[Discuss] Jasnah: An analysis of a monster

[Frustration]

TLDR: Jasnah bears a greater resemblance to Meridas Amaram than she does to anything resembling a hero, and her father was wise trying to pair them.

 

Ever since WaT I have been forced to reevaluate my opinions of Jasnah. She went from being pragmatic with a hard edge to one of the most morally repugnant characters in the Stormlight Archive, and comparing her to a hero is inarguably laughable.

Given how little we have seen PoVs from her I intend to base this off of a few key moments to highlight Jasnah's sickening lack of morality.

Going in mostly chronological order the first thing that comes to mind was hiring an assassin to kill Aesudan. Early on this was played for mystery and suspense, but the reveal in WaT that Jasnah was just scared of her own sister-in-law really speaks volumes. When it comes to inconvenient people, even those in her own family, Jasnah's answer is murder. Not speaking to them, not patience, not understanding and compromise, murder.

Some might bring up Jasnah killing the footpads in WoK next, but I actually have no problems with that. What I actually wanted to look at was Jasnah's interactions with Renarin in OB. When she found out that Renarin had predicted the Everstorm Jasnah begins to watch him. Unto itself, that isn't too unusual or noteworthy, and honestly, some of the others should have done the same. However, when she confirmed that Renarin was bonded to a corrupted spren Jasnah's first response was to try and kill him. We can confirm this as we have Renarin's PoV from this encounter, Jasnah hadn't even spoken to him about this earlier.

I don't think Brandon took the time in the book to go over just how evil that actually is. She didn't ask Renarin for an explanation, didn't ask if he was hurt or in danger, nothing. For her it was as simple as: Renarin has a corrupted spren, therefore I should kill him. If Renarin hadn't looked at her at that moment I fully believe that she would have done it, which Renarin's visions confirm.

The final straw, and what finally got me to realize this pattern was the debate in WaT, when we found out the truth about Aesudan as well as Jasnah's plans to assassinate Fen as well as other coalition leaders. This was the ultimate confirmation to me, Jasnah doesn't have friends, merely useful tools. She doesn't believe in allies, just people who have the same enemies. Well is she labeled a heretic because to her nothing is sacred, and nothing is off limits.

 

Many have compared Jasnah to Taravangian, including myself. However, lately I have come to disagree. Taravangian cares about the people around him. He has friends and allies that he takes care of even to the point of creating a massive weakness for himself to do so. Jasnah on the other hand only cares for herself and her goals. She might care about her family, but to her they are replaceable, something that can be thrown aside if they become inconvenient. She is far closer to Meridas Amaram, and Moash. Jasnah is easily one of the most morally reprehensible characters in the Stormlight Archive and I hope she gets brought to Justice.

[PanLin they/he]

I'm not sure I fall quite as hard on the 'morally repugnant' side, but otherwise yes I completely agree with this. Jasnah is arrogant and has, imo, big issues with empathy. I reckon she gets a bit of a free pass in-universe as a Kholin and because of her reputation as a leading scholar, and in-text as a POV character.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The final straw, and what finally got me to realize this pattern was the debate in WaT, when we found out the truth about Aesudan as well as Jasnah's plans to assassinate Fen as well as other coalition leaders. This was the ultimate confirmation to me, Jasnah doesn't have friends, merely useful tools. She doesn't believe in allies, just people who have the same enemies. Well is she labeled a heretic because to her nothing is sacred, and nothing is off limits.

Exactly this, she doesn't build relationships in a healthy way; she collects resources. Even looking at her relationship with Hoid, she primarily valued the intellectual challenge:

Spoiler

She found the way he spoke fascinating. After all this time - and all her worries - here was one who was her intellectual equal. Perhaps her superior. ”

—Jasnah^[70]

How arrogant do you have to be to reluctantly consider that maaayyyybe this figure of myth—someone with thousands of years of experience, potentially a wider range of Invested abilities than anyone else in the Cosmere, and a first-name relationship with the gods—is on the same level as you when no-one in your life ever has been, and might just about be your intellectual superior?

Even when ending that relationship, she did the equivalent of breaking up via text then cowardly leaving, just to avoid handling Hoid and the situation with any kind of respect.

The biggest part of her debate with Taravangian and Fen, at least from my perspective when I first read it, was this exact revelation—when she claims to be purely utilitarian she's either a hypocrite or a villain. Jasnah knew that she, in Fen's place, would've taken the deal, and only wanted Fen to take a different decision to aid her own goals.

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Many have compared Jasnah to Taravangian, including myself. However, lately I have come to disagree. Taravangian cares about the people around him. He has friends and allies that he takes care of even to the point of creating a massive weakness for himself to do so. Jasnah on the other hand only cares for herself and her goals. She might care about her family, but to her they are replaceable, something that can be thrown aside if they become inconvenient. She is far closer to Meridas Amaram, and Moash. Jasnah is easily one of the most morally reprehensible characters in the Stormlight Archive and I hope she gets brought to Justice

I really thought she and Taravangian were kindred spirits until we saw that Taravangian had lied to Cultivation and rescued all of Kharbranth in the spiritual realm. I think, in his place, Jasnah wouldn't have considered that, and would genuinely have viewed the sacrifice of the city as a worthwhile cost for getting one up on a Shard and removing what she would have considered as an unnecessary weakness.

I genuinely hadn't considered the similarities to Amaram, but you're totally right.

It'll be super interesting to see how this all plays out for her POV book, and whether her character will double down on what we've seen of her so far, or have a sort of redemption arc triggered by her debate with Taravangian.

[Ninth of the Night]

I think it's bit ruthless to call her a monster. Jasnah clearly has some deep seeded trauma that she's likely struggled to keep burried all her life. Her lack of empathy is almost certainly a result of that, not because she doesn't want to be empathetic, but because she has been conditioned to believe it would make her weak and susceptible to betrayal.

