LeondeBowa

I mean autonomy has already demonstrated the ability to subvert kandra using a spike of what is suspected to be her own metal.

I remember in the sunlit man, when they realised the protagonist was roshiran they were very interested if he had sworn oaths. It implies that roshirans are considered dangerous because of their oaths, which seems out of sorts for the standard knights radiant

Agreeing with nitpicking, the fits are dope

The shard is literally defined by her ability to plan for the future, why is it a bad thing that she succeeds about doing it? There's a level of hostility to the idea she still has an influence I really don't understand

Windmill Slam Whimsy, best shard, no arguments

I mean, I'm not trying to describe her as a Mary sue, mainly I'm trying to point out that she might not have been blindsided by this. Completely honestly I actually like the idea it is frost on a level but all the talk I've seen around Cultivation has been an assumption that she f-ed up and I don't know why If I'm being unkind, it honestly seems a little misogynistic Each interaction between Todium and Cultivation has been her trying a different plan as each one fails, but we're ment to assume that she definitely couldn't have planned for this last one because???? Like Hoid don't expect it but that doesn't mean it's unpredictable

She's had her ego and entire world view shattered by Todium, I'm not sure she's up for doing anything for a while

Had to double check this one, this is a thought made by retribution, how would they know what cultivation was feeling when they ejected. If there was a plan, a key part of it would be to make sure retribution doesn't realise they're getting played. I don't think we can see this as reliable evidence that cultivation didn't uave this as a possible plan.

My main argument against is that it is an out of context threat in the story, which doesn't make much sense at this point. Also it would require the shards described to have access to a special power which is unique to them that is outside of their theme which doesn't make sense. I would consider the idea it is frost to be more likely than another shard as the shards are so large, they influence the environment around them to the degree they cannot hide themselves. Why if another shard is involved has there not been more signs of their influence, more than a strange moon, especially if you're insisting they were around long enough for them to have influenced Nohadon too? Why have the other shards not been able to find him so close by? Also how exactly was she caught off guard? All the information we had was she fled once retribution came into existence, we know future sight works on possibilities, she probably at most knew retribution was possible and could have waited ready in case it didn't. Cultivation works as an intent for Nohadon equal or better than reason or Valor, and she has the means, motive and opportunity if she wanted to influence and grab his cognitive shadow on death

Nitpicking, the woman who became cultivation was a dragon who worked with Hoid to kill/separate god. Did that woman have a relationship to frost

I think a more interesting question is that this means that any physical form of investiture can be used for hemalurgy, which has interesting implications

Question nitpicking, did cultivation and frost have any relationship in the dragonsteel novel? Could this be then working together? They are both dragons from the same world I do have to agree with Spartanbrigade, frost is too out of context to be a satisfying answer, but if they're acting as a catspaw for cultivation, I think it works

I'll admit I haven't, but I will say it's possible. Hopefully we'll get a canon dragonsteel some time soon so we can make a canon comparison

I would also point out that on average the smarter a person is, the easier it is to fool them because they work from the assumption they know what you are doing and that they would see anything you do coming

To be clear the specific instance you are talking about was adolins plate when he summoned it from the fused who was wearing it right? Because I thought that was because they were dustbringer spren

You're right... In the next scene of the book, Syl has changed form and is described wearing a dress "for a queen" and has eyes full of storms. So I'd say it went to her as the stormfathers heir. It wasn't really focused on in the scene

So in the latest book dalinar has conversations with the a spirit posing as Nohadon, I've seen in this fourm a few supposing it's Valor in disguise, after rereading it seems really obvious it's Cultivation. Nohadon was a man who was focused on building and growing the correct attitude towards ruling and eventually wrote a book on it. It's made clear that shards need to have a connection to a person to influence them or send them visions, we know this as it was discussed by odium and moash in the previous book to have the visions of blaze sent to Kaladin. dalinar has connections to 3 shards honour, odium and cultivation, we have no evidence of any chance for a theoretical Valor shard to have connections to him, leaving the only option to be cultivation. It's been repeated multiple times cultivation hates acting directly, and considering this was in the middle of the contest, she may not have been allowed to act directly. This also supports the idea that this could all still be part of cultivations plan, which I admit I just like the idea of. WDYT?

Best guess, following entropy, the investiture was converted to heat energy Investiture in this world is basically an extra form of energy, so it can t be destroyed but it can be converted to another form. Vaporised implies heat so...

In a way, this means odium works because it expresses the jealousy, the insult the shardholder would feel when it perceives something outside itself, as it would see it as a barrier or rival to continuing it's indulgence I would disagree with your original point about passion being more accurate as passion has a more selfless element that is not present in the shard odium, hence me bringing up devotion

Okay, so we are saying similar enough things but we are arguing over phrasings and emphasis. I would argue the descripter of positive or negative are not useful discussing odium, but I would say a good discriptor would be selfish, all the emotions the shard encourages are there to feed the shareholders base desires and encourage them to consume more, to indulge more and revel in the emotions

Okay acebass, can you state what you think odium is clearly for me please and the reason you believe so, because I am having trouble understanding your point of view.

Okay, so the problem we are having is around absolutes, I would NOT say someone holding odiums shard would be unable to to feel or express other emotions but that does not mean the shard is a passion shard, the shard inculcates and encourages negative selfish emotions like hate and the complimentary emotions which justify and rationalise those emotions like sadness and rage, but the largest and ultimate source is the hate, the Odium I would also point out the bravery quote you have used is not odium, it's before Taraviangian picked up the shard

You're saying it's passion, where is the love, the care, the positive emotions that let you engage with others? They aren't in Odium. They are in Devotion, I would agree that the combination of Odium and Devotion could be called Passion, but that isn't Odium

He actively isn't just passion mate, the text says that explicitly and WoB too.

By the same logic, he would be far more familiar with what an honour spren looks like but chooses to describe syl. Kalaks problem is a pathological inability to make choices and that could lead to him being unable to make definite statements even in his own mind