The Shift in the Presentation of Mental Health

[Tacitus]

I agree that there's a lot of like, "positive vibes mental health love yourself" kind of tone and it's a bit sigh-inspiring, but I think a big reason for that is that Brandon can't afford to say something completely unsupported (whoopsies, there goes the mental health of thousands of people who put too much stock in the advice of a fantasy novel...) so all there is to do is to walk on the eggshells really lightly. So the odd writing is just the price of not making giant mistakes. It's a shame, but it turns out no one actually has the answers, so this is just the safer way to write mental health now that it's being confronted head-on in the series.

[Kenji]

On 1/3/2025 at 1:12 AM, boonboon said:

Great thread and analysis.
As an expert, what do you think about Sanderson trying to convince readers that forced Shallan/Adolin marriage is a good thing?
From my perspective, Shallan is portrayed as a girl with "daddy issues" (roughly). Clinging to Adolin, being reluctant about killing Mraize, because "yes, he's drinking and beating me threatened me and my family, but he's not so bad.", etc. And I know that, sometimes, meeting a good partner can help in healing childhood traumas, but I honestly don't see any of that in S/A scenes. Adolin looks much more like a "yes guy" than someone who really understands and accepts Shallan. 

Adolin is someone who legitimately cares and accepts Shallan for who she is and whatever she's done because she isn't a bad person. He understands she had reasons for what she did, and won't judge her over them. He's not just nodding an empty head and saying yes to her.

[boonboon]

11 minutes ago, Kenji said:

Adolin is someone who legitimately cares and accepts Shallan for who she is and whatever she's done because she isn't a bad person. He understands she had reasons for what she did, and won't judge her over them. He's not just nodding an empty head and saying yes to her.

but ao3 fanfics are not canon?

[yulerule]

I absolutely agree that the whole therapist plotline felt cringey to me. I was like. If this book was written 20, 30 years ago when mental health and all the other current discourses weren't so mainstream and constantly being talked about, would Brandon have written it differently? Would it have been more toned down? 

It definitely felt too on the nose reflective of the never-ending discussions in our society, and thus doesn't seem to fit neatly into what we've seen of Roshar previously.

[Kenji]

Alright, I'm going to preface this by saying I'm a fan of this book. That said, I'm not going to just defend everything about it blindly, but I'm going to go through the points in the original post and give my thoughts and honest feelings.

The first thing I'm going to say is I agree with a lot of people saying that this section:

On 1/2/2025 at 11:11 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

“How?”  Ishar repeated.  “What are you?”  He gestured toward Szeth.  “Are you…are you his spren?  His god?”

“No,” Kaladin said.  “I’m his therapist.”

Ishar blinked.  “…What is that?”

“I honestly have no idea,” Kaladin admitted.

really needed to be done differently. It pulled me out of the moment. I think he could have been brought back in and been so much more impactful if he'd said "I'm still learning that part." at the end, because he honestly is trying to learn. I feel like it would have been even better if Kaladin had said "I'm his friend." and was surprised to find that he meant those words. I feel like Brandon may have taken the "Kaladin Stormblessed: Action Therapist" meme too far.

Second thing: Kal is trying. I'm giving him credit for that, but is anyone really surprised at how bad he is at it at first? Does anyone remember how he tried to help Bridge Four at first? He was the worst kind of jerkwad drill sergeant at first and I would have hated him for it, maybe even tried to get him killed on a bridge run just because he was being so invasive. By the time Lopan and Dabbid came around, though, he'd mellowed out and gotten better. I think that's the kind of change we're going to see in him as a therapist in the next book.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:11 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

“We all need help sometimes," Kaladin said.  "Do you…sometimes feel overwhelmed?”

and

"I guess it’s like everything in life.  You have to find a balance."

and

“Maybe,” Kaladin said, “if what you’re doing isn’t working, you should try something different.”

