Question on hiding a Dawnshard

[XaviGzz]

Hi all,

I tried searching the forum and could not find a discussion on this question, I apologize if this has already been asked/discussed.

As the title says, given that TOdium was able to get a hold of Hoid significantly in the epilogue of RoW, to the extent that he could excise some breaths, how did TOdium miss the dawnshard? I don't think Hoid had the time to go off-world and come back with the Dawnshard during the events of WaT. Seems like a big oversight, even for a new Vessel. 

[ShatteredDiamond She/Her]

Well, as far as I know, he hasn't sensed Rysn's dawnshard either. Granted, I don't recall him ever focusing on her the way he did on Hoid. Maybe he just can't sense the dawnshards or something.

[LeondeBowa]

I think your making an assumption that the dawnshards are somehow obvious, we have no evidence that that is true.

It could be that when they have a host the dawnshards is "hidden" by the body it is implanted in and is not obvious.

Hoid read as more worried about the shard once he is killed by retribution imo

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, XaviGzz said:

Hi all,

I tried searching the forum and could not find a discussion on this question, I apologize if this has already been asked/discussed.

As the title says, given that TOdium was able to get a hold of Hoid significantly in the epilogue of RoW, to the extent that he could excise some breaths, how did TOdium miss the dawnshard? I don't think Hoid had the time to go off-world and come back with the Dawnshard during the events of WaT. Seems like a big oversight, even for a new Vessel. 

1 hour ago, LeondeBowa said:

Hoid read as more worried about the shard once he is killed by retribution imo

^This^ was pretty much stated explicitely. Taravangian could not find the dawnshaed unless he knew to look for it (and even then it might be obscured) or if it was revealed by vaporizing the Vessel. WaT Ch 146:

Spoiler

Get off this planet as soon as you can. Keep it away from him, Sig. Our only advantage is that he doesn’t know it’s here. Unfortunately, if he kills me while I hold it, he’ll discover the truth. You he’ll ignore. Hopefully.”

Hope that helps

[TheoreticalMagic]

19 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

^This^ was pretty much stated explicitely. Taravangian could not find the dawnshaed unless he knew to look for it (and even then it might be obscured) or if it was revealed by vaporizing the Vessel. WaT Ch 146:

  Hide contents

Get off this planet as soon as you can. Keep it away from him, Sig. Our only advantage is that he doesn’t know it’s here. Unfortunately, if he kills me while I hold it, he’ll discover the truth. You he’ll ignore. Hopefully.”

Yeah, this. My interpretation is that because the Dawnshards likely can't be destroyed, the one guaranteed way to expose them is to vaporize whoever's holding one since what you'd be left with is the indestructible Dawnshard. Now utterly unprotected and easily swiped up by the first person to spot it and go oooh shiny. Which in this case would of course be Taravangian. Who loves shiny new things even without an expanded Shard consciousness & knowledge base telling him "hey that thing is very special and important, we want that, get that now." 

Edited January 21, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[#1 Taln Fan he/him]

As per the Forum Guidelines, please keep spoilers out of topic titles. I've gone ahead and changed the title of this topic for you

[alder24]

21 hours ago, XaviGzz said:

Hi all,

I tried searching the forum and could not find a discussion on this question, I apologize if this has already been asked/discussed.

As the title says, given that TOdium was able to get a hold of Hoid significantly in the epilogue of RoW, to the extent that he could excise some breaths, how did TOdium miss the dawnshard? I don't think Hoid had the time to go off-world and come back with the Dawnshard during the events of WaT. Seems like a big oversight, even for a new Vessel. 

Hard to say, but the fact that he once was a Dawnshard before and his soul was warped by it (which is something everyone knows about) was the main reason for it. Odium might have spotted some of the Dawnshard's effects on Hoid's soul but he dismissed it as his Torment from the past Dawnshard and he didn't realize Hoid is a Dawnshard once more. 

Moreover, I suspect that you can hide a Dawnshard just like you can hide a Divine Breath - invest it deep within yourself. All of the visible effects of being a Dawnshard would be suppressed and Taravangian just couldn't see it or he confused it with his Torment and his Breaths. Killing Hoid would result in dropping the Dawnshard, revealing the truth.

WaT I-15:

Quote

“You took it up again?” Nikli demanded, stepping toward him. “You … That’s why no one can find it. You gave it up, but then took it again at some point, hiding it—because the signs would be dismissed as lingering aftereffects of your long-standing tenure. Then … you brought it here to Roshar? Why in all the cosmere would you do something so reckless? Even you should know better.”

 

Spoiler

Mark

It was said throughout the book that you cannot just give some of your breath, but must give all of it. Perhaps I'm simply forgetting part of the book where this changes, but wouldn't Vasher have to give his Returned breath along with his others?

Brandon Sanderson

The "You must give up all of your Breath, not some" line was mostly perpetuated by Denth, who is saying it to Vivenna to stop her from giving away her Breath to all the people she passes. It is a lie. Now, it's a lie that's commonly accepted by a lot of people. But it's still a lie—as we find out midway through the book, you can stick some of your Breath in an object and bring it to life, and then recover that Breath. So it's very easy to give some of your Breath to someone if you know the logical steps to take. Invest most of it into an object, give what you have to someone else, then pull back what you Invested. So it's flat-out proven in the novel that what Denth is telling her is wrong. Now, he could dance around that lie by pretending to be the ignorant mercenary—he's just perpetuating a falsehood that many people believe. But it is a lie. In fact, a lot of the things people believe about BioChromatic Breath isn't true.

One of the things I was trying with this book was to take a few steps back from MISTBORN, where so much was understood. I feel that the approach I took in MISTBORN is right for that book, and yet people have so much superstition regarding all sorts of science. I worry sometimes that there isn't enough superstition in my books, regarding magic as science. What people believed and what people knew and what people understood was so varied and confused throughout most of history, that I worry that I lack realism in that. Vasher brings up at several points in the book that they don't know a whole lot and that people perpetuate a lot of myths and stories and lies.

Vasher has learned to suppress his Returned Breath. When it's suppressed, it's as if it doesn't exist to him. He's Invested it into a place within himself, much like you can Invest your Breaths into a shirt, and when he gives away the rest of his Breaths, he doesn't give that one away. He could split off others of his Breaths if he wanted to—he's learned to do that, so that he could give a few Breaths and not all. It's just a matter of practicing as long as he has. But even people who aren't as practiced as him do it all the time when they Invest an object with not all of their Breath but just enough to bring it to life

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

[Landis963 he/him]

I assumed it worked on the same principle as Glys, Tumi, Timbre, and any other examples I've forgotten, where a spren can hide inside their Radiant.