[Discuss] Did Cultivation Plan Odium’s Champion?

[RedBlue]

First question: why did Cultivation send Dalinar to the Spiritual Realm?

The face value answer is that she wanted him to gain the knowledge he needed to take up Honor. But if that was her only goal, wasn’t that a very risky way to go about it?

She could, presumably, have sent curated visions to tell Dalinar exactly what he needed to know, similar to what the Stormfather did. Or she could have just explained it like a normal person. No need to take the risk of sending him into a dangerous environment he might not return from.

Unless she had a secondary goal.
 

Second question: Taravangian was quite lucky to get hold of Gavinor. Was he too lucky?

Using Gav as Champion was by far the most eloquent way to make his point to Dalinar and prove himself ‘right.’ It’s not that Taravangian was in a tough spot; he could have picked some random Fused and let the Contest be a real fight, or picked some random kid and forced the same moral dilemma. But getting hold of Gav was clearly his preferred outcome, by a long way.

Several pieces had to come together for this to happen, the biggest one being that Dalinar had to decide on a trip to the Spiritual Realm. Which, given how little interest he had in doing that before Cultivation prompted him, seems like an unlikely coincidence.

Unless delivering Gavinor to Odium was part of Cultivation’s plan.

 

Theory: I think Cultivation wanted Taravangian to pick Gavinor as his Champion, and arranged matters so that this would be possible.

Why would Cultivation care about this?

Because she wanted Dalinar to become the new Honor and be a check on Odium’s power, and that requires the Contest to go a certain way. If Odium’s Champion is a random Fused, Dalinar would plough ahead and fight without searching for a third option. Cultivation can’t let the Contest be simple. She needs the Contest to be the most difficult possible choice for Dalinar, to force him to find a way to Ascend.

So Cultivation pulled the strings for Gavinor to end up in the Spiritual Realm, predicting how Taravangian would use him, to give Dalinar a final push to become Honor.

[VirtuousTraveller]

I thought it was strange how we got the impression that Cultivation was a puppet master who helped orchestrate Taravangian becoming the new Odium, only to flee Roshar at the first possible opportunity.

I would like to think any master plans will be part of the back five, rather than “oh man Taravangian didn’t go along with my plans didn’t see that coming” and run away

[RedBlue]

16 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I thought it was strange how we got the impression that Cultivation was a puppet master who helped orchestrate Taravangian becoming the new Odium, only to flee Roshar at the first possible opportunity.

Cultivation did orchestrate Taravangian’s Ascension. That’s part of the text.

And she also played a role in Dalinar’s Ascension. That’s part of the text.

And yes, it backfired on her. She thought she could control the humans who were part of her schemes, thought she understood what they were capable of, but she underestimated them. She gambled and lost.

That doesn’t make her not a puppet master. 

[11thHerald]

50 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I thought it was strange how we got the impression that Cultivation was a puppet master who helped orchestrate Taravangian becoming the new Odium, only to flee Roshar at the first possible opportunity.

I would like to think any master plans will be part of the back five, rather than “oh man Taravangian didn’t go along with my plans didn’t see that coming” and run away

I did get the impression from Tanavast's POVs that Kor wanted to get off of Roshar so while she might not have intended the formation of Retribution I do think she wanted the compact to not leave to be broken so she could get out

[VirtuousTraveller]

25 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

That doesn’t make her not a puppet master. 

What I meant was it makes her an unsatisfying puppet master

Listening to some of the booktubers talk about their reactions, I was really struck by the idea that seeing behind the curtain knocks the mystery and power of the gods down a lot.  And that’s a narrative theme that we saw big time in WaT.

[Ahriman he/him]

7 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I was really struck by the idea that seeing behind the curtain knocks the mystery and power of the gods down a lot.  And that’s a narrative theme that we saw big time in WaT.

It's a huge thing. Tanavast was awful at being Honor! And Cultivation spent the whole time confused and scared of what she'd cultivated, so while I think she still has schemes (Lift), I think she also genuinely messed up big time. It's a little disappointing; I'd like to see some Shards doing well out there.

