versus Taln V.S Rashek (TLR)

[Entr0pic He/him]

@CognitiveShadow gave me this idea, so thanks to them. In this scenario, we’re assuming Taln has enough stormlight to last throughout the fight. We’re also assuming that Rashek has the base 16 metals, but no ettmetal (yes i call it ettmetal) or atuim shenanigans (besides his atiumminds). Below are the notable attributes of each.

Rashek: sliver of preservation, full mistborn, and full feruchemist. A savant in most era 1 metals. Also might have had hemalurgic spikes of an unknown charge. His most useful abilities are probably his compounding. He can compound his zinc and steel for insane speed, his pewter for strength if needed, his chromium for luck, his gold for regeneration, and he might (that’s a very dubious “might”) be able to imbue himself with so much investiture via nicrosil compounding that he can flat out resist a shardblade/honorblade. It’s also notable to note that Rashek is extremely overconfident.

Taln: herald of the almighty, holder of the stoneward honorblade.not much else to say. We don’t know exactly how skilled he is with his surges, but we can assume he is very skilled. He is also vey skilled in unarmed combat, being able to kill tens of fused and hundreds of singers with his bare hands and some help of ash. In this fight, we’re assuming he has enough mental stability to fight, and that he has his honorblade. 

overall, I’m voting Rashek, but i can see an argument for either side. (Yes, i know taln is technically immortal. If he kills or incapacitates taln’s body that would count as a win.) 

Edited March 8, 2025 by Timiny

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, Timiny said:

Also has hemalurgic spikes of an unknown charge

He does not have Hemalurgic Spikes - his spikes are his metalminds. WoB:

Spoiler

Edited for length and relevance

Isaac Stewart

Peter, was the Lord Ruler spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Lord Ruler was spiked, right?  Or is it just--

Peter Ahlstrom

I don't think so.

Brandon Sanderson

--piereced with metalminds, right? They're not actual spikes, just metalminds.

And I want to ask the Sharders on there [the recorder] about that Lord Ruler question, because I didn’t think he was spiked but--

Isaac Stewart

I think I recall him having the bands with spikes in them?

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

This was already answered by WoB:

Spoiler

#1 Taln Fan

Who in the Cosmere could beat Taln in a fight back when he was in his prime?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends what level of abilities he has access to. If you're saying access to full abilities, I don't know of anybody who could beat him in an actual one-on-one.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Nobody in the Cosmere could beat Taln in his prime (1:1). That sounds fairly definitive.

[Entr0pic He/him]

15 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

He does not have Hemalurgic Spikes - his spikes are his metalminds. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Edited for length and relevance

Isaac Stewart

Peter, was the Lord Ruler spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Lord Ruler was spiked, right?  Or is it just--

Peter Ahlstrom

I don't think so.

Brandon Sanderson

--piereced with metalminds, right? They're not actual spikes, just metalminds.

And I want to ask the Sharders on there [the recorder] about that Lord Ruler question, because I didn’t think he was spiked but--

Isaac Stewart

I think I recall him having the bands with spikes in them?

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

The coppermind lists him off having spikes, as sourced from this wob 

Quote

Darxbane

In an annotation from book one, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all three magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? (a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy)

Brandon Sanderson

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

As for your second point, this isn’t taln at his prime. That’s why I specified that he was “in a stable enough mental state to fight”

Edited March 8, 2025 by Timiny

[AlmightyGir]

The only moment in time that this fight would even remotely tip into Rashek's favour, is the moment in which he's holding the Shard of Preservation, but was able to act without the Shard's influence.

Outside of that, Taln rocks him 10/10 times.

[Treamayne]

25 minutes ago, Timiny said:

The coppermind lists him off having spikes, as sourced from this WoB

Spoiler

Darxbane

In an annotation from book one, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all three magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? (a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy)

Brandon Sanderson

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Two points:

1. 2008 WoB superceded by 2015 WoB
2. Standard Brandon Sanderson misleading answers, if you read further in the Annotations you will discover:

Quote

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects.

Was referring to how "The Lord Ruler could control a huge army of rampaging Koloss" which is using Hemalurgy for a dramatic effect - yet has nothing to do with a Spike in Rashek himself.

 

Edited March 8, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Entr0pic He/him]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Two points:

1. 2008 WoB superceded by 2015 WoB
2. Standard Brandon Sanderson misleading answers, if you read further in the Annotations you will discover:

Was referring to how "The Lord Ruler could control a huge army of rampaging Koloss" which is using Hemalurgy for a dramatic effect - yet has nothing to do with a Spike in Rashek himself.

 

I suppose that’s probably the correct interpretation of the wob. 

[QuantumAce]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Nobody in the Cosmere could beat Taln in his prime (1:1). That sounds fairly definitive.

