Lifebrother is a thing, and his name does feel very Bondsmith-y. Still, I think the answer is no. Maybe one will be created in the back half, but I don't think there is currently one.

2. Could someone bond Dawn and become a 4th Bondsmith?

I think yes (although with the deaths of Stormfather and Dalinar, I guess we're technically back down to 3 Bondsmith). It's mentioned that Bondsmiths used to bond to the Ancient Spren before the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling showed up. So, I don't see why Dawn wouldn't be able to make a bond too. They may even serve as an interesting loophole to the Oathpact since they were wholly uninvolved when it was forged. Dawn could possibly be free from the constraints of Oaths. Adolin would be my choice to bond Dawn if someone was going to.

3. Ba-Ado-Mishram

I go back and forth on whether or not BAM and Dawn could be related or even the same being. It meshes well with some of my ideas and clashes with others.

Like yeah it fits well because they both have 'light' themes and BAM looks like a Dawnsinger and there's something interesting to be said about her usurping Rayse if Rayse was already leveraging her tone.

But, also, it throws a wrench in the idea that the Shards don't know about Dawn. Unless Tanavast just has no idea where the Unmade came from. Plus, it kind of raises the question of what the other 8 Unmade are. But I guess other powerful non-bondsmith spren like the Grey Remnant exist so..

4. Other random tidbits

~I'd probably associate Dawn with the Spark Essence. Which is linked to Bravery. Something I normally wouldn't bother to mention except.. y'know.. RoW 113:

Spoiler

Quote

Cold steel bit Taravangian’s skin as Szeth stabbed him right in the chest. At the same moment, Taravangian felt something pushing through his fear, his pain. An emotion he’d never thought to feel himself. Bravery.

Bravery surged through him, so powerfully he could not help but move. It was the dying courage of a man on the front lines charging an enemy army. The glory of a woman fighting for her child. The feeling of an old man on his last day of life stepping into darkness.

Bravery.

The Physical Realm faded as Odium pulled Taravangian into the place between worlds. Taravangian’s body was not as weak here. This form was a manifestation of his mind and soul. And those were strong.

~Flamespren have been literally all over the story so far thanks to spanreeds and other fabrials. If Dawn's relationship to them is similar to Wind's with Windspren. Then Dawn could be very in-the-know.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Jult said:

Unless Tanavast just has no idea where the Unmade came from.

He did not, and he even commented during the flashbacks about how he was surprised that Odium had been able to hide their creation from him.

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Jult said:

But, also, it throws a wrench in the idea that the Shards don't know about Dawn. Unless Tanavast just has no idea where the Unmade came from.

WaT ch 120:

Quote

THE UNMADE, IN PARTICULAR, WERE GROWING IN STRENGTH. HE HAD HIDDEN THEIR CREATION FROM ME, AND I FOUND THEM UNNERVING. MY RADIANTS COULD DO GREAT THINGS, BUT WERE KEPT IN CHECK BY THEIR OATHS. HIS FUSED WERE MORE LIMITED—LEAVING HIM EXTRA STRENGTH HE COULD GIVE TO THE UNMADE.

[Jult]

On 5/15/2026 at 3:24 PM, Frustration said:

He did not, and he even commented during the flashbacks about how he was surprised that Odium had been able to hide their creation from him.

On 5/16/2026 at 8:41 AM, alder24 said:

WaT ch 120:

Oh. Well then. Maybe it doesn't cause as many issues as I thought. I guess, keeping with the current line of theorizing that Rayse did share a tone with Dawn, maybe that extra Connection made whatever was left of Dawn more noticeable to Rayse than the other Shards? I suppose that could explain him finding and unmaking Dawn without Tanavast noticing.

