About the timeline as it relates to TLM

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

Hey, I made an account on these forums to ask this (and probably a few other questions later), but the timeline seems funky going forward. 

There was a wob from a spoiler stream a little bit ago where Brandon denied that the "ghost blood coin shots" that help Steris out of that jam at the end of TLM were Skybreakers. Knowing what we know now, of course he couldn't out right confirm this, nor RAFO it either or else draw suspicion. Those people must be Skybreakers. But if WAT takes place around the time of Shadows of Self (Hoid is applying to be Wax's coachman during the final epilogue), how on earth did Kelsier manage to snag those Skybreakers with all of the time dilation stuff going on? Now that Retribution is in power, the spren (and the subsequent Radiants they're bonded to) are able to leave Roshar. But with all the funky time-dilation stuff going on, is it really plausible that they could've escaped Roshar in time to become ghostbloods on Scadrial? Or did the ghostbloods always have their own Skybreaker splinter-group hanging out in Shadesmar? 

 

The time dilation stuff is so wonky to me. I'm sure the people at dragon steel have at least most of it figured out, but I don't know. It's implied that Shallan might leave Roshar during the time skip, but even when she's talking to Kel via the Seon, there's still so much delay on Kel's end of the call. 

I know this was really ramble-y, but I'd love to get some opinions on this. What do you think is going on? Obviously there's only so much we can speculate on until 203-whatever/whenever book 6 drops, but man, dude. This one thing is bugging me. Do you think there are more Skybreaker splinter-groups out there than just the ones that don't agree with Nale? There must be, right? 

Edited May 27, 2025 by TacoBellChoutaMeal

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

Probably. But I feel like Skybreakers who weren't like Nale before WaT would be the type that fell during the Recreance. Kelsier wasn't around back then, so he couldn't have saved some. 

Maybe someone independantly bonded one of the older highspren without Nale's influence and figured out the Surges along the way before joining the Ghostbloods?

However, I don't think a Skybreaker would agree to the Ghostblood's secrecy policy.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

2 hours ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

Hey, I made an account on these forums to ask this (and probably a few other questions later), but the timeline seems funky going forward. 

There was a wob from a spoiler stream a little bit ago where Brandon denied that the "ghost blood coin shots" that help Steris out of that jam at the end of TLM were Skybreakers. Knowing what we know now, of course he couldn't out right confirm this, nor RAFO it either or else draw suspicion. Those people must be Skybreakers. But if WAT takes place around the time of Shadows of Self (Hoid is applying to be Wax's coachman during the final epilogue), how on earth did Kelsier manage to snag those Skybreakers with all of the time dilation stuff going on? Now that Retribution is in power, the spren (and the subsequent Radiants they're bonded to) are able to leave Roshar. But with all the funky time-dilation stuff going on, is it really plausible that they could've escaped Roshar in time to become ghostbloods on Scadrial? Or did the ghostbloods always have their own Skybreaker splinter-group hanging out in Shadesmar? 

 

The time dilation stuff is so wonky to me. I'm sure the people at dragon steel have at least most of it figured out, but I don't know. It's implied that Shallan might leave Roshar during the time skip, but even when she's talking to Kel via the Seon, there's still so much delay on Kel's end of the call. 

I know this was really ramble-y, but I'd love to get some opinions on this. What do you think is going on? Obviously there's only so much we can speculate on until 203-whatever/whenever book 6 drops, but man, dude. This one thing is bugging me. Do you think there are more Skybreaker splinter-groups out there than just the ones that don't agree with Nale? There must be, right? 

WaT occurs directly before/at the time of the Alloy of Law, as Hoid is seen in Alloy of Law at the wedding (this is 342 PC or 1176 on Roshar). Assuming that Kelsier put the figures in his conversation with Shallan in Rosharan years as Shallan is not cosmere-aware, the estimated time dilation experienced by Roshar can be calculated by the curve y=60e^(-xln(60)/75) [0,75] where x is time in Standard years since 342 PC and y is the ratio of time experienced outside of Roshar to time experienced on Roshar (this is assuming the 3rd Law of Investiture works the same as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics). TLM takes place in 348 PC, a six-year difference for Scadrial but only about 50 days for Roshar. (Rosharan days, which are 20 hours long compared to Scadrian days, which are 24 hours long). If we assume a half a year (Scadrian 365-day year) travel time between Roshar and Scadrial through the CR, the Skybreakers would have had a maximum of 40 days to exit the time dilation around Roshar and arrive on Scadrial on time for that event. I find it highly unlikely that they would be able to do that in time, given the closing of the Oathgates and Cultivation's perpendicularity, unless they were already in Shadesmar at the time. 

Edited May 27, 2025 by Ashkaloda
capitalisation

[+Oltux72 he/him]

15 hours ago, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

Hey, I made an account on these forums to ask this (and probably a few other questions later), but the timeline seems funky going forward. 

