[Discuss] Crystal Hemalurgy!

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

Alright I did a quick search and didn't get anything, but if I missed it and this has already been created, please tell me.

 

Alright, now for Vyre, the Crystal Inquisitor. Here's my theory on how it works: 

• There is a theory that Odium created the Unmade, or at least some of them, by corrupting splinters of other Shards, notably the ones he's slain.
• I believe that Taravangian figured out how to unmake entire Invested Arts, creating an Odium version of Hemalurgy
• I think that they are crystals here instead of metals because Scadrial's magic is all metal-based and Roshar features crystals for a lot of things (holding stormlight, trapping spren, etc)
• Various types of crytals can have different abilities. Because of Roshar being different from Scadrial, I believe there are 9 types.

So, does this mean Retribution can unmake other magic systems too?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Just a quick note, Taravangian/Retribution was not the one who discovered the Crystal Spikes, the Herald Battar was. Taravangian specifically sought her out both because she's a bribable Herald and because she knew how to use the Crystal Spikes.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

9 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Just a quick note, Taravangian/Retribution was not the one who discovered the Crystal Spikes, the Herald Battar was. Taravangian specifically sought her out both because she's a bribable Herald and because she knew how to use the Crystal Spikes.

I'd forgotten about that. Well, how did she know? If she only told Todium how to do it, then it suggests that it was already possible. Either that or Battar somehow created it.

How, then, was this Invested Art created? Were there any other mentions of possible Crystal Hemalurgists other than Vyre? Is there a way for an ordinary person to create magic systems?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

53 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

I'd forgotten about that. Well, how did she know? If she only told Todium how to do it, then it suggests that it was already possible. Either that or Battar somehow created it.

How, then, was this Invested Art created? Were there any other mentions of possible Crystal Hemalurgists other than Vyre? Is there a way for an ordinary person to create magic systems?

I doubt that anyone consciously created this. It's like how some abilities have popped up across the Cosmere, Lightweaving, Seeking, Copperclouds, they all have different variants across different worlds. This is likely just a variant of Hemalurgy, created at the same time as Hemalurgy itself.

Each Invested Art is said, as per WOB, to be like new physics introduced into the Cosmere. They become new rules and paths for Investiture to be channeled through.

Maye Battar just found out about Hemalurgy, maybe with off-world contacts, and began to study it.

Actually, purely chronologically, Ishar is the first person we've seen use it, when Szeth was younger and back in Shinovar, Ishar used Crystal Spikes to pin Spren to walls. So Battar could have picked it up from Ishar. Who himself could have learned it through... I dunno... some kind of Bondsmith experiments or something? He was full on plum loco by that point so it's hard to know what was going through his head when he started pinning spren to walls and giving them fleshy bodies.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/Him]

4 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Alright I did a quick search and didn't get anything, but if I missed it and this has already been created, please tell me.

 

Alright, now for Vyre, the Crystal Inquisitor. Here's my theory on how it works: 

• There is a theory that Odium created the Unmade, or at least some of them, by corrupting splinters of other Shards, notably the ones he's slain.
• I believe that Taravangian figured out how to unmake entire Invested Arts, creating an Odium version of Hemalurgy
• I think that they are crystals here instead of metals because Scadrial's magic is all metal-based and Roshar features crystals for a lot of things (holding stormlight, trapping spren, etc)
• Various types of crytals can have different abilities. Because of Roshar being different from Scadrial, I believe there are 9 types.

So, does this mean Retribution can unmake other magic systems too?

I think that he used some sort of twisted Hemalurgy to give a gemheart to Vyre to make him a fused.

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Alright I did a quick search and didn't get anything, but if I missed it and this has already been created, please tell me.

 

Alright, now for Vyre, the Crystal Inquisitor. Here's my theory on how it works: 

• There is a theory that Odium created the Unmade, or at least some of them, by corrupting splinters of other Shards, notably the ones he's slain.
• I believe that Taravangian figured out how to unmake entire Invested Arts, creating an Odium version of Hemalurgy
• I think that they are crystals here instead of metals because Scadrial's magic is all metal-based and Roshar features crystals for a lot of things (holding stormlight, trapping spren, etc)
• Various types of crytals can have different abilities. Because of Roshar being different from Scadrial, I believe there are 9 types.

So, does this mean Retribution can unmake other magic systems too?

My own thought process right now is that crystal Hemalurgy isn't a formal MoI like the Metallic Arts or Surgebinding are, but more a natural circumstance of Investiture. 

For example, enough Investiture dumped into any object and given enough time will eventually Awaken it as a natural consequence of how Investiture works. I think this crystal spike usage is the same, where a Spiritweb plugged into the body of a host in the right places (perhaps in this case using Spren captured in gemstones, as gemstones are a focus for certain Rosharan Investitures) will cause changes even without a MoI tied to a Shard.

If you're interested, I explored this concept a bit further in another thread.

