Is dragon investiture independent of the Shards?

[Sythrin]

Brandon once mentioned that all Investiture originates from Adanalsium and after his shattering every investiture that is in the cosmere is assigned to one of the Shards. But dragons seem to get their investiture directly from spiritual realm.

Did he change his mind and dragons are independent or is their investiture bound in a capacity to one of the shards?

[alder24]

17 hours ago, Sythrin said:

Brandon once mentioned that all Investiture originates from Adanalsium and after his shattering every investiture that is in the cosmere is assigned to one of the Shards. But dragons seem to get their investiture directly from spiritual realm.

Did he change his mind and dragons are independent or is their investiture bound in a capacity to one of the shards?

Not all investiture originated from Adonalsium. Aethers and Dawnshards are independent, Aethers are even claiming that they predate Adonalsium. TLM ch 42:

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“Both less and more than a god,” he explained. “Silajana is one of the primal aethers. They predate Adonalsium, you know, and exist outside of his power.”

 

Spoiler

ChromatiCaos

You said that all Investiture got assigned to a Shard when Adonalsium got Shattered, which Investiture do the Dawnshards draw from? What about the aethers?

Brandon Sanderson

Dawnshards and aethers both predate the Shattering, and the rules don't apply to them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

From IotE I got an impression that dragons were created by Adonalsium and it would mean they were affected by the Shattering. They might be equally invested by every Shard and they might draw investiture from every Shard directly from the Spiritual Realm. I don't think them drawing investiture directly from SR means they can't be associated with Shards. Shardic investiture is everywhere and it permeates Cosmere whether Shards want it or not. Or dragons are like Aethers and rules don't apply to them for whatever reason.

[lacrossedeamon]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not all investiture originated from Adonalsium. Aethers and Dawnshards are independent, Aethers are even claiming that they predate Adonalsium.

Claiming and being are two different things, unreliable narrator and all that. Also Dawnshards are implied to be the Commands Adonalsium created to form the universe thus not independent.

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Claiming and being are two different things, unreliable narrator and all that. Also Dawnshards are implied to be the Commands Adonalsium created to form the universe thus not independent.

Yes, claiming and being isn't the same and there is a lot of uncertainty about it, but the WoB confirms that both Aethers and Dawnshards weren't associated to Shards after the Shattering. Dragons might be the same for the same reason. And even if all three were created by Adonalsium, there might be something special about them that made them independent from Adonalsium and prevented their investiture from being associated with Shards.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, claiming and being isn't the same and there is a lot of uncertainty about it, but the WoB confirms that both Aethers and Dawnshards weren't associated to Shards after the Shattering. Dragons might be the same for the same reason. And even if all three were created by Adonalsium, there might be something special about them that made them independent from Adonalsium and prevented their investiture from being associated with Shards.

I would say "being created by Adonalsium" and "independent from Adonalsium" are mutually exclusive.

[Nitpicking]

Dragons are older than the Shattering, and there are lots of remnants of Adonalsium's power around that aren't directly of any Shard, notably The Wind, as met in Wind And Truth. I don't see why the Dragons can't continue to have Investiture directly from Adonalsium, just like The Night does on Roshar.

[bmcclure7]

On 7/19/2025 at 6:01 AM, alder24 said:

Not all investiture originated from Adonalsium. Aethers and Dawnshards are independent, Aethers are even claiming that they predate Adonalsium. TLM ch 42:

 

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ChromatiCaos

You said that all Investiture got assigned to a Shard when Adonalsium got Shattered, which Investiture do the Dawnshards draw from? What about the aethers?

Brandon Sanderson

Dawnshards and aethers both predate the Shattering, and the rules don't apply to them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

From IotE I got an impression that dragons were created by Adonalsium and it would mean they were affected by the Shattering. They might be equally invested by every Shard and they might draw investiture from every Shard directly from the Spiritual Realm. I don't think them drawing investiture directly from SR means they can't be associated with Shards. Shardic investiture is everywhere and it permeates Cosmere whether Shards want it or not. Or dragons are like Aethers and rules don't apply to them for whatever reason.

Wrong the dawn shards are literal commands of Adonalsum . The Aether’s claim a lot of things that dosent make it true. 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong the dawn shards are literal commands of Adonalsum . The Aether’s claim a lot of things that dosent make it true. 

Not wrong. The Dawnshards are Commands used by Adonalsium, but at the same time they are independent of his power as they weren't affected by the Shattering and weren't associated with Shards like all other investiture was. As for claims made by Aethers, you're right, but the same goes for claims made about Adonalsium - we don't know what's true or false as there is no reliable source of information. But the fact remains that Aethers, just like Dawnshards are separate from Shards, they weren't affected by the Shattering.

[Jult]

On 7/18/2025 at 1:30 PM, Sythrin said:

Brandon once mentioned that all Investiture originates from Adanalsium and after his shattering every investiture that is in the cosmere is assigned to one of the Shards. But dragons seem to get their investiture directly from spiritual realm.

Did he change his mind and dragons are independent or is their investiture bound in a capacity to one of the shards?

I think you are referring to this WoB:

Spoiler

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Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Based on this, it sounds like dragons should at the very least be Connected to some of the Shards. But that doesn't mean they are being directly controlled by a Shard. Preservation doesn't control all life despite having a Connection to it.

There's another WoB on the Spren of Roshar that feels relevant here:

Spoiler

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Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

It seems to me that beings who pre-date the Shattering maintained their Connections to the portions of Adonalsium (Shards) that they were already Connected to. This is probably why Cultivation felt such a strong affinity for Roshar and the Spren in the first place.

An important side note here: most Invested beings that we know of were created by Adonalsium pre-Shattering.

The Shards seem to have the ability to influence these pre-Shattering entities, but my guess would be that it gets harder to alter Adonalsium's Intent (capital I) from when he created these beings based on how heavily Invested they are. So, humans are easier to affect than Spren, and Spren are easier to affect than dragons. If that's correct, then dragons are probably just so heavily Invested that it's not worth the effort for a Shard to try taking advantage of their Connection.