There was a wob from a spoiler stream a little bit ago where Brandon denied that the "ghost blood coin shots" that help Steris out of that jam at the end of TLM were Skybreakers. Knowing what we know now, of course he couldn't out right confirm this, nor RAFO it either or else draw suspicion. Those people must be Skybreakers.

WoB on Skybreakers

Sanderson is devious. Look closely at what he denies. He says that no Skybreaker moved from Roshar to Scadrial by that time. This does not rule out that unbonded Highspren have gone to Scadrial. The people would be Scadrians, but they would presumably be bound by the oaths.

The Spren knew that something bad was about to happen. It is entirely plausible that some Spren went as far away from Roshar as the mechanics allowed and were free to leave unaffected by the dilation effect. In fact we have strictly speaking no idea whether even Ashyn is affected.

Hence I am afraid we cannot draw conclusions towards the timeline from that.

[Treamayne]

46 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

WoB on Skybreakers

Sanderson is devious. Look closely at what he denies. He says that no Skybreaker moved from Roshar to Scadrial by that time. This does not rule out that unbonded Highspren have gone to Scadrial. The people would be Scadrians, but they would presumably be bound by the oaths.

The Spren knew that something bad was about to happen. It is entirely plausible that some Spren went as far away from Roshar as the mechanics allowed and were free to leave unaffected by the dilation effect. In fact we have strictly speaking no idea whether even Ashyn is affected.

Hence I am afraid we cannot draw conclusions towards the timeline from that.

Especially since we see Aux leaving with the Caravan at the end of WaT.

[Geoffray]

For me it goes like this:

- Alloy of law before RoW and Wat (there's a one year gap between OB and RoW and I found it compelling that AoL occurs during that time. Hoid presence at the wedding is still possible (he disappear sometimes from the narrative of the SA and could have gone to Scadrial during this year gap.)

- RoW and WaT as the same "block" of time, so to speak.

- Ending of WaT: Shallan Pov and Hoid Pov. The fact that both POV seems out of order/synch is for me a "meta" thing. Time is wonky since Retribution rising and Brandon show that with this. Kelsier say to Shallan that a crisis had occured and dispatch. For me it's the Autonomy invastion of TLM (which could occur following the Retribution creation). But Hoid last POV is him presenting as a new coachman for Wax.

- Therefore, it's possible for me that some skybreakers have arrived on Scadrial following the time bubble some time before TLM.

 

But it's really shaky ^^'. (hope i've been clear, sorry for any mistake ^^')

 

[Treamayne]

On 5/28/2025 at 6:28 AM, Geoffray said:

Alloy of law before RoW and Wat (there's a one year gap between OB and RoW and I found it compelling that AoL occurs during that time. Hoid presence at the wedding is still possible (he disappear sometimes from the narrative of the SA and could have gone to Scadrial during this year gap.)

Do you have a source for that? Because WoB states that AoL is after WaT. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Time-wise, where do the events of Bands of Mourning happen with respect to Words of Radiance?

Brandon Sanderson

...So, Bands of Mourning, all the Wax & Wayne books take place after Stormlight 5, but I'm not sure if it happens after or before Stormlight 6, It'll have to wait, because there's a time jump between Stormlight 5 and 6 that I haven't exactly defined in the timeline yet.

Oathbringer Newcastle signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

The Hoid Epilogue in WaT is during the events of AoL - WaT Epilogue:

Spoiler

The woman took that in stride, which improved Hoid’s opinion of her. “Well, I can’t be too picky,” the steward said, stamping his application. “Seeing as ever since a previous fellow literally ended up driving off a cliff, we’ve had trouble keeping the position filled. 

 The Carriage driving off of the cliff is the event that put the AoL Prologue into motion causing Wax to move back to Elendel from the Roughs. 

Hope that helps

Edited May 29, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Geoffray]

22 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Hope that helps

it sure help!!! Damn, thank you!

For me, it's was after AoL that the job application as the coachman is open (therefore, the Hoid epilogue of WaT was just before SoS). But with what you said, it's before.

This mean that the timeline is more wacky on the time level^^.

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Geoffray said:

This mean that the timeline is more wacky on the time level

I figured it makes it more calculable - if we know:

Spoiler

• Edwarn's Set-henchmen driver from Elendel went on the trip to help stage the false carriage Accident
• The Driver for the beginning of AoL was the Ladrian Driver from teh country estate, moved back to Elendel temporarily for Wayne's return
• Sometime durign AoL Hoid is hired
• Before SoS, the Driver from AoL returns to the Country Estate, and Hoid is now primary Driver

Therefore, since we know the rough number of months and years on Scadrial from AoL Prologue until TLM epilogue - and - we know the Rosharan date for Retribution ascending and the start of the time dilation - then we should be able to calculate each Era 2 book's timeline to Rosharan days, months, years since Retribution. 