[Ewery1]

Crazy other thing that lends credence to this idea: Lift is the one who got Gav to be present for the perpendicularity collapse. Lift is ostensibly Cultivation’s tool…

[VirtuousTraveller]

With Cultivation leaving the system, but clearly leaving a ton of investiture on Roshar (and having touched Lift like she did Taravangian and Dalinar), I don’t know that we can say she’s a bad puppet master just yet.  We’ve seen her plans with Dalinar and Taravangian play out, but not Lift, and she’s too similar in the personal boon to not still be a part of whatever plans were in the works.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Well her plan A and plan B blew up in her face big time. For the sake of Roshar's eternal night, plan C (Lyft) had better be special. Probably not though, she has a tendency to be outclassed by the humans she picks. 

[MagicMaggot]

Let's just say I'd be very interested to see an "I, CULTIVATION, MOTHER OF THE WORLD"-sequence sooner or later...

I don't really think that she planned out the details for the Night of Sorrows. She probably saw a good chance Dalinar would end up with Honor (after which his predictability would probably go down), and she didn't really care that much about the contest otherwise. What we saw her do was mostly cultivating people of talent, which fits her Shard's intent. What we haven't really seen her do is puppeteering and micromanaging the world, even though she has capable forces to command on short notice, as we saw with Karbranth. 

Of course, with above-average divine precognition we can't really rule out some long-term 10D-chess-masterminding going on here, but let's be honest, the original vessels in general don't have a great track-record in their long-term planning (I guess Leras' plan kind of worked out, after controlling conditions for 1000s of years?), and are often dominated by their shards. So Cultivation being more preoccupied with cultivating her people and projects than ruling from the shadows seems like it would fit the pattern. And I don't think Gav was one of those. 

Also... that's not really where I'd personally like to see Cultivation's successes. While the menfolk were playing at war, cultivation had millenia of time to do her own things on Roshar without drawing much attention from anyone. She didn't make great power investments like Heralds or Unmade (except the Nightwatcher, I guess?), so she had plenty of power to spare without violating the agreement between the Rosharan shards. That's what I want to know more about. There shouldn't just be Lift or Taln left with her touch on them, but many people over time. Her meddling shouldn't just have started 10 years ago, when the war got ugly again, but should have shaped history.

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Let's just say I'd be very interested to see an "I, CULTIVATION, MOTHER OF THE WORLD"-sequence sooner or later...

I don't really think that she planned out the details for the Night of Sorrows. She probably saw a good chance Dalinar would end up with Honor (after which his predictability would probably go down), and she didn't really care that much about the contest otherwise. What we saw her do was mostly cultivating people of talent, which fits her Shard's intent. What we haven't really seen her do is puppeteering and micromanaging the world, even though she has capable forces to command on short notice, as we saw with Karbranth. 

Of course, with above-average divine precognition we can't really rule out some long-term 10D-chess-masterminding going on here, but let's be honest, the original vessels in general don't have a great track-record in their long-term planning (I guess Leras' plan kind of worked out, after controlling conditions for 1000s of years?), and are often dominated by their shards. So Cultivation being more preoccupied with cultivating her people and projects than ruling from the shadows seems like it would fit the pattern. And I don't think Gav was one of those. 

Also... that's not really where I'd personally like to see Cultivation's successes. While the menfolk were playing at war, cultivation had millenia of time to do her own things on Roshar without drawing much attention from anyone. She didn't make great power investments like Heralds or Unmade (except the Nightwatcher, I guess?), so she had plenty of power to spare without violating the agreement between the Rosharan shards. That's what I want to know more about. There shouldn't just be Lift or Taln left with her touch on them, but many people over time. Her meddling shouldn't just have started 10 years ago, when the war got ugly again, but should have shaped history.

Like, a revelation that the Sunmaker was touched by Cultivation would be sick. It would give the vibe that she really has been shaping the world.

[TheoreticalMagic]

I mean, I do think its worth noting that a lot of emphasis was placed on every character who referenced Cultivation post-Contest of Champions presenting their assumptions about her as fact. Hoid, etc....they all took it as a given that Cultivation fled the system in fear of what she'd unleashed, even using descriptors like that to sum up their view of her departure, but like.....we weren't actually given any kind of direct look at her leaving, any hint of her POV, or even the POV of anyone who had a front row seat to her leaving. 