Am I to understand these are bad things to say? Because I've heard each of them at least once from the mouth of a licensed therapist, to me, about my issues. Perhaps the reason these sound hollow or cliche is because you're too close to the subject for them to feel impactful? To someone who isn't a therapist maybe they sound like just good advice, because that's how it sounds to me, and none of them sound "too modern". Maybe they are copy-pasted from self-help books but almost everything that you can say has been said before; that doesn't make it pointless.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:11 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

Kaladin held tight as Syl popped up from behind Szeth and – grinning – gave Kaladin a double thumbs-up.  Was this what Wit had meant by being a therapist?  Kaladin supposed that once in a while, every person – even ruthless assassins – needed a hug.

Come on, this is just how Syl is. She's becoming more comfortable with being herself around him. Yes, it does feel like something straight out of a cartoon but that's how Syl, and a lot of other spren, are. I've got more of an issue with Pattern's "let's murder some folks" than this.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:11 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

I’m not being unfair - literally a quote from the book:

Quote

“When the wrong thoughts come in, you need to be ready.  Not only to rebuff them, but to present the right thoughts instead.”

Yes, it sounds like good advice to me. Is this not supposed to work? Is it just more complicated than this? I'm sure it is...but is this concept wrong? Again I feel like I've been told to do this exact thing. I'm confused as to whether this is just too on the nose for a fantasy novel or if it's actually wrong therapy. Can we decide whether we want things to be too accurate or risk being too abstracted from the real world concepts to be correct?

On 1/2/2025 at 11:11 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

Quote

Szeth remained silent, worried that if he responded, he would invite more lecturing. 

Unfortunately, Kaladin kept going.

Kaladin kept going, which is inspiring when that means he’s the spear that didn’t break, or when he’s the man standing up in the face of adversity…but it’s the worst when he's the one who won’t stop spitting out every therapy cliché in the book.

Yes, Kaladin gets preachy and annoying. This has happened before when he's tried to help people and it's also a common thing with him to stumble with his attempts to help. I don't think this is meant to be viewed as a good thing.

Overall, Kaladin's attempts aren't stellar, but if they were he'd be a Gary Stu. He's already a little too good at some things. I'm not fooled into thinking Ishar, Nale, or Szeth are cured or even mostly helped by him at the end of the book, but they might at least feel a bit better with him around or started on the road to recovery. Hopefully Szeth can continue walking that path, better without Nale and Aux around, and the Heralds can continue to get helped by Kal during their time away from Roshar. Hopefully Kal will get better at helping them as he goes, just like he did with Bridge Four, but we'll see how that pans out when he gets back in book six.

Kaladin's not great, but he's trying, and he's better than the Ardents or, perhaps just as bad, BetterHelp.

1 hour ago, boonboon said:

but ao3 fanfics are not canon?

What Fanfics? I don't know what you mean. I was talking about stuff that's actually in the books...I've actually never read a cosmere fanfic before.

[VirtuousTraveller]

2 hours ago, Kenji said:

Yes, it sounds like good advice to me. Is this not supposed to work? Is it just more complicated than this? I'm sure it is...but is this concept wrong? Again I feel like I've been told to do this exact thing. I'm confused as to whether this is just too on the nose for a fantasy novel or if it's actually wrong therapy. Can we decide whether we want things to be too accurate or risk being too abstracted from the real world concepts to be correct?

My preference would be for a storyline involving a wounded warrior turned healer learning to help others to be written that way, not as a gimmicky "the Herald of Second Chances you've invented therapy the world's first therapist" experience.  I don't disagree with most of the statements Kaladin says (and the idea of reframing and becoming aware of one's thoughts are concepts I frequently use when working with people) - in the book, they just read as a gimmick, written so the reader understands "HEY LOOK Kaladin is doing counseling DID YOU SEE IT" rather than something legitimate.

For comparison, Kaladin's journey at the start of Rhythm of War learning to help people locked away in the sanitarium came across FAR more genuine and in line with Kaladin's previous story and characterization and the universe the story takes place in.  I say that to say, I don't think it's impossible to include these kind of stories in fantasy worlds - it just can't break the immersion of the story.

To me, Kaladin's efforts with Szeth, Nale, and Ishar broke the immersion.  That doesn't discount the potential effectiveness of the strategies/vocabulary touched on in Kaladin's dialogue.  Some of these moments were less poorly written than others, but in general I felt the tone of the book was consistently immersion-breaking for me.

