I don't get some of the hate

[alder24]

17 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

One one level, that feels like semantics and not much of a difference at all. Then again, we're talking about Brandon, so clearly there is some be deal with the Beyond specifically that I'm sure we'll hear about in 2055ish. So yeah, that's a valid point, and I wasn't actually aware of the specific mechanics of how Dalinar had done the things he's done. That still doesn't really explain his connection to Nohadon and the conversations they had. Did Dalinar Connec to him instictively? Did Nohadon do something? Or was there some other factor(s) at play that we don't know about yet?

There are ways to achieve what Dalinar did with Nohadon, Evi and Tien that don't involve the Beyond. This can be explained by either him reaching to the Beyond and Connecting to the real person there, or reaching to the Spiritual Realm and Connecting to the Spiritual remnants of their Spirit Web, making raw investiture take up their form as a sort of puppet to interact with. We won't know if the Beyond is real, but what's happening with Nohadon's visions can be explained without it (even if he's really dead). 

Spoiler

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[Soccorro]

21 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Or is Dalinar just the baddest of the bad with Connection) and was still able to Connect with those he loved the most, even after the Stormfather was completely destroyed (which should have terminated all of his Bondsmithing abilities since he was not holding Honor at all, and yet he did

Seems that you found another plot hole. I didn’t notice it. Nice

 

21 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

that person decided to sacrifice himself instead of being a god, giving Honor the gift of life

I don’t even want to open this “whether or not Dalinar’s decision was stupid” can of warms because it was discussed a lot and no one will change their minds. For me, Dalinar’s decision screams “BS wants to write 5 more books hence we need a conflict and a villain”. Literally every other solution is better than what Dalinar has done but he was forced do something stupid because it will change status quo to set up another arc. Holding Honor, having spren and alive Stormfather and full power Radiant Knights on his side and having years to think about better solution? Pffff winning useless moral debate with old man is more important than fate of this poor planet. Not to mention that BS either forgot or retconned what he wrote in previous book. In previous book it was clearly stated that shards ignore Odium because he’s trapped on Roshar and can’t be a threat for them. But now shards will ignore free Odium and pay attention only on double shard. In book 4 Odium asked Dalinar to free him and Dalinar refused because “I can’t make you everyone else’s problem that’s irresponsible”. Well in this book Dalinar made Odium everyone else’s problem and fleed. How Dalinar knows that shards indeed will fly on Roshar and kicks Odium’s ass? Did he read outline for second arc? Or he is just irresponsible dude who doomed everyone because there’s one little chance that big mighty shards will solve all his problems? I also don’t like the moral of this story. “You can’t win so sit down and pray that deus ex machinas from space will save you”

 

And that’s only half of the problem. As I said, others might find Dalinar’s decision to be genius and beautiful. I disagree but to each their own. But Dalinar’s death itself was so poorly done. He died offscreen. Rock kicked him in the head and he died. Offscreen. One of the main character is offscreened by the rock. There’s no emotional powerful scene of Dalinar’s last standing against the storm. His family and those who were fond of him like Kaladin and Syl show from little to no reaction to his death. Just compare it to Teft’s death that was more impactful and emotional than Dalinar’s

22 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

as there is a Spiritual Aspect with all of his memories running around

I mean that’s not Dalinar that’s mindless evil spren. In best case scenario we will disappear when Hoid tells people of Roshar about Dalinar’s sacrifice, in worse case scenario we will get another cringe fest where Adolin on 2 peg legs will easily defeat the blackthorn. Chances that BS does something interesting with evil Dalinar twin isn’t zero but after cartoonish villains like Abidi (Gayat!), Lezian and Moash my hopes aren’t very high

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, Soccorro said:

Seems that you found another plot hole. I didn’t notice it. Nice

 