So a better question might be, what advantages would TLR need to beat Taln?

[Ashbringer he/him]

With full powers on both sides, Taln probably wins. Most of the Herald’s advancements seem like a constant tapping of multiple Feruchemical powers at once, which Rashek also has access to but not indefinitetly due to a reliance on metal.

Even then, Rashek has no way of dealing with a Cognitive Shadow unless he has the knowledge to make a spike for Taln (unreliant on raysium), which he may, but no way to know.

Rashek’s best chance is probably to batter Taln with a bunch of proto-Hemalurgic spikes that could drain his soul, while using Steel to keep a very very generous distance. And even then, is that enough? I doubt it. Rashek’s a Sliver, the Heralds are basically Avatars.

[AlmightyGir]

The biggest problem with the premis for your "X vs X" fights so far man, both Rashek vs Taln, and Wax vs Kaladin, is that the only way either of the Scadrielians stand a hope is with prior knowledge of the fight, and ample time to plan, and assume nothing goes wrong with that plan.

Essentially, they both rely on Batman feats to win.

In a straight up impromptu 1v1, neither stands a chance in their related match-ups.

[Entr0pic He/him]

24 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

The biggest problem with the premis for your "X vs X" fights so far man, both Rashek vs Taln, and Wax vs Kaladin, is that the only way either of the Scadrielians stand a hope is with prior knowledge of the fight, and ample time to plan, and assume nothing goes wrong with that plan.

Essentially, they both rely on Batman feats to win.

In a straight up impromptu 1v1, neither stands a chance in their related match-ups.

I just want a Scadrian dub honestly. I should probably dump the whole versus things, now that I’m considering further. 

[AlmightyGir]

I'm sure there will be many. But the match-ups you're picking are just too uneven.

Wax would be a good match-up for someone like Moash.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

So a better question might be, what advantages would TLR need to beat Taln?

I would start with some actual combat training, rather then resting on being so much more powerful than everybody around him (remember, Rashek was a shepherd and sherpa before the Well); then add another 3000+ years of practicing the arts of war. That might get Rashek to a level to be a challenge.

 

1 hour ago, Timiny said:

I just want a Scadrian dub honestly. I should probably dump the whole versus things, now that I’m considering further. 

Or, just do a search and read some of the old ones.
There are sooooo very many versus threads, and it's hard to choose something that hasn't already been debated to death.

That said, Surgebinding with Stormlight is inherently biased in any situation where they have continual access to light (such as Heralds with unlimited light direct from Honor). Comparing any Rosharan Surgebinding with any non-Rosharan art is inherently unfair unless you define a situation in which light is limited as a resource.

[Ashbringer he/him]

To be fair, WaT gives a much clearer picture of exactly how overpowered the Heralds even are. Previously the only hints of how far just being that Invested could take you were Denth and Nomad, and a Herald is far above either of those.

To be more fair, Wax / Vin and Elend have gotten fueled directly from Harmony / Preservation before, and while Rashek presumably can’t draw on Preservation, he could have a thousand years of stored Investiture to draw upon.

Rashek’s probably the best person to try and 1v1 a Herald, outside of someone like Vasher with Nightblood and enough Breath to use it for several hours, or someone like Elend or Telsin or another Herald who has a direct through-line to a Shard. Would he pull off killing Taln alone, no, but he’s powerful and skilled enough that he’d probably survive, which is saying something. 

[alder24]

19 hours ago, Timiny said:

@CognitiveShadow gave me this idea, so thanks to them. In this scenario, we’re assuming Taln has enough stormlight to last throughout the fight. We’re also assuming that Rashek has the base 16 metals, but no ettmetal (yes i call it ettmetal) or atuim shenanigans (besides his atiumminds). Below are the notable attributes of each.

Rashek: sliver of preservation, full mistborn, and full feruchemist. A savant in most era 1 metals. Also might have had hemalurgic spikes of an unknown charge. His most useful abilities are probably his compounding. He can compound his zinc and steel for insane speed, his pewter for strength if needed, his chromium for luck, his gold for regeneration, and he might (that’s a very dubious “might”) be able to imbue himself with so much investiture via nicrosil compounding that he can flat out resist a shardblade/honorblade. It’s also notable to note that Rashek is extremely overconfident.

Taln: herald of the almighty, holder of the stoneward honorblade.not much else to say. We don’t know exactly how skilled he is with his surges, but we can assume he is very skilled. He is also vey skilled in unarmed combat, being able to kill tens of fused and hundreds of singers with his bare hands and some help of ash. In this fight, we’re assuming he has enough mental stability to fight, and that he has his honorblade. 

overall, I’m voting Rashek, but i can see an argument for either side. (Yes, i know taln is technically immortal. If he kills or incapacitates taln’s body that would count as a win.) 