And the more something is treated as a given in this series, without any kind of actual scenes SHOWING it to be so....the more I tend to expect there will be some kind of recontextualization later on, once we get a proper look at what Cultivation is up to now or the precise circumstances of her leaving, her reaction/mood at the time, stuff like that.

To be clear, I don't think that she's planned all of this out and everything's going exactly as she hoped. I do think at the very least, some of her big swings backfired or didn't go the way she wanted....she definitely gambled and I think she took some heavy losses....but I don't think she was ever expecting a perfect victory either. She strikes me very much as someone who's like "I'm open to the possibility that things have to get a lot worse before they can get better."

So I think none of this is IDEAL for her and not like, going according to her preferred outcomes, but I also don't think it was a complete wash for her and that she really just ran away with her tail tucked between her legs. I think we'll find out eventually that it was a tactical retreat but she did get some of what she wanted or laid the groundwork for her to still be in the game, come the second half of the series or whatever story focuses on the next place she turns up.

[Landis963 he/him]

It occurs that the last time we assumed that Cultivation was mourning and staying hands-off, a god died.  Perhaps this is similar, although I find it difficult to deny that Dalinar's actions (and Taravangian's before him) are a setback to the goal of "keep Odium bound."  Perhaps she'll recognize the subtle weak point Dalinar wove into Retribution.  

[CMac716]

I'm doing a re-read of the series with WaT in mind, a d the first conversation Szeth has with Taravangian is standing out to me.... like, what are the chances that Cultivation was a secret partner to Odium and the whole, Shard rampage has been her doing. 

 

“Why?” Szeth asked, voice hoarse. “Vengeance?”

“No.” Taravangian sounded very tired. “Some of those men you killed were my dear friends, Szeth-son-son-Vallano.”

“More insurance?” Szeth spat. “To keep yourself from suspicion?”

“In part. And in part because their deaths were necessary.”

“Why?” Szeth asked. “What could it possibly have served?”

“Stability. Those you killed were among the most powerful and influential men in Roshar.”

“How does that help stability?”

“Sometimes,” Taravangian said, “you must tear down a structure to build a new one with stronger walls.”

 

What is Vengeance but another name for Retribution? Then, imagine someone accusing Cultivation the way Szeth accuses Taravangian. I'm still on board the Cultivation is the secret BBEG train.

[Treamayne]

On 1/5/2025 at 5:27 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

I thought it was strange how we got the impression that Cultivation was a puppet master who helped orchestrate Taravangian becoming the new Odium, only to flee Roshar at the first possible opportunity.

I would like to think any master plans will be part of the back five, rather than “oh man Taravangian didn’t go along with my plans didn’t see that coming” and run away

What makes you think Cultivation "ran away" other than that being Taravangian's assessment of the situation? From the outside, it looks far more likely (to me) that she orchestrated all of this just to escape Roshar herself - which she told Tanavast she wanted to do very early in their time together there:

Spoiler

CH 100:

Quote

“TANAVAST,” SHE SAID, “WE WERE GOING TO FIND A PLACE UNINHABITED.”

I GAZED TOWARD HER, SAW HER ESSENCE … BUT ALSO HER FORM. IN HER HUMAN SHAPE—DRAGONS ALL HAD TWO—A WOMAN WITH BROWN SKIN AND LUSH PROPORTIONS.

“LOOK AT THEM, KOR,” I SAID. “SEE THEM.”

PEOPLE. FLEDGLING HUNTER-GATHERERS, OF CARAPACE SKIN AND SONGFUL HEARTS. THEY REMINDED ME OF MY OWN PEOPLE, WHO HAD BEEN SO PRIMITIVE COMPARED TO THE DRAGONS AND THEIR GREAT CIVILIZATION. ROSHARANS SANG SONGS INTO THE SKY, THE GROUND, AND THE NIGHT, WAITING FOR THEIR MAKER TO RETURN.

“WE CANNOT ABANDON THEM,” I WHISPERED. “WE ORPHANED THEM, KOR.”

“I DO NOT WISH TO BE A GOD,” SHE SAID.