AoL only lasts a few days from Ch 1 to Ch 20 - so any calculation should be accurate to within a week or less

Edited May 28, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[+Oltux72 he/him]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Do you have a source for that? Because WoB states that AoL is after WaT. 

  Hide contents

Questioner

Time-wise, where do the events of Bands of Mourning happen with respect to Words of Radiance?

Brandon Sanderson

...So, Bands of Mourning, all the Wax & Wayne books take place after Stormlight 5, but I'm not sure if it happens after or before Stormlight 6, It'll have to wait, because there's a time jump between Stormlight 5 and 6 that I haven't exactly defined in the timeline yet.

Oathbringer Newcastle signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

The Hoid Epilogue in WaT is during the events of AoL - WaT Epilogue:

  Hide contents

The woman took that in stride, which improved Hoid’s opinion of her. “Well, I can’t be too picky,” the steward said, stamping his application. “Seeing as ever since a previous fellow literally ended up driving off a cliff, we’ve had trouble keeping the position filled. 

 The Carriage driving off of the cliff is the event that put the AoL Prologue into motion causing Wayne to move back to Elendel from the Roughs. 

Hope that helps

Trouble to keep that position filled indicates that they tried multiple times. In fact it raises the very ugly possibility that Hoid arranged for the position to keep reopening.

And there is another problem: the letters between Harmony and Wit and the tissue sample
They mention previous visits of Hoid to Scadrial while Harmony's agents were operating, so they have to be after the Catacendre.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

the letters between Harmony and Wit and the tissue sample
They mention previous visits of Hoid to Scadrial while Harmony's agents were operating, so they have to be after the Catacendre.

The letters indicate that Harmony has not yet found/positioned Wax because he has only begun to consider "Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A....sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill." - and there were 340+ Scadrian Years for Hoid to visit Scadrial post Catacendre but before becoming "Wit" on Roshar.

I do not see any conflict, can you please elaborate?

[Jult]

On 5/28/2025 at 6:17 AM, Treamayne said:

Especially since we see Aux leaving with the Caravan at the end of WaT.

Seeing as this is the Iriali caravan heading out on their Fifth Journey. Isn't it likely that Scadrial is where Aux is headed; assuming the "golden haired fairy people" that Maraga Dulcet mentions in TLM are the Iriali?

I can't see Sigzil/Aux specifically joining the Ghostbloods unless it was some kind of undercover work for Hoid. But I see no reason why Aux has to be the only Highspren that followed the Iriali to Scadrial.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

21 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I do not see any conflict, can you please elaborate?

Given that we have evidence of earlier visit to Scadrial, I think that we can draw no conclusions from Waxillium meeting Hoid before he employs him.

15 hours ago, Jult said:

Seeing as this is the Iriali caravan heading out on their Fifth Journey. Isn't it likely that Scadrial is where Aux is headed; assuming the "golden haired fairy people" that Maraga Dulcet mentions in TLM are the Iriali?

I can't see Sigzil/Aux specifically joining the Ghostbloods unless it was some kind of undercover work for Hoid. But I see no reason why Aux has to be the only Highspren that followed the Iriali to Scadrial.

Exactly. We know for sure that there were more Spren among the Iriali. Assuming otherwise would mean that there were no Radiants among the Iriali. Though that makes me wonder about the WoB. What happened to them?

[Jult]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. We know for sure that there were more Spren among the Iriali. Assuming otherwise would mean that there were no Radiants among the Iriali. Though that makes me wonder about the WoB. What happened to them?

Maybe he's just being tricky with the terminology? There is a difference between a 'Radiant' and a 'Surgebinder'.

What bothers me more is that getting access to Stormlight on Scadrial would be difficult. I know the Ghostbloods were actively working on that. And even captured Kalak to force him to help with it. But I assumed that plan got ruined when Kalak joined the new Oathpact.

Unless Scadrial is where Cultivation went and she's creating more Surgebinders like Lift (which I highly doubt); I don't know how these alleged Skybreakers could be functioning. I guess the Ghostbloods could be providing them with alternate forms of Investiture like Breaths or the Dor essence stuff that Wan Shailu used in TLM? I think there are some WoBs that say this is possible even if it has never been done before.

[Nitpicking]

23 hours ago, Jult said:

What bothers me more is that getting access to Stormlight on Scadrial would be difficult. I know the Ghostbloods were actively working on that. And even captured Kalak to force him to help with it. But I assumed that plan got ruined when Kalak joined the new Oathpact.

Well, we know that you can use purified Dor for any type of Invested Art, or at least several of them (e. g. soulstamping, Aetherbound magic). Presumably Skybreakers on Scadrial would be getting their Investiture from a different source than Stormlight (which, after all, no longer exists).