I don’t even want to open this “whether or not Dalinar’s decision was stupid” can of warms because it was discussed a lot and no one will change their minds. For me, Dalinar’s decision screams “BS wants to write 5 more books hence we need a conflict and a villain”. Literally every other solution is better than what Dalinar has done but he was forced do something stupid because it will change status quo to set up another arc. Holding Honor, having spren and alive Stormfather and full power Radiant Knights on his side and having years to think about better solution? Pffff winning useless moral debate with old man is more important than fate of this poor planet. Not to mention that BS either forgot or retconned what he wrote in previous book. In previous book it was clearly stated that shards ignore Odium because he’s trapped on Roshar and can’t be a threat for them. But now shards will ignore free Odium and pay attention only on double shard. In book 4 Odium asked Dalinar to free him and Dalinar refused because “I can’t make you everyone else’s problem that’s irresponsible”. Well in this book Dalinar made Odium everyone else’s problem and fleed. How Dalinar knows that shards indeed will fly on Roshar and kicks Odium’s ass? Did he read outline for second arc? Or he is just irresponsible dude who doomed everyone because there’s one little chance that big mighty shards will solve all his problems? I also don’t like the moral of this story. “You can’t win so sit down and pray that deus ex machinas from space will save you”

 

And that’s only half of the problem. As I said, others might find Dalinar’s decision to be genius and beautiful. I disagree but to each their own. But Dalinar’s death itself was so poorly done. He died offscreen. Rock kicked him in the head and he died. Offscreen. One of the main character is offscreened by the rock. There’s no emotional powerful scene of Dalinar’s last standing against the storm. His family and those who were fond of him like Kaladin and Syl show from little to no reaction to his death. Just compare it to Teft’s death that was more impactful and emotional than Dalinar’s

I mean that’s not Dalinar that’s mindless evil spren. In best case scenario we will disappear when Hoid tells people of Roshar about Dalinar’s sacrifice, in worse case scenario we will get another cringe fest where Adolin on 2 peg legs will easily defeat the blackthorn. Chances that BS does something interesting with evil Dalinar twin isn’t zero but after cartoonish villains like Abidi (Gayat!), Lezian and Moash my hopes aren’t very high

I dont see it that way, but I certainly can understand why (with you seeing the story with this perspective) that you feel the way you do. I hope that the back 5 and the Cosmere gets better for you in the long run (since all the narratives will merge in some form eventually), and I’m sorry that it feels that bad for you..that really sucks.

[Nitpicking]

On 1/24/2025 at 10:44 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

... still able to Connect with those he loved the most, even after the Stormfather was completely destroyed (which should have terminated all of his Bondsmithing abilities since he was not holding Honor at all ...

He was the Vessel of Honor briefly. He's a Sliver of Honor, right up until entering the Beyond. That's why he survived so long in the Cognitive Realm after dying.

[Elegy he/him]

I think that Dalinar's decision works really well on paper, but we needed more of an indication that his sacrifice was actually worthwhile. Like, some genuinely positive things that are direct consequences of it, and not quite as many that we will have to wait for book 10 to see if they play out in a way that makes it work. Hoid claims that Dalinar is a "genius" for what he did, but how is Dalinar a genius if the most probable outcome of his decision was that everyone is doomed? Brandon should have implanted more positive things to come out of what he did. This way is doesn't feel satisfying.

But I really, really like the decision as an idea, and all the ways it plays into themes and arcs of the books that were mostly set up from book 1. Really great stuff there. It just would have needed more revisions to really work on page imo.

[MagicMaggot]

35 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Like, some genuinely positive things that are direct consequences of it

LIke... Retribution going into hiding, and stating that he would have to leave Roshar under a regent? Or Retribution showing new restrictions by honoring borders that he technically didn't have to, because the shard of Honor wanted him to? Or what kinds of immediate positives do you have in mind? Because I have a hard time thinking of some more that wouldn't require going directly into Dalinar's impressions of the future, which would just be spoilers. 

 

[Elegy he/him]

7 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

LIke... Retribution going into hiding, and stating that he would have to leave Roshar under a regent? Or Retribution showing new restrictions by honoring borders that he technically didn't have to, because the shard of Honor wanted him to? Or what kinds of immediate positives do you have in mind? Because I have a hard time thinking of some more that wouldn't require going directly into Dalinar's impressions of the future, which would just be spoilers. 