No I wouldn't consider her a hero, but that doesn't automatically make her an irredeemable monster. People are more nuanced than that. She's still learning and healing, give her time.

Dalinar was also a rather heinous individual in his youth, look how he turned out. Jasnah is probably following a similar path. 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, PanLin said:

I really thought she and Taravangian were kindred spirits until we saw that Taravangian had lied to Cultivation and rescued all of Kharbranth in the spiritual realm. I think, in his place, Jasnah wouldn't have considered that, and would genuinely have viewed the sacrifice of the city as a worthwhile cost for getting one up on a Shard and removing what she would have considered as an unnecessary weakness.

I honestly hadn't thought about what she would do there, but you're right.

54 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

I think it's bit ruthless to call her a monster. Jasnah clearly has some deep seeded trauma that she's likely struggled to keep burried all her life. Her lack of empathy is almost certainly a result of that, not because she doesn't want to be empathetic, but because she has been conditioned to believe it would make her weak and susceptible to betrayal.

I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter how traumatic your backstory is: murder is still wrong.

55 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

No I wouldn't consider her a hero, but that doesn't automatically make her an irredeemable monster. People are more nuanced than that. She's still learning and healing, give her time.

I didn't say she couldn't repent, just that at this moment she's a monster.

56 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Dalinar was also a rather heinous individual in his youth, look how he turned out. Jasnah is probably following a similar path. 

And the Dalinar that burnt the Rift was a murderous madman, and yes evil.

However, the biggest difference I see between them is that Dalinar was sorry for what he did. It ate him up, Jasnah on the other hand, when confronted about her actions just responded with: Well that's what anyone would do in my situation.

Again she could change, but she's still a garbage excuse for a human being.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

When it comes to inconvenient people, even those in her own family, Jasnah's answer is murder. Not speaking to them, not patience, not understanding and compromise, murder.

I have said things to  this elsewhere: This is just doing palace politics. I do get that Jasnah has killed a lot of people, but that's exceedingly normal for her social status. I get that she plans to kill her family. This is normal for her social status. She is a member of the violent warrior-noble caste. Her father orchestrated a unification war and then everyone loyal to her family went off to do a genocide over his death. Fen is the head of a state. I think I have also said this before: If Fen was the linchpin of a force making war on Alethkar, would Jasnah not be duty bound to destroy that linchpin? She Fen had pulled a Taravangian and been working for the enemy in secret but this information came to light, would she not be better positioned for having already identified the means to defeat this traitor? And to be clear, neither of those assassinations happen. Jasnah here is being held accountable for plans instead of actions.

As for Renarin, he was demonstrating powers believed to be sourced from the enemy. Jasnah is presumably keenly aware of the association of voidbinding (something we the audience know almost nothing about besides it association with forecasting events) and voidbringers. It actually is the case that Renarin is literally the chosen partner of a spirit which carries the essence of the Shard that stands against Jasnah and the people she has a duty to protect; The further complication that those spirits are less unified than they used to be because Rayse was bad at his job or something, I am not sure if we know what made Sja Anat start betraying Rayse. Yes, it would have been a fault against her if she did kill him. It turns out the forbidden magics are not conditioned on pacts of service to the enemy. She didn't kill Renarin. Judgement of the plan, not the action.

I also think detachment towards one's family is more virtuous than the alternative. It would be a diminishing of her moral character to let Taravangian's insults and scheming defeat her effort to be good to the many rather than the few with the privileged of sharing her blood or that she somehow should see the virtue in only killing people as a spur of the moment thing. 

[Ripheus23]

The sense behind calling someone, anyone, a monster would have to be finely parsed for this to be more than polemical. Using a vague definition, I could similarly classify Taravangian as a monster, not because his abstract motives were seemingly as reprehensible as Jasnah's but because regardless of his motives, his actions are so horrible that they put to shame whatever ideology he cooked up to justify them. I could view Szeth as a monster for agreeing to become a merciless mass murderer for the sake of obeying a ridiculous protocol involving people having a random rock in their possession. I could look at Tanavast as a monster for his role in murdering Adonalsium and imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram. I could view Kaladin as at least suspicious because he went along with the terrible evil of killing the listener soldiers who were protecting their homeland, and on the base (cowardly) motive of "just wanting to stay alive." (If only more soldiers in the real world would disobey orders when commanded to help with an invasion of another nation!)

If Sanderson has not intended to write entities like Ruin and Retribution as "gods of evil" in a naive fantasy-trope sense, I wonder that he would intend to write e.g. Jasnah as a "monster"? Or would it be more as one flawed person amid a myriad of flawed persons? He's a non-aggressive Christian (to some extent), so I don't know that he would tend to separate people into "these are good enough" and "these are bad enough" categories generally.

But, to be fair, if one is committed to a worked-out theory of morality allowing for such categorizations, and if the specifics single out e.g. Jasnah more than Taravangian (or both, but relative to somewhat different applied rubrics; or whatever else along these lines), it might be reasonable to describe Jasnah using the word "monster."

[Jult]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

14 hours ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Dalinar was also a rather heinous individual in his youth, look how he turned out. Jasnah is probably following a similar path. 

And the Dalinar that burnt the Rift was a murderous madman, and yes evil.

Dalinar also had a tiny bit of literal divine intervention from Cultivation that helped him with his redemption.

 

The Kholin family as a whole is full of monsters. They talk about doing the right thing a lot, but they don't hold themselves to the same rules that they establish for everyone else. Taravangian proved it for Jasnah, but it's true for nearly all of them. Renarin and Navani are the exceptions (though they are still enablers). Jury's still out on Gavinor, but he's a special case.