[MagicMaggot]

4 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

For comparison, Kaladin's journey at the start of Rhythm of War learning to help people locked away in the sanitarium came across FAR more genuine and in line with Kaladin's previous story and characterization and the universe the story takes place in. 

And while he set it up, he actually didn't have much of a role in leading that group, as far as I remember. He took them out of the dark, and put them together to talk, and he was interested in exploring what worked and what didn't. When the occupation of Urithiru came that instantly ended. And when the occupation ended, the 10-day-countdown began. So how much time did he have for his mental health project from his demotion to the occupation? 2 weeks? A month? It was a nice direction for him to go. And with a time gap of as little as a year or so it would make enough sense for Wit or Dalinar to think of him when thinking about dealing with broken heralds. But the timeline just doesn't work. 

[elihaun]

On 1/8/2025 at 1:50 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

My preference would be for a storyline involving a wounded warrior turned healer learning to help others to be written that way, not as a gimmicky "the Herald of Second Chances you've invented therapy the world's first therapist" experience.  I don't disagree with most of the statements Kaladin says (and the idea of reframing and becoming aware of one's thoughts are concepts I frequently use when working with people) - in the book, they just read as a gimmick, written so the reader understands "HEY LOOK Kaladin is doing counseling DID YOU SEE IT" rather than something legitimate.

For comparison, Kaladin's journey at the start of Rhythm of War learning to help people locked away in the sanitarium came across FAR more genuine and in line with Kaladin's previous story and characterization and the universe the story takes place in.  I say that to say, I don't think it's impossible to include these kind of stories in fantasy worlds - it just can't break the immersion of the story.

To me, Kaladin's efforts with Szeth, Nale, and Ishar broke the immersion.  That doesn't discount the potential effectiveness of the strategies/vocabulary touched on in Kaladin's dialogue.  Some of these moments were less poorly written than others, but in general I felt the tone of the book was consistently immersion-breaking for me.

I think a LARGE part of it is not (just) that kaladin is now a therapist.  It is that it is written as if kaladin has fixed himself.  In the last few chapters of RoW, (less than 24 hours before the start of this book) kaladin tried to kill himself.  He turned to rage and practically assassinated the pursuer.  He was death incarnate. And he flung himself off a building.

And then... He is magically better?  We never really got to see kaladin address all of that. We never got to see him working through what he tried to do, or see him address the rage and love of war/love of the martial power that he has for all of the books.  Im not a therapist myself, but I know that if someone tries to kill themself, you don't just ignore it.  you keep them under observations for a few days.  you have to help them, because even though they ended up not succeeding in ending it all, they will start to spiral when they think about the fact that they TRIED.  The book just never addressed it.

So in seeing Kaladin instantly start helping others -WE- are robbed of seeing the character we have come to know and love being helped.  That really makes his entire storyline feel hollow, because the kaladin we see is barely the kaladin we know

[Knuti]

1 hour ago, elihaun said:

I think a LARGE part of it is not (just) that kaladin is now a therapist.  It is that it is written as if kaladin has fixed himself.  In the last few chapters of RoW, (less than 24 hours before the start of this book) kaladin tried to kill himself.  He turned to rage and practically assassinated the pursuer.  He was death incarnate. And he flung himself off a building.

And then... He is magically better?  We never really got to see kaladin address all of that. We never got to see him working through what he tried to do, or see him address the rage and love of war/love of the martial power that he has for all of the books.  Im not a therapist myself, but I know that if someone tries to kill themself, you don't just ignore it.  you keep them under observations for a few days.  you have to help them, because even though they ended up not succeeding in ending it all, they will start to spiral when they think about the fact that they TRIED.  The book just never addressed it.

So in seeing Kaladin instantly start helping others -WE- are robbed of seeing the character we have come to know and love being helped.  That really makes his entire storyline feel hollow, because the kaladin we see is barely the kaladin we know

Sorry, but You are reading Kaladin wrong. His depression is not cured, not even affected. But after Tien's death he additionaly developed a neurotic compulsion to protect everyone possible regardless of anything else. The vision prior to his fourth oath meant, that he let go of Tien thus overcoming his neurosis (if I named this thing correct, I am no therapist either) and swear the fourth oath. So he is now able to enjoy life (tentatively) as seen in a certain beautiful scene.