As evident in this thread, many people see Dalinar's decision as an absolute defeat and the dumbest thing anyone in the Cosmere has ever done - and while I don't, it shows that Brandon has not made it clear enough that what Dalinar did was a good thing. He had several years to either figure out a situation that would have made more protections possible, or to make it the way it is now, but better showcase that the situation at the end of the book is better than all alternatives. Whatever it is, the reactions imply that the effect of "Dalinar's genius decision has gifted Roshar/the Cosmere a chance to finally deal with Odium" has not reached a sizable chunk of the readers. Yet it's what Brandon tells the readers via Hoid, so it's obviously how he wants them to react, but it's evidently not what many people feel. So he should have worked on better ways to get that point across.

[MagicMaggot]

18 minutes ago, Elegy said:

As evident in this thread, many people see Dalinar's decision as an absolute defeat and the dumbest thing anyone in the Cosmere has ever done - and while I don't, it shows that Brandon has not made it clear enough that what Dalinar did was a good thing.

I get that. What I don't see is what you think he could have thrown in to avoid that reaction, while keeping the plot. I guess the prose could always have been better, and dialogues more persuasive, but I read your comment about showing consequences as something that would require a change in content and not just in form, or did I get you wrong in that?

I personally think the prove of Dalinar's supposed genius would always have to be judged by what came after. If readers that stayed loyal for 5 long books don't trust Sanderson to deliver on that, I just doubt that Dalinar's decision had a very large part in their reaction, rather than the 1000-2000 pages that preceded it. 

Edited January 26, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Elegy he/him]

24 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

I get that. What I don't see is what you think he could have thrown in to avoid that reaction, while keeping the plot. I guess the prose could always have been better, and dialogues more persuasive, but I read your comment about showing consequences as something that would require a change in content and not just in form, or did I get you wrong in that?

I personally think the prove of Dalinar's supposed genius would always have to be judged by what came after. If readers that stayed loyal for 5 long books don't trust Sanderson to deliver on that, I just doubt that Dalinar's decision had a very large part in their reaction, rather than the 1000-2000 pages that preceded it. 

It's hard to say what would be enough to make it work for me. For example, I could imagine that shifting the tone of Retribution's POV scenes at the end would already do a lot. We see the restrictions that taking up Honor has given him, but he's still gloating and happy about his new power, and he even gets his own Blackthorn either way, the very thing that Odium has wanted since the time of the Dalinar flashbacks. It just feels too much of a victory for him to make Dalinar's gambit work in my opinion.

But I would have to read a version that changes that to really say if that would be enough. There's some problems that wouldn't solve. For example, If Kaladin's arc hadn't ended up at the exact same place at the exact same time, Dalinar's "genius" decision would have killed all spren. How would that have been a better outcome than killing Gavinor? Kaladin's contribution is absolutely essential for his gambit to work, but if I remember correctly, Dalinar did not explicitly know that Kaladin would be able to do this. This, on the other hand, could be solved by having Dalinar glance into the future while holding Honor and seeing the possibility that they could be saved. As far as I know, that didn't happen.

So yeah, hard to say. I know I personally would like to change many things about the actual plot of the book, but regardless, I believe that it would have been possible to leave most of it untouched, just fix a few scenes here and there and get a more widely accepted and more satisfying ending that conveys the themes just as well and builds up hype despite not feeling as catastrophic as the one we got. But I get that many people like the catastrophic aspect of the ending. I just think that it doesn't really work with the "genius" part of Dalinar's plan.

Edited January 26, 2025 by Elegy
Phrasing

[MagicMaggot]

34 minutes ago, Elegy said:

For example, I could imagine that shifting the tone of Retribution's POV scenes at the end would already do a lot.

I personally read him as frustrated and angry, not really gloating at all, after he realized what actually was happening. 

Quote

 

He immediately saw what Dalinar had done. Odium had expected to have centuries to plan. Suddenly he had lost all of that. The true battle for the cosmere started right now.

No! he thought. I’m not ready."

[...]

Odium had expected to have centuries to plan. Suddenly he had lost all of that. The true battle for the cosmere started right now.

No! he thought. I’m not ready.

[...]
He would have to leave Roshar under a regent, as he needed to plan how to evade this trap that Dalinar had created for him. How? How had the man been so clever? How had Taravangian not seen this?
[..]
Why should Taravangian feel defeated when he’d won everything?
[...]
There was turmoil, and the geography had been broken in ways he hadn’t anticipated.