Dalinar, Gavilar, Elhokar, Aesudan, Adolin, and Jasnah are all murderers. But I'm pretty sure the only time any of them has spent in a cell was when Adolin chose to as a way to protest Kaladin's imprisonment. They are hypocrites.

That being said, Adolin is basically already redeemed. And Jasnah seems to be having a pretty big internal crisis after losing her debate with Taravangian. I think she will push towards actually practicing what she preaches in the back half of the series. Whether or not that will make her a "good person" is a tedious philosophical debate in and of itself. 

[Schizoposting]

@Frustration, I think that Jasnah is a more complex character than you're giving her credit for; in a certain sense she's a combination of master and slave morality—on one hand she's ruthless, powerful, self-sufficient, and amoral; on the other hand, she genuinely wants to do the greatest good. The former is why many people consider her to be a "monster", because it offends our modern sensibilities. But, by the standards of her society, this is perfectly acceptable, and even to be celebrated.

Given however, that Brandon ascribes to Christian morality, we can be sure that the latter side will win out.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I have said things to  this elsewhere: This is just doing palace politics.

I'll say this a few times in my response, but I'll only post the image once

Spoiler

 

 

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I do get that Jasnah has killed a lot of people, but that's exceedingly normal for her social status. I get that she plans to kill her family. This is normal for her social status.

It really isn't. I mean killing people sure, but war is an entire other ballpark. Assassination on the other hand is not. Even Sadeas in his younger days called it cowardice and a disgrace. It isn't normal; it might happen, but everyone acknowledges that it's wrong.

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Fen is the head of a state. I think I have also said this before: If Fen was the linchpin of a force making war on Alethkar, would Jasnah not be duty bound to destroy that linchpin? She Fen had pulled a Taravangian and been working for the enemy in secret but this information came to light, would she not be better positioned for having already identified the means to defeat this traitor?

Cool motive, still murder.

And no it would not have put her in a better position as if Fen wasn't a traitor and found out(as she did) then Fen would rightly feel betrayed(as she did). Even if the assassins were successful Theylanah would appoint a new ruler who would have even more reason to be against Jasnah. It can only result in more problems than solutions.

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Jasnah here is being held accountable for plans instead of actions.

Judgement of the plan, not the action.

These weren't just idle daydreams, she was ready and willing to put them into effect. She was one second away from giving the order to kill Aesudan, or killing Renarin. I don't think going to someone's home and sitting outside with a rifle trained on them, and stopping only because a car crash occurred suddenly absolves you of your attempted murder.

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

As for Renarin, he was demonstrating powers believed to be sourced from the enemy. Jasnah is presumably keenly aware of the association of voidbinding (something we the audience know almost nothing about besides it association with forecasting events) and voidbringers. It actually is the case that Renarin is literally the chosen partner of a spirit which carries the essence of the Shard that stands against Jasnah and the people she has a duty to protect;

And so maybe she could talk to him.

"Hey, Renarin, what's going on with your spren?"

"Hey, Renarin, it looks like you're seeing the future. Is there something you need to tell me?"

"Renarin, what is going on?"

That way if he is being used against his will, or if his spren isn't from Odium, or if Jasnah is just wrong, she can help, instead of just killing him.

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

The sense behind calling someone, anyone, a monster would have to be finely parsed for this to be more than polemical. Using a vague definition, I could similarly classify Taravangian as a monster, not because his abstract motives were seemingly as reprehensible as Jasnah's but because regardless of his motives, his actions are so horrible that they put to shame whatever ideology he cooked up to justify them.

And I would agree.

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

I could view Szeth as a monster for agreeing to become a merciless mass murderer for the sake of obeying a ridiculous protocol involving people having a random rock in their possession.

I could see the argument for it, though I would disagree.

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

I could look at Tanavast as a monster for his role in murdering Adonalsium and imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram.

Since we don't know why he killed Adonalsium I'll refrain from judgement at the moment, just as I did for Jasnah and Aesudan. If it's the same lame excuses that Jasnah had I would agree.

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

If Sanderson has not intended to write entities like Ruin and Retribution as "gods of evil" in a naive fantasy-trope sense, I wonder that he would intend to write e.g. Jasnah as a "monster"?

Well Ruin and Retribution aren't evil anymore than gravity is, and I would hardly call such a trope naive. A bit more on topic I doubt Brandon intended for Jasnah to be a monster, as he says that Jasnah is the closest character to himself. The fact remains she preforms the actions of a monster.

29 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

@Frustration, I think that Jasnah is a more complex character than you're giving her credit for; in a certain sense she's a combination of master and slave morality—on one hand she's ruthless, powerful, self-sufficient, and amoral; on the other hand, she genuinely wants to do the greatest good. The former is why many people consider her to be a "monster", because it offends our modern sensibilities. But, by the standards of her society, this is perfectly acceptable, and even to be celebrated.

Given however, that Brandon ascribes to Christian morality, we can be sure that the latter side will win out.

It really isn't acceptable in her society. There's a reason Fen is so horrified when she found out, and why Jasnah went through so much effort to hide what she was doing.

[Returned he/him]

It seems to me that your condemnations of Jasnah are primarily around the targets of her actions more than the actions themselves. You don't care about her killing of the footpads, which she premeditated and carried out as an object lesson-- they were literally objectified by her whim and killed to no particular purpose. This strikes me as the single greatest example of Jasnah's "other people are tools to her" characteristic which you say revolts you. But you do care about her contemplated killings of Renarin and Aesudan, neither of whom she actually killed.

