Other animals with Aviar abilities

[Belgarad]

Just to be clear, there is nothing stopping someone from feeding their dog the magic worms from Patji and then gaining magic powers right?  I mean if it works for birds why wouldn't it work with other animals?  Which leads to one inevitable conclusion for the space age of the Cosmere...Lasercats!!

[lacrossedeamon]

Assumedly there is a specific symbiotic relationship going on here that was coevolved, seemingly for birds. Not sure it would carry over to felines or canines (at least the latter are on First of the Sun though). There is implication that the powers (in general, not specific) pass through trophic levels though when Dusk eats the skullsnake so who knows.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Belgarad said:

Just to be clear, there is nothing stopping someone from feeding their dog the magic worms from Patji and then gaining magic powers right?  I mean if it works for birds why wouldn't it work with other animals?  Which leads to one inevitable conclusion for the space age of the Cosmere...Lasercats!!

47 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Assumedly there is a specific symbiotic relationship going on here that was coevolved, seemingly for birds. Not sure it would carry over to felines or canines (at least the latter are on First of the Sun though). There is implication that the powers (in general, not specific) pass through trophic levels though when Dusk eats the skullsnake so who knows.

Note - the Patji worms are not the only method for this to take place. A very similar realmatic effect takes place in teh Purelake on Roshar with the Fish. 

Spoiler

WoK Interlude 1:

Quote

“There’s a kolgril in the bucket for you,” he noted. “Caught it early this morning.”

Her stout face grew uncertain. A kolgril was a very lucky fish. Cured aching joints for a good month after you ate it, and sometimes let you see when friends were going to visit by letting you read the shapes of the clouds. Maib had quite a fondness for them, on account of the finger aches Nu Ralik had sent her. 

<snip>

Now, perhaps I could find you a fish that could locate him.” Ishikk rubbed his stubbly chin. “I’ll bet a stumpy cort could do it. 

WoB: 

Quote

Kogiopsis

Are there any parallels between the fish in the Purelake and the Aviar in Sixth of the Dusk?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

[lacrossedeamon]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Note - the Patji worms are not the only method for this to take place. A very similar realmatic effect takes place in teh Purelake on Roshar with the Fish. 

Yeah but we don't really know what's going on with the fish, whether it's innate or via some sort symbiosis. We don't know the specific parallels.

And honestly the worms are all kinds of weird with the implication that they metamorphosis into a cognitive entities for the adult stage of their life cycle. There's also the possibility that Brandon is Orson Scott Carding here.

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Yeah but we don't really know what's going on with the fish, whether it's innate or via some sort symbiosis. We don't know the specific parallels.

No, but we do have more data points. In the Pure Lake, ingesting an invested fish results in abilities or effects that last as long as the investiture you ingested does. Same was true for Dusk, ingesting the invested skullsnake meat (and more so when he ingested worm paste directly). 

IED CH 33:

Spoiler

The steak was good. Less fishy, more hearty, like pork. It would even sustain the birds in a pinch. They were technically omnivores, though he’d never heard of an Aviar besides Sak liking meat other than a worm here and there.

He cooked up a few more steaks, as they’d keep better that way, and then tried eating a piece of the glowing strip—just to see what it was like. Tasted worse, more leathery.

<snip>

Stillness.

Beautiful nothing.

Calm serenity.

Thrum.

Dusk’s eyes snapped open.

Thrum.

<snip>

His eyes fell on the slightly bloodied tarp he’d rolled up and hung from the side of the boat to dry. He’d eaten the meat.

From pool, to worms, to birds. The light transfers to each one who eats it.

Father… It couldn’t…

It couldn’t be that simple, could it?

He scrambled for the jar of worm paste, which he’d secured to its spot before turning in. He wrenched it out, the glow lighting his hand, making his fingers ruddily transparent. The birds squawked at his sudden motion.

He dipped a finger in, then—bracing himself—ate the paste. The flavor was foul, of course. He forced it down with some fresh water, then waited. Long enough that he felt foolish. Was he going mad? Dining on mashed-up worms, used as a stain for the hull of—

Thrum.

Thrum.

THRUM.

