Lift's Heritage (Crackpot Warning)

[Jult]

Came very close to hijacking @Nitpicking's topic on Vasher (Uh oh for Vasher), but I thought I'd be getting WAY too off topic. Still, let it be known that I blame Nitpicking for the fact that I'm digging through Arcanum and Coppermind entries this late at night . I basically came across a few different (but possibly connected) facts while reading about Vasher and Nalthis in general that I now have thoughts on.

Fact 1: Vasher and Shashara were on Roshar least once before they created Nightblood (Nightblood is an "unsuccessful" attempt at creating an Awakener's version of a Shardblade).

Thoughts: Based on a WoB where Brandon didn't seem very sure if there was overlap between Vasher's previous visit(s) and the Sunmaker's crusade, I think it's safe to say that Vasher was on Roshar post-Recreance but not in Alethkar. I also think that he met Nale during this time. This is speculation based on the fact that Nightblood wound up in Nale's possession by the time of WoR. And also because the Skybreakers would have had the only 'living' Shardblades during the time of Vasher's visit; which would have been better inspiration for Nightblood's creation than a 'dead' blade.

 

Fact 2: Growing your hair with the Royal Locks makes you hungry (according to Siri). There's a WoB about this where someone points out this is similar to how Lift's abilities work.

Thoughts: This is where I'm going to start sounding crazy. But I'm wondering if Lift's weird ability to metabolize food into Investiture doesn't 100% come from Cultivation's boon. What if Lift is descended from Shashara? We know she's been to Roshar and that her brother has the Royal Locks. I don't see why she couldn't have had a child while she was there. It would also add a bit of an interesting element to Lift's upcoming mentorship from Vasher. I'm sure some of you are already thinking "if she had the Royal Locks, then her hair would change color". But would it? Isn't "not changing" the boon that she asked for? Maybe Cultivation simply kept the 'input' for her Royal Lock powers the same and only altered the 'output'.

 

Side note: I know there's WoBs saying it is just a coincidence that Vasher once went by the name Kalad; which is very similar to Kalak/Kaladin. And that Shashara being similar to Shallash/Shallan is also a coincidence... But I don't buy it. Once is a coincidence. But twice? I don't know about that.

 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Jult said:

Fact 1: Vasher and Shashara were on Roshar least once before they created Nightblood (Nightblood is an "unsuccessful" attempt at creating an Awakener's version of a Shardblade).

Thoughts: Based on a WoB where Brandon didn't seem very sure if there was overlap between Vasher's previous visit(s) and the Sunmaker's crusade, I think it's safe to say that Vasher was on Roshar post-Recreance but not in Alethkar. I also think that he met Nale during this time. This is speculation based on the fact that Nightblood wound up in Nale's possession by the time of WoR. And also because the Skybreakers would have had the only 'living' Shardblades during the time of Vasher's visit; which would have been better inspiration for Nightblood's creation than a 'dead' blade.

Your idea with Skybreakers sounds possible as well. However, this WoB implies Vasher saw Honorblades, which means they probably went to Shinovar:

Spoiler

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

We also know that 5 years before SA, Nightblood might have been in hands of the Nightwatcher, as she offered Dalinar a sword that fits Nightblood's description. It seems that Nale didn't get Nightblood directly from Vasher but from the Nightwacher instead. OB ch 114:

Quote

Perhaps it is possessions you wish, she said. Spheres, gemstones. Shards. A Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. I can give it to you.

 

6 hours ago, Jult said:

Fact 2: Growing your hair with the Royal Locks makes you hungry (according to Siri). There's a WoB about this where someone points out this is similar to how Lift's abilities work.

Thoughts: This is where I'm going to start sounding crazy. But I'm wondering if Lift's weird ability to metabolize food into Investiture doesn't 100% come from Cultivation's boon. What if Lift is descended from Shashara? We know she's been to Roshar and that her brother has the Royal Locks. I don't see why she couldn't have had a child while she was there. It would also add a bit of an interesting element to Lift's upcoming mentorship from Vasher. I'm sure some of you are already thinking "if she had the Royal Locks, then her hair would change color". But would it? Isn't "not changing" the boon that she asked for? Maybe Cultivation simply kept the 'input' for her Royal Lock powers the same and only altered the 'output'.