 

[alder24]

Hemalurgy exists naturally in the Cosmere and it's more similar to Lightweaving. They both manifest differently in different invested arts, being filtered by the world and Shards present in the system. Rosharan Hemalurgy manifests with crystals while Scadrian with metals, but they are both Hemalurgy. No unmaking happened, Rosharan Hemalurgy was there already, it just has been discovered by Ishar and Battar. 

Spoiler

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts.

Brandon Sanderson

There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do

So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well.

Questioner

And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Exactly. You are correct.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

Hemalurgy, at least the Metallic Art requires spiking someone else first, I would theorise to "steal" the part of their spiritweb that gives them access to a specific ability and transfer it to the next spiked person. The crystal Hemalurgy could work in much of the same way, with Odium finding someone with those abilities and transferring them to Vyre. 

The other way I could think of is that while spiked, it is described that someone has a "hole" in their soul, which is seen in the example of Mistborn to allow Ruin easier access to a person. It could simply be that Odium is doing the same thing, and then using that access to directly give Vyre the abilities he is seen with. 

[Jult]

On 7/9/2025 at 8:00 AM, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

I'd forgotten about that. Well, how did she know? If she only told Todium how to do it, then it suggests that it was already possible. Either that or Battar somehow created it.

On 7/9/2025 at 9:03 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Maye Battar just found out about Hemalurgy, maybe with off-world contacts, and began to study it.

There's a WoB that makes me suspicious of any new powers that resemble other systems:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

There's a similarity between Sand Mastery using water out of someone's body, as well as the spores on...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Intentional connection.

Questioner

Is it a luhel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that a certain Shard in the cosmere likes to mimic other magic systems.

Questioner

Have we seen said Shard before?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you have.

Dragonsteel Nexus 2024 (Dec. 5, 2024)

Obviously, he's referring to Autonomy. Who is no stranger to Scadrial's magic systems.

I know 95% of the time we see recurring powers it's just 2 systems naturally reaching similar abilities (like Rosharan vs Yolish Lightweaving). But after seeing that WoB, I do always have to ask if Bavadin could be involved.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

5 hours ago, Jult said:

There's a WoB that makes me suspicious of any new powers that resemble other systems:

  Hide contents

 

Obviously, he's referring to Autonomy. Who is no stranger to Scadrial's magic systems.

I know 95% of the time we see recurring powers it's just 2 systems naturally reaching similar abilities (like Rosharan vs Yolish Lightweaving). But after seeing that WoB, I do always have to ask if Bavadin could be involved.

And there's also a WoB stating that Autonomy was somehow involved with Odium's splintering of Aona and Skai... so Autonomy could actually be allied with Odium!

5 hours ago, Ashkaloda said:

Hemalurgy, at least the Metallic Art requires spiking someone else first, I would theorise to "steal" the part of their spiritweb that gives them access to a specific ability and transfer it to the next spiked person. The crystal Hemalurgy could work in much of the same way, with Odium finding someone with those abilities and transferring them to Vyre. 

The other way I could think of is that while spiked, it is described that someone has a "hole" in their soul, which is seen in the example of Mistborn to allow Ruin easier access to a person. It could simply be that Odium is doing the same thing, and then using that access to directly give Vyre the abilities he is seen with. 

If this is the case, then the spikes themselves don't have any power... is there any indication in the books as to what kind of crystals these are?

[Trusk'our he/him]

58 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

And there's also a WoB stating that Autonomy was somehow involved with Odium's splintering of Aona and Skai... so Autonomy could actually be allied with Odium!

Indeed, it appears Autonomy has had at least one deal with Odium in the past.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479-dragonsteel-mini-con-2021/#e15137

Double

Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list?

Brandon Sanderson

He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them.

 

[Rorzikel]

While reminiscent of Hemalurgy, I don't think this is really a new, separate magic system on Roshar. However you categorize things like fabrials and gemheart bonds, this seems to be an extension of that system. It is kind of a merger, artificially trapping spren in crystal like fabrials do but then involving a living body like a gemheart bond.

I wonder if Yelig-nar should be counted as part of this? Amaram had to swallow a gem after all.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I think it's the same system as what El is doing. If we look at the Essence table we find that Lucentia = The Eyes and Foil = The Nails, and Moash's eyes were replaced with gems while El's carapace is replaced with metal. (Carapace isn't exactly fingernails, but irl they're both usually keratin on vertebrates, they both fulfill the same role of hard cover over skin, we see with the Herdazians' special fingernails that genetically they seem to work through the same pathways, and indeed for at least some forms their fingernails are carapace, so I'm comfortable proposing that for singers they might be perceived as conceptually the same thing.)

Could be Voidbinding, but my guess is it's the third "series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings" alluded to by the Ars Arcanum.

On 7/11/2025 at 9:18 PM, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

If this is the case, then the spikes themselves don't have any power... is there any indication in the books as to what kind of crystals these are?

Diamonds, which notably in Essential Theology are associated with the eyes.