 

[RedBlue]

I have to assume that the Aviars gaining powers is contingent on the worms being alive inside them. If it were as simple as eating an invested animal and gaining abilities, we would see people and animals doing that in other contexts. Like with the skullsnake.

It seems unlikely that the worms could survive inside a dog or cat, but it’s worth testing for the Eelakin. If I were them, I’d start by testing other birds, and then other reptiles, as closer relatives seem more likely to be capable of a similar symbiosis with the worm.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I have to assume that the Aviars gaining powers is contingent on the worms being alive inside them. If it were as simple as eating an invested animal and gaining abilities, we would see people and animals doing that in other contexts. Like with the skullsnake.

Concur - the implication I took from the text was that the worms are a symbiotic lifeform with the birds (and that process does not extend to humans) - but the temporary effects of the Purelake Fish and what Dusk experiences are similar and related, but not the same. 

WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Sixth of the Dusk, the Aviar, they [ate all those worms]. What happens if someone else eats the worms on Patji? Do they get powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Has-- It doesn’t work for a human. They’ve tried that. But there might be something more there.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

[Nitpicking]

We know that Eelakin eating live worms doesn't work, because somewhere or other it's mentioned (a WoB? Can't remember). I wouldn't expect it to work for any mammal, nor for cold-blooded reptiles, but that's just intuition.

[lacrossedeamon]

While nightmaws are avian, we also have meekers (mammal) and deepwalkers (crustacean?) with cognitive abilities.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

While nightmaws are avian, we also have meekers (mammal) and deepwalkers (crustacean?) with cognitive abilities.

But they also appear on all of the Pantheon Islands, so these abilities cannot only be limited to beings encountering the worms at/from the Perpendicularity. More likely, the worms are what allow such abilities to be shared with a Bond, but native Pantheon Life normally has some level of Cognitive Awareness. 

[lacrossedeamon]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But they also appear on all of the Pantheon Islands, so these abilities cannot only be limited to beings encountering the worms at/from the Perpendicularity. More likely, the worms are what allow such abilities to be shared with a Bond, but native Pantheon Life normally has some level of Cognitive Awareness. 

Still implied to be reliant on investiture getting into the food chain somehow though

[teknopathetic he/him]

Other animals seem to be more intelligent or have some slight abilities as well. I wonder if the worms grant effects up the entire food chain. Predators that eat the birds gain some powers etc all throughout the foodchain. 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

I wonder how this will work on animals with other ability to use Investiture? Like some Rosharan Crustaceans, maybe Whitespine? They will counter each other? Or animal will gain new power and resonans?

[BinarySecond]

I will have a Smoker Whitespine. I will have this in my Cosmere or I will see it reduced to ashes around me.

[QuantumAce]

On 7/7/2025 at 7:59 PM, Treamayne said:

Concur - the implication I took from the text was that the worms are a symbiotic lifeform with the birds (and that process does not extend to humans) - but the temporary effects of the Purelake Fish and what Dusk experiences are similar and related, but not the same. 

What if they just haven't tried the right worm? I mean, it would be negligent to not cultivate and infect a series of "volunteers" with a variety of parasites. 

 

13 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

I will have a Smoker Whitespine. I will have this in my Cosmere or I will see it reduced to ashes around me.

I would still rather see a Ryshadium Edgedancer. 

[BinarySecond]

11 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

What if they just haven't tried the right worm? I mean, it would be negligent to not cultivate and infect a series of "volunteers" with a variety of parasites. 

 

I would still rather see a Ryshadium Edgedancer. 

 

[i’m in the details]

I think it’s worth noting that when dusk eats the snake and the paste he gains the Wayfinder ability that is inherent to trappers. Presumably unkeyed dor would have the same effect. That is his invested art not an effect provided by either the snake or the paste. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ability to consume investiture in this manner is limited to trappers and people like Lift. 
 

if this is the case, then the pure lake fish are something different, granting anyone different abilities based on the fish. Otherwise Dusk would likely have gained cognitive abilities from the animals he presumably ate on the island.  As cool as the idea is that anyone can consume invested animals for their power, I find it more likely that most creatures consumed would likely have the effect of temporarily granting breath like effects, or perhaps fuel for whatever invested art they possess. 

