Quick Fix 75: The Tower's Pressure

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, StrikerEZ said:

Who are you gonna vote for instead? Because now you’re voting on yourself

That's what I'm mulling aloud.

I'm not really of the view Aster is in her E meta. I've outlined repeatedly that she's endorsed a position that no Elim really wants to get caught saying publicly. I think TJ calling on you in thread is spicy but also a tad weird if you're E/E meaning this is not my preferred train. I do want to believe in your entrance, at least for the moment. I think TUN, Polly, and TOW probably should get some Village cred for voting TJ regardless, especially given the high purity of the C1 TJ train.

C1: Roy, KSauce, TOW, Polly.
C2: Polly, TUN.

If it wasn't for Spirit seeming to be playing outside of his E meta, I'd side-eye Spirit for that vote too.

I suppose let's PoE this. I'm really left in <Triple B, Null, Tinwatcher> at the moment, leaning against Tinwatcher a little for very poor reasons.

If I had my druthers, I'd probably gun for Null here. That train ain't happening at this point in the cycle and at these numbers. Just gonna post so my line of thought is clear.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

What are druthers?

[Kasimir he/him]

Edited to add:

I think there is at most one E between <Striker, TUO>. 

I hate that I've got to do this, and I hate that half the votes are nonexistent or half-arsed but that's the way it is, and sometimes the only card left to play is preventing what I think are a bunch of bad exes, and hopefully dodging around the Soothing.

The Demon.

Never liked Demon Balor as much as I liked Shinsuke Nakamura anyway.

@A Jo in the Bush

[StrikerEZ he/him]

WAIT I JUST REALIZED WHY I WAS CONFUSED THE VOTE COUNT STILL SAYS TUO IS ON DEMON

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

That is Turn 4's ending. Please give me a few minutes for rollover.

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

WAIT I JUST REALIZED WHY I WAS CONFUSED THE VOTE COUNT STILL SAYS TUO IS ON DEMON

Oh, oops, I accidentally wrote T4 instead of T3 on that vote. Luckily that doesn't actually change anything.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

In the Cognitive Realm of the Sibling, Midius was guiding two shadows toward's the Memory Hall. "Now, I don't know how inhabiting these Bodies will change you, it might turn you into an enemy, depending on the memories present inside those heads, but I figure that's a small risk to take."

The two Thoughts nodded dully. Midius sighed. He wasn't going to get any conversation out of these two until they had actual frames to inhabit. Bodies to provide them the necessary.

"They're good bodies these two. Names of Karl and," he hesitated, then checked his hand where he had written the names. There wasn't a second one. "Names of Karl and, Davey, sure."

They had arrived in the hallway leading into the mental version of the Memory Hall. Karl and Davey were standing at different points in the room, and Midius went for Davey first, leading the Thoughts by the hand. "This won't hurt a bit, I assume. I've never done it."  He lined the silent thought up with the silent body, and carefully drew them together.

In the physical world, Davey started, as if waking up from a dream. He looked around, then saw that people were gathering around Aster and Karl. He walked over to hear the tail end of the analysis.

In the cognitive, Midius grinned in satisfaction. "That went well, wouldn't you say if you could?" No one answered him, but he applauded himself anyway. Next was Karl.

He frowned as he saw what was happening to Karl. The man was standing next to Aster, and the crowd around them was discussing removing both of them. There was also a large source of Metal directly behind him.

"What's this?"

He moved quickly. If he could get a thought into Karl soon, he might be able to save the man. But then the metal moved, high and quick, and Midius yelled in suprise and glee.

"It's Kalhavar with the Steel Chair!"

Karl crumpled to the ground under the shock assault. Kalhavar unfolded the chair, set it over his body, and climbed onto it. He surveyed the crowd, cupped his hands around his mouth, and yelled. "VOTE! Or this can happen again."

Quick Fix 75: The Tower's Pressure, Turn 5: Chairshot

@THE DEMON was Executed!  THE DEMON was a Servant!

All of Negative_Null's votes have been erased.