I've been reviewing random passages related to the ancient spren, bondsmith spren, and Unmade. One thing that intrigues me is that the Sibling is afraid that they will be unmade when Odium's forces seize Urithiru. I think this slightly reinforces the idea that the Unmade were once powerful spren. It also would imply that the Sibling understands a bit more about the Unmade than we do.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

7 hours ago, Jult said:

I think this slightly reinforces the idea that the Unmade were once powerful spren. It also would imply that the Sibling understands a bit more about the Unmade than we do.

Two things to consider: When Shallan touches Re-shephir's soul, she's left with the impression she used to be human.

And Taravangian also mentions that his plan if he gets Dalinar’s soul is to make him into an Unmade.

So signs point to the possibility of the Unmade having a diversity of origins.

[Nitpicking]

5 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

Two things to consider: When Shallan touches Re-shephir's soul, she's left with the impression she used to be human.

And Taravangian also mentions that his plan if he gets Dalinar’s soul is to make him into an Unmade.

So signs point to the possibility of the Unmade having a diversity of origins.

If I ever get to ask Brandon a question, it will be, "Does Taravangian feel stupid after his confrontation with Dalinar, when he realizes he could have Unmade the Stormfather and thus turned Tanner into his perpetual servant, and created an enormously powerful Unmade that (being mostly Honor) would nicely counterbalance Ba-Ado-Mishram?"

[ScavellTane]

Lets hope that Ba-Ado-Mishram just means First-Light-of-Dawn.

[PanLin they/he]

21 hours ago, Jult said:

I've been reviewing random passages related to the ancient spren, bondsmith spren, and Unmade. One thing that intrigues me is that the Sibling is afraid that they will be unmade when Odium's forces seize Urithiru. I think this slightly reinforces the idea that the Unmade were once powerful spren. It also would imply that the Sibling understands a bit more about the Unmade than we do.

Fringe theory, but what if there were originally 10 'cityspren' (I've been calling them Advancementspren in my notes)? Odium could've originally intended to turn all 10 into Unmade, and simply failed to get to and corrupt the Sibling. The Fused occupying Urithiru could just have been them trying to finish the job.

 

8 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

If I ever get to ask Brandon a question, it will be, "Does Taravangian feel stupid after his confrontation with Dalinar, when he realizes he could have Unmade the Stormfather and thus turned Tanner into his perpetual servant, and created an enormously powerful Unmade that (being mostly Honor) would nicely counterbalance Ba-Ado-Mishram?"

Unless Odium's (or Rayse's) aversion to Adhesion prevented him from doing this.

 

On 5/14/2026 at 3:06 PM, Frustration said:

Additionally I've been thinking, having Wind and Stone be pure tones the shards adapted to doesn't work, as Honor had a great affinity for stone, and had to help Cultivation when she wanted to manipulate it, despite Wind being most closely associated with Honor.

Agreed; Wind, Stone and Night are effectively Adonalsiumspren. H+C didn't modify their rhythms to match Roshar; Roshar was spiritually adapted to include them (which happened again when the Oathpact trapped Odium in the system).

[Jult]

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

Fringe theory, but what if there were originally 10 'cityspren' (I've been calling them Advancementspren in my notes)? Odium could've originally intended to turn all 10 into Unmade, and simply failed to get to and corrupt the Sibling. The Fused occupying Urithiru could just have been them trying to finish the job.

I've seen this idea before. And I do like it quite a bit. However, I think it's hard to reconcile with the Tanavast quote alder24 put above:

Quote

THE UNMADE, IN PARTICULAR, WERE GROWING IN STRENGTH. HE HAD HIDDEN THEIR CREATION FROM ME, AND I FOUND THEM UNNERVING. MY RADIANTS COULD DO GREAT THINGS, BUT WERE KEPT IN CHECK BY THEIR OATHS. HIS FUSED WERE MORE LIMITED—LEAVING HIM EXTRA STRENGTH HE COULD GIVE TO THE UNMADE.

If the Unmade were the cityspren, I feel like it would have been nearly impossible to hide their creation from Tanavast. Unless Tanavast just really wasn't paying attention. 