[elihaun]

16 hours ago, Knuti said:

Sorry, but You are reading Kaladin wrong. His depression is not cured, not even affected. But after Tien's death he additionaly developed a neurotic compulsion to protect everyone possible regardless of anything else. The vision prior to his fourth oath meant, that he let go of Tien thus overcoming his neurosis (if I named this thing correct, I am no therapist either) and swear the fourth oath. So he is now able to enjoy life (tentatively) as seen in a certain beautiful scene.

I know he is not cured, but we don't really see him addressing it.  What I was saying is that the tone/internal dialogue we get from kallidin does not match up.  What I am talking about is the fact that you don't just wake up one day (quite literally the next day after a suicide attempt) 'able to enjoy life'.  I get what you are saying, but because we as an audience don't get to see kallidin addressing his issues in a realistic way, it does not fully feel like kaladin

[Knuti]

Well, I think I understand You better now. But is what You want really realistic? Is that what people do and are able to do after such experiences? Is it not far more realistic, that he works through his experiences with more distance in their SR-bubble? If I keep misunderstanding You, what is it specifically, that he should address?

Ok, we do not see him addressing it, but at the moment he wants to repress his ordeal. And repressing has its place in mental health too, at least if You are not called Shallan.

[elihaun]

1 hour ago, Knuti said:

Well, I think I understand You better now. But is what You want really realistic? Is that what people do and are able to do after such experiences? Is it not far more realistic, that he works through his experiences with more distance in their SR-bubble? If I keep misunderstanding You, what is it specifically, that he should address?

Ok, we do not see him addressing it, but at the moment he wants to repress his ordeal. And repressing has its place in mental health too, at least if You are not called Shallan.

No, I don't think realistic is what I want, but I do want it to be addressed.  and I do know that he is repressing it.  but the character does not FEEL like the one I know.  In mistborn , Vin grew and improved through the series, at no real point do I feel like vin ceased to be and new-vin appeared.  She still had her flaws.  Same for Kelsier, Breeze, Sazed, and spook (but spook did feel a little TOO different...). Same for Perrin, Rand-al-thor, Alcatraz, and even spensa.  Sanderson CAN have a character change and improve throughout a series. He has done it again and again (which is why I am on a fan site! I love the cosmere). I just feel that we did not SEE kaladin improve like we saw all of the others improve. we were told he improved

I will say this: I WANT him to be able to address it while in the SR-bubble, but to do so he needs it to be there for him to address it.  Instead of him becoming a herald to give people time and pause the war (something that I think the kaladin we know and love would do), he does it to help the heralds get better with their mental health (which felt WAY too rushed).  the end would have been the same, but it would have been more in line with what the Kallidin we know and love would have done.  the BONES of what was done was great! I just wish the meat was a bit more inline with the kaladin we love

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

I just feel like an aspect that many peopl eare overlooking here is that Roshar has a magic system (or had, anyway, up to this point) that includes self-progression ideals to help guardrail and prevent people from becoming too powerful and destroying the planet. 

To me, that is the in-world reason why there is so much emphasis on personal growth and development. That is why people are forced to confront their self-doubt, or their depression, or the way they lie to themselves about their past. If they don't confront those things, they will not progress on their path to gain more power/abilities and therefore be able to help contribute to saving the planet from an evil god.

Does Kaladin actually create perfect therapy and instantly heal people? No - actually I read it as someone who didn't really know what they were doing but was really trying and in a very clunky way was able to use lessons he had learned from this 'magical progression system' to help get others to recognize a few key issues that they have and need to change. 

As I saw it, all Kaladin's therapy sessions accomplished was getting these people to decide that they are going to try and do things differently. That they would be willing to start the journey of healing. He still has a lot of progress to make himself. Szeth is still pretty broken. Nale and Ishar got their Odium corruption purged and were forced to confront some realities they'd been ignoring. Plus let's remember that investiture/magic stuff does play a part in the both the damage and the healing, and it can help speed some of this up.