Dalinar. Foolish, stubborn Dalinar.

Dalinar Kholin, the man who had known.

I mean, as you would expect there is a good deal of emotional instability going on with the vessel of Odium, but the text leaves no doubt that this wasn't an outcome he was happy with, and that he personally blamed Dalinar for everything that went against his plans.
 

34 minutes ago, Elegy said:

This, on the other hand, could be solved by having Dalinar glance into the future while holding Honor and seeing the possibility that they could be saved. As far as I know, that didn't happen.

He did foresee it, here:

Quote

Kaladin will preserve a piece … That’s what we need … 
Now that he knew the end he wanted, Dalinar could see the answers.

He only decides on his course after that realization. Once again, maybe it could have been told in a way that got through to more people, but it certainly was in the text. 

34 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I believe that it would have been possible to leave most of it untouched, just fix a few scenes here and there and get a more widely accepted and more satisfying ending that conveys the themes just as well and builds up hype despite not feeling as catastrophic as the one we got.

Okay, let's just say I'm not convinced on that. That's too close to armchair quarterbacking for me. 

Edited January 26, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Elegy he/him]

6 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Okay, let's just say I'm not convinced on that. That's too close to armchair quarterbacking for me. 

Yeah, it's completely fair to disagree with my evaluations. (That said, maybe I should add that I'm a writer myself, so I'm not just looking at this from a reader's perspective but also as kind of a "peer" who has struggled with similar problems in his own books, although of course Brandon is on an entirely different level of professionalism.) Thanks for pointing out the Kaladin thing, I didn't have that on my radar anymore!

The Fakethorn though is definitely a huge part of the problem for me, like, there's nothing about that one that works for me, even apart from the point I made about him undermining Dalinar's achievements.

[MagicMaggot]

10 minutes ago, Elegy said:

The Fakethorn though is definitely a huge part of the problem for me, like, there's nothing about that one that works for me

As a part of SA, I agree. As a cosmere villain it might work for me, though. My hope would be that we won't really see much of him in 6-10, but will rather see Scadrians, the Selish or others face him as an enormously dangerous raider that's recognizable to me as a reader. I wouldn't want to see Adolin or Navani react to him, but I have no problem in Ghostbloods and friends darkening their pants at the revelation of who they are dealing with. I guess Sanderson wanted his Darth Vader, and I might be here for that. 

But yeah, even in that best case, the creation of the Blackthorn was a distracting negative for WaT. And well, the worst cases are pretty bad. 

[QuantumAce]

On 1/26/2025 at 10:48 AM, Elegy said:

Whatever it is, the reactions imply that the effect of "Dalinar's genius decision has gifted Roshar/the Cosmere a chance to finally deal with Odium" has not reached a sizable chunk of the readers. Yet it's what Brandon tells the readers via Hoid, so it's obviously how he wants them to react, but it's evidently not what many people feel. So he should have worked on better ways to get that point across.

I would say it hasn't reached a sizable chunk of his readers yet. Much of his writing requires at least one re-read for the average reader to digest. Climaxes are incredibly dense and it can be easy to miss key details scattered throughout the lighter sections. Many of my initial complaints have been tempered by rereading a few specific passages. Looking back over previous books has also helped adjust my perspective a bit. I still wish Dalinar had picked any number of other options, but it feels a little more natural.  

 

22 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

But yeah, even in that best case, the creation of the Blackthorn was a distracting negative for WaT. And well, the worst cases are pretty bad. 

Yeah, still feels like that was awkwardly shoehorned in as a setup for something in the back half. Not sure where Brandon is going with that, but hopefully the payoff is better than the introduction. 

Edited January 27, 2025 by QuantumAce

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

2 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

I would say it hasn't reached a sizable chunk of his readers yet. Much of his writing requires at least one re-read for the average reader to digest. Climaxes are incredibly dense and it can be easy to miss key details scattered throughout the lighter sections. Many of my initial complaints have been tempered by rereading a few specific passages. Looking back over previous books has also helped adjust my perspective a bit. I still wish Dalinar had picked any number of other options, but it feels a little more natural. 