Aesudan really was what Jasnah worried she might be, as her reign in Kholinar demonstrated (especially, but not only, when Re-Shephir and Ashertmarn set up residence there). The timing is a fair caveat, I think. Aesudan certainly hadn't done anything on that scale when Jasnah was considering assassinating her. I think that @ParaTulip's observation that assassination-as-palace-intrigue-and-international-relations is true, though that doesn't necessarily give Jasnah a pass for doing it; that the Ghostbloods didn't much mind duelling assassins doesn't mean that we shouldn't. But Jasnah correctly identified as dangerous someone who went on to do tremendous damage to Alethkar, Kholinar, and humanity on Roshar. If it was fair, right, and good to kill Amaram or Torol Sadeas for that sort of thing, Aesudan doesn't seem beyond the pale. Except for the timing. But she didn't assassinate Aesudan after all anyways.

We can be more generous to Jasnah than you are with Renarin as well, if we care to. In the midst of an apocalyptic struggle with the continued existence of humankind on Roshar at stake, she deduced (correctly) that a person at the heart of the human defenses against extinction not only had been using a forbidden, evil power from the enemy (as they conceived of it) but that that person had been lying to them about it for an extended period while also having supernatural powers she didn't know much of anything about. She let the forbidden power bit slide, as did everyone else, but I can see how a person might prioritize the desperate struggle, dishonesty and secretiveness, unknown magical capabilities, and association with the enemy god over a personal relationship in a moment of extreme crisis. And, as above, she didn't kill him, and she didn't kill him because she continued to absorb and analyze information up until the point where she would have to make an irrevocable choice-- when she saw Renarin's emotion and acceptance of execution she determined that what she feared was not the case and didn't kill him.

I don't see any reason to think that Jasnah believes her family to be replaceable, nor anyone really, only that circumstances might require to happen things she otherwise would prefer not happen. If Renarin had been a spy for and servant of Odium, killing him might have been absolutely necessary for human survival. Chatting with him about it beforehand might have been a devastating mistake (compare, perhaps, with Kaladin not turning Moash in during his regicide scheme or killing him in Kholinar). She's committed to doing what she thinks is necessary, and failing to do those things because they would make her feel bad is a mistake she doesn't think that she, or the world, can bear.

Jasnah is hyper-rational and pragmatic without friendly charisma and manner (real or feigned) to offset it, so people tend to dislike her, which probably colors their perceptions of her all around. That doesn't mean she isn't a bad person, nor that she isn't a monster (though I would disagree with that latter one). Kelsier is largely the same in these ways, except that he does have the friendly charisma and manner (plus we get to see his emotional states, which humanizes him a lot). Given your apparent indifference to the killings in themselves, I can't help but think that your revulsion is more personal to Jasnah than anything else. It's her commitment to action for what she perceives as good, and lack of apparent emotion, that seem to be drawing your condemnation, not so much any of the things she actually does or how she does them. Even if she's not a good person, monster is an intense title to assign to someone for that.

Edited March 12 by Returned

[Frustration]

Just now, Returned said:

It seems to me that your condemnations of Jasnah are primarily around the targets of her actions more than the actions themselves. You don't care about her killing of the footpads, which she premeditated and carried out as an object lesson-- they were literally objectified by her whim and killed to no particular purpose. This strikes me as the single greatest example of Jasnah's "other people are tools to her" characteristic which you say revolts you. But you do care about her contemplated killings of Renarin and Aesudan, neither of whom she actually killed.

I don't care about them because they attacked her. Aesudan did nothing that warranted death, Renarin was on the ground crying, Fen was likewise guiltless. The footpads on the other hand were approaching Jasnah armed and with intent to cause harm, and potentially death.

That's what makes them different in my mind.

5 minutes ago, Returned said:

Aesudan really was what Jasnah worried she might be, as her reign in Kholinar demonstrated (especially, but not only, when Re-Shephir and Ashertmarn set up residence there). The timing is a fair caveat, I think. Aesudan certainly hadn't done anything on that scale when Jasnah was considering assassinating her. I think that @ParaTulip's observation that assassination-as-palace-intrigue-and-international-relations is true, though that doesn't necessarily give Jasnah a pass for doing it; that the Ghostbloods didn't much mind duelling assassins doesn't mean that we shouldn't. But Jasnah correctly identified as dangerous someone who went on to do tremendous damage to Alethkar, Kholinar, and humanity on Roshar. If it was fair, right, and good to kill Amaram or Torol Sadeas for that sort of thing, Aesudan doesn't seem beyond the pale. Except for the timing. But she didn't assassinate Aesudan after all anyways.

Yes, but Jasnah does not list those actions as reasons, probably because she didn't know about them. Her stated reasons were that Aesudan was power-hungry and Jasnah worried that she would destabalize the kingdom. Not that Aesudan would summon ancient spren and cause Kholinar to collapse, not that Aesudan would torture her own son. Jasnah was worried that Aesudan would be a threat to her own power.

8 minutes ago, Returned said:

We can be more generous to Jasnah than you are with Renarin as well, if we care to. In the midst of an apocalyptic struggle with the continued existence of humankind on Roshar at stake, she deduced (correctly) that a person at the heart of the human defenses against extinction not only had been using a forbidden, evil power from the enemy (as they conceived of it) but that that person had been lying to them about it for an extended period while also having supernatural powers she didn't know much of anything about. She let the forbidden power bit slide, as did everyone else, but I can see how a person might prioritize the desperate struggle, dishonesty and secretiveness, unknown magical capabilities, and association with the enemy god over a personal relationship in a moment of extreme crisis.

Renarin is on the ground crying, she has shardplate, and has known for her entire life that Renarin doesn't have it in him to hurt a cremling. This isn't someone she doesn't know, this is her harmless autistic cousin going through a clear mental breakdown. If Renarin hadn't looked at her and nodded she would have killed him right there, crying and without raising a hand to defend himself.