[Knuti]

 

53 minutes ago, elihaun said:

 

I will say this: I WANT him to be able to address it while in the SR-bubble, but to do so he needs it to be there for him to address it.  Instead of him becoming a herald to give people time and pause the war (something that I think the kaladin we know and love would do), he does it to help the heralds get better with their mental health (which felt WAY too rushed).  the end would have been the same, but it would have been more in line with what the Kallidin we know and love would have done.  the BONES of what was done was great! I just wish the meat was a bit more inline with the kaladin we love

Ok, that is something I understand. 

Let us compare Shallan. I am rather in it for her and she is a new woman now too. But I loved her for it, she is showing the competence that was always potentioally there. At the end of ROW it showed already, but I did not believe it. But that is all made possible, because Testament is a tangible personal obligation. Confronting her mother's death offered only loss and shame, helping Testament is a managable task and daunting never impressed her.

Kaladin though - his inner monologue is cringe, a actor playing therapist that does not know what he is doing, his therapeutical dialogue is cringy too. It is in-character though. When he does something, he does it with everything he is and has.  He only had success with Seth, because Ishar helped enormously with his stupid monastery quest and the gall of killing his family and sending them as undead against him. For the record: I do not think Seth is healed, Kaladin only helped him make decisions that put him out of harm's way.

No You are right. If I were in it for Kaladin, I would feel shortchanged.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, elihaun said:

Sanderson CAN have a character change and improve throughout a series. He has done it again and again (which is why I am on a fan site! I love the cosmere). I just feel that we did not SEE kaladin improve like we saw all of the others improve. we were told he improved

To put an example to this thought:

In WoK, Kaladin nearly jumps into the Honor Chasm. He reflects on that moment multiple times in WoK. And in WoR. At least once or twice in OB. Even more in RoW (to be expected when Odium is pushing your emotions like dominoes). 

However, I cannot recall a single time in WaT that Kaladin reflects:

Quote

Hey, I actually jumped from the top of the tower fully expecting to die. 

So, out of two known Suicide attempts, the time when he actually jumped gets no call-backs or reflection; but the time when he was stopped by Syl with the leaf gets repeated references. It just seemed "off" to me. 

Edited February 27, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 1/2/2025 at 11:11 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

As a mental health professional, I have been grappling with my reactions to Wind and Truth.  Up until this book, I have been incredibly amazed at how the stories told in the first three books of the Stormlight Archive present mental health challenges.  Even in Rhythm of War, the impact of The Dog and the Dragon is incredibly powerful.  They're immensely inspiring books, and that inspiration happens with this beautiful fantasy backdrop with compelling characters and plot lines.

Wind and Truth, in contrast to this, mashes together a bunch of generalizations/boilerplate wisdom about life and presents this as “therapy” – and not just any therapy, but newly invented first of its kind therapy that’s so effective that it heals a lifetime of intensely pervasive trauma in Szeth, thousands of years of trauma in Nale, and supernaturally-Odium Juice-fueled thousands of years of trauma in Ishar.  In less than 10 days (and in less than a few moments/exchanges for some of these characters).

I’ve seen some folks refer to this as “self-help book” content, or “Tik Tok/Instagram-level therapy,” but I want to present this more cohesively, because the criticism from my opinion is not wrong, but it also makes it too easy to dismiss as “haters gonna hate/Brandon writes his books to be accessible to a wider audience so of course it’s going to sound this way/his prose has always been basic etc etc etc.”

As an example, I think a core mental health message Wind and Truth is telling us it’s trying to deliver (yes, read that again because a lot of this content feels "preachy") is captured in the three rules Kaladin gives to Szeth (Chapter 66):

1. You are not a thing.
2. You get to choose.
3. You deserve to be happy.

I don’t think this message is executed clearly throughout the book however, and because it’s mixed in with SO MUCH other (air quotes) “mental health stuff” (and some downright eyeroll-level dialogue), it all landed as flat and cringey.