Well said, and always worth repeating when it comes to stuff Brandon (especially) writes.

3 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

22 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

But yeah, even in that best case, the creation of the Blackthorn was a distracting negative for WaT. And well, the worst cases are pretty bad. 

Yeah, still feels like that was awkwardly shoehorned in as a setup for something in the back half. Not sure where Brandon is going with that, but hopefully the payoff is better than the introduction. 

Dalinar was never, ever going to submit to Taravangian. Even if he became his servant, he'd do what he was told, but he wouldn't ever agree with Taravangian. There was a WoB somewhere, where Brandon talks about how he had to decide whether to let Taravangian live or die in RoW, and he obviously didn't let him die. I don't know what the storyline would have been with Rayse alive, but wildly different for sure. 

With the story going the way it is, Taravangian needs an antagonist he has a chance of convinced that the TOdium way, is the right way. I believe he'll ultimately fail, even with this other version of Dalinar, but I don't feel that it's shoehorned in. I do feel that The Blackthorn exists almost exclusively for Taravangian..and probably for the Kholin family, as time goes on.

[agbaby]

On 1/26/2025 at 10:48 AM, Elegy said:

As evident in this thread, many people see Dalinar's decision as an absolute defeat and the dumbest thing anyone in the Cosmere has ever done - and while I don't, it shows that Brandon has not made it clear enough that what Dalinar did was a good thing. 

a lot of people think Shallan is a terrible character that isnt worth any screen time. I think it's a tough look for them, but to each their own.

I think it was a really balanced ending - the genius of it was that it was making the best of a bad situation, not that it was a genuinely good option. A high risk gambit that has high reward potential. A David strategy, so to speak, against Goliath. It's not without flaws, and it wasn't perfect, but that was the whole fracking point.

I'm trying not to sound too critical but sometimes I read people being critical of things (not just this book, but in other very popular stories and art too) and it sounds like they want the author to hold their hand through everything and spell it out for them. to me, as I've read that specific critique, that's what it sounds like they actually want. Just my two cents

[Elegy he/him]

1 hour ago, agbaby said:

a lot of people think Shallan is a terrible character that isnt worth any screen time. I think it's a tough look for them, but to each their own.

I get what you mean, in the sense that many people disliking a certain aspect of a book doesn't mean it's necessary to rework it. But I think these are two different situations. With characters, you can't attempt to please everyone in the first place - any character with a lot of personality (and let's be honest, especially female characters with a lot of personality) will bother people. Doing a character right means that there will be people who dislike them, because people who feel alive will be dislikable to a certain amount of readers.

I think it's an entirely different ghing with a climactic pay-off like Dalinar's sacrifice - especially since the Hoid scenes make it so abundantly clear what Brandon's intention was. His intention was not that everyone would like Shallan. But his intention was that everyone thought Dalinar did something worthwhile. Like, he lets Hoid spell it out to the readers why they are supposed to feel that way. And many fundamentally disagree that Dalinar has accomplished what the book obviously wants us to believe he has.

To sum it up, you know you've done a character right when there are people who love them and identify with them and other people who are annoyed by them. And you know you've done a pay-off wrong when a sizable amount of your readers think that it's unsatisfying and not well set-up, or even disagree with the whole foundation of the decision the character made. Brandon has said things that amount to just that in WOBs before, and I agree with him.

(As an aside that doesn't really change my point, I personally think that Shallan is an amazing character and I genuinely believe that her arc - with her giant memory jigsaw and the personalities and all the intricacies that combination entails - is one of the most creative and ambitious things Brandon - or any storyteller - has ever done.)

Edited February 1, 2025 by Elegy

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, agbaby said:

a lot of people think Shallan is a terrible character that isnt worth any screen time. I think it's a tough look for them, but to each their own.

41 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I get what you mean, in the sense that many people disliking a certain aspect of a book doesn't mean it's necessary to rework it. But I think these are two different situations. With characters, you can't attempt to please everyone in the first place - any character with a lot of personality (and let's be honest, especially female characters with a lot of personality) will bother people. Doing a character right means that there will be people who dislike them, because people who feel alive will be dislikable to a certain amount of readers.