[Treamayne]

On 5/30/2025 at 9:43 AM, Jult said:

 I guess the Ghostbloods could be providing them with alternate forms of Investiture like Breaths or the Dor essence stuff that Wan Shailu used in TLM? I think there are some WoBs that say this is possible even if it has never been done before.

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Well, we know that you can use purified Dor for any type of Invested Art, or at least several of them (e. g. soulstamping, Aetherbound magic). Presumably Skybreakers on Scadrial would be getting their Investiture from a different source than Stormlight (which, after all, no longer exists).

 

WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Could a Surgebinder potentially use a different kind of Investiture them Stormlight? So like if somebody from Elantris somehow bonded to a spren could they use the Dor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah this is possible, not as hard as it may sound, there is a few things you need to do, but it's possible.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 23, 2017)

TLM Spoilers - Coppermind:

Spoiler

The Dor can be purified, and carried to other locations. If unkeyed, anyone with powers can use it as very effective fuel for their abilities.^[6][17] This can also be used to bypass the geographic limitation of Sel Investitures.^[6][7]

• 6-The Lost Metal chapter 40
• 7-The Lost Metal chapter 42
• 17-The Lost Metal chapter 51

 

 

Edited May 31, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 5/30/2025 at 3:43 PM, Jult said:

Maybe he's just being tricky with the terminology? There is a difference between a 'Radiant' and a 'Surgebinder'.

That would be a little lame.

On 5/30/2025 at 3:43 PM, Jult said:

Unless Scadrial is where Cultivation went and she's creating more Surgebinders like Lift (which I highly doubt); I don't know how these alleged Skybreakers could be functioning. I guess the Ghostbloods could be providing them with alternate forms of Investiture like Breaths or the Dor essence stuff that Wan Shailu used in TLM? I think there are some WoBs that say this is possible even if it has never been done before.

1. The Ghostbloods may be trading/capturing Towerlight using metalminds (Nicrosil)
2. Purified Dor
3. The Ghostbloods may have found a way to tap other metalminds
4. They may be using spikes as a power sources
5. The Ghostbloods may be trading with Cultivation for Lifelight

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That would be a little lame.

1. The Ghostbloods may be trading/capturing Towerlight using metalminds (Nicrosil)
2. Purified Dor
3. The Ghostbloods may have found a way to tap other metalminds
4. They may be using spikes as a power sources
5. The Ghostbloods may be trading with Cultivation for Lifelight

Given the time dilation, I don't think that the first one would be able to be accomplished in the correct amount of time. I also doubt that Cultivation is able to establish herself within 6 years enough to start up interplanetary trade. 

[TacoBellChoutaMeal]

Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. Unfortunately I have another quandary for you all: 

How the hell were they surgebinding?

 

There's no way Kel just has that much spare Dor lying around. Were they using allomancy to power surgebinding? Is that possible? If so, that would give aluminum mistings something important to do. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 6/5/2025 at 5:34 PM, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

There's no way Kel just has that much spare Dor lying around. 

I don't know if we have enough evidence to discount it outright. 

True, purified Dor is very difficult to get, but a simple Lashing to fly might be cheap compared to Twinsoul's or Moonlight's stunts.

On 6/5/2025 at 5:34 PM, TacoBellChoutaMeal said:

Were they using allomancy to power surgebinding? Is that possible? If so, that would give aluminum mistings something important to do. 

This would be very hard to do, most likely. 

Allomantic (and presumably Feruchemical and Hemalurgic) Investiture is in a very ridged system. You could use Breath without much difficulty, however.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5-dragoncon-2016/#e3233

Questioner

You've mentioned in the last couple of afterwords that you get interesting results when you mix types of Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Twinborn and Surgebinders on Roshar. Can you mix a form of magic with a source of Investiture? Can say Vasher use Stormlight in place of Breaths or would that require tampering via Hemalurgy or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of them require tampering. Some of them are a little bit easier than others. It depends on really what you mean. For instance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? It's just-- But that's not really using the magic, it's just charging it with other Investiture. But, you know, it would be very easy, for instance, if you can get yourself Invested-- Like, for instance, it'd be very easy to use Breaths to fuel Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that are going to make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the processes these work easier than other ones.

I think this could be because Awakening and Surgebinding are more "flexible" systems where the practitioner themselves is the shaping force for the Investiture, using Intent (and Commands), while other focuses take priority in systems like Allomancy and Selish arts.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3415

mooglefrooglian

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

Brandon Sanderson

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

uchoo786

How much crossover is there in use? Like if one "breathes" in the mists they can use it to power their allomancy. Could an Allomancer utilize stormlight to power his allomancy as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the magics can be hacked together in one way or another, but some are easier to interchange than others.