On 7/14/2025 at 12:22 AM, Rorzikel said:

While reminiscent of Hemalurgy, I don't think this is really a new, separate magic system on Roshar. However you categorize things like fabrials and gemheart bonds, this seems to be an extension of that system. It is kind of a merger, artificially trapping spren in crystal like fabrials do but then involving a living body like a gemheart bond.

My theory is actually compatible with this, since we've been told fabrials are part of the third system (though they seem to be in a grey area on whether they fully count or not).

Spoiler

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

Spoiler

Dunkelheit

Khriss mentions in the Ars Arcanum that her research suggests another set of abilities more esoteric than the [Voidbindings]. You have said before that the only magic we haven't really seen is Voidbinding, but you have also said that no one has used Cultivation magic on-screen (not counting boons and curses). Is this other set of esoteric abilities Cultivation's magic, and is it called Lifebinding?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! What a great question! What an excellent question.

Remember that when I originally conceived The Stormlight Archive, I was thinking of thirty magic systems. And I decided that that was instead three groups of ten, and I wasn't going to call it thirty magic systems. And indeed, that's even vague, because are fabrials their own magic system? What is going on? But anyway, who knows. RAFO!

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it's the same system as what El is doing. If we look at the Essence table we find that Lucentia = The Eyes and Foil = The Nails, and Moash's eyes were replaced with gems while El's carapace is replaced with metal. (Carapace isn't exactly fingernails, but irl they're both usually keratin on vertebrates, they both fulfill the same role of hard cover over skin, we see with the Herdazians' special fingernails that genetically they seem to work through the same pathways, and indeed for at least some forms their fingernails are carapace, so I'm comfortable proposing that for singers they might be perceived as conceptually the same thing.)

Could be Voidbinding, but my guess is it's the third "series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings" alluded to by the Ars Arcanum.

Diamonds, which notably in Essential Theology are associated with the eyes.

My theory is actually compatible with this, since we've been told fabrials are part of the third system (though they seem to be in a grey area on whether they fully count or not).

  Hide contents

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

  Hide contents

Dunkelheit

Khriss mentions in the Ars Arcanum that her research suggests another set of abilities more esoteric than the [Voidbindings]. You have said before that the only magic we haven't really seen is Voidbinding, but you have also said that no one has used Cultivation magic on-screen (not counting boons and curses). Is this other set of esoteric abilities Cultivation's magic, and is it called Lifebinding?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! What a great question! What an excellent question.

Remember that when I originally conceived The Stormlight Archive, I was thinking of thirty magic systems. And I decided that that was instead three groups of ten, and I wasn't going to call it thirty magic systems. And indeed, that's even vague, because are fabrials their own magic system? What is going on? But anyway, who knows. RAFO!

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Hmm... thinking about it how, ancient fabrials (ones that can grant Surges) feel a little like Hemalurgy, with how Hemalurgy can steal from Allomancy and Feruchemy. So maybe the spikes are like modern fabrials but with a kind of spren that can grant Investiture-vision.

[Rorzikel]

On 7/17/2025 at 3:29 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it's the same system as what El is doing. If we look at the Essence table we find that Lucentia = The Eyes and Foil = The Nails, and Moash's eyes were replaced with gems while El's carapace is replaced with metal. (Carapace isn't exactly fingernails, but irl they're both usually keratin on vertebrates, they both fulfill the same role of hard cover over skin, we see with the Herdazians' special fingernails that genetically they seem to work through the same pathways, and indeed for at least some forms their fingernails are carapace, so I'm comfortable proposing that for singers they might be perceived as conceptually the same thing.)

Could be Voidbinding, but my guess is it's the third "series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings" alluded to by the Ars Arcanum.

Diamonds, which notably in Essential Theology are associated with the eyes.

My theory is actually compatible with this, since we've been told fabrials are part of the third system (though they seem to be in a grey area on whether they fully count or not).

"It's, it's... By God, it's the Ars Arcanum Body Focuses with a steel chair!"

The only question I'd have there is what determines what gets swapped in. With Moash he's getting diamonds in the eyes (polestone replacing its body focus), but El would be using Foil/metal for "the Nails"/carapace (essence replacing body focus), not pieces of amethyst. Maybe there's flexibility for polestone or essence standing in for a body part.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

"It's, it's... By God, it's the Ars Arcanum Body Focuses with a steel chair!"

The only question I'd have there is what determines what gets swapped in. With Moash he's getting diamonds in the eyes (polestone replacing its body focus), but El would be using Foil/metal for "the Nails"/carapace (essence replacing body focus), not pieces of amethyst. Maybe there's flexibility for polestone or essence standing in for a body part.

Crystals (Lucentia) are the Essence that lines up with "The Eyes", the fact it's specifically a diamond is icing on the cake.

[Rorzikel]

57 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Crystals (Lucentia) are the Essence that lines up with "The Eyes", the fact it's specifically a diamond is icing on the cake.

My mistake, I thought it was just glass.