47 minutes ago, Returned said:

And, as above, she didn't kill him, and she didn't kill him because she continued to absorb and analyze information up until the point where she would have to make an irrevocable choice-- when she saw Renarin's emotion and acceptance of execution she determined that what she feared was not the case and didn't kill him.

As I said above, I don't think having the scope of your rifle on someone's head, and not pulling the trigger because of a car crash absolves you. That's still attempted murder.

48 minutes ago, Returned said:

Jasnah is hyper-rational and pragmatic without friendly charisma and manner (real or feigned) to offset it, so people tend to dislike her, which probably colors their perceptions of her all around. That doesn't mean she isn't a bad person, nor that she isn't a monster (though I would disagree with that latter one). Given your apparent indifference to the killings in themselves, I can't help but think that your revulsion is more personal to Jasnah than anything else.

I gave Jasnah a lot of patience. I didn't post anything like this after OB(though I probably should have about Renarin), and I waited until we got her reasoning before condemning her attempted assassination of Aesudan.

It's not just the killing, it's killing the innocent.

51 minutes ago, Returned said:

Kelsier is largely the same in these ways, except that he does have the friendly charisma and manner (plus we get to see his emotional states, which humanizes him a lot).

This is the Stormlight forum, so I'll leave that be.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

I feel as if there is some basic gaps in thinking here that I will try to bridge. This seems to be an issue of norms, and so I will appeal to what is at least in our world normal. @FrustrationYou spoke of how Jasnah's plotting is a reputational hazard, that it divides her from her allies. But even allies must plan for a possible future where they are enemies. War planning departments in major political powers will draft up plans for war against all of their peers; the USA and Canada both have war plans for if they must fight each other even though they have not been opposed for over two hundred years now. They do this because it is better to have a plan that is never needed than to be without a plan when it is needed.

I don't know why exactly Jasnah puts so much effort into planning assassinations instead of more general war planning, maybe she just never expected to actually be given martial authority because of the sexism of her society. However, I ask you to consider how you would feel if what Taravangian had held against her were invasion and subjugation plans she had drafted of other kingdoms. Such plans would entail the murder of individuals but this hypothetical Jasnah is now planning these deaths in the abstract. Does this change things?

Also, I think most of the people Jasnah has killed were singers. She did that whole "go out into battle with plate and sword, turn the enemy into smoke" thing. That horrified me to read. In that moment, I could see her as a monster. All voluntary soldiers are murderers.

[Returned he/him]

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

As I said above, I don't think having the scope of your rifle on someone's head, and not pulling the trigger because of a car crash absolves you. That's still attempted murder.

This doesn't seem to me to describe the situation at all, but I'm not sure I understand. What is the car crash in this analogy? Nothing removed Jasnah's ability to choose what to do. She thought she'd identified an undercover agent of Odium (one way or another), went to neutralize that agent, then determined that he wasn't such an agent, and so didn't kill him. Or, if you prefer, she was moved by a human, emotional reaction to Renarin's affect and didn't go through with what she thought needed to be done. She ended up thinking, feeling, and doing exactly what you suggest she ought to have thought, felt, and done in the first place-- remembered Renarin's personality and nature, talked to him, comforted him, committed to finding a way to work things out. But because she was ready to kill him if necessary you determine she's permanently condemned no matter what.

"Attempted murder" is trying to kill someone and failing, like a shot missing or a blow not being fatal, which is not at all what happened here. Going to a place with deadly intent is certainly fair. It's obvious that you give the factors behind that intent zero weight, even though the book goes to some trouble to lay them out, which is up to you (whether it's fair or not), but she did change her mind and not attempt to kill Renarin at all. To call it attempted murder is to accuse Jasnah of something she specifically didn't do and then condemn her for it. There's a parallel between that and how you describe her approach to Renarin in that sequence.

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's not just the killing, it's killing the innocent.

Is it, though? Dalinar killed an awful lot of innocent people (not just at Rathalas), but upthread you specifically absolve him because he felt bad about it later. That's why I suggested that it's the lack of emotional turmoil alone that seems to be the dividing line for you. You don't hope for a Dalinar-style redemption for Jasnah, though it seems that, to you, that was good enough for Dalinar. You stated that you hope she's brought to justice, which I took to mean you want her punished for her actions. I'm curious: do you regret that Dalinar is now beyond punishment, due to his regret, for his killing of innocents? Or, perhaps, do you feel that his inner turmoil was punishment enough? I presume you would be unhappy to see Jasnah undergo similar developments, but making such a presumption is probably not fair.

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

This is the Stormlight forum, so I'll leave that be.

I can appreciate not wanting to derail this thread into another Kelsier thread. You can say whether or not you see them as broad parallels for each other, or if you feel there are differences between them, as context but don't feel any pressure to do so on my account.

Edited March 12 by Returned

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

I feel as if there is some basic gaps in thinking here that I will try to bridge. This seems to be an issue of norms, and so I will appeal to what is at least in our world normal. @FrustrationYou spoke of how Jasnah's plotting is a reputational hazard, that it divides her from her allies. But even allies must plan for a possible future where they are enemies. War planning departments in major political powers will draft up plans for war against all of their peers; the USA and Canada both have war plans for if they must fight each other even though they have not been opposed for over two hundred years now. They do this because it is better to have a plan that is never needed than to be without a plan when it is needed.

No, they do that as practice for various military exercises, never as plans that would actually be implemented. Much less them actually preforming a military build up along the borders in preparation for an invasion.

45 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

I don't know why exactly Jasnah puts so much effort into planning assassinations instead of more general war planning, maybe she just never expected to actually be given martial authority because of the sexism of her society. However, I ask you to consider how you would feel if what Taravangian had held against her were invasion and subjugation plans she had drafted of other kingdoms. Such plans would entail the murder of individuals but this hypothetical Jasnah is now planning these deaths in the abstract. Does this change things?

