Does Emberdark confirm a longstanding Cosmere Theory?

[Doviebear]

I'm referring to the theory that the Iriali are in fact a Splinter of Virtuosity, and that after they complete their Long Trail they will reform into the full shard Virtuosity again.

While reading IotE, this line from Ed the Arcanist piqued my interest:

“Might be some remnant of Ambition, and no one knows where Virtuosity is these days. Hell, it could have been Dominion or any number of other Shards that can no longer explain what they did."

What does he mean that nobody knows where Virtuosity is? Don't they know the shard is splintered?

I feel like this leads to a couple of possibilities:

 

1. Ed is talking about her Splintering in an obtuse way.

This seems least likely to me, since he then goes on to talk about Dominion and other Shards that can't explain what they did, presumably because they were Splintered. Virtuosity is obviously not in this category.

 

2. Ed and Arcanists of the time don't even know that Virtuosity was Splintered.

This also seems kinda far-fetched. Hoid obviously knows that she was Splintered as of Yumi, and also indicates there's a Scadrian space station in the vicinity of Komashi. (Iron Seven Waystation). It seems wild that at the Cosmere aware stage that Scadrial is in at that point that they don't know about Virtuosity Splintering herself while also inhabiting the area where she did.

 

3. Something happened between Yumi and IotE and Virtuosity reappeared and then prompted disappeared herself.

Maybe something like the completion of the Iriali Long Trail? We know that Roshar is the 4th world, and there's a strong chance that Scadrial is the 5th, since people matching Iriali traits are described in Era 2, after SA5.

We also know that they were on Lumar 300 years before Tress is set, and that at the time that Tress is happening they are currently on First of the Sun. They were on Roshar for longer than 300 years and Tress is after Roshar in the timeline, so they must've gone to Lumar after Roshar, but before First of the Sun. So Lumar is 6th, First of the Sun is 7th, and then sometime after Tress but before IotE the Long Trail is completed and Virtuosity is reformed, an event that Arcanists are sure to be aware of.

Thus when Ed refers to Virtuosity she is not Splintered but disappeared as she hides for some reason or other.

 

Am I missing something? I know it's a lot to infer from one line, but it just seems very out of place from an extremely Cosmere aware character like an Arcanist.

TLDR; Did the Iriali already reform into the shard Virtuosity?

 

[Use the Falchion]

I've honestly never heard that the Iriali were the part of the Shard of Virtuosity in any regard, but interesting theory! 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I love the Iriali as the missing hue for Virtuosity. I hope it is true. 

[Isilel]

13 minutes ago, Doviebear said:

there's a strong chance that Scadrial is the 5th, since people matching Iriali traits are described in Era 2, after SA5.

 

I don't think so. Emberdark confirmed something that I had postulated long ago - namely that Iriali send out scouts into the cosmere before they chose where to migrate as a people. So, small groups of Iriali could be encountered anywhere. 

The timeline for their soujorn in every "land" after Roshar would be unreasonably short if they went to Scadrial, then Lumar, then left from there 3 centuries before Tress.

The Herdazian member of Bridge 4 Huio from the Stormlight Archive is still alive, after all. Unless he became yet another quasi immortal dude, even between time dilation on Roshar and time dilation in Silverlight, there couldn't have been more than 5-6 centuries cosmere standard time between the ending of the first half of SLA and Emberdark.

Also the Eelakin on the First of the Sun aren't Iriali at all. Iriali have metallic golden hair, golden-hued skin and IIRC yellow eyes. There was a theory that they might have mixed ancestry, some of it being Iriali, like Rirans on Roshar, but they are certainly not part of the main migration and First of the Sun isn't a "land" on the Long Trail. Iriali scouts checked it out sometime in the distant past, hence the map, but they didn't find it suitable.

Concerning the Splintering of Virtuosity, there seem to be 2 kinds of it. One of which is when a Shard just creates splinters, while the other is enemy action. Voluntarily creating splinters doesn't kill the Vessel or disable a Shard. Maybe Virtuosity just did the first, though somewhat more extensively than Honor and Cultivation did when creating spren. And yes, IMHO the Iriali are her splinters.

 

[Jult]

25 minutes ago, Doviebear said:

at the time that Tress is happening they are currently on First of the Sun.

Did I miss this somewhere? How do we know they were on First of the Sun during Tress? Not saying it couldn't be true, but how did we rule out First of the Sun as the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd world?

[Doviebear]

9 minutes ago, Jult said:

Did I miss this somewhere? How do we know they were on First of the Sun during Tress? Not saying it couldn't be true, but how did we rule out First of the Sun as the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd world?

Y'know I'm looking back through Tress and I'm actually not finding any evidence for that. I could've swore I remember reading that theory somewhere, with some quote from Tress that makes it seem like the audience is Iriali, but I think I've got that wrong. The audience is definitely from First of the Sun but I don't see any evidence it's Iriali.

That being said, even though the timeline is kinda tight, and even if we don't know about any of the other lands the Iriali went to, I still find it odd Ed would refer to Virtuosity that way.