Ugh, that's a tough fight, I'm both Taln and Rashek's fanboy so it's even tougher to decide. If this was any other Herald, I might lean in Rashek's favor (at least it would be a more equal fight), but Taln by Brandon's words is the best fighter Cosmere has ever seen. At his prime, Rashek stands no chance. At his lowest, without his Honorblade, Rashek would probably give him troubles, might even have a real chance of killing him, but Taln should still reign supreme. With his Honorblade and his Surgebinding, Rashek won't be that big of a challenge anymore. Taln is just an unstoppable killing machine. Even if he was killed, he can just return and beat the crap out of Rashek again and again. And Rashek without A-Atium definitely can't beat him.

Unfortunately for you, in those kind of fights Roshar has always an unfair advantage. Their Surgebinding, Shards, healing and access to Stormlight is just more powerful than what Scadrial has to offer. And while I do tend to take Scadrial's side and try to find a way for them to win, at the end of the day it's obvious that the power level between them is incomparable. I know your pain. Rashek is probably the only Scadrian who can win most of the fights with Rosharans, but making him face the best of the best - Taln himself - is just bullying him.

[Vambram he/him]

What if a full powered Mistborn such as Rashek, or perhaps even Vin or Elend, uses the mental and/or emotional powers of Allomancy while going up against Taln or any other herald? Would soothing or rioting be beneficial against them in such a contest? Also, if there was enough atium for the Mistborn to use, how helpful would that be for them?

[Entr0pic He/him]

3 minutes ago, Vambram said:

What if a full powered Mistborn such as Rashek, or perhaps even Vin or Elend, uses the mental and/or emotional powers of Allomancy while going up against Taln or any other herald? Would soothing or rioting be beneficial against them in such a contest? Also, if there was enough atium for the Mistborn to use, how helpful would that be for them?

I think that depends on the strength and skill of your allomancy, and how invested the heralds are at the moment, as invested being are harder to affect with emotional allomancy. I’d guess if the lord ruler duralumin pushed his zinc/brass he’d be able to effect a herald, although I’m not sure. 

As for the usefulness of this, he could perhaps weaken taln’s mental state further, driving him to collapse, although that’s probably implausible.

[Ninth of the Night]

45 minutes ago, Timiny said:

As for the usefulness of this, he could perhaps weaken taln’s mental state further, driving him to collapse, although that’s probably implausible.

Highly implausible, considering the Taln we know now is the most mentally broken a person could conceivably be. He still got up and became an instant recognizable threat to a large group of Fused. And I believe that was just him running on pure instinct.

So hindering his mind with emotional Allomancy, if it's even possible at all, would most likely do virtually nothing to Taln.

[Ashbringer he/him]

38 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Highly implausible, considering the Taln we know now is the most mentally broken a person could conceivably be. He still got up and became an instant recognizable threat to a large group of Fused. And I believe that was just him running on pure instinct.

So hindering his mind with emotional Allomancy, if it's even possible at all, would most likely do virtually nothing to Taln.

I wouldn't necessarily count on that. I read that scene as Taln choosing to fight not because he himself was in danger, but because the Fused went to attack the broken - which would be an emotional response Rashek could manipulate, or perhaps muffle to prevent Taln from rising to the need.

(I'm also assuming Rashek is able to use his emotional allomancy on Taln at all - but I think he could. The Heralds clearly aren't immune to some level of emotional manipulation because of Ishar's use of the Well of Control.)

I doubt he could push Taln actually to the breaking point - Taln did exhibit some instinct when he saved Amaram, and I doubt the Fused didn't try emotional manipulation to get Taln to break over the four thousand years - but it's a tool Rashek has. If nothing else, Rashek could also amplify Taln's other emotions, causing him to worry more about innocents Rashek may threaten.

Rashek's not going to fight fair, if he has to take this fight.

[Qianweilian He/him]

I think Rashek could win, but only if he has prep time, thinks like a 17th sharder, and is less overconfident. I'm talking stuff like aluminum spike guns, metal mind armor, hunting down a shardblade, etc.

Taln would probably wipe Rashek as depicted in the books

Edit: Dedicated training in stuff like duralumin and bendalloy would also help, but you're pitting someone who spent thousands of years fighting and getting tortured against someone who spent one thousand years ruling.

Edited March 10, 2025 by Qianweilian

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Vambram said:

What if a full powered Mistborn such as Rashek, or perhaps even Vin or Elend, uses the mental and/or emotional powers of Allomancy while going up against Taln or any other herald? Would soothing or rioting be beneficial against them in such a contest? Also, if there was enough atium for the Mistborn to use, how helpful would that be for them?