Did she prepare to go through with these plans? Does she have agents in place to carry them out? Does she have the orders written up and only awaiting her signature?

If the answer is yes to these, as it was with the assassinations, then yes, she's still a monster.

45 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Also, I think most of the people Jasnah has killed were singers. She did that whole "go out into battle with plate and sword, turn the enemy into smoke" thing. That horrified me to read. In that moment, I could see her as a monster. All voluntary soldiers are murderers.

That's objectively not true. Some might be killers perhaps, but certainly not murderers, especially those who never see combat.

15 minutes ago, Returned said:

This doesn't seem to me to describe the situation at all, but I'm not sure I understand. What is the car crash in this analogy? Nothing removed Jasnah's ability to choose what to do. She thought she'd identified an undercover agent of Odium (one way or another), went to neutralize that agent, then determined that he wasn't such an agent, and so didn't kill him. Or, if you prefer, she was moved by a human, emotional reaction to Renarin's affect and didn't go through with what she thought needed to be done. She ended up thinking, feeling, and doing exactly what you suggest she ought to have thought, felt, and done in the first place-- remembered Renarin's personality and nature, talked to him, comforted him, committed to finding a way to work things out. But because she was ready to kill him if necessary she's permanently condemned no matter what.

The car crash is some outside event free from Jasnah's control that doesn't stop her, but causes reconsideration. With Aesudan it's Ivory bonding Jasnah, with Renarin it's him nodding.

That's the problem, for Jasnah it's kill people first ask questions later. Her first reaction was not to ask questions or to confront Renarin, it was to kill him. That she switched from option one to option two, does not in my mind negate the fact that killing was her go to response.

15 minutes ago, Returned said:

"Attempted murder" is trying to kill someone and failing, like a shot missing or a blow not being fatal, which is not at all what happened here. Going to a place with deadly intent is certainly fair. It's obvious that you give the factors behind that intent zero weight, even though the book goes to some trouble to lay them out, which is up to you (whether it's fair or not), but she did change her mind and not attempt to kill Renarin at all. To call it attempted murder is to accuse Jasnah of something she specifically didn't do and then condemn her for it.

She very much did attempt to kill him. She had summoned her shardblade and had it raised to swing. That she stopped doesn't change the fact that she did try to kill him. She did do that.

15 minutes ago, Returned said:

Is it, though? Dalinar killed an awful lot of innocent people (not just at Rathalas), but upthread you specifically absolve him because he felt bad about it later.

I did not absolve him for feeling bad later, though I can see how it might have come across like that. I used it to draw a distinction between Dalinat and Jasnah, while both have done terrible things, Dalinar regrets it. Jasnah doesn't. What in my mind absolves Dalinar was that he changed to the point that he was no longer the same person who did those acts.

15 minutes ago, Returned said:

You don't hope for a Dalinar-style redemption for Jasnah, though it seems that, to you, that was good enough for Dalinar. You stated that you hope she's brought to justice, which I took to mean you want her punished for her actions. I'm curious: do you regret that Dalinar is now beyond punishment, due to his regret, for his killing of innocents? Or, perhaps, do you feel that his inner turmoil was punishment enough? I presume you would be unhappy to see Jasnah undergo similar developments, but making such a presumption is probably not fair.

Well I'd be unhappy because we have already seen it happen and it would just be a repeat, not out of any offended sense of justice or anything. That one is more of a narrative desire than anything.

Edited March 12 by Frustration

[Schizoposting]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

It really isn't acceptable in her society. There's a reason Fen is so horrified when she found out, and why Jasnah went through so much effort to hide what she was doing.

In Alethi society backstabbing and assassination is perfectly normal, just look at the reaction to the Blackthorn or Sadeas. But regardless, to possess master morality means to be indifferent to the opinions of others—Jasnah couldn't care less about what you, or anyone else, may think of her. 

Regarding the footpads, I think this the only thing that Jasnah has done that's genuinely indefensible—even if they did threaten her, she could have trivially incapacitated them, using her powers, instead of killing them. She was essentially playing out the fascist fantasy of gunning down criminals.

[Returned he/him]

44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's the problem, for Jasnah it's kill people first ask questions later. Her first reaction was not to ask questions or to confront Renarin, it was to kill him. That she switched from option one to option two, does not in my mind negate the fact that killing was her go to response. [...]

I did not absolve him for feeling bad later, though I can see how it might have come across like that. I used it to draw a distinction between Dalinat and Jasnah, while both have done terrible things, Dalinar regrets it. Jasnah doesn't. What in my mind absolves Dalinar was that he changed to the point that he was no longer the same person who did those acts. [...]

Well I'd be unhappy because we have already seen it happen and it would just be a repeat, not out of any offended sense of justice or anything. That one is more of a narrative desire than anything.

That's all reasonable, thank you for expanding. I understand your position much better now.

44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

She very much did attempt to kill him. She had summoned her shardblade and had it raised to swing. That she stopped doesn't change the fact that she did try to kill him. She did do that.

I don't think there's much point in discussing this much further. But this is, straight-up, not what attempted murder is. Attempted murder is the doing the thing that kills but not accomplishing the killing. It's not preparation for doing that thing, nor intending to do that thing. No one is killed by a raised sword, only by a sword strike/thrust/other term for the sword being moved to proximately cause harm to someone. In choosing not to strike, she chose not to try to kill him. It is true that the fact she stopped doesn't change that she was preparing to kill him, but it does mean that she did not attempt to kill him.

That doesn't mean that the intent or preparation are acceptable or good, or even necessarily better than an attempt (though I do make that distinction, I don't insist that anyone else does). But the one is not the other.