[lacrossedeamon]

On 8/8/2025 at 6:18 AM, i’m in the details said:

I think it’s worth noting that when dusk eats the snake and the paste he gains the Wayfinder ability that is inherent to trappers. Presumably unkeyed dor would have the same effect. That is his invested art not an effect provided by either the snake or the paste. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ability to consume investiture in this manner is limited to trappers and people like Lift. 

Basically all invested people have the ability to consume more investiture. We see mistings and aetherbounds do it in TLM. Lift's weirdness isn't in being able to consume investiture it's that she can metabolize actual food into investiture. If you could unkey worm paste I think Radiants or Awakeners could use it by eating it as well.

[BinarySecond]

On 8/17/2025 at 6:03 AM, lacrossedeamon said:

unkey worm paste

At this point Brandon could be mocking us and we'd never realise.

[lacrossedeamon]

23 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

At this point Brandon could be mocking us and we'd never realise.

Actually thinking about it, while there might be a method after the fact, I think the easiest way to get unkeyed worm paste (truly what a phrase) would be for the investiture the worms are metabolizing to already be unkeyed.

[Lesser spren]

I said this in another thread, but perhaps for the worms to have an effect, they need to be seen by the fauna as part of Patji's ecosystem. Like Zellion was adopted into Canticle. You spend enough time surviving on the island, and you are viewed as part of it, rather than an outsider.

[Aekiel2]

I think the worm paste doesn't convey powers, it's just a means of gaining Investiture that can be used later. Similar to Stormlight. The worms likely need to parasitise the host to actively grant powers rather than just Investiture, which is probably limited to certain animals and those that eat them.

I think the trappers gain their powers through proving themselves to Patji, or potentially through the initiation ceremony that inducts a new trapper. That's very in line with how Autonomy tends to grant power.

[Xanpheon]

On 11/3/2025 at 2:03 AM, Lesser spren said:

I said this in another thread, but perhaps for the worms to have an effect, they need to be seen by the fauna as part of Patji's ecosystem. Like Zellion was adopted into Canticle. You spend enough time surviving on the island, and you are viewed as part of it, rather than an outsider.

This is interesting, but I'm not sure this is true. 

The Dor is kind of an odd-one-out in terms of how the magic systems it powers are very location dependent. Most other systems of magic we see are not location dependent in the same way, just planet dependent. A good example of this is Taldain, with Star Marks and Sand Mastery. Nominally, each power is limited to one side of the planet - but at the end of White Sand 3, Baon receives a test and becomes a Sand Master.

As Patji is a splinter of Autonomy, and the shard affects the availability and initiation into a magic system and less the body of the system, it's more likely that it's a case of biology rather than intent.

[Nitpicking]

On 11/12/2025 at 5:53 AM, Xanpheon said:

This is interesting, but I'm not sure this is true. 

The Dor is kind of an odd-one-out in terms of how the magic systems it powers are very location dependent. Most other systems of magic we see are not location dependent in the same way, just planet dependent. A good example of this is Taldain, with Star Marks and Sand Mastery. Nominally, each power is limited to one side of the planet - but at the end of White Sand 3, Baon receives a test and becomes a Sand Master.

As Patji is a splinter of Autonomy, and the shard affects the availability and initiation into a magic system and less the body of the system, it's more likely that it's a case of biology rather than intent.

Taldain magic isn't location dependent, it's just that the source of Investiture for Sand Mastery (at least) is sunlight, which is only available on Dayside. It's vaguely implied that Sand Mastery is inherited sort of like Allomancy, isn't it?

[Treamayne]

18 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Taldain magic isn't location dependent, it's just that the source of Investiture for Sand Mastery (at least) is sunlight, which is only available on Dayside. It's vaguely implied that Sand Mastery is inherited sort of like Allomancy, isn't it?

We see at the beginning that they believe there is an element of heredity, but we also see that subverted by the end with Baon. Darkside's Starmarks also seem to be, at least in part, fueled by sunlight* - it's just that it's the light from Ridos, and manifests as a weekly pulse rather than 24/7 daylight. 

Spoiler

Unknown if this is just visible light pulse, UV, some other EM emission or a combination. 

Hope that helps