<snip>

(As an aside that doesn't really change my point, I personally think that Shallan is an amazing character and I genuinely believe that her arc - with her giant memory jigsaw and the personalities and all the intricacies that combination entails - is one of the most creative and ambitious things Brandon - or any storyteller - has ever done.)

Also, please consider that not everybody dissatisfied with Shallan is dissatisfied because of the character. There are some (like me) who dislike the Shallan portions because of her character arc, not because of her as a character. Discussed, at length, in this (now closed) Shallan opinions thread (and the many similar threads). For me, I disliked the way DID was handled, especially in Oathbringer.

55 minutes ago, Elegy said:

But his intention was that everyone thought Dalinar did something worthwhile. Like, he lets Hoid spell it out to the readers why they are supposed to feel that way. And many fundamentally disagree that Dalinar has accomplished what the book obviously wants us to believe he has.

I think there was more set-up for this ending than many peoiple realize on their first reading. I, for one, have been hoping for this for a long time (even if it happened in a way that I did not expect).

[king of nowhere]

On 1/10/2025 at 7:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"Shallan sucks"? She's a cruel, narcissistic, melodramatic, vindictive bully whose definition of accountability for herself is "forgiving and accepting myself". She's liked only by Hoid, who she hugged once, and by Adolin, who managed to offend every single woman in the warcamps despite being the heir to Kholinar which you might think would make girls pretty tolerant of him, and who has such a hard time saying "no" to women that when he had to tell a girl she couldn't fight on the front lines, he all but adopted her. 

 

what?

how is shallan cruel? how is she vindicative? did i miss some major parts of her character? show me a single scene where she is cruel or vindicative. i wouldn't call her a bully either, though she does tend to get things done her way, so does kaladin, or pretty much anyone else.

shallan is a good person grown up in horrible company. she killed her mother, her father, her best friend, and two of her mentors; of those, four were clearly instances of self-defence, and the fifth was basically an accident. i don't see how she can be accounted for those acts.

in fact, shallan probably has the lowest body count among main characters, by far. i don't remember her killing anyone else.

her only real fault was being part of the ghostbloods for so long, which i pin down to immaturity and not wanting to face her problems.

[+Wax he/him]

I think criticisms are valid broadly.

i’d still buy the book 5 times over.

Nobody is perfect. We are all human. It’s a good enough book. I still finished it.

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/26/2025 at 5:48 PM, Elegy said:

As evident in this thread, many people see Dalinar's decision as an absolute defeat and the dumbest thing anyone in the Cosmere has ever done - and while I don't, it shows that Brandon has not made it clear enough that what Dalinar did was a good thing. He had several years to either figure out a situation that would have made more protections possible, or to make it the way it is now, but better showcase that the situation at the end of the book is better than all alternatives. Whatever it is, the reactions imply that the effect of "Dalinar's genius decision has gifted Roshar/the Cosmere a chance to finally deal with Odium" has not reached a sizable chunk of the readers. Yet it's what Brandon tells the readers via Hoid, so it's obviously how he wants them to react, but it's evidently not what many people feel. So he should have worked on better ways to get that point across.

That would have made the book preachy. Hence it would have been a serious mistake. Brandon's books are good precisely because they allow multiple ways to see the same issue.
Do the Parshendi deserve to win? Did Moash have a point when he accused Kaladin of selling out to the establishment?

Abstractly speaking, if you introduce believable antagonists into your books, as you should, you will necessarily cause a part of your readers to accept their stances.

Likewise if your protagonists are to be realistic, they cannot find a perfect solution under pressure and in difficult circumstances. Now you could argue that actions should have consequences and a massacre of the spren should have happened. But that is a different issue.

[Elegy he/him]

On 3/14/2025 at 7:04 PM, Oltux72 said:

That would have made the book preachy.

Yet we got Brandon literally preaching to us via Hoid that we should see Dalinar's decision as a good one. While a good chunk of the readers disagrees. To me it sure looks that Brandon didn't accomplish what he aimed at, judging from all that's in the text.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

10 hours ago, Elegy said:

Yet we got Brandon literally preaching to us via Hoid that we should see Dalinar's decision as a good one. While a good chunk of the readers disagrees. To me it sure looks that Brandon didn't accomplish what he aimed at, judging from all that's in the text.