Please welcome @Aeternum! They have replaced YEVAD

Player List and Current Vote Count:

1. @BigBadBagsworth Two
2. @KelsierApologist Three
3. @The Unknown Order Two
4. @Aeternum Three
5. @IcedOutPenguin Two
6. |TJ| Executed Turn 3
7. KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren Executed Turn 1
8. @ThatOneWorldhopper One
9. @Negative_Null Zero
10. RoyalBeeMage Executed Turn 2
11. @Lord Spirit Zero
12. @Tinwatcher Three
13. THE DEMON Executed Turn 4
14. @StrikerEZ Two
15. @Aster Four
16. @Kasimir One

 

Proper Vote Count:

Spoiler

BigBadBagsworth [ 2 ]: IcedOutPenguin(T3), BigBadBagsworth (T4)
KelsierApologist [ 3 ]: Kasimir(T1), |TJ| (T1), KelsierApologist (T4)
The Unknown Order [ 2 ]:  Negative_Null (T1), BigBadBagsworth (T2), Lord Spirit (T2), StrikerEZ(T4), Lord Spirit (T4)
Aeternum [ 3 ]: Aeternum(T1, T2, T3)
IcedOutPenguin [ 2 ]: The Unknown Order (T1), ThatOneWorldhopper (T3)
ThatOneWorldhopper [ 1 ]: IcedOutPenguin (T1)
Negative_Null [ 0 ]: Negative_Null (T4)
Lord Spirit [ 0 ]: Negative_Null (T3)
Tinwatcher [ 3 ]: Tinwatcher (T2), Aster, (T3), Tinwatcher (T4)
THE DEMON [ 5 ]: The Demon (T1, T2, T3), The Unknown Order (T3), Kasimir (T4)
StrikerEZ [ 2 ]: BigBadBagsworth (T1), ThatOneWorldhopper (T2), Negative Null (T2), The Unknown Order (T4)
Aster [ 4 ]: Lord Spirit (T1), Aster (T2, T4), IcedOutPenguin (T4), ThatOneWorldhopper (T4)
Kasimir [ 1 ]: Tinwatcher (T1)

 

Edited May 25, 2025 by A Jo in the Bush
Vote Count

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

Karl crumpled to the ground under the shock assault. Kalhavar unfolded the chair, set it over his body, and climbed onto it. He surveyed the crowd, cupped his hands around his mouth, and yelled. "VOTE! Or this can happen again."

Spoiler

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

So…clearly the elims didn’t feel under much pressure that cycle, right? Demon was village and if Aster was elim, they didn’t put up much of a fight for Aster. Unless Kas’s vote for Demon at the end was to save Aster…but I don’t know if that makes any kind of sense

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

Funny that TUO has 3 canceled votes on them...

[Kasimir he/him]

I've been repeatedly explaining why I think Aster is Village. This is probably one of the earlier reads I dropped despite doubts here and there. If the game is currently proceeding on the level of 'lol tldr; imma just vote whoever' then it is what it is.

If anyone doesn't like my defending my Village read because you think it's mistaken, you're more than free to talk me out of it. I'm happy to see where I could be mistaken because this should never be static. Otherwise, I'm just going to vote with my reads, too bad.

To be clear, this isn't directed at Striker personally. It's kind of an issue I've been having with the way the last cycle turned out.

Edited to add:

For the record, if TUN does in fact flip V, I'm going to say that at least one of the Soothe narrative pushers is probably Evil. 

Edited to add 2:

Null until I can finish the chart. Reasons laid out in previous posts RE: Null's behaviour not adding up. @A Jo in the Bush (To notify I've edited a vote in.)

Edited May 25, 2025 by Kasimir

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

Since I am suspicious of TOU having three canceled votes. So until further notice I'm voting TUO

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, IcedOutPenguin said:

Since I am suspicious of TOU having three canceled votes. So until further notice I'm voting TUO

If TUN flips V, Penguin should be in the immediate PoE. You do not set up a frame without counting on someone in thread to drive the narrative.

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

If TUN flips V, Penguin should be in the immediate PoE. You do not set up a frame without counting on someone in thread to drive the narrative.

What do all those words mean?

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, IcedOutPenguin said:

What do all those words mean?

If TUN flips green, i.e. a Villager, then you should be in the immediate suspect pool, i.e. a candidate for being voted out. This will be the world where TUN was aggressively framed and we blindly walked into what should probably have been one of the easier takes.

Framing generally doesn't work without the Elims actively pushing that narrative. Reason being Elims cannot really do much if the Village latches on to other things. Therefore, as one of the more aggressive framers, you should be immediately back in the pool.

If you're right, which I don't completely rule out, take a victory lap and stay in the core of cleared players. Basic readonomics.