Master_Moridin makes a good point too. There are a few hints that the Unmade aren't all spren.

2 hours ago, PanLin said:

Agreed; Wind, Stone and Night are effectively Adonalsiumspren. H+C didn't modify their rhythms to match Roshar; Roshar was spiritually adapted to include them (which happened again when the Oathpact trapped Odium in the system).

I think alder24's idea of the Ancient Spren already having similar tones to H+C because all Investiture aligned to one of the Shards at the time of the Shattering is the best idea for getting around this.
 

Side note: I feel like sometimes we conflate tones and rhythms in these discussions. Being able to actually hear these things would be nice.. Describing sounds is hard.

[HoidProbablyDidIt]

I’m happy to see someone else has been thinking along these lines as well. I came on here to search if this topic had been discussed. 
 

I also can’t help but feel there was or is a fourth “steward” of Roshar left by Adonalsium. 
 

Roshar was created around mathematics, music, and art. Four is mathematically symmetrical and obviously important to Adonalsium. Three is not; we have numerous references to that. 
 

We also know there were initially four moons orbiting Roshar which Ado had created, with that fourth moon mysteriously (at some point) having crashed into Roshar under Stormseat. Four moons, four primeval stewards. 

As to an explanation for why Honor would have only sensed three upon his initial arrival:

“Worse, the shock wave of our clash surged beneath us, power rushing and vibrating with those terrible tones. I realized too late that there was something strange about this land, beneath this city. Pieces of something fallen. A … fourth moon ? In splinters ? It reacted to us, and I saw people there—new ones, watchers, who had been hidden from me.

Those pieces of the sky … they sheltered from the eyes of God? That was not aluminum. It was something greater. Something … that responded to our clash, the ground liquefying in a pattern, dictated by the tone and the strange nature of the place.”

If we assume the initial four stewards were represented in the system by the four moons, and that fourth moon was sheltered or invisible to the gods, Honor would have only sensed or seen three. 
 

After the arrival of the shards on Roshar, the original stewards were slowly forgotten and weakened. I have felt this is perhaps why the moons began to resonate the light of the shards instead. 
 

As to the nature of that fourth steward, I have also thought along the lines of Light or Illumination for the same reasons you’ve outlined. We see so many references to light in the nahel spren or a combination of light and dark(shroud).
 

A Lightweaver uses light to create illusions, shrouding the true nature of something. We have Reachers, also known as Lightspren. They appear in the physical world as little ball of light. I mean, come on, that can’t be a coincidence.
 

Other examples include the inkspren who are black and shrouded unless light hits them and shows a multitude of colors prismatically. Mistspren appear as light appears shimmering through crystal. 
 

These are too many indications that as Honor and Cultivation created the nahel spren in conjunction with the tones of Roshar, that Light exerted an influence on those creations, whether Honor and Cultivation were actively aware of it. 
 

I’m more and more convinced this has to be the case. 
 

This does pose numerous additional questions and mysteries. 
 

What was Light/Dawn/Illumination/Truth’s command left by Ado?

How or why did the fourth moon crash into Roshar? Was it intentional on Light’s part to fulfill its command, was it the result of the Shards arrival in the system, or something completely unrelated (such as a Dawnshard residing on that moon and being drawn to another Dawnshard in the vicinity? Such as when Rysn and Hoid came into contact with Rysn being pulled towards Hoid.)

How does the story of Queen Tsa and the moons relate this steward (if at all?)

Many things to ponder…

”There’s always another secret.”

~Kelsier

Edited May 24 by HoidProbablyDidIt
Grammar

[PanLin they/he]

21 hours ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

Roshar was created around mathematics, music, and art. Four is mathematically symmetrical and obviously important to Adonalsium. Three is not; we have numerous references to that. 

21 hours ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

If we assume the initial four stewards were represented in the system by the four moons, and that fourth moon was sheltered or invisible to the gods, Honor would have only sensed or seen three. 