[teknopathetic he/him]

12 minutes ago, Jult said:

Did I miss this somewhere? How do we know they were on First of the Sun during Tress? Not saying it couldn't be true, but how did we rule out First of the Sun as the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd world?

 I don't think First of the Sun is any of the main stops on the trail. We learn that the Iriali looked at First of the Sun, but deemed it an unacceptable option to make as a new home. It is a rare piece of the tapestry because they didn't actually stay there very long and hasn't been that key to the tapestry after all these years; it was basically a layover. 

Edited July 15, 2025 by teknopathetic

[lacrossedeamon]

7 is Autonomy's number so I think the Iriali are related to Autonomy rather than Virtuosity. We also need an original builder for the Diem HQ on Taldain. Also the Iriali seeming have been traveling a long time. I'm not sure it makes sense for Virtuosity to have splintered herself that early. I think the Iriali are some weird expression on one of Autonomy's avatars. Like maybe an avatar can splinter itself?

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, Doviebear said:

I'm referring to the theory that the Iriali are in fact a Splinter of Virtuosity, and that after they complete their Long Trail they will reform into the full shard Virtuosity again.

While reading IotE, this line from Ed the Arcanist piqued my interest:

“Might be some remnant of Ambition, and no one knows where Virtuosity is these days. Hell, it could have been Dominion or any number of other Shards that can no longer explain what they did."

What does he mean that nobody knows where Virtuosity is? Don't they know the shard is splintered?

I feel like this leads to a couple of possibilities:

 

1. Ed is talking about her Splintering in an obtuse way.

This seems least likely to me, since he then goes on to talk about Dominion and other Shards that can't explain what they did, presumably because they were Splintered. Virtuosity is obviously not in this category.

 

2. Ed and Arcanists of the time don't even know that Virtuosity was Splintered.

This also seems kinda far-fetched. Hoid obviously knows that she was Splintered as of Yumi, and also indicates there's a Scadrian space station in the vicinity of Komashi. (Iron Seven Waystation). It seems wild that at the Cosmere aware stage that Scadrial is in at that point that they don't know about Virtuosity Splintering herself while also inhabiting the area where she did.

 

3. Something happened between Yumi and IotE and Virtuosity reappeared and then prompted disappeared herself.

Maybe something like the completion of the Iriali Long Trail? We know that Roshar is the 4th world, and there's a strong chance that Scadrial is the 5th, since people matching Iriali traits are described in Era 2, after SA5.

We also know that they were on Lumar 300 years before Tress is set, and that at the time that Tress is happening they are currently on First of the Sun. They were on Roshar for longer than 300 years and Tress is after Roshar in the timeline, so they must've gone to Lumar after Roshar, but before First of the Sun. So Lumar is 6th, First of the Sun is 7th, and then sometime after Tress but before IotE the Long Trail is completed and Virtuosity is reformed, an event that Arcanists are sure to be aware of.

Thus when Ed refers to Virtuosity she is not Splintered but disappeared as she hides for some reason or other.

 

Am I missing something? I know it's a lot to infer from one line, but it just seems very out of place from an extremely Cosmere aware character like an Arcanist.

TLDR; Did the Iriali already reform into the shard Virtuosity?

 

In truth- I think Virtuosity didn't actually Splinter herself. She splintered some of her investiture off here, but didn't commit divine suicide. She's not grouped in with the other dead shards, so I doubt she's dead.

[Jult]

38 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

 I don't think First of the Sun is any of the main stops on the trail. We learn that the Iriali looked at First of the Sun, but deemed it an unacceptable option to make as a new home. It is a rare piece of the tapestry because they didn't actually stay there very long and hasn't been that key to the tapestry after all these years; it was basically a layover. 

That does make sense to me. So, they really could have been there at any time. Re-reading the section where Ed explains the tapestry now. It sounds like the tapestry is complete. As in the Long Trail is over.

2 hours ago, Doviebear said:

Did the Iriali already reform into the shard Virtuosity?

Well, definitely not all of them did. Since there are still many Iriali running around in the book. 

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

7 is Autonomy's number so I think the Iriali are related to Autonomy rather than Virtuosity. We also need an original builder for the Diem HQ on Taldain. Also the Iriali seeming have been traveling a long time. I'm not sure it makes sense for Virtuosity to have splintered herself that early. I think the Iriali are some weird expression on one of Autonomy's avatars. Like maybe an avatar can splinter itself?

I believe Autonomy's number is 8 (8 Sand Master ranks, 8 professions, and 8 Taishin council members). But the Long Trail could maybe be considered 7 Worlds PLUS wherever the Iriali started if you wanted to make 8 for Autonomy work.

The Iriali working for Autonomy would explain how she got so many Avatars on so many planets (including Patji on First of the Sun). 

[lacrossedeamon]

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

I believe Autonomy's number is 8 (8 Sand Master ranks, 8 professions, and 8 Taishin council members). But the Long Trail could maybe be considered 7 Worlds PLUS wherever the Iriali started if you wanted to make 8 for Autonomy work.

The Iriali working for Autonomy would explain how she got so many Avatars on so many planets (including Patji on First of the Sun). 