Edited to add:

The table identifies all the wiped votes. Striker and TJ are in position #2. Funny they have not gotten as much as an iota of interest despite having almost as many votes erased. Does make one wonder.

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

If TUN flips green, i.e. a Villager, then you should be in the immediate suspect pool, i.e. a candidate for being voted out. This will be the world where TUN was aggressively framed and we blindly walked into what should probably have been one of the easier takes.

Framing generally doesn't work without the Elims actively pushing that narrative. Reason being Elims cannot really do much if the Village latches on to other things. Therefore, as one of the more aggressive framers, you should be immediately back in the pool.

If you're right, which I don't completely rule out, take a victory lap and stay in the core of cleared players. Basic readonomics.

Oh, so just because I might be falling for a trap set by the elims because it's obvious, I'm under immediate suspicion. 

I mean, I've played enough mafia to know that whoever accuses first is more likely to get out than almost anyone. 

But if we don't fall for this and he is an elim, then we look stupid. If I do fall for the framing I'll look incompetent. This is why I hate voting the obvious people

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, IcedOutPenguin said:

Oh, so just because I might be falling for a trap set by the elims because it's obvious, I'm under immediate suspicion. 

No, sorry, you're trying to reword this now.

If it is a trap, which it may very well not be, then a trap is usually never set passively. It is laid with the mafs driving people into it. How you accuse, how you play, your general mindset affects how people read you as much as anything else.

I didn't say it was an obvious trap: I'm saying that in most reasonable worlds, a guy who aggressively pushes and gets an Elim killed should be considered an obvious Villager. Has this somehow become a controversial statement?

Now, in the world we do flip him and he flips Village, something has clearly gone wrong, given the previous statement. I would argue something has gone more wrong than usual, if the Village has been induced to ignore...basically every other Village-indicative factor for the fact of three votes Soothed. Is this also somehow a controversial statement?

In that world, we need to look in the set of those driving the narrative and urging the exclusion of every other factor, including you, including Striker, and including Spirit to understand what went wrong and where the mafia involvement is. Has this also become a controversial statement?

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

No, sorry, you're trying to reword this now.

If it is a trap, which it may very well not be, then a trap is usually never set passively. It is laid with the mafs driving people into it. How you accuse, how you play, your general mindset affects how people read you as much as anything else.

I didn't say it was an obvious trap: I'm saying that in most reasonable worlds, a guy who aggressively pushes and gets an Elim killed should be considered an obvious Villager. Has this somehow become a controversial statement?

Now, in the world we do flip him and he flips Village, something has clearly gone wrong, given the previous statement. I would argue something has gone more wrong than usual, if the Village has been induced to ignore...basically every other Village-indicative factor for the fact of three votes Soothed. Is this also somehow a controversial statement?

In that world, we need to look in the set of those driving the narrative and urging the exclusion of every other factor, including you, including Striker, and including Spirit to understand what went wrong and where the mafia involvement is. Has this also become a controversial statement?

Are you saying we shouldn't vote TUO?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

It is odd that Iced isn’t pushing me at all and is so gung-ho about pushing TUO. Either a villager who’s severely tunneling or an elim who’s trying to get someone specific exed. But why ignore me?

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

It is odd that Iced isn’t pushing me at all and is so gung-ho about pushing TUO. Either a villager who’s severely tunneling or an elim who’s trying to get someone specific exed. But why ignore me?

You are not free from my suspicion. I just have focused on TUO because he has the most canceled votes.

You're next, unless another cancelation of votes cancels more votes on somebody other than you, you are number 2 on the list. 

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, IcedOutPenguin said:

Are you saying we shouldn't vote TUO?

I'm saying I think TUO is Village, and have said this since last cycle. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I get voted out, e.g. if you wanna vote me out then I peace out as I've left enough of my thoughts in thread, and I don't particularly gaf because there's a great soap opera on TV right now.

No one has offered any reason or attempted to talk me around to how E!TUO aggressively buses TJ this way when TJ could probably have survived or bled us out a bit more. Every post I have seen in this regard comes back to: "Three votes Soothed tho" and completely pretends C1, C2, and C3 just did not exist. 

When the Village refuses to engage with the past cycles, backread, or to actually engage with the totality of evidence and focusing on exactly one point—again, with Striker and TJ both being on two votes removed, which is just one less (although I don't E!read Striker either, so that's spicy, but that's a separate issue)—are you saying you don't think this is alarming or cause for concern, e.g. about narrative driving?