21 hours ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

As to the nature of that fourth steward, I have also thought along the lines of Light or Illumination for the same reasons you’ve outlined. We see so many references to light in the nahel spren or a combination of light and dark(shroud).

Could it have been Reason? And all of this was an intentional (or at least semi-intentional) ploy to stay hidden from the other Shards?

It could be that Reason was actually the first Shard on Roshar, known as Dawn by the people there, and they went into hiding before Honor and Cultivation got there.

I can feel a rabbit hole calling to me, but I wonder if (assuming it is Reason) there's any relationship between Reason and Truthwatchers / Mistspren?

[HoidProbablyDidIt]

4 hours ago, PanLin said:

Could it have been Reason? And all of this was an intentional (or at least semi-intentional) ploy to stay hidden from the other Shards?

It could be that Reason was actually the first Shard on Roshar, known as Dawn by the people there, and they went into hiding before Honor and Cultivation got there.

I can feel a rabbit hole calling to me, but I wonder if (assuming it is Reason) there's any relationship between Reason and Truthwatchers / Mistspren?

That’s a very interesting observation. I like where your heads at, I hadn’t considered that.
 

The rabbit hole has led me to consider Virtuosity, who either splintered herself near Komashi and reformed, or somehow faked a splintering to hide. How could a shard whose intent is literally artistic expression, appreciation, and mathematics resist a planet like Roshar which was created by Ado centering on art, music, and mathematics?
 

Wat chapter 100:

Spoiler

“Here in this world I found perfection, a relic of the being I had slain for his own good. Roshar had been grown entirely from equations, as a grand testament to the divine nature of mathematics—a celebration of the intimate relationship between song, numbers, and art.

There was Honor in this.”

 

I find it very unlikely Virtousity (who B$ considered naming Artistry) could resist the shards desire to reside in that place. Whose influence would have possibly contributed to the Crytpics formation. I also wouldn’t put it past Cultivation to help conceal another shard on Roshar, she’s sneaky like that.

Something else I noticed along this thread of Virousity’s ‘influence’ to support it was in WaT, while Shallan and crew are in the Spiritual Realm and upon arrival in the vision of Renarin’s room, she notices something uniquely odd…

Spoiler

“Light peeked in through open window drapes, but something was wrong with the colors. It didn’t feel quite real. Indeed, when she picked up one of the soldiers from the wooden rampart, she could see that its colors bled into the air. A little like the colors of a prism, but separated, creating three little toy soldiers slightly off-center from one another.

Cyan, magenta, yellow, she thought, remembering her color theory lessons. Curious. Though she seemed to be solid, the light coming off every other object had that same surreal, off-kilter split of colors. As if they were on the floor of some Thaylen master printer’s offices, discarded for misalignment.”

We’ve seen those unique colors elsewhere in the Cosmere directly related to Virtousity…

 

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

We only know the people of Komashi as having Investiture from Virtuosity, why does their Investiture seem to be split into the two streams of power known as hion? Is this something unique to Virtuosity as a Shard, or just how it happens to manifest on Komashi?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. This will be a theme you will see wherever Virtuosity is involved. So yeah. hmmmmm interesting. This will be a theme. There is a sub theme to this in the Cosmere. The Push and Pull. The opposites should be echoing through the magic systems. It is more expressed in Virtuosity than the others but do keep in mind that the Yin Yang sort of thing is there in the Cosmere as well in the general magic system, but more pronounced with Virtuosity, shall we say.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

A very curious coincidence?  Food for thought, it’s fun spinning possibilities with a fellow theorist. 

Time will tell…

Along your line of Mistspren/Ashspren, I read on one of these forums an observation made. If there were going to be two spren representing Scadrial, (Leras and Ati) could there be a better representation for those two? Mistspren even wear a mask exactly like the Malwish. 

Is it possible a large group of people from Scadrial, at some point in the past, found their way to Roshar and their thoughts/perceptions influenced those two sprens forms?

Definitely a fun possibility.