They both work by the same mechanism, converting physical mass into something else. In the Royal Locks case, you're converting your body's energy stores into hair, in Lift's case she is converting mass into pure investiture. This doesn't mean that Lift has the Royal Locks, just that she is using the same mechanism to gain investiture.

Why Vasher and Shashara couldn't have had a child on Roshar? We know it's very hard for Returned to have a kid and we don't know if Vasher knows how to do it. Also, it would be really bad parenting if they left their kid on Roshar instead of taking them back home. Although, they could have stayed on Roshar until their kid grew up.

As for Lift's hair not changing color, does Cultivation's boon work well? No. Lift is changing, she is growing up, she's taller and is developing as a woman. The boon doesn't work as Lift'd hoped. If the boon can't stop Lift from growing up, it wouldn't stop Lift's hair from changing color, at least during the most emotional moments in her life - and we've seen quite a few of those and there was no change in her hair at all. 

[Nitpicking]

Also, the Royal Locks are only inherited by the heir and the heir's children. Lift wasn't the heir to a kingdom. Unless you mean Kalad's kingdom on Nalthis somehow.

It would also be weird for Edgli's gift of Breath-related magic to work for a native-born Rosharan. Also her appearance doesn't match. Vasher seems to appear caucasian. Lift is darker-skinned and has the classic Reshi round face.

[Isilel]

13 hours ago, Jult said:

if Lift's weird ability to metabolize food into Investiture doesn't 100% come from Cultivation's boon. What if Lift is descended from Shashara?

 

If the Returned could metabolise food into investiture, they wouldn't need to consume Breaths every week to survive. So, we can be pretty sure that this ability of Lift's couldn't have come from any Returned ancestors.

[Jult]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

We also know that 5 years before SA, Nightblood might have been in hands of the Nightwatcher, as she offered Dalinar a sword that fits Nightblood's description. It seems that Nale didn't get Nightblood directly from Vasher but from the Nightwacher instead. OB ch 114:

That's actually something I completely forgot. But if Vasher and the Nightwatcher have met, then it could explain why Cultivation understood what Lift was (assuming the rest of this crazy theory holds any weight..)

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

They both work by the same mechanism, converting physical mass into something else. In the Royal Locks case, you're converting your body's energy stores into hair, in Lift's case she is converting mass into pure investiture. This doesn't mean that Lift has the Royal Locks, just that she is using the same mechanism to gain investiture.

This sounds like you don't think the Royal Locks are at all related to Investiture? I think they have to be some kind of Investiture-related ability. I think Siri converts mass into pure Investiture that is then used to grow hair.  

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Why Vasher and Shashara couldn't have had a child on Roshar? We know it's very hard for Returned to have a kid and we don't know if Vasher knows how to do it. Also, it would be really bad parenting if they left their kid on Roshar instead of taking them back home. Although, they could have stayed on Roshar until their kid grew up.

I never actually said I think Vasher was the father. I mean he's the obvious choice, but it could have been someone else. Shashara is the parent that really matters since she has the Royal Locks:

Spoiler

Quote

BeskarKomrk

You said in the Warbreaker annotations that Denth has the Royal Locks separate from being a Returned, as part of the royal line. Does Shashara also have the royal locks?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… That would be a valid guess.

Footnote: Denth having the royal locks independently is from a Reddit AMA, not the annotations (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4112)
Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

As for Lift's hair not changing color, does Cultivation's boon work well? No. Lift is changing, she is growing up, she's taller and is developing as a woman. The boon doesn't work as Lift'd hoped. If the boon can't stop Lift from growing up, it wouldn't stop Lift's hair from changing color, at least during the most emotional moments in her life - and we've seen quite a few of those and there was no change in her hair at all.

I think Cultivation's boon does work. I just don't think it's what Lift had in mind when she asked for it. I'm proposing that, instead of stopping Lift's growth, Cultivation "re-wired" the Royal Locks system to still use the same input of food, but allows her to use the Investiture she creates from that food to do things other than growing hair. It's Cultivation granting the wording of wish, but not in the way Lift wanted. Like some kind of genie or monkey's paw.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

10 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Also, the Royal Locks are only inherited by the heir and the heir's children. Lift wasn't the heir to a kingdom. Unless you mean Kalad's kingdom on Nalthis somehow.