Here’s what I mean - this is a list of “mental health stuff” themes I found in reviewing the Kaladin-Szeth Shinovar plot line; there are others in other plot lines, but this illustrates what I’m reacting to:

• Let’s Just Talk about It (Find someone.  Talk. Grow. It’s worth the effort, all right?)
• Just Listen (this isn’t the part where you talk.  Just listen…)
• Eat Stew Together (the mythical power of stew)
• Seeing Someone Else Do It Helps Inspire Others to Do It (But stand. Kaladin. DID)
• Think Differently (Dark Brain/Warrior Thoughts)
• Life Isn’t Always Black and White (I believe a man can be both)
• Make Your Own Choices (Tell Your Own Story)
• Try Something Different (How is that working out for you?)
• It Might Not Fix It, But It Might Make It Better
• Your Past/Trauma Isn’t an Excuse, but an Explanation
• Don’t Give Up (You have to practice it every day)
• Don’t Be a Bully (This attitude you put on?  You think it makes you appear strong, but it doesn’t)
• Just Be Better (Do better – try to fix the problem)
• Perspective Makes a Difference (I find it so much easier from the air)
• Focus on the Now (We need to focus on the now)
• We All Need Help Sometimes (Sometimes even ruthless assassins need a hug)
• You are Not a Thing (You. Are. Not. A. Thing.)
• Self-Care is Important (You’ll do more good if you take care of yourself as well)
• How Do You Feel? (SO. MUCH. HOW DO YOU FEEL could a more cliché phrase be used)
• We’re The Same, You and I (I’ve had that same problem; I’ve felt the same)
• So much softly spoken whispering is exchanged in this book it warrants its own bullet point (that's what therapy is folks - whispering softly)

In addition to these mental health/healing fixes, there’s also deus ex machina magic (which isn't therapy, but it mostly performs the same function as this other stuff):

• Magical Flute and Wind Music
• 5^th Ideal Stormlight Darkness Push-Away Power
• Nightblood

Chapter 139 was the climax of this Kaladin helping Szeth plot line.  “Seeing someone else resist helped” was the mental health message that was impacting Szeth, Syl, and even Ishar – all as Kaladin resisted the darkness.  When Ishar asks “What are you?” Kaladin responds, “I’m just an old spear who wouldn’t break,” which is a great (and appropriate) callback to Kaladin’s confrontation with Amaram in Oathbringer.

A few lines later, though, Ishar again asks (for the second time in a few minutes of time) “What are you?” and this is where the moment – and this arc – falls apart for me.

The criticism this book gets for treating mental health differently than earlier Stormlight books is completely valid.  This book ditches any subtext or nuance or interwoven flashbacks that tie directly into the tension of the next chapter and replaces it with:

Seriously, in Chapter 66, as Szeth is openly weeping, embracing Kaladin in a full moment of complete brokenness, we get this cutesy little exchange:

Grinning.  Double thumbs-up.  Even ruthless assassins need hugs too guys.

If anyone draws strength to carry on through times of personal adversity from this book, that’s great (I guess - this book really didn't land for me).

But as someone who does actual mental health treatment with real human beings, this book felt very much like a surface level, light dusting of content snow of what dealing with trauma (or any adversity) actually looks like.  I don’t use the word cringey lightly – but that “I’m his therapist” exchange between Kaladin and Ishar will always overshadow all the cool cosmere lore we got in this book (mostly in the last 200 pages), at least in my mind.

That’s hard to say, especially because I know that Brandon is trying very hard to be genuine (and apparently had professional sensitivity readers sign off on this), but “I deserve peace.  I deserve to be happy.  I will let myself enjoy living.” "think good thoughts and don’t think bad thoughts" picture of what “therapy” is just lands hollow for me as a practitioner of this way of helping people.

I’m not being unfair - literally a quote from the book:

And Kaladin as a therapist?  Szeth introspected it best:

Kaladin kept going, which is inspiring when that means he’s the spear that didn’t break, or when he’s the man standing up in the face of adversity…but it’s the worst when he's the one who won’t stop spitting out every therapy cliché in the book.

AND that’s my cue to stop going, because this is a long post.

The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer will be books I recommend to anyone anywhere (and have had clients share that these books help inspire their own journey of recovery; they’ve certainly helped in my own journey).  Rhythm of War is fine if you’re ready to shift away from inspirational character story to more fantasy in the same universe (and has a couple inspirational moments peppered in there).

I sadly can’t say the same about Wind and Truth.