Edited March 12 by Returned

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

In Alethi society backstabbing and assassination is perfectly normal, just look at the reaction to the Blackthorn or Sadeas.

When did they attempt to assassinate anyone?

The closest I can think of was the guy who tried to drop Dalinar into the chasms, but I don't recall if they found out Sadeas was the one who hired him.

16 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

But regardless, to possess master morality means to be indifferent to the opinions of others—Jasnah couldn't care less about what you, or anyone else, may think of her. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I'm not trying to change Jasnah's mind, because she isn't real. Her not caring about what other people think does not change the fact that she's a terrible person.

I'm guessing there's something more, but I'm going to have to ask you to explain.

19 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Regarding the footpads, I think this the only thing that Jasnah has done that's genuinely indefensible—even if they did threaten her, she could have trivially incapacitated them, using her powers, instead of killing them. She was essentially playing out the fascist fantasy of gunning down criminals.

I've had that discussion before(shoot that would have been five years ago now) but any way to capture them would require a great deal of effort to not kill or severely injure them, and then Taravangian would have had them executed anyway.

18 minutes ago, Returned said:

That's all reasonable, thank you for expanding. I understand your position much better now.

Thank you for understanding

18 minutes ago, Returned said:

I don't think there's much point in discussing this much further. But this is, straight-up, not what attempted murder is. Attempted murder is the doing the thing that kills but not accomplishing the killing. It's not preparation for doing that thing, nor intending to do that thing. No one is killed by a raised sword, only by a sword strike/thrust/other term for the sword being moved to proximately cause harm to someone. In choosing not to strike, she chose not to try to kill him. It is true that the fact she stopped doesn't change that she was preparing to kill him, but it does mean that she did not attempt to kill him.

That doesn't mean that the intent or preparation are acceptable or good, or even necessarily better than an attempt (though I do make that distinction, I don't insist that anyone else does). But the one is not the other.

That depends on what you mean by attempted murder. If like I do you go by someone trying to murder another then yes it counts. If you prefer a strictly legalistic definition if becomes a bit more of a stretch, but one I believe can still apply. If we moved Jasnah to the real world and gave her a gun, and police came in on her pointing it at Renarin she would be arrested and may well be charged with attempted murder depending on the DA.

[Immortal Platypus]

2 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

All voluntary soldiers are murderers.

1) Murderers and killers are different. There is a reason we have different words for them. Everyone who kills someone is a killer, not everyone who kills someone is a murderer. 2) not all voluntary soldiers serve in combat roles. Not all voluntary soldiers have killed people, let alone murdered them.

38 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

In Alethi society backstabbing and assassination is perfectly normal, just look at the reaction to the Blackthorn or Sadeas. But regardless, to possess master morality means to be indifferent to the opinions of others—Jasnah couldn't care less about what you, or anyone else, may think of her. 

Backstabbing is normal, assassination is not. there's a reason that Sadeas abandoned Dalinar at the Tower instead of hiring an assassin to kill him. One is acceptable, one isn't. I can't think of anyone the Blackthorn or Sadeas assassinated (it might have happened, but it certainly wasn't a common thing). 

[Schizoposting]

2 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

1) Murderers and killers are different. There is a reason we have different words for them. Everyone who kills someone is a killer, not everyone who kills someone is a murderer. 2) not all voluntary soldiers serve in combat roles. Not all voluntary soldiers have killed people, let alone murdered them.

Backstabbing is normal, assassination is not. there's a reason that Sadeas abandoned Dalinar at the Tower instead of hiring an assassin to kill him. One is acceptable, one isn't. I can't think of anyone the Blackthorn or Sadeas assassinated (it might have happened, but it certainly wasn't a common thing). 

Dalinar/Gavilar experienced numerous assassination attempts during the war of unification, and nobody thought that this was particularly immoral. The whole point of Dalinar's arc in TWoK was that Alethi society had forsaken honor and become decadent.

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I'm not trying to change Jasnah's mind, because she isn't real. Her not caring about what other people think does not change the fact that she's a terrible person.

I'm guessing there's something more, but I'm going to have to ask you to explain.

If by "terrible person" you mean "does not follow my Christian morality", then you'd be correct. But your moral standards are not the only ones—by standards of Master morality, Jasnahs actions are perfectly acceptable.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Dalinar/Gavilar experienced numerous assassination attempts during the war of unification, and nobody thought that this was particularly immoral. The whole point of Dalinar's arc in TWoK was that Alethi society had forsaken honor and become decadent.

One assassination attempt, and one which even Sadeas said was cowardly and unbecoming.

10 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

If by "terrible person" you mean "does not follow my Christian morality", then you'd be correct. But your moral standards are not the only ones—by standards of Master morality, Jasnahs actions are perfectly acceptable.

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of Neitzche.

Well that's too kind of a way to put it, but I'll leave it at that.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

37 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

1) Murderers and killers are different. There is a reason we have different words for them. Everyone who kills someone is a killer, not everyone who kills someone is a murderer. 2) not all voluntary soldiers serve in combat roles. Not all voluntary soldiers have killed people, let alone murdered them.

I will allow the minor point that they are either murderers or accessories to such, for the point about non combat roles. But no, enlistment means choosing a path that includes either killing or being one to enable those who do. I believe in a radical freedom, but also a terrible responsibility. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

No, they do that as practice for various military exercises, never as plans that would actually be implemented. Much less them actually preforming a military build up along the borders in preparation for an invasion.

Those plans are not mere training exercises. I think you believe in a different reality of how states operate than I do. I see now this gap cannot be bridged.