Hoid, however, suffers people who disagree with him, notably Frost and the 17th Shard. Furthermore his viewpoint is determined by him not being Rosharan. That means that he does not suffer the full consequences of Dalinar's decision.

[RedBlue]

Reading reactions from other people who didn’t like Dalinar’s ending, it seems to me the problem isn’t that a large chunk of readers are confused by what Dalinar did. Most understand it, but some disagree with it. As in, they think that releasing Odium was a bad play, and that Dalinar should have killed Gavinor and taken the temporary ceasefire instead.

(And it’s worth noting that the book explains Dalinar’s plan three times. Once when Adolin is teaching Yanagawn to play Towers, once when Dalinar actually goes through with it, and once when Hoid figures it out. It’s very clear.)

People disagreeing with Dalinar’s decision isn’t a writing problem, it’s people having differing opinions about what are acceptable risks and how to prioritise conflicting needs.

[Knuti]

12 hours ago, Elegy said:

Yet we got Brandon literally preaching to us via Hoid that we should see Dalinar's decision as a good one. While a good chunk of the readers disagrees. To me it sure looks that Brandon didn't accomplish what he aimed at, judging from all that's in the text.

I think You are wrong. It is the same Hoid, that negotiated the contents of the contest agreement that sloppily and whose secret goal was destroying Roshar along with Rayse and Odium. In other novels he is the narrator and thus the voice of Brandon Sanderson, here is is just a player whose POV should be under suspicion like that of anybody else, even more so for his established carelessness. No, the statement only shows us, that there is hope and that five more books will be written. Something we know anyway.

But I think, the problem runs deeper. The core trope of heroic fantasy is the glorious victory of good vs evil. So far Sanderson delivered every book, in this book the central character defaulted for moral reasons. And we cannot even say, that the choice was morally better, it was only the least unacceptabel moral choice for the character.

I am personally quite ok with it, but I do not know, if my 30 years younger self would have been too. Those yearning for the contest must have experienced it like being shown the middle finger. Especially if they identified with Dalinar who was until the end part Blackthorn. No I do not think, there is any sweetening possible.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

51 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Reading reactions from other people who didn’t like Dalinar’s ending, it seems to me the problem isn’t that a large chunk of readers are confused by what Dalinar did. Most understand it, but some disagree with it.

Absolutely.

51 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

As in, they think that releasing Odium was a bad play,

Well, no. I, for one, have no problem with releasing Odium. If i were Rosharan, I would see no valid reason for shielding the rest of the Cosmere from Odium under horrendous cost to Roshar.

The issue was that the price Dalinar payed for releasing Odium was way too high.

54 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

As in, they think that releasing Odium was a bad play, and that Dalinar should have killed Gavinor and taken the temporary ceasefire instead.

Yes. Gavinor, whatever be the excuses, is a traitor. He deserves death.

This solution is a defeat for all humans on Roshar. It may be better for the Cosmere in the long run. That remains to be seen. But to humans on Roshar it means in many cases serfdom or death. It ruins much of the ecology of the planet.

To be frank, if I were a human Rosharan, I'd see Dalinar as a traitor either out of weakness or out of excessive nobility.

55 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

People disagreeing with Dalinar’s decision isn’t a writing problem, it’s people having differing opinions about what are acceptable risks and how to prioritise conflicting needs.

Yes. Absolutely. It is necessary that people with different interests see the same events differently. And this is not just a question of outcome. A leader has an obligation to his people. Dalinar failed the people who fought under his command in his armies.

48 minutes ago, Knuti said:

But I think, the problem runs deeper. The core trope of heroic fantasy is the glorious victory of good vs evil. So far Sanderson delivered every book, in this book the central character defaulted for moral reasons. And we cannot even say, that the choice was morally better, it was only the least unacceptabel moral choice for the character.

No, I am sorry, but that is not true. Ultimately the humans are the invaders. The Stormlight Archive cannot be reduced to a tale of good versus evil.