I think it's interesting that you see it this way, because one of my major problems with RoW and WaT is that it feels to me like they have switched emphasis from morality to therapy. One of my favorite things about the first three Stormlight books was that they were books where Honor and morality played a major part in the world and plotline, where the protagonists drew power from doing the right thing even when difficult and where we got to see moral lessons played out in a practical fashion. But with the more recent two books, it feels to me like Sanderson has shifted his focus away from Honor and morality to instead focus on mental health and therapy.

On 1/3/2025 at 1:12 AM, boonboon said:

Great thread and analysis.
As an expert, what do you think about Sanderson trying to convince readers that forced Shallan/Adolin marriage is a good thing?
From my perspective, Shallan is portrayed as a girl with "daddy issues" (roughly). Clinging to Adolin, being reluctant about killing Mraize, because "yes, he's drinking and beating me threatened me and my family, but he's not so bad.", etc. And I know that, sometimes, meeting a good partner can help in healing childhood traumas, but I honestly don't see any of that in S/A scenes. Adolin looks much more like a "yes guy" than someone who really understands and accepts Shallan. 

I'm curious why you think that the relationship was "forced"? Granted it started out as an arranged betrothal, but both Shallan and Adolin had plenty of opportunities to break it off if they had wanted to. I don't deny that Shallan and Adolin both have their issues, but based on everything I have seen of the two I think they genuinely love and care for each other.

[VirtuousTraveller]

15 hours ago, Aeshdan said:

I think it's interesting that you see it this way, because one of my major problems with RoW and WaT is that it feels to me like they have switched emphasis from morality to therapy. One of my favorite things about the first three Stormlight books was that they were books where Honor and morality played a major part in the world and plotline, where the protagonists drew power from doing the right thing even when difficult and where we got to see moral lessons played out in a practical fashion. But with the more recent two books, it feels to me like Sanderson has shifted his focus away from Honor and morality to instead focus on mental health and therapy.

What a great observation @Aeshdan - and one I agree with pretty full-heartedly.  I think a lot of it comes down to vocabulary, but even beyond words and syntax, the author's intent especially in WaT was "hey guys LOOK it's MENTAL HEALTH stuff DID YOU SEE." 

(I felt that same presence of the "author's intent" in The Lost Metal with all the cosmere crossover stuff - "hey guys LOOK it's a character FROM A DIFFERENT BOOK did you see")

Even though I can hear someone saying "Szeth faced a lot of moral dilemmas in WaT," I would also argue that the lens through which we as the audience are supposed to be experiencing these dilemmas is rooted in mental health instead.  The author's intent was we would experience the mental health stuff, and by golly that's what came across (cringing remembering the Book Quartermaster scene).

Mental health and morality are obviously intertwined in real life, and they should be intertwined effectively in quality literature.  Mental health adds rich context to moral dilemmas, but depth felt pretty shallow in the execution of WaT.  I feel like that mixture felt more organic in the first three books of The Stormlight Archive.

[arnau]

I don't know, it just felt like he read a couple of pop psychology books and was very excited to tell us about it, just like RoW felt like he read a couple of pop science books and was super excited to tell us all about how he knows how science works and the way scientists think, all the while falling flat on his face. And all of this compounded with the fact that his writing is completely inadequate for handling any sort of subtlety.

Edited March 18, 2025 by arnau

[Mattel]

Yeah I was also a little disappointed with how... simple and face-level his writing became in terms of how he handled therapy.

I was really impressed and loved the way that Sanderson did the "group therapy" in RoW, with the one armed man and finding others who were struggling. Honestly Rhythm of War is soooo good, and part of that was the complex themes that Sanderson had. Kaladin was struggling so hard, and every day was a steep, uphill climb for him, yet he always climbed. And he didn't want to, but he still did. And it started to crush him with the weight of it all. And yet good came out of it. When Lirin was talking with the one-armed-man in the Radiant Infirmary room, he says something along the lines of: Well we see him getting up. On some days you just don't want to get up. But he does it, so I think that I can too. 

This is the almost exact same message as: It was easier for Szeth and Nale to stand, because Kaladin did. Yet, even though these are almost the exact same theme, the one in RoW landed with me so much better. 