It would also be weird for Edgli's gift of Breath-related magic to work for a native-born Rosharan. Also her appearance doesn't match. Vasher seems to appear caucasian. Lift is darker-skinned and has the classic Reshi round face.

Right. Per the WoB above, Shashara is part of the Royal bloodline. So, her offspring would be too. I should have included that WoB in my initial post. Also, whether or not Vasher is the father, this would have been centuries ago (like 500 years ago if it was during the Sunmaker's reign). Their child would be Lift's great-great-great-great-great grandparent. There would have been plenty of time to get some melanin into the bloodline.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

If the Returned could metabolise food into investiture, they wouldn't need to consume Breaths every week to survive. So, we can be pretty sure that this ability of Lift's couldn't have come from any Returned ancestors.

It's not about being a Returned. It's about having the Royal Locks; which are separate from the Breath system.  

 

P.S. Sorry for addressing everyone at once in a giant message. It just seemed like the easiest path.

[Nitpicking]

Brandon commented on this idea in 2017:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e8879

The Royal Locks are only inherited by the children of the actual monarch. Not descendants, only his/her children. Vivenna's children won't have the Royal Locks, because she isn't the monarch of Idris. Shashara's children (and theirs) wouldn't either, because she wasn't queen.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e6805

[Jult]

39 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Brandon commented on this idea in 2017:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e8879

The Royal Locks are only inherited by the children of the actual monarch. Not descendants, only his/her children. Vivenna's children won't have the Royal Locks, because she isn't the monarch of Idris. Shashara's children (and theirs) wouldn't either, because she wasn't queen.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e6805

Mmm.. That does kinda kill the whole theory. So.. the fact that Denth and Shashara both have the Royal Locks must mean that one of their parents was a monarch. Wouldn't that make it likely that one of them inherited the throne after their parents? Do we know that Shashara was never queen before she died and Returned?

Not that that would help this theory. Because we would still have 500 years-worth of non-monarchs between Shashara and Lift. I'm just curious.

Side note: I've been ignoring Denth for pretty much this whole discussion. Most of the stuff I said about Shashara could also apply to him - I just think Shashara would be the more interesting one to have a connection to Lift.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 7/6/2025 at 9:59 PM, Jult said:

Wouldn't that make it likely that one of them inherited the throne after their parents?

Well, Vasher and Shashara do seem to have ended up in control of Hallandren by the time of the Manywar. Maybe she was popular with the court as a princess and they seized the throne from her parents, or her parents died and they seized it from hypothetical still-living siblings?

[Clarkmon22 He/Him]

didnt shashara die way before lift was born? doesn't Warbreaker take place quite a bit before Arc 1 of Storm light?

[Jult]

12 minutes ago, Clarkmon22 said:

didnt shashara die way before lift was born? doesn't Warbreaker take place quite a bit before Arc 1 of Storm light?

Yes. I estimated about 500 years between Shashara and Lift above. I wasn't suggesting that she was Lift's mother - just her ancestor. However, Nitpicking already pointed out that this is basically impossible because Royal Locks don't get passed down like a normal genetic trait. They are specifically linked to the throne in some (probably magical) way that makes it so only a monarch's immediate children can have them (I was unaware of this). And neither Shashara nor the 500 years' worth of descendants between her and Lift held the throne.

If there is some kind of connection between Lift's powers and the Royal Locks, it almost certainly has nothing to do with Shashara.

[SirNoSell]

I actually though that Lift is Vedel's daughter based on how Shalash had Shallan and her siblings as some sort of weird experiment with Spirit Webs to help the Heralds escape.

[Jult]

2 hours ago, SirNoSell said:

I actually though that Lift is Vedel's daughter based on how Shalash had Shallan and her siblings as some sort of weird experiment with Spirit Webs to help the Heralds escape.

Small correction, Chanarach is Shallan's mother - not Shalash. But I could see Lift being a Herald's daughter. Wit describes her as so heavily Invested that he's surprised normal people can't feel it. That could all be from whatever Cultivation did to her, but I have a feeling she's got more going on than we know about.

Why Vedel, specifically? Is there something that makes her more likely than the other Heralds? 