Ch 120:

Quote

THE POWER THAT RAYSE HELD LOATHED BEING TRAPPED. I KNEW THAT THE POWER INSIDE KOR FELT SIMILARLY. IT HATED STAGNANCY.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[TheoreticalMagic]

I think a lot of Cultivation's actions look different if we imagine that given the fact she is much better at future sight than a lot of Shards....and her very Intent is about change over time....she viewed Odium's eventual release in SOME fashion as an inevitability. Nothing lasts forever - at least not with Preservation actively in the mix - and at some point after she and Tanavast stopped communicating, she could have very plausibly come to the belief that given how much Odium had already managed to weasel around Tanavast's initial ideas/intentions when binding him and find ways to erode his will and the weaken his bonds.....it was naive to imagine there wasn't a strong chance he'd somehow manage to get free despite their best efforts to contain him. Tanavast's best shot still ultimately just led to a war of attrition that yielded increasingly diminishing returns. With him/Honor no longer ACTIVELY in play, there was always only going to be so much Cultivation could do to counter Odium and keep him in check on her own. 

So from that lens, I look at a lot of what Cultivation did as possibly being more about her just trying to do damage control. She was like okay here's the situation at this point, let me see what I can salvage from it while trying to sneak a Hail Mary or two in there.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

What makes you think she "ran away" other than that being Taravangian's assessment of the situation?

Ishar, the Wind, the Sibling, Aux and even Shallan all stated that Cultivation fled, and the word "to flee" means to run away. The Wind even said she was fearful, just what Taravangian has said.

WaT ch 144:

Quote

“The Stormfather is dead,” Ishar whispered. “Dalinar Kholin has failed. Honor is being consumed … Retribution … his name is Retribution.” He blinked, concentrating. “Cultivation flees. Retribution will also consume and destroy the spren, then remake them to his will and pleasure.”
[...]
Yes, the Wind whispered. Dalinar Kholin is dead. Cultivation has been freed from the planet, and runs, fearful of what she has done.

WaT ch 145:

Quote

No, he shattered it all. The contract, Honor—all done. All dead. It’s … it’s brilliant. And terrible. The enemy holds both Shards and becomes Retribution. Cultivation flees. We …
Navani, we are in serious danger. This could destroy me.

WaT ch 147:

Quote

It had vanished when Cultivation had fled Roshar. Shallan stared at the hole for a long time, feeling unsettled—like many of the people who camped at its rim, waiting. She knew that … that she’d probably stay as well, for a time. Because there was a community here, and hope—frail hope.
[...]
“Ah, well, you see,” the highspren said—having far more familiar a tone than Sigzil had expected—“I can leave now! Any of us can. There are some in the caravan, even some windspren and other smaller ones. Cultivation fled, and it was her bond with Honor, and their agreement with Odium, that locked us here.”

 

While it is possible that Cultivation wanted to get out of Roshar, I am not convinced that she wanted Odium and Honor to be combined under this version of Taravangian. She worked too hard to persuade Taravangian to "do what is right" and even a part of Taravangian admitted he can do what she wanted and he should do it. Uniting Honor and Odium under Taravangian who was full of compassion and love might have been her goal and it might have resulted in her being safely released from Roshar, but for me it looks like what she got wasn't what she hoped for. WaT I-4:

Quote

“There is a chance, a solid one,” she said, “that you will do what is right. I would not have taken this step otherwise.”
“You are correct,” he agreed. “I will do what is right.”
“Do not be so smug,” she replied. “A part of you knows this path you’ve started on is a terrible one. Listen to that part of you. Give it a chance.”
And …
Despite himself, he did feel it. It was the part of Taravangian that loved his daughter and grandchildren. The part of him that had grieved when forced to manipulate Dalinar while trying to break up the coalition. It was the part of Taravangian that remembered being young, uncertain, dull—yearning to do more to help his people.
That was the Taravangian who had been given the chance to have anything he wanted, and had wished for the capacity to stop the coming calamity. In a moment, Taravangian felt as if … as if he were that same man he’d been long ago.
“Very well,” he said, turning from her. Not in shame—he would not accept that emotion now—but in … compromise. “I will try.”

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ishar, the Wind, the Sibling, Aux and even Shallan all stated that Cultivation fled, and the word "to flee" means to run away.

Copy all. I agree they all expressed that opinion. It is, however, opinion. When a Cultivation PoV says she fled (or a WoB) I'll beleive it, until then - unreliable narrator exists and it is an opinion, not a fact. I'm sorry.