I think this all boils down to the exact same root as every other problem that I have with WaT. It felt rushed. It simply needed more time. I feel like Sanderson didn't have the time to give these themes the proper thought and time necessary for it to be good, or at least on a similar level as his previous books, and so he had to rush it. It does seem super unrealistic that a single song would make Nale remember everything about the person he used to be, and that he would suddenly repent. If this had happened in a book like Lord of the Rings, it would not have felt out of place. Fantasy books like Lord of the Rings have a certain undercurrent of there are magic things that happen that are unexplainable. But the Cosmere isn't like that. It is too... formulaic and structured for anyone to read what happened with Nale and say: this seems totally normal and could be chalked down to things of a legendary nature like this happen frequently in this story. And, Sanderson didn't try to present it as something extremely supernatural, he presented it as "this is therapy, where one action/word/phrase/or deed can erase anything that has ever caused harm." that's not how the world works.

I think another thing that caused so many other things to fall flat, is that Kaladin was generally on a down-ward spiraling exponential line, and then he when he reached his lowest moment, he rose and was healed. Now, he is spiraling upwards. This goodness and healing means that he will inevitably share it, this is something that is reasonable to expect and is something that happens in the real world. So because of this, is is starting to become boring when Kaladin does something supposedly great (i.e. and kaladin did stand), because Kaladin is becoming perfect. Kaladin is simply too good to be true (lol but srsly). If Kaladin reaches a point where he can always stand or get up on a hard day, then it loses the value it once had when it was a struggle, when it actually meant something because there was something else that he wanted more but he chose to do what was hard. 

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

 

On 1/4/2025 at 8:34 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

That's I think the crux of my criticism - I'm not the one trying to say Kaladin was "doing therapy" on Roshar - the book is.  It goes out of its way (and outside the established language, voice, and worldbuilding) to make it clear that Kaladin is "inventing therapy" and that Kaladin is not a spren or god, but a therapist.

This bugs me too, but because I am fond of history instead of psychology. I have taken a 101 level course on the matter and my mom had a bachelors in the topic, so I know the broad outlines of the science, but my real interest in having something like this in a fantasy book is to explore what Micheal Foucault's Madness and Civilization presents: how does the world go from one where being told by the spirit of the virgin Mary to rally the locals to take the holy land is something people believe in and will join in on that to one where we all agree that is crazy. I was especially interested in this because of how Zane and Vin's mother were both insane (lacking full moral agency due to a psychological condition) but that was in fact one of the creators of their world talking to them in order to bring about a coherent plan. It's a bad plan that involves killing basically everyone, but it is a plan.

On 3/16/2025 at 7:04 PM, Aeshdan said:

I think it's interesting that you see it this way, because one of my major problems with RoW and WaT is that it feels to me like they have switched emphasis from morality to therapy. One of my favorite things about the first three Stormlight books was that they were books where Honor and morality played a major part in the world and plotline, where the protagonists drew power from doing the right thing even when difficult and where we got to see moral lessons played out in a practical fashion. But with the more recent two books, it feels to me like Sanderson has shifted his focus away from Honor and morality to instead focus on mental health and therapy.

This is one of my problems with this too. I kind of had this idea that Roshar was a world that had a much more rules centered way of thinking due to the influence of the radiant oaths on society and culture, while Scandriel has a much more outcomes based way of thinking because Kelsier was the savior figure for so much of the population and I don't think he had ever met a rule he couldn't except himself from outside of being good to his friends.

I don't think I have ever seen a piece of media treat therapy better than The Sapranos, based on my own experiences with the practice. The way Tony in that refuses to become a less violent and horrible person, but instead uses therapy to make it easier for him to live with himself while being crap to his therapist, feels very real to me about how therapy works when applied to people who focus on being happy. 

I was thinking the whole time that Kaladin was trying to talk Szeth into being happy: No, Kaladin, Szeth should feel really bad about all of those people he murdered. He needs to feel bad about that because otherwise there's going to be nothing to stop him from engaging in systematic murder campaigns based on a personal sense of either satisfaction or righteousness. Nale is actually pretty fine with himself; his problems aren't mental health; they are ideological. The problem is that  no one in this story can commit to "I will feel as bad as I need to, such that I never kill again." because that basically means giving up on doing action scenes with cool magic blades. Well, except Dalinar I guess.