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

I'm saying I think TUO is Village, and have said this since last cycle. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I get voted out, e.g. if you wanna vote me out then I peace out as I've left enough of my thoughts in thread, and I don't particularly gaf because there's a great soap opera on TV right now.

No one has offered any reason or attempted to talk me around to how E!TUO aggressively buses TJ this way when TJ could probably have survived or bled us out a bit more. Every post I have seen in this regard comes back to: "Three votes Soothed tho" and completely pretends C1, C2, and C3 just did not exist. 

When the Village refuses to engage with the past cycles, backread, or to actually engage with the totality of evidence and focusing on exactly one point—again, with Striker and TJ both being on two votes removed, which is just one less (although I don't E!read Striker either, so that's spicy, but that's a separate issue)—are you saying you don't think this is alarming or cause for concern, e.g. about narrative driving?

That actually makes a lot of sense, I'm probably getting tricked, so I'll switch my vote

So back to the random number for my vote! 4! Aeternum

[Kasimir he/him]

Edited to add:

19 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

It is odd that Iced isn’t pushing me at all and is so gung-ho about pushing TUO. Either a villager who’s severely tunneling or an elim who’s trying to get someone specific exed. But why ignore me?

IMO the fact TUN is on three votes Soothed is pretty indicative that the Elims are putting significant investment into this regardless. It's why I think actively challenging the people making this push is a good move. Regardless of whether it comes from a sincere place or not for them (I don't rule out that Penguin is sincere), I think that any Elim team that is putting this much investment into Soothing votes off TUN is probably just wanting that pay-off, and will drive it regardless.

Or, again, Penguin could be right and TUN could be Evil. But if you don't remotely contest this, you won't know. And while Penguin has ignored every single question I've asked, I do put it to you that I think in most normal worlds, pushing and getting an Elim exed should be a case to V!read the player and the fact we've completely just slipped into saying "nah it was a bus he's Evil" should be at least concerning because we normally don't go there so quickly.

Edited to add 2:

@IcedOutPenguin

30 minutes ago, IcedOutPenguin said:

I mean, I've played enough mafia to know that whoever accuses first is more likely to get out than almost anyone. 

One question - if you've played enough mafia, why are you still random voting (or at least announcing you are doing so) by C5? Would you be able to explain how you normally play?

Edited May 25, 2025 by Kasimir

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

12 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

One question - if you've played enough mafia, why are you still random voting (or at least announcing you are doing so) by C5? Would you be able to explain how you normally play?

I usually have no idea who to vote for and randomly vote based mostly on gut instinct (which Is usually wrong). I almost never have games of mafia where I live to the fifth day. There usually aren't enough people for a day 5 too, which also accounts for a part of it.

I figure that because I don't know who to vote for, voting randomly is the most fair, I did get questioned about my method of randomly picking a number back in, I think cycle 1, but I'm not sure

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

or the record, if TUN does in fact flip V, I'm going to say that at least one of the Soothe narrative pushers is probably Evil.

This. Tbh Iced kinda just feels like a new player Tunnel though. New (and even experienced elims) tend to back down more when given as much pressure for it as Iced has been given.

I could see if Iced is somehow the driving force/most active elim (which is a bizarre world??? But not impossible) Iced has been intentionally soothing me, hence why they've kept the pressure, but it still feels too aggressive for e!Iced.

And ninja'd by Iced backing off. Don't like that. 

38 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

No one has offered any reason or attempted to talk me around to how E!TUO aggressively buses TJ this way when TJ could probably have survived or bled us out a bit more. Every post I have seen in this regard comes back to: "Three votes Soothed tho" and completely pretends C1, C2, and C3 just did not exist. 

This doesn't help the new players much, but I also don't like to bus. Kas can remember me famously confounding the village by not bussing a teammate or defending, just letting them get exed. Sure, I've bussed in other games after that, but I never liked it. I think the village is too good at sniffing out false motives. Quite recently I got my team in trouble by defending my teammates when I should have been bussing them.

40 minutes ago, IcedOutPenguin said:

That actually makes a lot of sense, I'm probably getting tricked, so I'll switch my vote

So back to the random number for my vote! 4! Aeternum

???