The more invested someone is, the more resilient they are to emotional Allomancy. Taln, as a Herald who never abandoned the Oathpact and never even allowed Fused to Return, would be one of the most invested individuals in Cosmere, so he can just ignore any emotional Allomancy, even if Rashek hit him with all he has. 

Atium would be extremely helpful, the ability to see the future is a huge advantage in any fight. However, Heralds do have increased Fortune and they might use it similarly to Atium, as Ishar was said to be moving as he can see the future. Their Fortune might interfere with A-Atium and cause it to split shadows, as if they were burning Atium themselves. RoW ch 111:

Quote

Despite earnestly trying, none could land a blow. It was as if … as if they were trying to hit where Ishar was, while he was able to move in anticipation of where they would be.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

God-King versus God-King. Susebron versus Rashek, who comes out on top?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek, probably.

Questioner

By a lot or a little?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, here's the thing. I think Susebron is at the disadvantage in almost every situation.

Questioner

Okay. How so?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek has been alive longer. Rashek knows what he's doing. Rashek has martial training. Rashek has killed a lot of people, Susebron never has. Fewer scruples. His magic is way more combat-oriented. He can get out of range a lot easier. He has power emotional Allomancy, which Susebron would *inaudible*.

Granted, he's got so much investiture, he may be able to shrug that off. But still, I would put Rashek at the advantage.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 3/10/2025 at 8:28 AM, alder24 said:

Atium would be extremely helpful, the ability to see the future is a huge advantage in any fight. However, Heralds do have increased Fortune and they might use it similarly to Atium, as Ishar was said to be moving as he can see the future. 

I could be wrong, but I didn't think that Ishar's ability to move as though he could see the future was a function of Fortune, just mundane skill taken to a level no human could ever attain without immortality. Ishar had been fighting so long and gotten so much practice that he could instinctively read the flow of a fight, know from a person's slightest twitch what their next moves would be in the same way that a chess grandmaster can think three or four moves ahead in a chess match.

As for the OP question, I think a lot of it hinges on exactly what resources each side has. How much Feruchemical Investiture does Rashek have stored? Does Taln have a finite quantity of Stormlight and if so how much? Where is the fight taking place? If it's taking place out of doors, Rashek could probably do very well by using steel to take to the air and pelting Taln with coins to wound him and use up his Stormlight reserves (assuming Taln has a finite quantity of Stormlight and is not being refilled by Honor). Or if Rashek has big enough Feruchemical reserves, he might be able to use hyper-compounded zinc and steel to beat out even Taln's speed and reflexes and get in a blow that would pulp Taln's head (which even Stormlight won't let you survive). But on the flip side, if Rashek can't Compound high enough to beat out Taln's speed and get in a killing blow, Taln probably has the edge in a close-quarters fight. I'm pretty sure Stormlight can heal physical injuries more cheaply and quickly than gold Feruchemy can heal spiritual damage, and even Rashek's healing won't save him if the Honorblade hits his head or spine... 

Yeah, too many variables to really make a call.

[Nitpicking]

3 hours ago, Aeshdan said:

... But on the flip side, if Rashek can't Compound high enough to beat out Taln's speed and get in a killing blow, Taln probably has the edge in a close-quarters fight. I'm pretty sure Stormlight can heal physical injuries more cheaply and quickly than gold Feruchemy can heal spiritual damage, and even Rashek's healing won't save him if the Honorblade hits his head or spine...

I happen to be rereading Alloy of Law, and Miles Hundredlives compounds gold to heal better than a Radiant, including recovering from literally having his brains blown out by Wax. You have to assume Rashek could do it better than Miles. And also has pewter.

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I happen to be rereading Alloy of Law, and Miles Hundredlives compounds gold to heal better than a Radiant, including recovering from literally having his brains blown out by Wax. You have to assume Rashek could do it better than Miles. And also has pewter.

I wouldn't say he was necessarily healing better than Radiant, 3rd Oath Shallan got crossbow bolt lodged in her head and was mostly functional.
Similarly, Kaladin kicked Shardplate hard enough to crack it and throw it aside (dozens of lashings), and his broken bones immediately healed, compare to Miles dropping ~10 meters and healing as he lands. Still at 3rd Oath he was healing severed spine fast enough that it was nearly fully restored in the space between two stabs, that is milisecond scale.
Now extrapolate these two Oaths up.

He certainly had more control over it, choosing how quickly to tap, which so far Radiants haven't showed.

In WoBs Brandon also puts these two on basically the same level

Of course, Heralds might heal worse than Radiants, at least the healing provided by Honorblades is strictly inferior (no spirit healing + much less efficient).

Edited April 14, 2025 by therunner