[Crustin]

On 8/4/2025 at 2:54 PM, Jult said:

Yes. I estimated about 500 years between Shashara and Lift above. I wasn't suggesting that she was Lift's mother - just her ancestor. However, Nitpicking already pointed out that this is basically impossible because Royal Locks don't get passed down like a normal genetic trait. They are specifically linked to the throne in some (probably magical) way that makes it so only a monarch's immediate children can have them (I was unaware of this). And neither Shashara nor the 500 years' worth of descendants between her and Lift held the throne.

If there is some kind of connection between Lift's powers and the Royal Locks, it almost certainly has nothing to do with Shashara.

I suspect the Royal Locks also has a strong element of Connection to Identity, so much that anyone not of the royal family would not have enough identity for them to manifest. 

 

 

On 7/6/2025 at 4:49 AM, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

We also know that 5 years before SA, Nightblood might have been in hands of the Nightwatcher, as she offered Dalinar a sword that fits Nightblood's description. It seems that Nale didn't get Nightblood directly from Vasher but from the Nightwacher instead. OB ch 114:

Just adding that I am all-but-certain Nightblood was traded by Vasher to Cultivation, not simply the Nightwatcher. Possibly for Vasher to get through Cultivation's Perpendicularity unmolested by the Unkalaki; for safe-keeping; maybe even in order for him to be able to stay on Roshar. Perhaps all three aforementioned. Regardless, Vasher said giving up the sword was the best mistake he ever made, and we also know dragons like a good trade; and--presumably--ones that pay long-term dividends are even better. Which is why I'm confident Cultivation was who gave Nightblood to Nale (or perhaps Ishar), probably from having seen how it would go from Szeth to Taravangian and eventually be used to destroy Rayse. She both saw Nightblood's its potential and planned for Rayse's undoing *that* long ago. Long game indeed.

[Teravangian]

 

On 7/5/2025 at 11:40 PM, Jult said:

Came very close to hijacking @Nitpicking's topic on Vasher (Uh oh for Vasher), but I thought I'd be getting WAY too off topic. Still, let it be known that I blame Nitpicking for the fact that I'm digging through Arcanum and Coppermind entries this late at night . I basically came across a few different (but possibly connected) facts while reading about Vasher and Nalthis in general that I now have thoughts on.

Fact 1: Vasher and Shashara were on Roshar least once before they created Nightblood (Nightblood is an "unsuccessful" attempt at creating an Awakener's version of a Shardblade).

Thoughts: Based on a WoB where Brandon didn't seem very sure if there was overlap between Vasher's previous visit(s) and the Sunmaker's crusade, I think it's safe to say that Vasher was on Roshar post-Recreance but not in Alethkar. I also think that he met Nale during this time. This is speculation based on the fact that Nightblood wound up in Nale's possession by the time of WoR. And also because the Skybreakers would have had the only 'living' Shardblades during the time of Vasher's visit; which would have been better inspiration for Nightblood's creation than a 'dead' blade.

 

Fact 2: Growing your hair with the Royal Locks makes you hungry (according to Siri). There's a WoB about this where someone points out this is similar to how Lift's abilities work.

Thoughts: This is where I'm going to start sounding crazy. But I'm wondering if Lift's weird ability to metabolize food into Investiture doesn't 100% come from Cultivation's boon. What if Lift is descended from Shashara? We know she's been to Roshar and that her brother has the Royal Locks. I don't see why she couldn't have had a child while she was there. It would also add a bit of an interesting element to Lift's upcoming mentorship from Vasher. I'm sure some of you are already thinking "if she had the Royal Locks, then her hair would change color". But would it? Isn't "not changing" the boon that she asked for? Maybe Cultivation simply kept the 'input' for her Royal Lock powers the same and only altered the 'output'.

 

Side note: I know there's WoBs saying it is just a coincidence that Vasher once went by the name Kalad; which is very similar to Kalak/Kaladin. And that Shashara being similar to Shallash/Shallan is also a coincidence... But I don't buy it. Once is a coincidence. But twice? I don't know about that.

 

Yes, I agree, you do sound crazy. You have a point, the use of investiture is similair, but heritage, no. I think this is solely related to investiture mechanics.