Iced is giving me strong e/e with Striker vibes, but Striker:

51 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

It is odd that Iced isn’t pushing me at all and is so gung-ho about pushing TUO. Either a villager who’s severely tunneling or an elim who’s trying to get someone specific exed. But why ignore me?

is giving me strong not e/e vibes, though mostly with only this post. When in doubt though, assume the experienced player is better at lying.

[Kasimir he/him]

59 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

This. Tbh Iced kinda just feels like a new player Tunnel though. New (and even experienced elims) tend to back down more when given as much pressure for it as Iced has been given.

Basically why I pushed Penguin hard (sorry Penguin.) Just wanted to see what kind of reaction I'd get from Penguin, since I do actually suspect/am concerned about the way that particular push built up, and Penguin was around. I'm still mulling over what this does to my Penguin read; I like the subsequent Penguin post, but not necessarily the retraction:

Same grain of salt as:

59 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

This doesn't help the new players much, but I also don't like to bus. Kas can remember me famously confounding the village by not bussing a teammate or defending, just letting them get exed. Sure, I've bussed in other games after that, but I never liked it. I think the village is too good at sniffing out false motives. Quite recently I got my team in trouble by defending my teammates when I should have been bussing them.

But it's at least internally consistent on Penguin's part. I was more alarmed when Penguin mentioned playing IRL because then I was concerned Penguin was using the random voting and inexperience card to mask some pretty ? votes.

59 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

Iced is giving me strong e/e with Striker vibes, but Striker:

59 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

is giving me strong not e/e vibes, though mostly with only this post. When in doubt though, assume the experienced player is better at lying.

Can you say a bit more about both?

My problem is if I go back to strict/raw PoE:

<TUN, TOW, Polly, Penguin, Triple B, Striker, Aet, Aster, Spirit, Null, Tinwatcher>

Remove you, TOW, and Polly for voting TJ.

I suppose I'll say just a tiny bit more about the bussing angle - bussing is absolutely possible and keeps an Elim team alive, RE: whether there could be an Elim in <you, TOW, Polly.> Polly is my bet for Village because she gets the least cred from it. I haven't worked out how I feel about TOW from last cycle but minimally as I mentioned, I find it weird not to give him cred for voting TJ.

You can kind of slightly exclude bussing worlds by doing reads of the posts; I'm just not confident enough of that skillset. But there's also the element where it's a bit topsy-turvy in my view to instantly dismiss a rather villagery action by saying "nah let's vote this player over people who did Not Do Villagery things." A single bus case could be correct but when done repeatedly, that seems wrongheaded to me because Village should be tackling the non-Villagery ones first.

Anyway.

<TUN, TOW, Polly, Penguin, Triple B, Striker, Aet, Aster, Spirit, Null, Tinwatcher>

I'm hoping Aet will be more readable but let's be real, anything is an improvement. I kind of think Spirit is not playing like E!him but that's...dicey. I do feel that Penguin is very upfront on pushing the Soothing angle, Triple B was more subtle about it last cycle, which could be informative, not sure. If I stick with the "E!Penguin probably doesn't blatantly struggle with the C1 vote" thought + headlining the Soothe push, then maybe:

<TUN, TOW, Polly, Penguin, Triple B, Striker, Aet, Aster, Spirit, Null, Tinwatcher>

Aster I've mentioned repeatedly my reasons. Striker too.

<TUN, TOW, Polly, Penguin, Triple B, Striker, Aet, Aster, Spirit, Null, Tinwatcher>

Still back to <Triple B, Null, Tinwatcher> until we get something clearer. Given Striker's votes, I could see myself being wrong about him. Probably the main Striker issue IMO is - head-to-head he probably looks worse than you?

Like what would a you case v. Striker case look like. 

TUN: "Voted TJ C2 and argued for TJ, also argued for TJ C3, but this was likely just bussing as three votes were Soothed off him."
Striker: "Voted to save TJ C2 at the last minute. Also, two votes were Soothed off him. But his interaction with TJ doesn't look very E/E."

I feel like the second is just shakier than the first regardless. Even though I don't think Striker and TJ are E/E, it's just...like how do you explain this cycle and the last comparatively between the two of you? Objectively he just looks worse.

Edited to add:

I see Aet typing and if he's Village, this is objectively the most beautiful sight in the world*.

*Ask me again after I rewatch Ron Cena's entrance and I might change my mind.

Edited May 25, 2025 by Kasimir