Open questions

[+robardin he/him]

16 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

I don't think most of that is accurate, which is why I never said a cognitive shadow cannot pick up or temporarily hold a shard under any conditions. I could have worded it better, but "I know someone who has been an established cognitive shadow for several hundred years and temporarily held an opposing shard and is currently held together with duct tape and hemalurgic spikes should not be able to pick up a shard and wield its power as effectively as someone with an undamaged and unmodified physical body...", but that felt clunky. 

Was Taravangian a cognitive shadow at the moment he killed Rayse? I thought Odium pulled him into the spiritual realm before Taravangian actually died, but I do not remember anything definite either way. 

Kelsier had trouble holding the power pf Preservation, but I wasn't sure whether it was the cognitive shadow thing, or his connection to Ruin. I wonder if being a sliver of Preservation would now interfere with his ability to hold Ruin. 

I think both elements were a factor.

Right after Kelsier's Ascension through forced Connection to Preservation via a Selish Investiture Bomb, Ruin said to him, mockingly: "Oh, Kelsier! You think I mind what you have done? Why I'd have chosen for you to take the power! It's perfect! You're merely an aspect of me, after all.

... You can barely control it. Even assuming it could harm me, you couldn't accomplish such a task. ... You're not alive, you're an idea. A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms."

So lacking a footprint in one of the three Realms while taking up a Shard forms a kind of incomplete Ascension. But it is still an Ascension, as later, Kelsier realizes when he was able to resist the very insistent pull to the Beyond, "He had held the power of deity. The final death could not take him unless he wanted it to. Or unless he was completely destroyed."

He may not have been a full Shard as far as being able to wield its full power, but he was a legitimate, lesser but not "leaky", Vessel.

Well, "legitimate" is maybe putting it too strongly, as the Shard would never have chosen him, the Connection was not naturally there. More like, "served to hold all the available power of the Shard of Preservation that was released upon the passing of the former Vessel, Leras".

"He could see himself now, in the Spiritual Realm -- and those black lines were still there, tying him to Ruin. The power he held didn't like that at all. It tumbled inside him, churning, trying to break free. He could hold on, but he knew that if he let go, it would escape him and he would never be able to recapture it."

Kelsier's nature was always quite Ruinous, eh?

 

Edited July 24, 2025 by robardin

[Nitpicking]

On 7/24/2025 at 6:40 AM, alder24 said:

No, he's not considered a Cognitive Shadow.

  Hide contents

R'Shara (paraphrased)

Would Szeth, Wax, and Taravangian be considered fully alive, or are they considered Cognitive Shadows?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They would be considered alive.

R'Shara (paraphrased)

Even with what happened when Taravangian Ascended?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, he still counts as a fully alive person holding the Shard. He won't have the same trouble as a Cognitive Shadow holding a Shard.

The Most Boring Book Ever release party (Sept. 24, 2024)

 

Interesting. And by that I mean, makes no sense and goes into the territory of "Brandon is wrong."

[Argenti he/him]

36 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Interesting. And by that I mean, makes no sense and goes into the territory of "Brandon is wrong."

Taravangian was not dead when he ascended. You can be in the spiritual realm and not dead. 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Interesting. And by that I mean, makes no sense and goes into the territory of "Brandon is wrong."

No, he's not wrong. When does the separation between soul, mind and the body happen? Not when the heart stops beating, which is what happened to Taravangian - he was stabbed in the heart by Szeth, but his brain was still alive and that's a more important factor. Taravangian's body was dying, but wasn't dead yet. Just like what happened with Lift and Gawx. WoR ch 88:

Quote

“I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.”
“Impossible.”
“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late."

WoR ch 113:

Quote

Cold steel bit Taravangian’s skin as Szeth stabbed him right in the chest.
[...]
The sword drank greedily of the god’s essence, and as it did, Taravangian felt a snap. His body dying. Szeth finishing the job. He knew it immediately. Taravangian was dead. Anger rose in him like he had never known.

 

[Nitpicking]

Your quote says that Taravangian is dead.

By "Brandon is wrong," I obviously am not hallucinating that I'm in charge of the Cosmere. I'm saying that Brandon's allergy to letting his characters die is, to my personal taste, a flaw.

[BinarySecond]

On 7/27/2025 at 3:26 AM, Nitpicking said:

Your quote says that Taravangian is dead.

By "Brandon is wrong," I obviously am not hallucinating that I'm in charge of the Cosmere. I'm saying that Brandon's allergy to letting his characters die is, to my personal taste, a flaw.

I think there's a few ways to interpret "Taravangian was dead"

In the literal sense, dead and gone

In the sense of "Kaladin falling off Urithiru being dead"

When you break something and you think of your parents "Oh I'm dead."