7 sandmaster ranks (lord mastrell doesn't count per Khriss's journal), 7 denominations of their currency, Eye if Ridos pulses every 7 orbits, implied 7 colors of starmarks, 7 ranks in shu dereth (if you subscribe to that theory), 8 professions (but the Diem is kinda weird).

[Jult]

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

7 sandmaster ranks (lord mastrell doesn't count per Khriss's journal), 7 denominations of their currency, Eye if Ridos pulses every 7 orbits, implied 7 colors of starmarks, 7 ranks in shu dereth (if you subscribe to that theory), 8 professions (but the Diem is kinda weird).

I stand corrected. Also, I do subscribe to the Shu Dereth theories.

[lacrossedeamon]

Until this book and making the connection with Autonomy's number I did think the Iriali could be splinters of Virtuosity, especially after Hoid's comments in WaT. But I have since shifted gears.

3 hours ago, Doviebear said:

TLDR; Did the Iriali already reform into the shard Virtuosity?

Also we all missed the obvious no. We meet Iriali in the main narrative of IotE so clearly they have not reformed.

[teknopathetic he/him]

18 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Until this book and making the connection with Autonomy's number I did think the Iriali could be splinters of Virtuosity, especially after Hoid's comments in WaT. But I have since shifted gears.

Also we all missed the obvious no. We meet Iriali in the main narrative of IotE so clearly they have not reformed.

Surly there are branches or Irali, right? I doubt every single Iriali on Roshar decided to take up the call and leave the planet. We would also have Iriali in cities like Kolinar that were physically unable to leave on the long trail. We also get people like Evi that are mixed Iriali ethnically, so would have a strange place in the pecking order. Heck, space faring Irali also form a huge issue for this as the people aren't even confined to the same planet anymore. What does the long trail even look like if people are working off world?

I would assume each time there is a change of worlds, splinter groups form. There may be core Iriali on the trail and spinter ethnic Irali that have stepped off the trail. 

Edited July 15, 2025 by teknopathetic

[lacrossedeamon]

24 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Surly there are branches or Irali, right? I doubt every single Iriali on Roshar decided to take up the call and leave the planet. We would also have Iriali in cities like Kolinar that were physically unable to leave on the long trail. We also get people like Evi that are mixed Iriali ethnically, so would have a strange place in the pecking order. Heck, space faring Irali also form a huge issue for this as the people aren't even confined to the same planet anymore. What does the long trail even look like if people are working off world?

I would assume each time there is a change of worlds, splinter groups form. There may be core Iriali on the trail and spinter ethnic Irali that have stepped off the trail. 

I believe there is the possibility for multiple populations of Iriali on different Long Trails with different sets of Seven Lands. And in the possibly that any given group is not a monolith and can have members either willingly or unluckily left behind as well as gain other people who have married in.  But I don't know what any of that or what you said has to do with my previous comment.

[teknopathetic he/him]

17 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I believe there is the possibility for multiple populations of Iriali on different Long Trails with different sets of Seven Lands. And in the possibly that any given group is not a monolith and can have members either willingly or unluckily left behind as well as gain other people who have married in.  But I don't know what any of that or what you said has to do with my previous comment.

Just because we meet Irali does not mean the Iriali have not reformed into The One. The space group we met could be ethnically Irali but not a part of the main branch that reformed into The One. It is kind of like seeing someone looks to be ethnically arabic in ancestry, but you aren't sure if they are a practicing muslim. That sort of thing. 

Edited July 15, 2025 by teknopathetic

[Isilel]

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Until this book and making the connection with Autonomy's number I did think the Iriali could be splinters of Virtuosity, especially after Hoid's comments in WaT.

 

There is this WoB that IMHO pretty conclusively refutes the notion that Iriali could be Autonomy's splinters or followers:

I bet that "slightly connected" is due to their scouting The First of the Sun, but ultimately discarding the idea of settling there.

 

 

Quote

 

Solfor (paraphrased)

So the Iriali, their religion, the whole the One breaking themselves into the many to experience the universe. You also have Autonomy breaking themselves into many avatars. So I was wondering is Autonomy connected to the Iriali in any meaningful way.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So are the Iriali connected to Autonomy in a meaningful way? 

I'd say no. I mean they're slightly connected, but in a meaningful way, no, they're not connected.

Autonomy did not start the Iriali religion.

DragonCon 2019 (Sept. 2, 2019)

 

 

[lacrossedeamon]

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Just because we meet Irali does not mean the Iriali have not reformed into The One. The space group we met could be ethnically Irali but not a part of the main branch that reformed into The One. It is kind of like seeing someone looks to be ethnically arabic in ancestry, but you aren't sure if they are a practicing muslim. That sort of thing. 

I feel like reforming is gunna need all of the investiture back before it can be redistributed.

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

There is this WoB that IMHO pretty conclusively refutes the notion that Iriali could be Autonomy's splinters or followers:

I bet that "slightly connected" is due to their scouting The First of the Sun, but ultimately discarding the idea of settling there.

Hmm interesting. I feel like there is too much that points to a connection currently for me to completely drop the notion. But I'll keep this in mind. I wonder if Brandon changed his mind or brain farted and was thinking Ambition or something (although there's an idea now).