[Immortal Platypus]

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

Dalinar/Gavilar experienced numerous assassination attempts during the war of unification, and nobody thought that this was particularly immoral. The whole point of Dalinar's arc in TWoK was that Alethi society had forsaken honor and become decadent.

Frustration responded to this, I agree with what he said, and the only thing I will add is that decadent doesn't = approving of assassination

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

I will allow the minor point that they are either murderers or accessories to such, for the point about non combat roles. But no, enlistment means choosing a path that includes either killing or being one to enable those who do. I believe in a radical freedom, but also a terrible responsibility. 

do you think that killing and murdering are the same thing? I don't.

[MrHobbes343]

I hope one day to have the charmed life you all seem to judge from.

 

Jasnah is not a Utilatarian as she claims and is a hypocrite at almost every turn, but so are all people I have met. Ideals are rarefied pure things that no person I've ever met can claim to be worthy of.

 

She hires assassins to defend her family from enemies and infiltration, she kills bandits and plans to kill disloyal allies. I hate to inform you, but our society does this now, we have powerful agencies to watch and take information from our allies and enemies. And occasionally those agencies do kill people for the safety and benefit of the state you live in. 

There is not and has never been a morally pure state. All State power is derived from the threat or use of violence. A State is defined by it's monopoly on violence in it's territory.

 

Jasnah as a member of the ruling family of a Monarchy is thus by dint of berth exposed not to ideal intellectual political philosophy, but to realpolitik. In a world were your father killed his way to the top less then a lifetime ago you are going to have a rather brutal view of the political machine and the example set for you is that violence works and is rewarded if used correctly. When Renarin was possibly controlled by an enemy god you might want to cut off the limb before it rots the tree, even if some of the original man is left for now.

 

We are examining and judging from a perspective of lore-masters from a great distance and with much more information then any of the characters. To judge them from our safety and with all our well organized data is to expect that everyone should act as we do now, even without the social structures or institutions that provide a foundation of  great distance and safety that allow most of us to avoid hard moral questions in our lives now.

 

Edit: An S

Edited March 12 by MrHobbes343

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

do you think that killing and murdering are the same thing? I don't.

I believe the difference is about the conditions under which the choice is made to take lethal actions. I anticipate that any response which can express my views on this matter fully and without excessive references that are unread to the audience in this forum would be to speak about the nature of volition, choice, moral goodness as a category, and I would have to say Immanuel Kant multiple times.

But I put a lot of weight on the voluntary part of what I said. I can accept people who cannot accept death and must instead kill to survive, but only if I also believe in the path to get there as being involuntary.

@MrHobbes343I believe I do largely agree with you. The state as an instrument of social formation has all of these problems. Jasnah was born literally as Gavilar started to decide "Actually, I would like to have a hereditary monarchy state with a warrior noble aristocracy instead of just other people's stuff.". I commend Jasnah for trying to introduce democracy and get rid of the warrior noble caste system. The caste system is seemingly what causes Moashs, and I think we can all agree that guy is just miserable.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, MrHobbes343 said:

She hires assassins to defend her family from enemies and infiltration, she kills bandits and plans to kill disloyal allies. I hate to inform you, but our society does this now, we have powerful agencies to watch and take information from our allies and enemies. And occasionally those agencies do kill people for the safety and benefit of the state you live in.

And I condemn them for being a terrible stain upon the human race.

1 hour ago, MrHobbes343 said:

There is not and has never been a morally pure state. All State power is derived from the threat or use of violence. A State is defined by it's monopoly on violence in it's territory.

We're getting a little too close to politics here, so I'll just say I disagree and move on.

1 hour ago, MrHobbes343 said:

Jasnah as a member of the ruling family of a Monarchy is thus by dint of berth exposed not to ideal intellectual political philosophy, but to realpolitik. In a world were your father killed his way to the top less then a lifetime ago you are going to have a rather brutal view of the political machine and the example set for you is that violence works and is rewarded if used correctly. When Renarin was possibly controlled by an enemy god you might want to cut off the limb before it rots the tree, even if some of the original man is left for now.

We are examining and judging from a perspective of lore-masters from a great distance and with much more information then any of the characters. To judge them from our safety and with all our well organized data is to expect that everyone should act as we do now, even without the social structures or institutions that provide a foundation of  great distance and safety that allow most of us to avoid hard moral questions in our lives now.

 

I would have to disagree, the knowledge of the cosmere we have actually highlights the dangers of what Renarin and Aesudan were doing to levels Jasnah could not possibly have known.

Even within the limits of what Jasnah knew what she did and planned to do was extreme. Even Dalinar who built the system you use as an excuse for her would not have taken such actions. If it had been Dalinar dealing with either Aesudan or Renarin he would speak to them, try to understand and reason with them. We even see this in his dealings with Fen in OB. When she refuses him his first reaction isn't to send Kaladin over to kill her, it isn't to conquer Theylanah, it's negotiation and understanding.

Now he did beat up Elhokar, but that was done with the express purpose of teaching him that Dalinar WASN'T trying to kill him.

I honestly could see Jasnah killing Elhokar in WoK to get him out of the way.

If even soldiers like Kaladin and Dalinar regularly find more humane and peaceable ways to settle their disputes than Jasnah does, I have to say that doesn't reflect well on her.

9 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

 

@MrHobbes343I believe I do largely agree with you. The state as an instrument of social formation has all of these problems. Jasnah was born literally as Gavilar started to decide "Actually, I would like to have a hereditary monarchy state with a warrior noble aristocracy instead of just other people's stuff.". I commend Jasnah for trying to introduce democracy and get rid of the warrior noble caste system. The caste system is seemingly what causes Moashs, and I think we can all agree that guy is just miserable.

Moash was a product of his own choices. He can blame the lighteyes all he wants, but the only feet that walked his path were his own.